Why not try to help PUGs?

[t-darko]

So I can't find the thread, but I recall someone posted a question as to the best PvP match people had played. I've had a few, but my memory is bad enough that I rypically can't really recall enough details for a good story.

 

However... I just had what was one of my better PvP matches. Not because it was down to the wire or because we did spectacularly well, but I was in a Novarre Coast match with a bunch of other Republic PUGs that we managed to turn around from a pretty bad start.

 

Seeing as I tend not to trust other people to guard nodes, I headed east and set up to guard. Three other pubs came with me, and I mentioned that we didn't need four guards, but by the time they got the point, we were down 100%-70%. I asked the other two if they would guard and call incoming, so I could head south, and no response. Finally, one asked, "call incoming?" Not a great sign, but about that time they decided to head west. Another player complained about the group heading all the map again, and maybe it was the past two nights of "YOU GUYS ALL SUCK!" that I'd been reading in WZ chat, but I got tired of it and decided to give direction.

 

First, I pointed out that splitting our forces south and west would guarantee a loss. Then I asked everyone to zerg south. And you know what? Everyone listened! One guy came up to guard with me (I'm a lvl 15 sent, so rather squishy), but then headed west. I asked him to stop and head south, and he did. Eventually, we took south, and at 100% to 24%, we had two nodes. I asked everyone to forget west and hold south and east, called out incoming a few times after that (and each time, people came to help and we kept the node). At one point, the other team zerged east and one of the other players told everyone to "keep 2 south, everyone else east." And sure enough, we all did. The node was almost taken, but that's it; almost.

 

In the end, it was a marvel of cooperation and although I sucked (as I usually do), everyone worked together, as a team, and everyone listened to directions.

 

I know it's fashionable to bash noobs, tell everyone how much we all suck (and yeah, some of us definitely do), but we were all noobs once and we can actually get better. Screaming at everybody that they all suck and need to get better isn't going to do it, though.

 

First of all, I'd like to tell you how refreshing it is to read your post. Second, I think record of this kind reveals that there are a great deal of us who just wanna enjoy, learn and play together with other team oriented players in PVP.

Thirdly to get our PVP community to the point that good competitive PVP is something to strive fore, were you can give good opposition a; "GG" or give your nodeguarding coplayer who willingly lets his stats suffer for the greater good of the team a MVP vote, to get there, a post like this is necessary. Further more; To get our PVP community to grow more wz experiences like this is necessary.

And never tolerate someone whining "noobs" in opschat. Knowing your classrole is the key in PVP for personal success, but for the team to be successful, 'knowing your role' expands to the maturity of knowing that if you carry with you a greater knowledge then your teammates; Your role is to share that knowledge.

[olcraft]

If I see a guy who refuses to be saved even when he is drowning, I am not gonna bother saving his sorry ***. If he doesn't want help he deserves to die. I am not gonna waste my time educating idiots who mock and trash talk at me whenever i try to point out what they did wrong.

[XeniusX]

I would gladly explain to people where and what to do in a WZ if i believed that they wanted my help, but unfortunately that is almost never the case. Most of the times i try to help and explain fault in tactics etc. i get either no response at all (which is very normal) or bashing back, or the classic "less typing more fighting please". And after playing this game since beta i have lost the will to help people really, unless someone in chat asks: "What do i do in this WZ?", "i have never played pvp before" etc. Why can't people be more forthcoming?! . It will also make me ( i tend to get a bit mad at stupid people leaving bunker/node/whatever unguarded etc.) a LOT more understanding.

 

Before any WZ map starts there is an introduction to what the objective is in this particular match. If there are other things a newbie is wondering about, ask away please! But it is really your fault if you are not willing to learn, to ask other experienced people what to do or admit that you need help with something. If you were in the real world you would not go start up a car and go take a drive without learning how to operate it? sure you could probably drive but you didn't know about the gearing or the rules to follow on the road.

[Seireeni]

I've learned how wrong that is, though, and now routinely guard because I know I can usually do it well and that seems to be a pretty rare thing.

 

You remind me of myself a little over a year ago, when I first started pvping. As soon as I got confident enough, I did barely anything else than guarding with my stealthers. I thought that I was more useful that way, since I wasn't sure what "rotation" even was (I just hit the most powerful abilities/abilities that get some sort of procs or boosts from my skill tree whenever they were off cd), and if I was calling incs at our other node, the people who were better at killing the enemy could be where the enemy was and, well, kill them.

 

Did that with my non-stealthers too, but gave it up when I was solo-guarding with my mostly recruit geared sniper (before 2.0, pve gear was useless in pvp, so before you got war hero or elite war hero gear, which were like Obroan and Conqueror gear atm, you had to use recruit gear. The difference between a person with recruit gear and person with full elite war hero was pretty huge) and 2 shadows opened at me at the same time. Called incs ("e2") but got stunlocked to death in probably 4 or 5 gcds. After my death, I decided to let my team know what sort of attackers are at east ("There are 2 shadows at east atm"). And of course, a couple of people starting raging at me for "calling incs only after you're dead".

 

"q432111t west" is a nice change of pace, and few seconds after: "west lost"

instead of promoting tunnel vision on chat, alt+z and ctrl+u is a better advice if you have a higher stealth detection level

 

I don't quite understand your point. It's better to press chat, type "w2" and press enter than have "west inc " typed in, so you just have to press chat, type "2" and press enter?

[georgemattson]

I took the meaning of Cash's reply to be about the "approach" as in attitude or perception differences between PvE vs. PvP rather then the literal mechanics of kicking someone. Put another way, it is generally accepted that if someone keeps "screwing up" in PvE in the manner Cash described (didn't minimally research the fight, yet unwilling to take direction, and repeatedly wipes the group (causes loss), it is accepted it's *that guy* that is in the wrong and needs to change his ways. In PvP, by contrast, if the guy messing up the team and causing them to lose is addressed at all, it's the person conveying the information that's the bad guy, if that makes it more clear. I think the point is valid: why is the same behavior that would get someone dis-included from PvE, *expected* to be tolerated in PvP?

 

I completely understand, but I realize I wasn't clear. What's acceptable isn't the issue. What people can get away with is. If your performance is lacking (due to attitude, gear, or behavior) in PvE and there are consequences. The group you're with can do something about it. In PvP, there are no such consequences because the mechanics don't allow it.

 

Hence why there is a "double standard." The problem is (and the reason I disagreed with cash) that the double standard isn't on the part of the players. Rather, it's on Bioware's part. I highly doubt that players' behavior would change if the mechanics of PvE and PvP were identical.

 

 

I dont think it is accepted to be tolerated. Its just you have less options in pvp to "punish" the self entitled moron. In a pve ops, he gets kicked on titan 6 and gluck trying to find a group taking him to thrasher for his weekly when hes locked to a boss. In pvp, dont like it? kiss my *** and even if you kick me I just requeue and get another instant wz. Theres no detterant in pvp for negative behaviour or bad play the way there is in pve ops and I think thats why there is a difference.

 

^^ Exactly ^^

 

I don't know if this is something you've thought about doing when you're guarding....but if you already have your ops chat open with West/Grass etc... typed in....all you have to do is add a number and hit enter and there's your incoming call with 2 keystrokes instead of 4.

 

Yep. Definitely thought of that. Unfortunately (or fortunately, whichever), I tend to move about a lot while guarding. I'm the paranoid type, and I've had a few matches where I thought I was guarding well standing in one spot, only to find my node capped behind me because some stealther snuck around me.

 

 

First of all, I'd like to tell you how refreshing it is to read your post. Second, I think record of this kind reveals that there are a great deal of us who just wanna enjoy, learn and play together with other team oriented players in PVP.

Thirdly to get our PVP community to the point that good competitive PVP is something to strive fore, were you can give good opposition a; "GG" or give your nodeguarding coplayer who willingly lets his stats suffer for the greater good of the team a MVP vote, to get there, a post like this is necessary. Further more; To get our PVP community to grow more wz experiences like this is necessary.

And never tolerate someone whining "noobs" in opschat. Knowing your classrole is the key in PVP for personal success, but for the team to be successful, 'knowing your role' expands to the maturity of knowing that if you carry with you a greater knowledge then your teammates; Your role is to share that knowledge.

 

Thanks - it was actually Sangrar's excellent Share your greatest PvP Victory stories that got me thinking about this. It's a great read, if you haven't seen it yet.

[Sangrar]

If I see a guy who refuses to be saved even when he is drowning, I am not gonna bother saving his sorry ***. If he doesn't want help he deserves to die. I am not gonna waste my time educating idiots who mock and trash talk at me whenever i try to point out what they did wrong.

 

happens to me too in pvp, they just won't learn even if it means the difference between a victory or a loss.

[georgemattson]

You remind me of myself a little over a year ago, when I first started pvping. As soon as I got confident enough, I did barely anything else than guarding with my stealthers. I thought that I was more useful that way, since I wasn't sure what "rotation" even was (I just hit the most powerful abilities/abilities that get some sort of procs or boosts from my skill tree whenever they were off cd), and if I was calling incs at our other node, the people who were better at killing the enemy could be where the enemy was and, well, kill them.

 

Did that with my non-stealthers too, but gave it up when I was solo-guarding with my mostly recruit geared sniper (before 2.0, pve gear was useless in pvp, so before you got war hero or elite war hero gear, which were like Obroan and Conqueror gear atm, you had to use recruit gear. The difference between a person with recruit gear and person with full elite war hero was pretty huge) and 2 shadows opened at me at the same time. Called incs ("e2") but got stunlocked to death in probably 4 or 5 gcds. After my death, I decided to let my team know what sort of attackers are at east ("There are 2 shadows at east atm"). And of course, a couple of people starting raging at me for "calling incs only after you're dead".

 

Yeah, for what it's worth, I do seem to be getting better at some of this. My immediate button mashing "in your face" skills are getting better, and my overall awareness of the battlefield as a whole is definitely improving. Calling out incoming isn't anywhere near as much a challenge for me, and I tend to be pretty good at getting the warning off fairly quickly and can usually survive for a while (ACW is a notable exception, given how easily it is for a pair of stealthers to stun and kill you without recourse). Where I struggle at times is awareness of my immediate area (within about 30m, and especially within 10m), and I often find in a big free for all with a dozen people running around crazy that I can sometimes have a hard time tracking where my target went and often don't see or can't target the healer fast enough.

 

Then too, there's also the Leroy Jenkins effect. I always have to fight the urge to just rush any group of enemies I see, and as a sentinel, that's not a good idea.

[georgemattson]

I would gladly explain to people where and what to do in a WZ if i believed that they wanted my help, but unfortunately that is almost never the case. Most of the times i try to help and explain fault in tactics etc. i get either no response at all (which is very normal) or bashing back, or the classic "less typing more fighting please". And after playing this game since beta i have lost the will to help people really, unless someone in chat asks: "What do i do in this WZ?", "i have never played pvp before" etc. Why can't people be more forthcoming?! . It will also make me ( i tend to get a bit mad at stupid people leaving bunker/node/whatever unguarded etc.) a LOT more understanding.

 

Before any WZ map starts there is an introduction to what the objective is in this particular match. If there are other things a newbie is wondering about, ask away please! But it is really your fault if you are not willing to learn, to ask other experienced people what to do or admit that you need help with something. If you were in the real world you would not go start up a car and go take a drive without learning how to operate it? sure you could probably drive but you didn't know about the gearing or the rules to follow on the road.

 

Well, if it helps, I know I almost always (about 95% of the time) appreciate any kind of direction in a WZ and my preference is definitely to follow someone else's orders as opposed to giving my own. However, I don't always have time to type out a response. If I can, I'll type out "k" or "omw" when someone calls for help or asks people to go attack a node, but that doesn't happen all the time.

 

As for the lack of questions, I've noticed that kind of behavior isn't limited to SWTOR. I think people in general have been conditioned with the idea that asking questions is the best way to get criticized or laughed at. It takes a certain type of attitude to actually be willing to voluntarily admit you don't know something and I think some people erroneously think that ignorant = stupid. They forget that everyone was ignorant once. Heck, I face this all the time in my job as an IT manager; people constantly apologizing to me because they feel stupid for asking what they think is an obvious question. I always tell them that no one ever knows anything without asking the question at least once.

 

Unfortunately, I'd be willing to bet that most new players think exactly that way, though.

[Seireeni]

Yep. Definitely thought of that. Unfortunately (or fortunately, whichever), I tend to move about a lot while guarding. I'm the paranoid type, and I've had a few matches where I thought I was guarding well standing in one spot, only to find my node capped behind me because some stealther snuck around me.

 

Type i.e. "west inc" to chat then then press i.e. character sheet -icon. Now you can move around, but still have west inc typed ready. ^^

[georgemattson]

Type i.e. "west inc" to chat then then press i.e. character sheet -icon. Now you can move around, but still have west inc typed ready. ^^

 

Ah! Good idea I'll have to try that.

[cashogy_reborn]

If I see a guy who refuses to be saved even when he is drowning, I am not gonna bother saving his sorry ***. If he doesn't want help he deserves to die. I am not gonna waste my time educating idiots who mock and trash talk at me whenever i try to point out what they did wrong.

 

This.

[deedeede]

I don't quite understand your point. It's better to press chat, type "w2" and press enter than have "west inc " typed in, so you just have to press chat, type "2" and press enter?

 

Whats wrong with that message?

You wouldn’t go to help versus 432111 of the opposite faction?

 

Letting the joke aside, since most of a team has fun in a 6 versus 2, 3 or 4 of the enemy team somewhere else. you can have the same accuracy in typing calls for all the nodes, pylons, doors, turrets, whatever else, that covers a wz map. If you want to be excessively cautious put the node guard in your focus.

 

Call stealthies in accurate numbers yourself. Ever had one of those games where all the opponent team was stealthed? I had, and was hyllarious.

[Seireeni]

Letting the joke aside, since most of a team has fun in a 6 versus 2, 3 or 4 of the enemy team somewhere else. you can have the same accuracy in typing calls for all the nodes, pylons, doors, turrets, whatever else, that covers a wz map. If you want to be excessively cautious put the node guard in your focus.

 

I always have the node guard on my focus. ^^

 

Anyway, I think you're a little wrong - you can't always tell where everyone is. Even if 6 of your teammates are fighting 4 enemies at node x, you can't say where the other 4 are without i.e. seeing them. You can have an educated guess, and often that guess is right, but not always. Those 2 players might be on the other node, ready to beat up the solo guard. Or they may be waiting behind a spawn door. Trying to make their team regroup. Camping on their node. Ragequitted.

Not to mention, if I didn't have the node guard on focus, and the guard didn't call incs, we could have trouble with the fact that in some games, the enemy's node guard decides to risk it and try to get our natural node. And at least I have no ways of predicting if or when that happens.

 

Not to mention, in an average pug, I'm happy to have even 2 players being able to count the enemies and do the math and then realize, that we are doing 7 vs. 2 here and our solo guard might be in danger. To get the rest of the pugs to participate in defending your node, better call incs anyway.

[deedeede]

I always have the node guard on my focus. ^^

 

Anyway, I think you're a little wrong - you can't always tell where everyone is. Even if 6 of your teammates are fighting 4 enemies at node x, you can't say where the other 4 are without i.e. seeing them. You can have an educated guess, and often that guess is right, but not always. Those 2 players might be on the other node, ready to beat up the solo guard. Or they may be waiting behind a spawn door. Trying to make their team regroup. Camping on their node. Ragequitted.

Not to mention, if I didn't have the node guard on focus, and the guard didn't call incs, we could have trouble with the fact that in some games, the enemy's node guard decides to risk it and try to get our natural node. And at least I have no ways of predicting if or when that happens.

 

Not to mention, in an average pug, I'm happy to have even 2 players being able to count the enemies and do the math and then realize, that we are doing 7 vs. 2 here and our solo guard might be in danger. To get the rest of the pugs to participate in defending your node, better call incs anyway.

 

map is your friend

[Seireeni]

map is your friend

 

Map doesn't show you enemy players you are not in combat with. At least it didn't last time I checked.

[deedeede]

Map doesn't show you enemy players you are not in combat with. At least it didn't last time I checked.

 

your team mates dropping down in ops frame do, you really need so many details for a minigame?

in civil war you can view all the map from 2 high places, other maps have tunnels underground or other connection points, usually you pass there yourself

Edited November 10, 2013 by deedeede

[Seireeni]

your team mates dropping down in ops frame do, you really need so many details for a minigame?

in civil war you can view all the map from 2 high places, other maps have tunnels underground or other connection points, usually you pass there yourself

 

I start running to a solo guard when he starts taking damage, there's a high possibility he's dead and the node is capped when I get there. Especially if there are a lot of enemies attacking at that person. (The reason why solo guard is always a risk - enough stealthers opening at you at the same time and almost anyone dies.) Not to even mention if I only react when he dies.

 

I can't quite understand your "high place"-comment. Are you suggesting that instead of fighting the enemy, you should sit on some high spot so you can see where the enemy is?

[deedeede]

I start running to a solo guard when he starts taking damage, there's a high possibility he's dead and the node is capped when I get there. Especially if there are a lot of enemies attacking at that person. (The reason why solo guard is always a risk - enough stealthers opening at you at the same time and almost anyone dies.) Not to even mention if I only react when he dies.

 

I can't quite understand your "high place"-comment. Are you suggesting that instead of fighting the enemy, you should sit on some high spot so you can see where the enemy is?

 

I am not an english speaker, high places, are geographical like, higher altitude , close to east and west.

 

if you lost node, check the odds in getting it back or taking other one.

 

to fight and kill is not all it takes to win the games, unless is an arena, or unless is a spawncamp; do not spoil cc's, actually this should be called: keep the incoming cc, do not touch to break.

 

all comes with practice and common sense

Edited November 10, 2013 by deedeede

[XeniusX]

Well, if it helps, I know I almost always (about 95% of the time) appreciate any kind of direction in a WZ and my preference is definitely to follow someone else's orders as opposed to giving my own. However, I don't always have time to type out a response. If I can, I'll type out "k" or "omw" when someone calls for help or asks people to go attack a node, but that doesn't happen all the time.

 

As for the lack of questions, I've noticed that kind of behavior isn't limited to SWTOR. I think people in general have been conditioned with the idea that asking questions is the best way to get criticized or laughed at. It takes a certain type of attitude to actually be willing to voluntarily admit you don't know something and I think some people erroneously think that ignorant = stupid. They forget that everyone was ignorant once. Heck, I face this all the time in my job as an IT manager; people constantly apologizing to me because they feel stupid for asking what they think is an obvious question. I always tell them that no one ever knows anything without asking the question at least once.

 

Unfortunately, I'd be willing to bet that most new players think exactly that way, though.

 

Well as long as i see that someone is actually following "orders", or rather paying attention/learning, I'm pleased.

 

In regards to people not wanting to admit their shortcomings is actually weird to me, although i understand it in any aspect of the real world and the fear of being humiliated, but this is a game. you are anonymous, no one knows who you are, and a lot of people certainly wouldn't act the way they do in this game towards other people in real life ?! rudeness, snappiness, the general lack of manners are things the general population have no problem of showing. I would be much more embarrassed of these things then the lack of my knowledge of a game i just started. I do see your point however, and i suppose i agree, what other explanation could there be.

Pretty tired as i am writing this so sorry if anything is unclear.

[georgemattson]

Well as long as i see that someone is actually following "orders", or rather paying attention/learning, I'm pleased.

 

In regards to people not wanting to admit their shortcomings is actually weird to me, although i understand it in any aspect of the real world and the fear of being humiliated, but this is a game. you are anonymous, no one knows who you are, and a lot of people certainly wouldn't act the way they do in this game towards other people in real life ?! rudeness, snappiness, the general lack of manners are things the general population have no problem of showing. I would be much more embarrassed of these things then the lack of my knowledge of a game i just started. I do see your point however, and i suppose i agree, what other explanation could there be.

Pretty tired as i am writing this so sorry if anything is unclear.

 

Yeah, I find it rather puzzling as well, but I've noticed it's extremely common, and in fact I'd say that the person who isn't affected by what other people say online is very much the exception to the rule. It takes a person with both a fairly strong ego (not necessarily egotistical; just self confident) and a decent amount of optimism that someone might be helpful to see all the bile being spewed forth in chat and speak up, knowing that he or she may just be inviting a heaping amount of abuse. Either that or (like me) someone very comfortable with using their iggy button.

 

I would specualte that most players don't fit into either category, and that's why very few people ask for help. On the flip side, though, I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of players willing to listen to help is much larger than is appreciated.

[vennian]

On the flip side, though, I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of players willing to listen to help is much larger than is appreciated.

 

Fully agree. It's how you tell them that shows your PVP skill. Good leader vs bad leader and all that jazz.

[PhilD]

Not much I can say here that hasn't already been said, so I'll just share an anecdote: The other day I was on with my 55 DPS vanguard, and none of my guildies were free to PVP, so I solo queued. I got into a Huttball match which went south almost immediately, because it was clear nobody knew how to play. They players on my side probably never PVPed much before 55, leveled, figured they were now Ultimate Bad-A**es, and decided to start.

 

At one point we were down 4-0. I was behind the wall along with three other people. One of our team, had miraculously gotten the ball and reached the first set of catwalks towards the enemy goal line. Down in the pit near our side were two enemies with 1/2-3/4 health. The wall drops, I run for the ramp to get to our ball carrier . . . and the other four run out and jump straight into the pit to start deathmatching the two enemies. Our ball carrier has no protection and no place to pass, dies, and the other team quickly scores their next two goals for the 6-0 shutout.

 

Now, these guys who had run into the pit scored decent damage for a PUG match. Two of them near 600k. And I'm sure they saw the scoreboard, thought, "GOD I AM SUCH A BAD-A**," and couldn't figure out why we lost.

 

There's no helping people like that.

[Meer_]

If people in actual sense would listen I don't mind given them a full lengthy run down of pvp, from the game modes to the classes.

 

70% of the games I'm in, people do not listen, maybe they did but they refuse to act upon it. Just today enough, i keep telling a sorc to stick behind a pillar in orbital station because he got pulled in once by a vanguard already, we lost due to him, second time i thought he'd be wiser, still wanders around, gets pulled in again. I called his name out at least 10 times in the chat to ask him to come back. Even if he cannot read english, he should know something is terribly wrong having his name called out 10 times.

 

Another sore experience; I tell the people to kill the weak link in 4v4. Everyone ran around, no one tried to kill the target. There's even a sniper in the team trying to rebut when he's just shooting randomly.

 

There's so much more, people who doesn't call incs, and teams who doesn't respond to incs.

 

Tell me how do I help these people?

[mshester]

Not much I can say here that hasn't already been said, so I'll just share an anecdote: The other day I was on with my 55 DPS vanguard, and none of my guildies were free to PVP, so I solo queued. I got into a Huttball match which went south almost immediately, because it was clear nobody knew how to play. They players on my side probably never PVPed much before 55, leveled, figured they were now Ultimate Bad-A**es, and decided to start.

 

At one point we were down 4-0. I was behind the wall along with three other people. One of our team, had miraculously gotten the ball and reached the first set of catwalks towards the enemy goal line. Down in the pit near our side were two enemies with 1/2-3/4 health. The wall drops, I run for the ramp to get to our ball carrier . . . and the other four run out and jump straight into the pit to start deathmatching the two enemies. Our ball carrier has no protection and no place to pass, dies, and the other team quickly scores their next two goals for the 6-0 shutout.

 

Now, these guys who had run into the pit scored decent damage for a PUG match. Two of them near 600k. And I'm sure they saw the scoreboard, thought, "GOD I AM SUCH A BAD-A**," and couldn't figure out why we lost.

 

There's no helping people like that.

 

Maybe we should bang our collective drums a little more loudly concerning the idea of 'televising' matches on screens throughout the fleets. Not only does it hold entertainment value, but maybe, just maybe, a little educational value as well.

[General_Aldo]

How to help pugs:

 

1. They need to watch videos of (good) players playing their class. To learn the basic rotation and mechanics.

2. They need to listen when someone tries to offer them advice. (Can't tell you how many times I try and explain to someone how to min/max and about their rotation, and they end up ignoring it how cursing at me for this)

3. They need to know how to coordinate in warzones. (This implies focus target and reading ops chat and responding)

 

A majority of this can be fixed on their own terms. But most pugs don't want to take the time to examine themselves and will just blame a loss because of a premade, the person was hacking, or they got no life. However, if pugs could just see themselves in a negative light, they could improve overall and make regular warzones better for everyone.