Sage Changes Brainstorming

[ArissArgile]

I just don't agree with people saying the force management is a problem. In playing a sage you learn when the best times are to use NS. The only times I have force problems are when the raid is learning a new NiM fight and once the raid learns to eliminate taking damage that is avoidable then the out of force problems go away. It also makes total sense that if a Sage stops to use multiple NS's that they do this at a point in time when the other healer or healers in the raid can cover them. If the other healers in the raid aren't the best and can't handle said sage spending 5-10 seconds NSing, that's not a reason to "buff" our class. It's also not the right idea to blow through the force bar and then start using NS. I use it throughout a fight even when I might have 80% force. That way you get much deeper into a fight before you may ever have force problems. I believe if a sage is having force management issues then the sage and/or raid is doing something wrong. I really don't mean to sound like a learn to play elitist, but I really think sages with force management issues need to learn to play more or their raid members do.

 

With that being said, the beauty of opinions is that we're all entitled to them!

[Yndras]

I just don't agree with people saying the force management is a problem. In playing a sage you learn when the best times are to use NS. The only times I have force problems are when the raid is learning a new NiM fight and once the raid learns to eliminate taking damage that is avoidable then the out of force problems go away. It also makes total sense that if a Sage stops to use multiple NS's that they do this at a point in time when the other healer or healers in the raid can cover them. If the other healers in the raid aren't the best and can't handle said sage spending 5-10 seconds NSing, that's not a reason to "buff" our class. It's also not the right idea to blow through the force bar and then start using NS. I use it throughout a fight even when I might have 80% force. That way you get much deeper into a fight before you may ever have force problems. I believe if a sage is having force management issues then the sage and/or raid is doing something wrong. I really don't mean to sound like a learn to play elitist, but I really think sages with force management issues need to learn to play more or their raid members do.

 

With that being said, the beauty of opinions is that we're all entitled to them!

 

I think its more a problem in pvp, no other class has the ability to help the opposition defeat you.

 

that said complete this sentance, if your out of force, and your low on health, your ........

Edited October 29, 2013 by Yndras

[dscount]

I just don't agree with people saying the force management is a problem. In playing a sage you learn when the best times are to use NS. The only times I have force problems are when the raid is learning a new NiM fight and once the raid learns to eliminate taking damage that is avoidable then the out of force problems go away. It also makes total sense that if a Sage stops to use multiple NS's that they do this at a point in time when the other healer or healers in the raid can cover them. If the other healers in the raid aren't the best and can't handle said sage spending 5-10 seconds NSing, that's not a reason to "buff" our class. It's also not :rak_02:the right idea to blow through the force bar and then start using NS. I use it throughout a fight even when I might have 80% force. That way you get much deeper into a fight before you may ever have force problems. I believe if a sage is having force management issues then the sage and/or raid is doing something wrong. I really don't mean to sound like a learn to play elitist, but I really think sages with force management issues need to learn to play more or their raid members do.

 

With that being said, the beauty of opinions is that we're all entitled to them!

 

First, congrats for standing up for what you believe. I totally get what you are saying about "When to Regen", etc.. Been there, Done that, and I agree with that approach. BUT... I'm one of many still standing up and saying "We have a regen issue!". I work with a LOT of RAID teams in guilds and work with a great many healers with different approachs to healing. Truth is I can heal with one hand on my OP and have to break a sweat on my Sorc (What's up with that?) and he is my MAIN.

 

I disagree with you and here is why: You are most likely a geared 78 toon running in a mostly 78 geared 16 man HM / NiM team that is pretty seasoned and very RAID aware. A MAJORITY of the players are not in that type of arrangement nor do they have "World first clear on 16 man HM/NiM" content either. I run with good teams (Progression) in several different guilds on Sage/Sorc toons, but they have learning curves like you mentioned. Running with a "Great Team" certaininly makes healing easier, but running with 16 man is even better with balanced healers. So you are at a slight advantage that most people don't enjoy while running mostly 8 man content. So yes from your perspective I agree we don't have a "REGEN ISSSUE" as the balance allows you to use REGEN correctly, but not everyone is in that position. I've been pulled in to backfill other very seasoned team healer positions on content and my healing was WAY EASIER on the same content. (Team does make the difference, not just L2P of your own skills)

 

So yes.. you do come across as an "ELITIST" telling people to L2P and I submit to you that the real KEY to Sage/Sorc healing is NOT L2P, but having a "Good team" to heal makes all the difference in the world. I refuse to accept a "L2P" comment as it really takes an entire team to L2P to make healing eaiser, but I would just like to have the ability to heal just as much as my respective counter parts (OP/SCD) healers. We do have a REGEN issue and we seriously have PVP survivability issues as well. I hate Sage/Sorc PVP and hated even running PVP to get BiS relics (EWH) back in the day, but I totally agree with those that do run PVP as I see the same view point. (We now have an even bigger "TARGET" in 4v4 on our back as we are easy to kill w/Light armor).

 

So I ask you this question: If Sage/Sorc Healers are SOOOOO.. OP.. why is Torparse New Operations HM Stat's for healers filled almost 95-98% of Operatives/Scoundrel Healers?

[Darth_Dreselus]

@ Ariss

 

Yes, the changes should be minimal, as not to take away from skill. On the other hand the HP loss is a significant detriment in PvP, which is why others and I have proposed limiting this HP loss (not getting rid of it though) or the addition of another Energy Mechanic (Commandos and Scoundrels have multiple ways of managing their Energy) to actually increase the skill level. After all the "Easy to play, hard to master" is not a bad philosophy when done right.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Darth_Dreselus

[dscount]

@ Ariss

 

Yes, the changes should be minimal, as not to take away from skill. On the other hand the HP loss is a significant detriment in PvP.

 

I agree with Dreselus as well. We should only make "Baby Steps" to correct Sage/Sorc Class in whole and nobody wants "OP" to happen, but at the same time everyone wants a FAIR PLAYING FIELD. Right now with light armor and lack of being the top 1-2% of the Sage/Sorc community our class will get owned everytime in 4v4 arena and less desirable in PVE Operations.

[NoFishing]

I believe if a sage is having force management issues then the sage and/or raid is doing something wrong.

 

I actually agree with everything you said. Which is why I don't really think we have a force management issue directly, at least not in PvE. We have a mechanic to get force back on demand, and tools to deal with the health cost of that. I'm just not 100% comfortable with the amount of time I spend on that cycle of tapping and healing myself. To be sure, it is far far FAR better than it was when we were nerfed so badly in 1.2 that I pretty much forgot my sage could even heal. I just think a couple of QoL-level changes (NOT BUFFS) to allow me to spend more time healing the raid, and a bit more durability, would be nice.

 

Just an an example, in at-level gear I remember dying several times to the Dread Guard in TfB when Ciphas would choose to leap/choke me just after I had sacrificed a couple of times. Sacrifice + light armor + random raid spike damage = can I get a combat rez? :-) But again, it isn't the sacrifice mechanic I object to specifically, I'd just like to have a bit of a chance to heal up after, which is why I think short, significant damage reduction attached to NS would be nice.

 

Now PvP is a completely different situation, where IMO the sacrifice mechanic has NO BUSINESS EVEN EXISTING. I just cannot even fathom how the idea of a player that is supposed to sacrifice their own health for energy is supposed to be competitive against players that can DPS or heal continually without running out of energy. I'd say in this environment, a damage reduction buff in trade of having to use sacrifice would be even more useful.

 

FYI, I've played an operative healer as well, and just find their energy management tools, and particularly their "uptime" on healing the party, to be quite a bit better.

Edited October 29, 2013 by NoFishing

[warstory]

we need something when force armor breaks, some type of active defense cooldown

[KeyboardNinja]

I'm with ariss on the Nobel Sac issue. I really don't think it's a problem in PvE. Now, we all know healers who burn down to their last Deliverance before pausing for a protracted period of time while they sac back up. That simply isn't how you play the class. Unless you're being really pressured, you should sac at least once per healing trance. If the pressure is enough that you don't have time, then still try to squeeze one or two in (don't spend it on salvation), but you better be absolutely sure that you'll have a predictable lull in the fight to regen.

 

In PvP, Sage healers definitely feel a lot more like they're just healing until they run out of mana, dying to regen and doing it again. Nobel Sac is a great mechanic in PvE, but horrifically crippling in PvP. It's very dangerous to life tap whenever someone is beating on you, and in PvP, that's basically all the time. Something really needs to be fixed in that department.

[Lockjaw]

Simple suggestion: Make Egress attainable lower in the healing skill tree, so a fully TK or Balance could actually attain the skill points if they choose.

[AdrianDmitruk]

I'm with ariss on the Nobel Sac issue. I really don't think it's a problem in PvE. Now, we all know healers who burn down to their last Deliverance before pausing for a protracted period of time while they sac back up. That simply isn't how you play the class. Unless you're being really pressured, you should sac at least once per healing trance. If the pressure is enough that you don't have time, then still try to squeeze one or two in (don't spend it on salvation), but you better be absolutely sure that you'll have a predictable lull in the fight to regen.

 

In PvP, Sage healers definitely feel a lot more like they're just healing until they run out of mana, dying to regen and doing it again. Nobel Sac is a great mechanic in PvE, but horrifically crippling in PvP. It's very dangerous to life tap whenever someone is beating on you, and in PvP, that's basically all the time. Something really needs to be fixed in that department.

 

Fix our PVP set bonus, and done!

 

I made a post that pretty much compiled my more important feedback since the H2F debacle in the Sorc mirror brainstorm thread; Laforet also made a really nice post there.

Edited October 29, 2013 by AdrianDmitruk

[Darth_Dreselus]

Fix our PVP set bonus, and done!

 

I made a post that pretty much compiled my more important feedback since the H2F debacle in the Sorc mirror brainstorm thread; Laforet also made a really nice post there.

 

Honestly that might very well be the ticket. Leave PvE as it is, but eliminate the problem from PvP. And nobody is going to take that over the PvE 2pc/4pc.

[PatT]

I have never weighed in on any of these threads, although I have been playing a Seer Sage since launch. She's still my main. One Sage (our best raid heals) went up against 3 scoundrel heals in parse and she couldn't touch any of them for EHPS (think Salvation) and she came in a sputtering last place in total HPS. The Seer class is seriously gimped compared to the Scoundrel. I've now got scoundrels leveling. Seer will become an unwanted stepchild in all raids unless the salvation is somehow crucial in a fight.

 

Regeneration of energy for a scoundrel is trivial, it certainly doesn't put your self-heal into cooldown...nor does it leave them vulnerable to a death by spike damage while being used. It's quite a bit riskier, and even if you do get the timing perfect, you aren't increasing your regen, you're just not eroding it any. And it still takes your health. Instead of spamming an otherwise useless heal to get it back up without putting yourself in peril like the scoundrel.

 

1. We don't have the HPS of Scooundrels, even measuring people at comparable levels. We definitely don't have the EHPS and are then frowned upon by raid leaders who go strictly by the numbers rather than the potential usefulness of the one heal we do have (salvation). In a single-target heal situation, all other classes have us beat by a country mile.

 

2. Our single-target heals are weak compared to all other heal classes

 

3. I have to choose between egress and other necessary skills, moving points a lot to get them back to other vital functions, when Egress should, I argue just be part of the spec.

 

4. Crit and alacrity are a fail for us, as they come at the expense of power. So they are basically not used past what comes from skill tree. All those promises about alacrity! Bah!

 

Sadly seer healing, is in the eyes of people who see us through our parses first and foremost, are not up to par...and we are being left behind for scoundrels. Many of us are rolling scoundrels. The cooldown on Rejuv is too long. You can spam heal your emergency medpac on people with no cooldown. I can't do that with rejuv.

 

This class got slashed in 1.2 and has never recovered. but as other classes get buffed, this one gets further and further from optimal, to the point it is being abandoned by many in favor or classes who have more to offer for fewer costs.

 

f.ex. heal the final section of TFB from a scoundrel and a sage. Have fun. the only real asset we bring isn't much use in that fight.

 

My .02 worth

 

Tatica

[AlrikFassbauer]

we need something when force armor breaks, some type of active defense cooldown

 

I have a completely different idea :

 

As I really don't want this Sage's lightsabre to be merely a "stat stick" (to me, this is just awful lore-wise),

I think it would be a good idea to lower the force costs of the double-strike, and add something to its damage.

 

With it, the Sage would still be able to "make them pay" when enemies decide that the Sage has to facetank them.

Plus, the lightsabre would cease being merely a "stat stick".

 

But - I fear that the developers would go into a completely different way and add more speed + time to the force speed ... which I personally wouldn't like at all, because I - personally - just hate running round as a Sage (remember that Benny Hill video ), and that it would still render the lightsabre into an "stat stick".

 

You can spam heal your emergency medpac on people with no cooldown. I can't do that with rejuv.

 

This design move never ceases to irritate me. I still believe that much of the prejudice about "Scouperatives" just comes from this talent.

 

Sages have only 1 cooldownless skill, and that's a small damaging skill.

 

Maybe the developers decided that damage = heal, because in the dd race, both are adding to bringing the enemy down (spamming heal because it heals the DD who does the actual damage, spamming dd, because that brings the enemy down, too).

 

But to my Sage it feels so wrong, somehow ... Okay, he's an Healer, as his primary role ... He imho should be able to have some kind of an low-cooldown, low-energy emergency heal like the spammable "Scouperatives" heal, too ... And the Mercenary would need it then, as well, just to be fair ...

 

 

And then this stupid "light armor" thing ... There's really NOTHING that balances it out - apart from force speed fleeing ... "Hey, why are you running away from the raid group ?`You are our Healer !"

 

Now PvP is a completely different situation, where IMO the sacrifice mechanic has NO BUSINESS EVEN EXISTING.

 

I think that I'd agree to that. I never use it in PvP, but the thought alone makes me think : "Nice ! He just lowered his own health so I can finish him up even faster !"

 

I just don't agree with people saying the force management is a problem. In playing a sage you learn when the best times are to use NS.

 

Then, please, tell me resonably, why do other classes have an so much easier way to be played ? Are there any logical reasons to that ?

Edited October 29, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Ycoga]

Telekinetics (the class needs 3 of the following four - you choose which ones you want to implement):

1. Make force armor break into an AOE stun instead of an AOEmezz

2. Give Barrier an AOE MEZZ effect (like force armour's is now) if it channels for the duration

3. Turbulence: knocks the target [2 to 6] metres back

4. Mental Alacrity provides immunity to interrupts and stuns for the duration of its effect

 

Seer (Making both of these changes would bring valuable force cost reductions as well as slightly improved survivability in general without adding distinct abilities)

1. Preservation:

From: 'Reduces the Force cost of Force Armor by [15 / 30] and reduces the duration of Force-imbalance by [1.5 / 3] seconds'

To: 'Reduces the force cost of healing abilities by [4 / 8%] and reduces the duration of force imbalance by [1.5 / 3] seconds'

 

2. Serenity:

From: 'Increases force Critical chance by [1 / 2%] and damage reduction by [1 / 2%]'

To: 'Increases force Critical chance by [1 / 2%] and damage reduction by [2 / 4%]'

Edited November 14, 2013 by Ycoga

[AdrianDmitruk]

Telekinetics (the class needs 3 of the following four - you choose which ones you want to implement):

...

4. Mental Alacrity provides immunity to interrupts for the duration of its effect

 

Mental Alacrity already provides interrupt immunity; did you mean to say pushback immunity and/or immunity to controlling effects (like Entrench)?

[Ycoga]

Mental Alacrity already provides interrupt immunity; did you mean to say pushback immunity and/or immunity to controlling effects (like Entrench)?

 

Thanks. Interrupts and stuns, I think I wanted to say. There should be at least one way to disrupt their casts. Pushback makes sense because they're not universally available like stuns are.

[warstory]

turn cloud mind into a temporary cloak

[warstory]

someone said knockback on turburlance i like that

 

10m knockback when target is in 6m range.

[Lockjaw]

Adding a creative idea for HEALING skill tree. (feel free to riff off of it)

 

I like to think of the Sage as a "preventative" healing class - preventing damage from coming (increased armor from rejuvinate and force armor as prime examples).

 

Is there something we could add to the tool set that is a longer CD (10 secs or up to a minutes, depending on the potancy) skill that would be a preventative damage skill that you could apply to yourself or an ally? This could work well for PvP (apply to self) or PvE (apply to a tank)?

 

Examples:

- Some type of stacks of "ward" (semi-similar to the shadow ward skill) that when applied, it provides a moderate reduction in the next X number of attacks (either a % reduction or a static number reduction)

 

- Applies "pre-heal" stacks/charges (X number of stacks/charges) - when that target gets attacked, immediatly after the attack hits, one stack/charge is consumed for a heal on the target.

 

Anyone else have any ideas that might align with these concepts?

[Retrochillee]

Free Ranged move for once!:

Every other ranged class has a resoure free move they can execute non-stop while moving.

Where is ours?

 

Re-Grant Insta Force Lift:

Others' have instant and aoe stuns. We should be allowed to at least spec into a single target lift.

 

Knockback distance increased:

Gunslilngers, Troopers, and Force Push all knock back at great distances.

Us squishies should be able to knock back at that distance as well.

 

Force Barrier buffed:

It should also heal a bit and reflect damage back to attackers as base effects and spec'd into.

 

Force speed buffed: (or changed to 'force hop')

If leapers get a free root attached to the leaps, our force speed should alteast not be interuptable (stunned or rooted in middle of the speed). It's not like you can stun a leaper halfway into the leap right?

I'd rather have a 10yard force hop in the direction that im moving (or to clicked redicle location) than to have crappy force speed.

OR:

Chage it to be like scoudral's scamper. Incrase for cost alot, and lower cooldown alot. or, incrase cost a ton and take away cooldown.

[Cleet_Xia]

#1 FIX the issues with other classes that forced the change to the DR curve for crit, and restore the DR to something more similar to what it was. So that sages can go back to arguing over whether or not the crit/surge or power/alacrity build are superior. These two gearing options should be close enough that the argument cannot be settled.

 

There are 3 changes I'd like to see made to the Sage specifically.

 

1. I would like to see Benevolence reworked with the following changes.

a) made into a .5 second cast that activates the GCD.

b) it's cost to be tripled and its benefit to be doubled (roughly).

c) it made to apply a lock out debuff to it's recipient.

 

It would become very difficult to interrupt, and resilient against pushback. This would leave the sage with an additional 1 second window of mobility in situations where this form of Benevolence would actually be useful. This would rework the ability into a true emergency heal, one that would be a hard choice to use, due to it's incredibly high cost & lock out ~ but still attractive to use because of it's very high HPCT.

 

The current version of Benevolence doesn't provide enough boost in HPCT to warrant its use in most situations. It's casting time isn't fast enough to be a legitimate option for healing sages when compaired to their other heals. And it's casting time while suffering pushback or interrupts, and low amount of healing provided, removes it as an option for DPS sages. If pushback or interrupts are not an issue, the ability is never used. This ability has very low utility to the AC as a whole after about level 25.

 

 

2. A proc added to force speed, that lasts for the duration of the speed buff. The proc will have at least 3 of the following effects.

a) while Force Speed is active Mind Crush is an instant cast.

b) while Force Speed is active Saber Strike has 100% chance to crit.

c) while Force Speed is active the damage done by Double Strike is increased by 100% or applies an armor debuff.

d) while Force Speed is active Tumult is enabled as an ability (yes...against players).

e) the proc would be consumed if Project is used, automatically finishing the CD on Project.

f) the proc would be consumed if Benevolence is used, casting Benevolence off the GCD.

 

In situations where we're not allowed to use our escape move to kite, at least let us have the option to fight back. This would also provide the class with access to a highly situational burst that could be used as a finisher.

 

 

3. A further 2% passive accuracy buff to the AC..... just to help put the "cannon" back into the squishiest of all glass cannons.

 

 

I don't expect sages, having the capacity to self heal, to have DPS parity with melee classes that cannot self heal. But the opportunity for sages to heal while engaged in 1v1 combat is negligible, and is a of reduced value when all classes have access to their out of combat healing. Sages should be required to kite in order to survive in 1v1, but if we can be barred the capacity to actually kite, we should have the ability to at least dps at a more similar rate to the melee classes for the duration of being rooted. Just to make 1v1 matches against some of the melee AC's & specs not so hilariously one sided.

[ArissArgile]

I stopped pvping what feels like ages ago, but I pvped enough in SWTOR to reach valor rank 90. I'll agree the NS mechanic is often brutal in pvp because you just can't afford the health loss when some classes can tear you up as it is. Maybe the talent that reduces the health loss by 4% should be more like 40%. I normally avoid commenting on pvp because I feel I've always been an average to good pvper and a top caliber pve player.

 

Something I can think of that could be added and would be beneficial in pvp and pve is some kind of cool down that, lets say, doubles our armor. As i said i prefer to refrain from talking about pvp because it's not my expertise, but it would be great in those situations in pve where us light armor wearers get rocked. I'm thinking of something like NiM Kephess on 16m where people have said his jump would kill them at full health and through their bubble. I guess we could also use force barrier for that, but I digress... I'm not sure right now where else an ability like that would help, but I would imagine the pvpers would really like a defensive cool down like that.

 

Maybe when we rejuv ourselves it can increase armor by 50% for 6 seconds and then drop to it's normal amount. That might be too op in pvp though.

Edited October 29, 2013 by ArissArgile

[SleepyKing]

So I'd like to see 2 small things: in addition to not degenerating force, I'd like to see resplendance also grant a buff that takes the next NS off the GCD. I'd be tempted to say resplendance itself should take NS off the GCD, but allowing us to use 3x NS instantly might be too much regen. I'd also like to see the use of NS grant seer sages a significant damage reduction for a very short period after using it, like 20-30% damage reduction for 3s, which is mostly to help us avoid being one-shot because we are using our energy regen mechanic.

 

I was going to suggest something very similar. The new hardmode and nightmare mode content often requires long periods of sustained high-intensity healing. That's why scoundrels are doing very well in it, while sages and troopers often struggle - scoundrels have a more forgiving energy mechanism for sustained healing. While I have no problem with the recovery method of sages, the need to burn GCDs on it (not just for Noble Sacrifice, but to recover the health lost by noble sacrifice, unless you're fortunate enough to be able to stand in your own salvation) creates a window where tanks may be receiving no heals and may be vulnerable to alpha strikes. As NoFishing said, it's not really about force, health or even rotational difficulty, but about time.

 

The obvious solution is to take Noble Sacrifice off the GCD. Since you probably can't have an infinitely spammable no-GCD ability, clearly there would have to be a trade-off. Perhaps a short cooldown on Noble Sacrifice would work, which would also force less experienced sages to learn how to use it properly (ie. as part of the rotation, rather than something you spam when you get low). Or as suggested above, you could tie it to Resplendence (my suggestion would be to add an ability to Resplendence that makes Noble Sacrifice activate with a 0.5 second cooldown).

 

Alternatively, you could make Noble Sacrifice "bigger." For example, whenever my self-heal comes up, I nearly always use two NSs, followed by the self heal - which works well, but is a few precious seconds when I'm not healing the tank. If Noble Sacrifice took more health and provided more force in a single GCD, then less time would be lost.

Edited October 29, 2013 by SleepyKing

[Zero_Unlimited]

PVP Changes:

1) Adjust weaken mind so that it doesn't break CC from Force Lift, Force Wake, and Kinetic Collapse, this will improve Telekinetic's survivability in pvp.

 

2) Increase the cooldown of Turbulence from 9 seconds to 12 seconds, and make it instant cast, this will allow Sages to actually use the ability in Arenas without it constantly getting interrupted. Do not decrease the damage done by this ability in the process.

 

3) Redesign the Jedi Resistance talent to instead give 15% (1 point) and 30% (2 points) of damage reduction from area attacks. Smash/Force Sweep does 9k damage to sages. It is not fair that they can reduce our overall health by almost 1/3 in one global cooldown. Reworking this talent will help Sages better perform against Rage/Focus which is the number 1 dps tree in pvp right now. This change will not be game breaking either, as sages will still be squishy (as intended) to all other attacks.

 

4) Finall, swap Psychic Suffusion with Egress in the healing tree. All sages, especially Telekinetics, should be able to use their Force Speed to escape. Currently Force Speed is a terrible escape tool, as it is so easily rooted by Force Charge, Obliterate, Leg Shot, etc, etc.

 

PVE Changes:

1) Take Force Mend and Force Armor off the Global Cooldown. This will benefit Telekinetics Sages dps in pve, as they do not have to waste valuable GCDs to heal/protect themselves, which decreases their dps.

 

2) Adjust the Concentration talent to reduce the pushback of Mind Crush. In almost all pve fights, when the Sage takes damage from the boss or from mechanics, this ability takes too long to cast, and the pushback is a significant dps loss.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Zero_Unlimited

[Felioats]

Give us a way of using our lightsabers. I don't care how.