The REAL Most Powerful Sith Lightsaber Duelists

[Aurbere]

Back on topic. Just put Kas'im at #7. We all know that's going to happen anyway, may as well just do it so we can move on.

[Beniboybling]

Back on topic. Just put Kas'im at #7. We all know that's going to happen anyway, may as well just do it so we can move on.

Now now, let's put on a smile for our favourite character.

[Aurbere]

Now that's out of the way I say we just vote.

 

We've got me and Beni arguing for Traya, Tunewalker and him arguing for Malgus, and most of the others seemed to say they're indifferent...

 

VOTE NOW

 

Malgus for the lulz.

 

But seriously, I don't really care. I haven't really seen a convincing argument from either side.

[Beniboybling]

Malgus for the lulz.

 

But seriously, I don't really care. I haven't really seen a convincing argument from either side.

Well ultimately I feel the fact that Traya is so much more powerful than Sion, powerful Sith Lord in his own rights, proves she has a whole lot of raw power.

 

And really the edge Malgus recieved was for that reason, Traya claimed superiority over Control and Sense but Malgus had rawer displays. However I feel dominating Sion and the Jedi High Council at least puts her on par with Malgus' domination feats or other Jedi - which swings the pendulum in her favour.

[Aurbere]

Well ultimately I feel the fact that Traya is so much more powerful than Sion, powerful Sith Lord in his own rights, proves she has a whole lot of raw power.

 

And really the edge Malgus recieved was for that reason, Traya claimed superiority over Control and Sense but Malgus had rawer displays. However I feel dominating Sion and the Jedi High Council at least puts her on par with Malgus' domination feats or other Jedi - which swings the pendulum in her favour.

 

Well, I still have my doubts about such things, but I would be fine with them being switched.

[Makoto_Shishio]

Sorry Tune... I have to.

 

Implies it's a useless argument, when it was perfectly rational and applicable to the debate

 

...

 

Indirectly insulting us for using an actual canon argument.

 

I like this one. Beni replied with "Check the info in the OP" to which we got...

 

Dismissal of arguments that he cannot retort to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All round trying to annoy Beni. He'd been perfectly hospitable and kind to him, simply putting his arguments forward in a matter of fact way.

 

 

Hehe, just found this. Thought it was funny.

Mainly because he's comparing the Jedi High Council, the best in an order of thousands, to rank and file sith who happened to use a name that previously meant something.

 

THIS IS BEFORE I even entered the debate, he was far from a shining beacon of light before I showed up... Oh and then:

 

For using the exact same insult he used on Beni.

 

 

Annnnyyyywwwaaayyyyy, it got heated, we're all prone to it, but this guy was doing it before it was cool

No but seriously, he deserved it.

The thing is Selenial, when someone decides to ignore the rules of canon(like both of you using non canon cut content to suit your arguments), i can't take either of you two seriously, especially when one is self righteous into proclaiming himself an authority.

 

I didn't ignore any arguments, you ignored more than half the evidence i conjured and retorted to twisting facts.

 

If thats the case, if canon is being chosen to be ignored here, why don't you guys put dark side Mortis Anakin on number 1 spot? Seeing that how the infinities comic shows that when The Father didn't wipe Anakins vision of his future self, he became tainted under the influence of the dark side of the force from the son and became to powerful to the point where -

1.) Sidious revealed his true sith identity to Yoda and called for a temporary truce.

2)They actually team up and put aside their beliefs to stop Anakin

3) They both get beaten singlehandedly by Anakin with very little effort.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Makoto_Shishio

[LadyKulvax]

Oh Makoto, dear dear Makoto.....

 

You realise how much 'cut content' has been canonised now don't you? Brianna the Handmaiden AND Mical joined the Exile, as cut-content was going to do.

 

HK-47 and two HK-50 droids did shut down G0-T0 and took over the HK factory like the cut content showed.

 

Darth Sion's history as one of Kun's Dark Jedi as the cut content showed was canonised too.

 

and a hell of a lot more, your major blow off for all this just because of one tiny scene in the cut content that Beni is factoring in here is a whole lot of hot steam off cold lead right now.

 

To me this whole debate is cut short by one statement:

 

"Yeh, I mean we were going to patch all of that in any way, LucasArts just wouldn't let us do it we have no idea to this day why but the huge amounts of cut content we were going to finish post-launch and then we were going to patch it all into the game, we just didn't get the clearance for it, so yeh it may as well be 'canon' but given how many choices you can make, I'm not certain it matters." - Chris Avellone, Lead Writer for Obsidian on KotOR 2.

Edited October 23, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Makoto_Shishio]

"Yeh, I mean we were going to patch all of that in any way, LucasArts just wouldn't let us do it we have no idea to this day why but the huge amounts of cut content we were going to finish post-launch and then we were going to patch it all into the game, we just didn't get the clearance for it, so yeh it may as well be 'canon' but given how many choices you can make,[/b] I'm not certain it matters."[/b] - Chris Avellone, Lead Writer for Obsidian on KotOR 2.

 

See the bolded part? That means Lucasarts did not approve of cut content being released therefore it's non canon.

 

Only parts of cut content has been acknowledged by recent sources that were released.

 

What the lead writer says is irrelevant, Hayden Blackman also made a statement of Galen Marek, having the potential to be the most powerful force user ever but that isn't considered canon because it contradicts numerous sources and George Lucas that states that Anakin Skywalker was the one with the highest force potential to become to the most powerful force user

 

Oh Makoto, dear dear Makoto.....

 

You realise how much 'cut content' has been canonised now don't you? Brianna the Handmaiden AND Mical joined the Exile, as cut-content was going to do.

Yes i do, but the sad fact is only parts of cut content is "canonized". M4-78 arc is still non canon, the brawl which happened on the ravager between Sion and Nihilus is still..... non canon. The exiles party being captured by Sion on Malachor V which is a part of cut content.... is still non canon. Kreia "dominating" Sion on Malachor V.... is also still non canon.

 

All because only parts of cut content has been acknowledged by recent sources, sources which you have yet to provide.

 

Those events were simply retconned by newer sources, in no way does this make the full fan restored content "canon".

 

 

Try again and this time round, stop trying to twist facts.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Makoto_Shishio

[LadyKulvax]

Don't try and put a tone down with me, take your fearless crusader shtick and use it on someone who cares for it.

 

You argument is baseless and hasn't actually taken proper canon into account in the first place, so please don't start petty mud throwing with me or my friends here when you yourself don't even know what is and is not canon:

 

"Whilst Nihilus and Sion were juggernauts of power and the very embodiments of the Dark Side, they lacked all control, their power was false and was never something the Sith Lords could direct. Where Darth Malak saw immense power in the Lord of Pain, his master Revan saw a lack of will and in it's place blind rage. Sion had forgotten his name, forgotten his purpose and had even forgotten his first and only death, the slow death he'd been dying for decades, all he remembered was his hatred for the Jedi instilled in him the moment a shard of a Sith's holocron had pierced directly into his heart, on that day a man died and a monstrosity that could not know death was born.

 

Nihilus was yet worse, for all the acts of devastation he'd brought about there was no power of the Dark Side within him, there was no darkness or evil, there was only a hole and a wound that had torn it's way into his very soul as he died defending the Mass Shadow Generator, his body died, his essence of being died, but his spirit, his spirit remained for a time using his long deceased and emaciated corpse to keep himself intact, but eventually the Lord of Hunger that would become known as Darth Nihilus had to abandon rotting flesh, instead inhabiting a mask and a robe, all he had become was a well of nothingness, not power or energy or gravity but a well of nihilism in which all life and matter became non-existent.

 

There was however a third, the leader and the teacher a manipulator and a prophet, she was the Lord of Betrayals once one of the most powerful Jedi, but shamed and scorned for her beliefs, cast out and branded as a heretic by an Order that needed her vision and guidance, this festered something deep within her a need to prove her own words true. Darth Traya was the most powerful of the Sith Triumvirate, She had ultimate power over all of her progenies, yet she failed time and again to accomplish the one thing that ever mattered to her, to train one as powerful as her first. When these failings became her downfall she then festered something far worse than a need for self-conviction, she believed that the Force itself had betrayed her in the depths of Malachor V and as she plotted her hatred for what she perceived as a thief became a singular vision, a vision of destruction."

 

--------------

 

"...and for all their power, the embodiments of rage and destruction were nothing but thralls of her own will, she had broken Sion into a machine of hatred, a machine of war which she could direct at any Jedi that dared stand against them, Sion would attempt to kill her over and over until he realised that he was as frail and weak as the old woman he perceived was, because whilst his grip on un-life was extreme, the grip he felt on his mind was far stronger than any power he could grasp in his broken hands. Even the mighty Lord of Hunger the desolater himself could not face his master, she had power enough yet to tear his spirit asunder and send it back to the void where it had long belonged.

 

But her power had betrayed her when it mattered most, she could not summon her abilities to drain upon the Dark Side, even here in her enormous meditation complex, for she realised that the Dark Side had abandoned her, the will of Nihilus had suddenly grown to a multiple of her own insidious power, she realised he had devoured an entire planet and he ripped away her ability to exert her extreme command over the Force as easily as she once believed she could tear off his mask, she was now a weak and frail old woman and that day Nihilus had become a far greater threat than she could possibly stop."

 

- Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

Edited October 23, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Makoto_Shishio]

Don't try and put a tone down with me, take your fearless crusader shtick and use it on someone who cares for it.

Yet you care enough to constantly reply despite being wrong about what is canon and what isn't.

You argument is baseless and hasn't actually taken proper canon into account in the first place, so please don't start petty mud throwing with me or my friends here when you yourself don't even know what is and is not canon:

I fail to see how those empty passages prove that anything in cut content was canon as you keep putting it out to be, why don't you actually respond to my previous arguments instead of conjuring new useless ones?

 

And slinging mud at your "friends"? Am i suppose to go lulz? One of your "friends" outright claimed he doesn't care about canon, yet somehow Im the one thats being looked at for supposedly having baseless arguments that hasn't taken proper canon into account

 

Iv listed the sources such as Path of destruction to support some of my arguments, its not my fault your dyslexic or a retard at reading comprehension.

 

Yes, you're trying to tell me fan restored content is canon and yet when i argue against that because most of it still isn't canon, im the one who doesn't "know what is canon and what isn't", seriously are you a clown?

 

Trying to tell me my arguments are baseless won't prove that the majority of cut content is still non canon, you're the baseless one that has constantly failed to respond to any of my points to begin with.

 

PS

Your Passage from the KOTOR campaign guide only proved my point : That the majority of fan restored cut content still isn't canon. You shot yourself on the foot their mate

Edited October 23, 2013 by Makoto_Shishio

[LadyKulvax]

Stop being a condescending and insulting debater, calling people clowns and fanboys just makes you sound childish, but why bother convincing you when you clearly like to start arguments....

 

Also you entirely missed my point in the first place, you are making such a massive deal out of nothing over a 1 minute cut content scene, when other canon has already established that Traya is far more powerful than Sion anyway and this whole raging debate you're having matters as much as your point is relevant to the thread in the first place.

 

But hey don't let something like common logic get in the way of your forum crusading and keyboard warrior sk1llz, I've seen you do it for years on this forum, wouldn't expect you to stop now.

 

This is going to be my last reply to you, needless to say I am more than a little sick and tired of watching this utterly pointless debate go on and on and hijack this perfectly good thread.

[Makoto_Shishio]

Stop being a condescending and insulting debater, calling people clowns and fanboys just makes you sound childish, but why bother convincing you when you clearly like to start arguments....

 

Also you entirely missed my point in the first place, you are making such a massive deal out of nothing over a 1 minute cut content scene, when other canon has already established that Traya is far more powerful than Sion anyway and this whole raging debate you're having matters as much as your point is relevant to the thread in the first place.

 

But hey don't let something like common logic get in the way of your forum crusading and keyboard warrior sk1llz, I've seen you do it for years on this forum, wouldn't expect you to stop now.

 

This is going to be my last reply to you, needless to say I am more than a little sick and tired of watching this utterly pointless debate go on and on and hijack this perfectly good thread.

I wasn't disputing Trayas superiority over Sion... im just very questionable of the sources used earlier(cut content)

 

Keyboard warriors, you gave me t3h lulz, i hardly spend anytime here so "years" would be a huge exaggeration, stop fantasizing about me ms.

[Beniboybling]

- Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide.

Lol, every time you post from that book my eyes grow wide with wonder. That's one the few sourcebooks that Wookiee doesn't do justice to. Really need to get my hands on it.

[Beniboybling]

I wasn't disputing Trayas superiority over Sion... im just very questionable of the sources used earlier(cut content)

Your making the mistake here of assuming I'm asserting cut content as canon, I'm not I'm asserting is as relevant.

 

Just because something has the label "non-canon" does not mean we should automatically disregard it, its Star Wars material and therefore still has relevance. We are in a position to remove these blinkers and actually consider what it might mean, and to me it shows how much more powerful Traya is over Sion - which is confirmed by canon sources.

 

So regardless of whether it happened or not, it certainly could happen.

 

Just like that statement by Hayden Blackman is relevant (and has been used as evidence in these threads) it may not be canon but it demonstrates several facts, namely that Galen Marek was being portrayed as a powerful Force User and not just OPed by game mechanics, and that he become more powerful than Vader.

 

Being willfully ignorant of non-canon sources is just that, being ignorant.

 

Anyway I don't plan on getting back into this debate, just demonstrating how I feel about non-canon.

[fellblade]

Back on topic. Just put Kas'im at #7. We all know that's going to happen anyway, may as well just do it so we can move on.

 

*steps over all the bickering folks*

 

I will agree with This......

 

As I said before - If we are going to use Varied ,Wide-Ranging Lightsaber Skills as a 'reason for' in this debate (Such as Ulic being proficient in other styles apart from Djem So - Which is a perfectly valid point to make in his favour). I very much doubt that you will find many that will beat Kas'im's credentials in that regard (especially that he was a master of Duel-Wielding and Saberstaff also, so that becomes an even stronger argument in Kas'im's favour).

 

Sometimes we just have to accept that there may be Characters that we don't like - but who have certain credentials (skills/powers) that make them contenders on some of these these lists.

 

Personally I dislike Darth Caedus and Jaina Solo (and most of that NJO stuff) - but I will admit that they (especially Caedus) would probably make a lot of these Top 10 lists.

 

Come on Folks, give Kas'im a break - There are a lot worse Characters and far more overrated ones than him.....

[Makoto_Shishio]

Your making the mistake here of assuming I'm asserting cut content as canon, I'm not I'm asserting is as relevant.

 

Just because something has the label "non-canon" does not mean we should automatically disregard it, its Star Wars material and therefore still has relevance. We are in a position to remove these blinkers and actually consider what it might mean, and to me it shows how much more powerful Traya is over Sion - which is confirmed by canon sources.

 

So regardless of whether it happened or not, it certainly could happen.

 

Just like that statement by Hayden Blackman is relevant (and has been used as evidence in these threads) it may not be canon but it demonstrates several facts, namely that Galen Marek was being portrayed as a powerful Force User and not just OPed by game mechanics, and that he become more powerful than Vader.

 

Being willfully ignorant of non-canon sources is just that, being ignorant.

 

Anyway I don't plan on getting back into this debate, just demonstrating how I feel about non-canon.

Non canon is non canon and is irrelevant if you really want to debate seriously. If you used lets the KOTOR campaign guide to prove Traya's superiorirty over Sion, then thats fine.

 

But if you're using cut content to prove Traya's superiority over Sion(assuming of course there are no other sources to prove your point), then theres an issue with that.

 

Which brings me to my next point about Dark Side Mortis Anakin...

[RTCBrad]

Lol this list, honestly?

 

Sidious anywhere but no.1 is wrong, and suggesting Maul is in the top 10 sith lightsaber duelists is just frankly laughable.

[Darkelefantos]

Lol this list, honestly?

 

Sidious anywhere but no.1 is wrong, and suggesting Maul is in the top 10 sith lightsaber duelists is just frankly laughable.

 

Sidious was a master, but I don't think Lightsaber combat was his preferred way of fighting.

 

Also, name 10 who are more viable than Maul. He deserves his spot on this list, and TCW even fortified his position. Not that he actually required that.

[sell-dog]

Lol this list, honestly?

 

Sidious anywhere but no.1 is wrong, and suggesting Maul is in the top 10 sith lightsaber duelists is just frankly laughable.

 

Caedus performed better against a better Luke than Sidious did against a pre-prime Luke. This and other things are why Caedus is #1 on Sith Lightsaber skill but Sidious we all know is #1 overall Sith.

 

Maul's #6 is secure as is Kas'im's #7 spot. I'd also like to throw in Bane's name again for the list along with Krayt and Ulic

[Beniboybling]

Let's get this back on track:

 

Putting forward Kas'im again for #7.

[fellblade]

Caedus performed better against a better Luke than Sidious did against a pre-prime Luke. This and other things are why Caedus is #1 on Sith Lightsaber skill but Sidious we all know is #1 overall Sith.

 

Maul's #6 is secure as is Kas'im's #7 spot. I'd also like to throw in Bane's name again for the list along with Krayt and Ulic

 

I will go for Bane too - I don't really know enough about Krayt to argue his case but he does 'seem' like he should be on this list.

[fellblade]

Let's get this back on track:

 

Putting forward Kas'im again for #7.

 

While there may be many that dislike Kas'im - and I will agree that 'greatest swordsman that ever lived' is hype...

 

However, in universe fact is: that he was a Master of all seven Forms and beyond that he had perfected every move and every sequence - and that is not hype, not opinion and cannot be disputed. (and this is not extrapolation of the text either - it is a flat-out stated truth of the character)

 

In a list dealing with just Lightsaber skill in it's purest form (so no physical or force power advantages being taken into account) - I don't see how he could not be on this list (possibly even higher)

 

My knowledge of the Star Wars universe is far from complete so if there are others with better credentials which can be proven by actual sources and not bias or opinion - then fine........but I am sure that this will be hard to beat (and certainly not by what I have seen so far)

[Kaedusz]

In my view, the warrior protagonist in SWTOR and Kas'im are the best lightsaber duelists among the sith,and in SW in general.+ Tulak Hord.

There are some others that can bear the title of more powerful than them but they are like guys that have diplomas in weak universities ,which doesn't count for much.Which means they may be interpreted as being better , but only on paper.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Kaedusz

[Selenial]

In my view, the warrior protagonist in SWTOR and Kas'im are the best lightsaber duelists among the sith,and in SW in general.+ Tulak Hord.

There are some others that can bear the title of more powerful than them but they are like guys that have diplomas in weak universities ,which doesn't count for much.Which means they may be interpreted as being better , but only on paper.

 

*Repeatedly smashes head into desk until the desk breaks in two*

 

Warrior has absolutely no in depth canon information, that's just the fanboy in you talking.

However your faith in Kas'im redeems you

Edited October 27, 2013 by Selenial

[Kaedusz]

Warrior has absolutely no in depth canon information, that's just the fanboy in you talking.

You are absolutely correct about that. (see, i have no problem admitting it when it's true)

However i refuse to believe that the sith protagonist of a huge and important timeline of the SW universe is something less than a hugely powerful badas$.Especialy when we are talking about some1 that is supposed to be second in power only to Vitiate - in the original and genuine !SITH! Empire.Especially that the game made it clear that lightsaber skills is a huge part of what made him second only to Vitiate.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Kaedusz