Madness Dps in Arena, Fully Viable

[Xeraz]

The reason this thread has no value as they never really give any informative information regarding how they were able to overcome anything. They posted videos which did not show them in a good light in most cases the other teams were unfocused and the sorcs were able to face tank wins which I never saw that as having skill. The input they gave us was if you lose it's a L2P issue or your teams bad. They briefly mentioned they kite and dot and WW(that's why your viable?it's like I win games because I dot kite and whirlwind mmmk?) then in the video they are seen face tanking just wandering around the map randomly attacking players while not being attacked themselves even though they are the softest target in the game.

 

How is this not useful? You can watch my videos anytime- http://www.twitch.tv/matchlessglory/

 

These videos provide the best type of guide possible- actual application. Just by watching the videos you can notice positioning, what abilities are used when, what comps are successful, etc.

 

The primary point of this thread wasn't to teach people how to play. The primary purpose was to provide evidence that it IS viable, and to give people something to try out.

 

I already mentioned rating means nothing and why which was what they based Madness being fully viable off of. So really this thread was meant to balloon them up like something special when really it just shows they work the system and the video footage just highlighted that more.

 

Your prejudice blinds you. The truth is nothing I can do or provide will convince you that Madness is viable because YOU are not viable with it and you are conforming reality based upon the belief of "If I can't do it, then nobody can."

 

If I tell you it's viable in Group play- you will discredit the enemy team, or say I was carried, etc

If I tell you it's viable on the major pvp servers- you will discredit the pvp servers systematically

If I tell you it's viable when kiting- you will say kiting is impossible

If I tell you the instant damage and utility is great- you will counter that someone(some class) has it better

 

So, in short, this thread isn't for you at all. This thread is for people trying to succeed, not floundering in failure.

 

When other teams aren't focused and when you can face tank with a sorc and win the other teams aren't good at all. So i don't think it's a Bastion>POT5 thing it's just the Good Sorcs>Op thing.

 

If by, Op, you mean Operatives then I have no clue what you are talking about.

 

If by, Op, you mean Original Poster.. then I have nothing for you. I am clearly not qualified to provide advice or share my experiences with you. Be on your way.

 

In closing, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Edited December 14, 2013 by Xeraz

[Racter]

The extra funny part is the #1 and #3 teams from Bastion ran Madness or Madness hybrid sorcs on the Bastion, too lol

[Calogerus]

@ Op

 

I believe what our fellow Sorcerer's are trying to say is that... basically your wrong. I've seen your videos, you and your team have excellent skill no one should question that. However that being said there are no "viable" Sorcerer builds in any PvP situation. Now let us first examine "viable."

 

I am sure I speak for most of the PvP community when I say a "viable" spec is a talent system you can run in an arena or warzone that you can use in a situation you have built it for with a few utilities to make up for lack of damage or healing, a hot heal for damage based Sorcerer's would be an example. Now if we look at the "FOTM" (which by now I really just consider them the FOTG flavor of the game) you will notice the outrageous gap closers, stuns, instant high hit crits, dots, defensive cool downs so on and so forth. Examine the Sorcerer and you have basically the Dollar General version of what the other classes do.

 

I would like to think BW put some thought into our talent system but as it stands I cannot believe such a thing, however Eric has I believe for most of us restored some faith for those of us that are left that we will be fixed. However we are getting off subject. You say Madness is "viable" no offense but are you really serious? If we are to use your videos as credit to your words then you prove my and a lot of the other posters points... It is easy to shut us down we really don't hit very hard, not many escape tools to account for the stun and high damage and defensive output of the other classes. Now when you look at their instant damage vs ours, ours is so poor that really we pose no threat and are easily killed.

 

Your healers were amazing and kept the Sorc's alive plain and simple. Did it work for you? Judging by the videos of course it did how could it not with incompetent match ups against you and the skills of those heals. I apologize for the massive read but you cannot expect us to believe any Sorcerer spec is a "viable" arena choice. To put it simple we do not put out the damage to compensate how squishy we are nor have the right defensive tools to get ourselves out of a bad situation when our healer needs a break. Force speed and our "Put your hands up" cool down are not enough when being concentrated by one let alone multiple enemies with instant crits we either have to cast for or get lucky with death field. We being nothing to the table another classes does not already have in better form damage and defense. Let alone the CC other classes bring, as Sorcerer's we should all know to well there are to many CC options for other classes.

 

In conclusion,

 

If you even take away everything I posted and put it to the bare bones of the class, just because something works for the low percent does not mean the rest of the player base of that class should suffer because we do not have the friends to play with in arena. Throw skill level in there and it's just not fair the amount of work needed to be put into a great sorcerer to win against an "ok" player of the FOTG class.

[Laforet]

Madness is viable, you just need more effort than the regular melee train.

 

At this point a buff to madness (sorc) would make us OP at the current meta. I think they should just nerf melee skillfloor.

 

I said nerf skillfloor not defensives or damage. Smash mara and pyro pt are just too easy to play, and virtually unkitable. If bioware kept their efficiency ceiling while making them a little bit more unforgiving (like removing stupid obliterate out of roots every 10 seconds, giving smash an actual rotation and removing some of the perma slows / snares those classes have) the game would be moved into a very good direction IMHO.

 

Oh btw they should fix our energy regen, its retarded that sometimes we cant support because were out of fuel. That sucks.

 

Thing is when youre playing casually on your own in the warzones or the odd yolo q with not so sharpened gears and awareness you are bound to be trumped by melee hardcore. Problem is that 99% of the population plays like this.

 

Is their fault? No, everyone has the right to play the game on their own pace, this is just an option that has been removed from sorcs. If you want to be good with sorc you must go all in. Thats a sacrifice not everyone is willing to make, its also not fair to require it.

 

Bioware should fix the game by making melee harder (not weaker) to play. This way the balance would be kept as it is but new players would find it more enjoyable to pick the class and would not graviate towards LOLMARA PTROFLTECH so much.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Laforet

[AdmiralParmesan]

Madness is viable, you just need more effort than the regular melee train.

 

At this point a buff to madness (sorc) would make us OP at the current meta. I think they should just nerf melee skillfloor.

 

I said nerf skillfloor not defensives or damage. Smash mara and pyro pt are just too easy to play, and virtually unkitable. If bioware kept their efficiency ceiling while making them a little bit more unforgiving (like removing stupid obliterate out of roots every 10 seconds, giving smash an actual rotation and removing some of the perma slows / snares those classes have) the game would be moved into a very good direction IMHO.

 

Oh btw they should fix our energy regen, its retarded that sometimes we cant support because were out of fuel. That sucks.

 

Thing is when youre playing casually on your own in the warzones or the odd yolo q with not so sharpened gears and awareness you are bound to be trumped by melee hardcore. Problem is that 99% of the population plays like this.

 

Is their fault? No, everyone has the right to play the game on their own pace, this is just an option that has been removed from sorcs. If you want to be good with sorc you must go all in. Thats a sacrifice not everyone is willing to make, its also not fair to require it.

 

Bioware should fix the game by making melee harder (not weaker) to play. This way the balance would be kept as it is but new players would find it more enjoyable to pick the class and would not graviate towards LOLMARA PTROFLTECH so much.

 

I agree with this sentiment alot. Force management is one of the biggest things weighing us down. That and the amount of skill required just so that a sorc can be "considered" a choice in arena's is out of line with what other classes require. To a certain extent I am okay with this, but having some decent quality of life changes for all specs would be appreciated.

 

Personally I don't view full madness as optimal, but it is certainly viable if played to full potential.

[Ctrl-Alt-RAGE]

I would like to start out by saying I'm in no way shape of form a great PVP'er.

 

On a scale from 1-10 I'd say I'm a solid 6.

 

Since the creation of my sorc I spec'd him in Lightning and had an absolute blast playing him. PVE-wise he's very powerful and quite viable. PVP-wise he was a turret and would pretty much get shut down the moment he was targeted.

 

Now we fast forward to yesterday. I reached level 53 (level 54 now) and I decided to spec into Madness to give it a shot.

 

PVE-wise I was very disappointed in the damage output . (Keep in mind I was coming from a lightning spec and had absolutely no idea how to play a madness spec.) Eventually I started getting the hang of it and although I wasn't dishing out the same burst damage, my survivability went through the roof.

 

Now yesterday evening I decided to delve into the PVP area with the build and the first game or two I was god-awful. But once I learned how to play, I was playing better and surviving longer than I ever have as a sorc. In one game I had gotten MVP with the most damage, objectives, medals and kills.

 

The point I'm getting at is that yes, Sorcs DO need a little work done on them. But the thing about the Sorc is they are easy to play, but one of the hardest to master.

 

If you don't have a good tank/healer then yeah it can get a little difficult. But if you know how to play appropriately and adapt to the situation, you can still perform well.

 

The thing we sometimes forget is that a good tank and healer will win many games, but just because you don't have one doesn't mean you are going to perform horribly.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Ctrl-Alt-RAGE

[Devinia-Hex]

How is this not useful? You can watch my videos anytime- http://www.twitch.tv/matchlessglory/

 

These videos provide the best type of guide possible- actual application. Just by watching the videos you can notice positioning, what abilities are used when, what comps are successful, etc.

 

 

If I tell you it's viable in Group play- you will discredit the enemy team, or say I was carried, etc

If I tell you it's viable on the major pvp servers- you will discredit the pvp servers systematically

If I tell you it's viable when kiting- you will say kiting is impossible

If I tell you the instant damage and utility is great- you will counter that someone(some class) has it better

 

 

In closing, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

 

I gave credit to your heals and tank multiple times you didn't.

 

The Videos didn't show any good positioning it's arena your generally in LOS in all of the games some posters even mentioned Facetanking (this shows good healing/tank not good tactics) in multiple matches, I don't really see you kite at all in your arena games was I missing something? Your Instant Damage is great? That would be a lie. Death Field is an AOE which in general most classes have AOE 30% Damage Reduction Sin/Mara/PT/Vangaurd/guardian/jugg just to name a few in some cases when stunned they are taking -60%

 

 

So for example Vanguard/PT FOTM spec he hits you with Ion pulse reduces your damage output by 5% guts to snare you electrocute Death Field with dots rolling

 

Your Death Field would be reduced 65% dots for his stun timer would be reduced 35% (likely with hots up outhealing your dots ) with Ion pulse being up a majority of the time your damage would always be reduced 5% and any aoe would be reduced 35% if Ion Pulse was in effect. As mentioned the other classes also have the generic AOE reduction so your Instant Damage is a joke.

 

 

Utility you mentioned this before I could counter with just about every class in the game some having a much greater utility than others but most all having more then Sorc's in Madness Spec that you listed in your opening comment.

 

I think your right and if we did get buffs to be equal with other classes they would cry foul but that's only because we have been nerfed since 1.2 and most classes are used to that and wouldn't know what tto do if we had actual burst damage. It's not hard to get top damage ( I do this over 90% of my games) in warzones/arena's because most our damage is dot based and healable with hots as Operative/Scoundrel heals are popular these daysalso our dots were not being cleansed in the first place unless by other sorcs/sages (which no sorc/sage healers do arena).(buff to nerf gg)

[Ottoattack]

Is madness viable? Yes. The question is are they the optimal dps spec? And the answer is clearly no. Madness only counters smash and AP PT a bit, so if you run into a comp with dual smashers or 2-3 AP PTs, you could be able to counter them. But lets face it, any compositions that runs single target dps or ranged dps, equally geared and skilled will destroy you, which every composition currently runs at least one the above.

 

Excluding lightning sorc, every other ranged dps is stronger than madness in an open field. "Madness can dot then LOS," sure, and in the mean time their healer is free casting and healing their dps, and the dps will switch to atking your healer. And madness is one of the weaker specs against healers due to low burst and extremely heavy reliance on dots, that can be very easily healed through, not to mention instantly purged by ops healers. Add to that energy issues and in any prolonged battle (that never happens, right?) you are screwed.

 

Do not even get me started in WZs, at least in arenas the name of the game is survivability, which madness is decent at, but in WZs, you need a) burst b) strong aoe or c) strong single target damage for healers, where madness excels at non. Add to that most of madness defensive capabilities is heavily reliant on single enemy control, where in WZs there are much more enemy targets than in arenas.

 

Madness is better than a whole bunch of other spec, but pales in comparison to others. If I want to play a dot spec, I will play either lethality sniper or pyro tech. Both specs are significantly stronger than madness.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Devinia-Hex]

I guess the key word is viable can you use it yes? Will it beat less skilled and players with high skilled players yes will it beat equally skilled classes that do more damage have more utility no. Are other Damage over Time classes stronger yes. Where is it viable then? I don't agree with Madness being a counter for Smash. Smash can hit sorc sages for up to 10k that's a 1/3 of your hit points in most cases. They also have an execute ability a health buff and a number of other things force push, choke (if Jugg ) Armor Pen ...I mean come on.

 

If your at 60% 1 smash will drop you down to 30% and then execute to 0 in 2 globals you can't do that to them.

[Dkrewe]

So all of you trashing on Madness, do you also feel the 0/30/16 hybrid is equally useless in arena? Will be interesting hearing your responses.

[Racter]

All I'm reading is a bunch of terrible players whining at this point. Of the top 5 teams in the world, three of them are using sorcs. Clearly the class is fine and the problem is on your end. lol

[AdmiralParmesan]

So all of you trashing on Madness, do you also feel the 0/30/16 hybrid is equally useless in arena? Will be interesting hearing your responses.

 

Depends. In solo que I would say the 30/16 hybrid is just as good as madness, in some ways better due to the better force management.

 

When it comes to group play I would say it is slightly worse because a large amount of it's single target damage is also AOE and that can end up breaking CC. It also doesn't have any room for a quick cast whirlwind which renders whirlwind pretty much useless without polarity shift.

 

However 30/16 is very useful in the off-healing department, if you have a pt tank hybrid with good pressure and another good excellent dps I think it could work.

[Chemic_al]

If you don't have a good tank/healer then yeah it can get a little difficult. But if you know how to play appropriately and adapt to the situation, you can still perform well.

 

The thing we sometimes forget is that a good tank and healer will win many games, but just because you don't have one doesn't mean you are going to perform horribly.

 

Well, follow your own logic, if a good tank/healer is winning the game for you, then it becomes irrelevant which dps class you are. Thus your choice of dps, only becomes a factor in how hard they have to work and how long it takes to win. Madness sorc is hardly an optimal choice as it currently stands.

 

And actually, yes, without good tank and heals, a dps sorc is easy to kill indeed, you become a liability, not an asset to the team.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Chemic_al

[Cempa]

Depends. In solo que I would say the 30/16 hybrid is just as good as madness, in some ways better due to the better force management.

 

When it comes to group play I would say it is slightly worse because a large amount of it's single target damage is also AOE and that can end up breaking CC. It also doesn't have any room for a quick cast whirlwind which renders whirlwind pretty much useless without polarity shift.

 

However 30/16 is very useful in the off-healing department, if you have a pt tank hybrid with good pressure and another good excellent dps I think it could work.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZfoMrdRMfMzZf0cRsbz.3

 

Of course you can take the 2/2 lowering WW cast time in a hybrid. Last 2 points either in crit modifier or DoT dmg reduction is your call. Also 2 points in dmg reduction or Willpower again your call.

[Devinia-Hex]

Hybrid is the weakest of the weak as far as defensive cooldowns go they don't have the 30% reduction while stunned and would not have any self healing from dots they are mostly turrets with good force regen. Easy to shut down easy to kill with melee even with bubble stun. It's more of a warzone spec if you have a team with a healer. It can nuke all day and not run out of force however it is soft.

[Cempa]

Hybrid is the weakest of the weak as far as defensive cooldowns go they don't have the 30% reduction while stunned and would not have any self healing from dots they are mostly turrets with good force regen. Easy to shut down easy to kill with melee even with bubble stun. It's more of a warzone spec if you have a team with a healer. It can nuke all day and not run out of force however it is soft.

 

It is a random join WZ build, arena is another animal...but in WZ it is the highest survivability, self healing is meaningless do the math one or two heals do more healing and trickle healing is of no use in pvp. Hybrid is a royal pain to lock down and is good dmg due to staying alive with good mana.

 

As soon as the other team give up on me they let me free cast...

[Devinia-Hex]

It is a random join WZ build, arena is another animal...but in WZ it is the highest survivability, self healing is meaningless do the math one or two heals do more healing and trickle healing is of no use in pvp. Hybrid is a royal pain to lock down and is good dmg due to staying alive with good mana.

 

As soon as the other team give up on me they let me free cast...

 

Full Madness has the highest Survivability.

 

I have over 200k healing in most warzones it's far from meaningless. Think of it this way how many death fields do you use that hit more than 1 person ? How many crit dots would you get per warzone? even on the low end a sorc see's around mid 500's healing per crit dot this would also apply to each person hit by death field which has a max now of 5.. Each one heals you 2% of your total health. It's good not great but certainly one of the brighter spots in Madness.

[Aetideus]

So tell me how would double madness be viable vs 3 vanguards 1 running a hybrid shield/tactics tank/dps and the other two as tactics with a scoundrel healer?

 

 

Actually by kitting the sc healer the tank is finished with two madness. Hybrid tank average hp is 32k with no cleansing of the dots and no tanking gear and utils.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Aetideus

[Cempa]

Full Madness has the highest Survivability.

 

I have over 200k healing in most warzones it's far from meaningless. Think of it this way how many death fields do you use that hit more than 1 person ? How many crit dots would you get per warzone? even on the low end a sorc see's around mid 500's healing per crit dot this would also apply to each person hit by death field which has a max now of 5.. Each one heals you 2% of your total health. It's good not great but certainly one of the brighter spots in Madness.

 

I tried finding an old post from months ago on this forum with tons of math on it that pretty much negated parasitism in PvP due to it being trickle...also with simple math a single dark heal can hit for over 5k in 1.5sec -in any case this would lead to some math which I can't do now.

 

Also how much of your healing done is your own direct heals? I would love to read a post doing theory crafting about Parasitism...Now Devour is great for the cleanse immunity which can be achieved with just 1 point, right?

 

I can only comment on what I actually experience and Electric Binding+Bubble blind is the only way I can survive a good OP or Sin or Mara...

 

As Madness I can kite 1 person just fine, but if I am kiting one person inside a objective based PvP game something is very wrong! Hybrid allows for survival against teams..you know when a OP and Mara hit you together and them a warrior and PT play ping-pong with you?

 

I just got back into ToR after many months of WoW arena and the level of players here in general is quite forgiving so not sure how well my points will resonate.

 

In any case all these points have been discussed to death during the first 6 months of the game, yet they are still showing up again and again.

[Devinia-Hex]

I tried finding an old post from months ago on this forum with tons of math on it that pretty much negated parasitism in PvP due to it being trickle...also with simple math a single dark heal can hit for over 5k in 1.5sec -in any case this would lead to some math which I can't do now.

 

Also how much of your healing done is your own direct heals? I would love to read a post doing theory crafting about Parasitism...Now Devour is great for the cleanse immunity which can be achieved with just 1 point, right?

 

I can only comment on what I actually experience and Electric Binding+Bubble blind is the only way I can survive a good OP or Sin or Mara...

 

As Madness I can kite 1 person just fine, but if I am kiting one person inside a objective based PvP game something is very wrong! Hybrid allows for survival against teams..you know when a OP and Mara hit you together and them a warrior and PT play ping-pong with you?

 

I just got back into ToR after many months of WoW arena and the level of players here in general is quite forgiving so not sure how well my points will resonate.

 

In any case all these points have been discussed to death during the first 6 months of the game, yet they are still showing up again and again.

 

Death field only used to hit 3 targets long ago and also the talents have changed a Dark heal heals 4-5k and takes force. Force you need to do damage each tick is healing you around 580 (average not mine) hp per death field target plus crit dot plus the small amount from hte 2 piece force master set . If your using the bonus crit relic when that goes off you see a stream of healing. As Hybrid you have likely don't have reduction to periodic and you don't go high enough in Madness to get the key passive 30% reduction to damage while stunned.

 

That passive abilitiy is what helps you beat those dps op/sins. As hybrid you take full damage can be killed through heals and are overall soft. The only positive about hybrid is good force and decent damage if your left alone. If your hard casting heals as hybrd no one is trying to stop you because if they were you'd be dead. or about to be.

 

Also hybrid sucks against heavy armor becuase it's mostly energy based which armor reduces + expertise you'll never see any big crits on heavy armor and chain lightning has a base damage higher than death field and still hits the same or less. The only time you'll see a big hit is on an under geared sorc/sage and with bolster even that's rare now.

[Devinia-Hex]

Actually by kitting the sc healer the tank is finished with two madness. Hybrid tank average hp is 32k with no cleansing of the dots and no tanking gear and utils.

 

That sounds good but the sorcs would be the one needing the healer and they would be smothered3 pulls 3 stuns/plus aoe stuns, aoe damage reduction they have a total of 6 taunts 3 aoe 3 single target. Plus 2 high burst pulse cannons which snare per tick so even if you break one tick the next tick snares you.

 

They would focus one grip the other in double pulse cannon if the tank switches guard he is taking elemental damage from the pulse himself and the guarded sorc who would be getting hit by 2 pulse cannons the other sorc wouldn't have guard.

 

It's like TSG they work one pull burst aoe. The sorcs tank would actually be the one dying and much quicker becuase pulse cannon and ion pulse and gut all hit harder then the sorcs dots and the VG's have enough snares and cooldowns to be unsnareable to stay on a sorc and smother them. Even ithe sorc is a master at kiting (which could get him out of position of his own healer) they have 3 grips to pull anyone of the enemy team to them.

 

Without the sorc being stunned which any good VG/PT would know they take full damage minus 2% passive reduction through talents with light armor(weakest in the game) they have 0 reduction to Elemental Damage.

As much as you want to say well they can't cleanse dots, they can kite, they can cc, the simply fact is they can't vs a good team and they can be smothered and their effectiveness can be shut down, they are soft, and can be burnt down through guard and heals.

 

You guys who are deabting this are looking at perfect played sorcs vs average other classes not exceptional vs exceptional.

 

If something is fully viable you don't have to make a thread saying it is, people know it is. You don't see other classes having to say they're viable in Arena. Plus as I've mentioned before you play who's in the queue at the time you are playing. Good, bad average, or your guildmates who are there to feed your rating. So until there is cros server pvp it's really pointless to debate what is viable and what isn't. When you have a true top 20 game wide you will see how well sorcs do and how many per team are being used vs other make ups.

 

Right now your win loss depends on who your facing at the time you queue and that could be anyone from very good people you can't beat bads that you beat over and over or your friends who are win trading on alts for you.

 

None of the videos show me anything exception that I don't see doing warzone 4v4 against random make up's. I see better footage actually in warzones then most 4v4 arena better play people surviving a lot of pressure etc.

 

I'm still not sure why people respond to this thread it's pretty clear the class is not on par with other classes at the high level. Just because we have a handfull of good sorcs and it's easy to play smash/PT etc that just shows others can play easy class and compete because their classes are viable based on the balance of the game. The same average smashers and PT's who play FOTM can not play sorcs that way because they wouldn't have the same success. Even if these guys are great sorcs a great sorc will not beat other great teams because we are not as balanced as they are or unbalanced however you want to look at it. We're outplaying others to look good but we have to play at a very high level and make very few mistakes to pull that off where other classes don't have to be.

 

If the players that are great now got buffed people would think we are OP because they are used to us being so lack luster for so long. But the truth would be that the playing field would be even.

[Cempa]

Deleted Edited December 27, 2013 by Cempa

[BlissDivine]

I liked the Glory vs. Turrican one on ones. . . was interesting.