The (Un)Official PVP venting thread.

[MusicRider]

While I do not agree with Nebdar that PvP here is GvG, there is no point in denying its a factor.

 

Rule 10 - Sticks

 

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26286

 

Never heard anyone to say that someone scored because of better stick. Actually, I have. Then the stick in question was taken for measurements to make sure its up to standard.

 

 

So no, PvP here is unlike FIFA. Using Brazil against the US? While completely nonsensical analogy in given context - Brazilian players have little to zero if any advantage over the US players when it comes to equipment, and what is called "skill" possibly "luck" determines who wins the match - the US can actually win a times which is not true in SWTOR PvP where one team has zero chance to win before match even begins.

 

This is not matter of opinion btw. Here gear matters, in FIFA it does not. Which one is true and which one is fake is matter of opinion, but they are not the same for a fact. That is not the only difference. In FIFA Brazil would not play random bunch from a beach, and if they would, it would be friendly, you know for .. fun.

 

Brazil in SWTOR .. amusing thought. PvP is garbage but the forum is good.

 

Poor brazilian and argentinian teams, they play barefooted. But anyway it doesnt take very long (a week with a couple of hours of play?) to get decently geared nowadays.

[Technohic]

I was talking about FIFA not EA FIFA. Gear advantage has no role in (true) competition, with some exceptions like F1 where its inevitable and part of competition. And even there, we know what happens when one team has significantly better car - boring race. Period.

 

Either way, I do not care about gear in SWTOR, though I think it retarded mechanic, as when in pug against skilled, experienced and organized premade it does not matter what kind of gear one has nor what one does. Such lack of balance, not gear differences, is what makes PvP here what I call garbage or joke.

 

It's kind of the MMO progression that is common. MMOs are always about getting gear, just a matter of how. I actually like this one better than some others in the past I have played where I can at least PvP to get it. Of course my favorite model is like SWG where it was crafted, but you still had to buy it, but I did not care for the PvEing for the jewelry bonuses toward the end.

 

Still; the best gear then could be expensive at times. Same with Ultima. Of course, guilds had more meaning as you might have a crafter in guild that would hook you up where as here, it takes so damned long for the gathering and crafting just waiting around and there isn't all that much that you need crafted. The time and creds dumped into it are high so thats why you have high prices.

 

Anyway; it is kind of getting off topic, although maybe we are venting about even with bolster, there still is a gear gap so bolster is even pointless as well as it is flawed. Screw you bolster!

[Baron_Samedi]

A retarded attitude like last nights one:

<Huttball starting>

Guy (vanguard): "If this is another reps vs reps, I am outahere"

Me: "Why? Considering how imps can be strong this time of night, this can be actually win."

Guy: "Cause I didn't sign up to kill my own fraction. This is just retarded."

Me: "Well... we are here because of objectives, not blind killing?"

Guy: "Speak for yourself, I am here for kills"

 

Retard was jumping in the middle, attacking some random TANK (I assume, cause he was onto Jugg). Pulled by another, who though he can co-kill, he was ravished WHOLE GAME. We were almost always 2 men short.

Lost, of course.

 

Its not Mara Smash, its not OP Heal, its not Kinetic Combat... Its Undenyable Retardism that destroys PVP here.

[DainjaMouz]

So, I'm a late arrival to NC--7 seconds left on the start counter--and I start scrambling to find my healers and anyone else I might want to focus target. At that point, I notice that NO-ONE IS ON THE SIDE DOOR (headed east). Before I could suggest that someone other than a Sniper (me) might want to go east, clock goes off and the smash monkey party goes running towards the southern node. In an effort to make sure we capture at least one node from the start, I head east to get the node. Luckily, the other team wasn't much smarter...no-one even bothered to probe east, so I spent 10 minutes cleaning the barrel of my rifle.

 

Seriously people, it doesn't take too long to figure out that WZs require some tactical thinking. It's not like PvE, where you go read a guide and then smash stuff.

[Technohic]

So, I'm a late arrival to NC--7 seconds left on the start counter--and I start scrambling to find my healers and anyone else I might want to focus target. At that point, I notice that NO-ONE IS ON THE SIDE DOOR (headed east). Before I could suggest that someone other than a Sniper (me) might want to go east, clock goes off and the smash monkey party goes running towards the southern node. In an effort to make sure we capture at least one node from the start, I head east to get the node. Luckily, the other team wasn't much smarter...no-one even bothered to probe east, so I spent 10 minutes cleaning the barrel of my rifle.

 

Seriously people, it doesn't take too long to figure out that WZs require some tactical thinking. It's not like PvE, where you go read a guide and then smash stuff.

 

Happens all the time when I am on my gunslinger. The irony is; when I am on my sin, there always seems to be at least 1 person who insists on heading to the node and guarding. Think maybe it has to do with no longer needing to win and having players that hope to just get through the match without doing anything.

 

Oh well. It becomes sort of a mini game to me trying to anticipate what weird **** my team is going to do and what weird **** the other team will do and come up with a plan to make the most of it and try to win.

[DainjaMouz]

i play WZ earn LOTs of credits... thats because i can't afford the augments.. pls send credits 10M as first rate

 

14 augment kits 90k*14=1260k

14 augments 120k*14= 1690k

so 2 miliion credits earned thanks to Pvping..yeah keep dreaming

 

Uh...you know you don't have to buy them all at once?

[DainjaMouz]

So many things but if I had to pick the big one I would say the targeting system. Nothing irks me more than having a character right there near you rather it is being attacked or doing the attacking and hitting tab and having it select a character that is nowhere near you.

 

An even bigger pain is the "Nearest Target" FAIL when you're getting pounded by some smash monkey, and you have to waste time mousing him instead.

[Siorac]

Uh...you know you don't have to buy them all at once?

 

He's right though, augmenting is horribly expensive. I have DPS gear, tank gear, PvP gear - augmenting all of them will cost something like 8 million. I'm already sick of doing dailies since returning to the game after a fairly long absence even though there are a lot of them.

 

If you don't do dailies but exclusively do PvP it will take effing forever to earn enough money. And if you like to play alts as well sometimes, you're screwed.

[L-RANDLE]

He's right though, augmenting is horribly expensive. I have DPS gear, tank gear, PvP gear - augmenting all of them will cost something like 8 million. I'm already sick of doing dailies since returning to the game after a fairly long absence even though there are a lot of them.

 

If you don't do dailies but exclusively do PvP it will take effing forever to earn enough money. And if you like to play alts as well sometimes, you're screwed.

No he isn't.. If you need all those sets, you should be crafting them. Force users should be Synthweaving, Tech users Armormech, combine that with Slicing, and the appropriate third skill. Run missions for mats cut that "cost" down by 2/3, and if you happen to have a Cybertech alt you can cut more money out by crafting droid parts for cheaper unit cost on augmentation slot component.

 

This is rocket surgery, this **** been out since April. People need to stop showing up with zero augments. Its not acceptable for the vast majority of endgame activities, where other players are involved.

Edited November 8, 2013 by L-RANDLE

[DainjaMouz]

If you don't do dailies but exclusively do PvP it will take effing forever to earn enough money. And if you like to play alts as well sometimes, you're screwed.

 

I get it...really, I do. It took me forever to kit out my Partisan gear, and then took me another six weeks of saving credits and eating bologna sandwiches to augment everything. Then, 2.4 dropped and I learned (classic n00b mistake) that you have to trade in your shells (with the augment slots) to upgrade to the new entry-level gear (i.e., Conqueror). I have just gotten back to having all my gear augmented on Conqueror (now using orange shells), and am starting to chase Obroan gear. NOT fun, and that's with my primary levelled in biochem and generating some GTN revenue.

 

Having said this, I don't have a problem with the gear grind. While not perfect, it at least gives you some sense of what players are putting effort into PvP (just like most skilled players in PvE would refuse to group any toon with less than 160-ish gear for S&V Hard Mode). However, I do think the incentive structure is out of whack, and based on the assumption that SWTOR players treat PvP as a "hobby" instead of a "career". The reward system should be more scalar, providing better incentives for players / teams as they move up the success ladder, instead of rewarding everyone for just showing up. And, it's consistent with the way in which PvP play is rewarded.

 

IMO, if you fixed the reward system for PvP play (and implemented cross-server WZs), the level of nonstop complaining about SWTOR PvP (e.g., premades, team imbalances, uncoordinated play, etc.) could be partially or completely resolved.

 

From a practical perspective, there are also shortcuts to credits. When the B/W dye kit went on sale on Cartel Market last week, I bought three and resold them on GTN for 350-400k credits each. That allowed me to finish augmenting gear and gave me a bit of a cushion for the next grind.

[sithBracer]

Yes, but this touches the very question of "fairness".

 

Is it fair to have an purely technical advantage over others ?

This has become a problem for Olympia as well, because people from some countries (Africa, South America, Asia) just aren't able to afford those suits or other tools that make them become faster, like for example these high-tech swim suits that are modelled after sharks' skin. Only rich countries are able to provide them.

 

It's not about fair or unfair. You take every advantage you can in order to win providing it is not against the rules and is legal. The world is not fair, get used to it. Those who are born into a good family with good genetics will usually do better than people who don't. That's life.

 

Anyway this doesn't seem like a conversation for the SWTOR PvP forum. Everyone has a chance to get augmented and to min/max their gear. If people are too lazy to do this, then they will probably lose and drag down their team. There is absolutely no excuse to come into a 55 wz without even 1 blue augment, none at all. You don't have to be completely augmented in purples, but please at least try to make a small effort. Like I said before being 56 main stat below a fully purple augmented enemy is better than 448 main stat below him.

 

On a more personal note, I think that augments should be negated and every gear piece should be bolstered to the maximum level so only skill matters. Rewards shouldn't be gear that gives you advantages, but PvP only vanity shells, titles, mounts, pets, dyes, mission unlocks (for your companions), money (in exchange for comms), relics and color crystals.

[Ridickilis]

People need to stop showing up with zero augments. Its not acceptable for the vast majority of endgame activities, where other players are involved.

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

I still think you're being a tad unrealistic here to demand that no one show up for 55 pvp without being fully augmented. Now if you mean just for ranked, then yes, I don't think people should go into ranked without full pvp gear plus augments. But for those who are casual (a couple hours a day/night), just returned after a long hiatus or whatever reasons (lame or otherwise), regular pvp is the place for 'less than optimal' gear. Isn't that basically the difference between doing story mode and hard/nightmare mode?

 

In a way, I kinda wish they'd bring back 8vs8 ranked just for this reason. Then you guys that are optimized can pick your team and not worry about getting stuck with someone less than optimized.

[Technohic]

On a more personal note, I think that augments should be negated and every gear piece should be bolstered to the maximum level so only skill matters. Rewards shouldn't be gear that gives you advantages, but PvP only vanity shells, titles, mounts, pets, dyes, mission unlocks (for your companions), money (in exchange for comms), relics and color crystals.

 

I would be ok with that to an extent, but I have the most fun when world PvP happens, even if it's not often. I would fear all that would do is make the most elite PvE gear the end all be all there.

[Ridickilis]

Perhaps a compromise (mostly @L-Randle but for anyone).

 

How about a gear-vote kick for ranked only. Make the minimum full Conq (as the arguments that ranked is the place to grind Oberon with arise otherwise) and all slots augmented with the MK9 + 55 aug. If someone doesn't meet this and a vote is initiated the player is automatically kicked, no questions asked (unlike the AFK kick where they can 'save themselves' with an action)

[sithBracer]

I still think you're being a tad unrealistic here to demand that no one show up for 55 pvp without being fully augmented.

 

Zero augments is not the same as fully augmented in purples. If you can't afford 14 purples then come with 4 blues and slowly work your way up. No one will harshly judge you. But coming in with no augments at all shows that you are lazy and don't care at all about your teammates.

 

Now if you mean just for ranked, then yes, I don't think people should go into ranked without full pvp gear plus augments. But for those who are casual (a couple hours a day/night), just returned after a long hiatus or whatever reasons (lame or otherwise), regular pvp is the place for 'less than optimal' gear. Isn't that basically the difference between doing story mode and hard/nightmare mode?

 

No it's not because everyone participates in regs for their weeklies and for non-arena wz fun. Thats the difference between hard/nightmare mode and reg wz. In SM ops you are required one set of gear as the enemies will never be stronger than that set, in reg wz you can have all different types of geared people. Although you can still provide a lot of help and be useful to your team in "less optimal gear", you are useless in crap gear. So like I said, you don't have to be fully augmented in purples, but try to come at least half augmented in blues. Honestly, it is not that expensive (definitely less than 1M and that's if you buy everything on GTN).

 

In a way, I kinda wish they'd bring back 8vs8 ranked just for this reason. Then you guys that are optimized can pick your team and not worry about getting stuck with someone less than optimized.

 

Wouldn't make a difference. 8 v 8 was usually guild vs guild that happened like once a week. People still need their weeklies and will still do regs.

 

Just stop being lazy and augment. You have NO EXCUSE to not have at least a few blues (each blue is 7-14k). Everyone complains about the cost yet I see them on a useless veractyl mount, a useless throne or wearing some procative gear that costs 400k on GTN. Stop wasting your money on useless garbage and augment.

[sithBracer]

Perhaps a compromise (mostly @L-Randle but for anyone).

 

There is no compromise. The way bioware set it up, either you augment, or you are farm bait for those who do. Arguing with us will not change anything-and bioware is almost definitely not going to change this. You will not be able to win against a fully augmented player if you have no augments at all. It's not something "Elitists" setup, that is the current PvP metagame. Either accept it and get with the program or get farmed. Some people are so lazy it's ridiculous.

[Ridickilis]

Zero augments is not the same as fully augmented in purples. If you can't afford 14 purples then come with 4 blues and slowly work your way up. No one will harshly judge you. But coming in with no augments at all shows that you are lazy and don't care at all about your teammates.

 

Just stop being lazy and augment. You have NO EXCUSE to not have at least a few blues (each blue is 7-14k). Everyone complains about the cost yet I see them on a useless veractyl mount, a useless throne or wearing some procative gear that costs 400k on GTN. Stop wasting your money on useless garbage and augment.

 

You seem like a nice enough guy but you're not listening. You're just repeating the same things over and over while calling people 'lazy' and assuming everyone is spending 400k on nonsense. I'M STILL DRIVING AROUND ON THE FREE VESPA FROM THE DIGITAL DELUXE EDITION FOR CHRIST SAKES.

 

I've NEVER ONCE had more than 200k at any one time on any toon because I've had to BUY GEAR as I've leveled up through pvp.

 

I haven't touched pvp in the past two night (2 hours a night, 4 hours total). I started and finished Corellia + my class story in that span. I had 50k credits when I started and have 280k now. That was 230k credits for 4 hours or tedious grinding.

 

So, sure, pve dalies give out more credits than planet quests but not everyone works fast. Someone (I think it was Tech) said he does Illum in 20 minutes. That one chain usually takes me about an hour or so. At most I've been able to do Illum + belsavis in one 2-3 hour sitting if I stay out of the pvp queue, never mind that I've never even seen Section X or The Black Hole yet.

 

Now tell me, how much again is one aug slot? 100k or so right (plus isn't there also an installation fee)? Two blue argument at 30k and I'm right back where I started. Oh but wait it gets better. Those two pieces I aug'ed I'm going to need to swap over the Conq mods into at, what, 10k apiece x 6 (for two pieces) so I'm still upside down in the credit game.

 

I mean I suppose I could go sell stacks of WZ medpacks (I'm sitting on 4 or 5) but that would still only net me what 300-500k depending on the market/who else is selling and at what price. Still not enough to get halfway there and now I'll have to use comms to replenish those.

 

I mean a typical night of staying in the pvp queue while trying to grind credits. Get to the first mission, pvp pops. Start killing 5 of the 30 so-and-so's, pvp pops. Get back, up to 15-30, pvp pops. Finally finish the first mission + bonus, pvp pops. There is an hour or so right there for a minuscule amount of credits.

 

But yes, please keep saying people are so lazy it's ridiculous. That's just great.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Ridickilis

[wigglebooty]

Roots and slows not having any effect on resolve period. Bunch of *********** monkeys balancing this game.

 

I agree and go one further. CC in this game is a joke, there is no reason every class needs multiple types of ccs. Give each class ONE and move on. Sorcs sages have 4 or 5 depending on the spec, I'm not saying they don't need them but let's balance the game around aspects other than multiple cc that do nothing but anger everyone but grief ers. They are a pain in the *** to maintain on offense and a frustration on the recieving end.

[DainjaMouz]

You seem like a nice enough guy but you're not listening.

 

Good Lord, this is turning into "Premades are Ruining Warzones, the Sequel".

 

While I appreciate your frustration (see my post above), it doesn't do you any good to go around saying "I reject the current model because it doesn't suit my style of gameplay." Lots of us have put up with the grind to get where we are. I'd love to be in fully augmented Obroan right now, but I'm not (halfway there). I don't think anyone who has made the personal investment to get thru the grind is really going to have an appreciation for someone who is, in essence, saying "I expect to play at your level, but I can't really be bothered to put in the effort to equip my toon to be competitive."

 

It'd be like a worker showing up at a jobsite and saying "I'm an awesome carpenter, but I can't be bothered to buy my own tools. Can I borrow some of yours?"

 

EDIT: For a case in point, see the post immediately below. VVV

Edited November 8, 2013 by DainjaMouz

[sithBracer]

But yes, please keep saying people are so lazy it's ridiculous. That's just great.

 

You're complaining about 1-2 hours a day for maybe 5 (or even 10) days to get blues and then scolding me for calling that lazy?

 

Want a real grind? Try having only 1 sorc healer in black hole gear right after 2.0 came out if you want a nice grind. Couldn't do 55hms unless I found a babysitter, forget ops, PvP was nothing but bugs, dailies for basic comms took forever and basic comms didn't even give great gear. Oh yeah and I only had 25k to my name. Come back and whine after doing section X, all of makeb and weeks of boring 50hm fps just to barely make 250k credits and them use them all for mk-6 augments + stim to barely get your main stat to 2400 just so you don't be a completely burden in a 55hm fp.

[Seireeni]

/Facepalm

This is why we need HP and valor checks, especially in ranked. You should be shipped to lowbie if that's the way you want to play, Mr. No-Augmentation Wearer...

 

You got five toons and can't craft all your stuff or are you just that lazy and inconsiderate?

 

Honey... I got 22 toons. And I don't do ranked. And it's miss, not mr.

 

4 of my 5 level 55s don't have a crafting skill. This is because they were leveled before I understood anything at all about crafting, and didn't bother with it. My sage has synthweaving, and yes, she could craft augments. But it would take time, and money, and tbh, I think it just would be way more trouble than it's worth. As I believe I already mentioned, I don't really enjoy endgame. My main reason to do absolutely anything with my level 55s is to get money, so I can buy something nice to the characters I'm still leveling.

 

Now, I just don't see the reason to waste time and money to augment the gear for my level 55s, when I use them so rarely. I would have to do a lot of boring stuff so I could do another boring things (=dailies) in better gear? Sorry, the pvp I do during those dailies isn't worth it.

 

Ironically, your comment on "getting shipped back to lowbie" isn't that stupid. One of the main things why I prefer leveling over endgame, is that in leveling, I don't have to do a lot of boring things in order to do things I enjoy. I can just do story quests, warzones and flashpoints in a row, nothing boring in between. Yay!

While in endgame, I have to do first use hours and hours to get better gear, before I can do something I enjoy at all (or I would have to, if I just listened to people like you). Now, sure, I do a couple of warzones while doing dailies, but I realize I'm a little handicapped by my lack of gear. But really, I'm doing those warzones to get a little break from the dailies, not to be the most awesome player with the most awesome stats at the end charts. And if that's not fine by you, then too bad for you.

 

I do sometimes feel people are just taking this game way too seriously. I get it if you don't want a person in level 45 greens to a ranked arena, I understand, but "do not enter a warzone before you have augments!"? Seriously. I'm starting to miss the old recruit gear. It was blue, so it couldn't be augmented, so people wouldn't have any reason to start whining if it wasn't augmented.

 

So call me lazy if you feel like it, but if the only reason I'm playing my level 55 is so I could buy a varactyl for my lowbie sentinel, I'm not going to use that money to buy augments instead.

[sithBracer]

So call me lazy if you feel like it, but if the only reason I'm playing my level 55 is so I could buy a varactyl for my lowbie sentinel, I'm not going to use that money to buy augments instead.

 

You have the right to buy whatever you want (it's your game), and people have the right to hate you because your laziness and selfishness in not doing the minimum forces them to play with a handicap when they are unlucky enough to end up on your team. Simply saying "it's just a game, you're taking it too seriously" is kind of a douchy way of wriggling out of doing the bare minimum to get ready to be a part of a team. Yes, it is just a game and no one expects you to be absolutely perfect in every step you make, but people do expect you to do the barest of all minimums and contribute if you choose to be part of their team.

 

If you don't have enough respect for your fellow teammate to buy a few blue augments and waste your money on a useless veractyl, then please just stay out of wzs. You are helping everyone by doing so. No one ends up on your team, you have more time to grind the money for your veractyl, and bioware might notice less people are PvPing because of the gear gap and might negate augments as part of PvP. We all win.

[Seireeni]

You have the right to buy whatever you want (it's your game), and people have the right to hate you because your laziness and selfishness in not doing the minimum forces them to play with a handicap when they are unlucky enough to end up on your team. Simply saying "it's just a game, you're taking it too seriously" is kind of a douchy way of wriggling out of doing the bare minimum to get ready to be a part of a team. Yes, it is just a game and no one expects you to be absolutely perfect in every step you make, but people do expect you to do the barest of all minimums and contribute if you choose to be part of their team.

 

If you don't have enough respect for your fellow teammate to buy a few blue augments and waste your money on a useless veractyl, then please just stay out of wzs. You are helping everyone by doing so. No one ends up on your team, you have more time to grind the money for your veractyl, and bioware might notice less people are PvPing because of the gear gap and might negate augments as part of PvP. We all win.

 

*Varactyl

 

The problem is, that there is no written "bare minimum" of gear when you can queue to a warzone. In pve, there is (though many people think even that gear isn't enough), but in pvp, there isn't even that. It used to be recruit gear (as far as I know), but nowadays, things are a little more complicated.

 

So, since there is a lack of official gear minimum, it's up to each player to decide what is the gear minimum of a warzone. To you, it clearly is "a few blue augments". To someone else, it might be "I'm wearing adaptive gear with all mods inside it", and to someone else, "I have at least x amount of hp", and to someone else, "I'm only wearing level 50 or higher level gear". So, what you are saying, is "there is no official gear minimum to queueing to warzones, and this is my idea of gear minimum. Everyone who disagrees with me is lazy, stupid or selfish.".

 

If the warzone quests start showing an official gear minimum which says "must have x augments" or something like that, I'll be happy to skip playing level 55 warzones at all. But it doesn't, and I won't. Because dailies are boring and I want to do something fun here and there while doing them.

[DainjaMouz]

If the warzone quests start showing an official gear minimum which says "must have x augments" or something like that, I'll be happy to skip playing level 55 warzones at all. But it doesn't, and I won't. Because dailies are boring and I want to do something fun here and there while doing them.

Loosely translated:

"I expect to play at your level, but I can't really be bothered to put in the effort to equip my toon to be competitive."

[Ridickilis]

It'd be like a worker showing up at a jobsite and saying "I'm an awesome carpenter, but I can't be bothered to buy my own tools. Can I borrow some of yours?"

 

Again, and to sithBracer as well, not a good analogy.

 

This is the pvp forums for pvp discussion and you're telling me the only way to pvp is to go pve.

 

I'm a carpenter but I can't fix your drywall because I need to do some masonry to get money in order to purchase the best carpentry tools.

 

So if you mean lazy as in I was too stupid to know that dedicating my time to pvp from levels 10-50 then 50-55 was fruitless, then yes, I guess I'm 'lazy'. Sorry if I misunderstood the concept of pvp and that I thought I'd have all the tool, equipment and knowledge of pvp by doing pvp.

 

But anyway I do agree this carousel is getting us nowhere fast.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Ridickilis