Selenial Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I have, lol but not in length because this isn't the thread for it. You said yourself, Malgus shows more Basic powers in the force where Traya has more estoric. That I agree with, just not the him having more Raw Power... Also, why are we not looking at Traya's ability over Alter and Sense? This isn't all about combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Before I start my Kas'im arguments... is this just about Lightsaber skills or is it about overall effectiveness (including the force)? If this is the case with just Lightsaber Skills then I think a good argument could be made for Kas'im however if it is including force powers then I would admit he would fare somewhat worse (although it did look like he had some pretty good direct force attack defences) - but as I have argued, Kas'im went beyond what I would consider 'Battlemaster' level with his skills. If it is about overall effectiveness (Including force powers) - I would say someone like Ventress would perhaps fair better than what she possibly would otherwise - very talented lightsaber duellist but does not display the overall knowledge of certain nuances of Lightsaber fighting - Also (kind of) limited to Jar Kai wielding (otherwise significantly less effective). However, what I like about her is that she is flexible and agile and has a nice 'flow' to her fighting - this gives her an ability to make surprising transitions from one move to another which can cause problems to some technically superior opponents than her - as she can make (relentless) attacks from all kinds of positions which can throw people off their game and she uses the force pretty well while fighting. Savage Opress could possibly have a case as well (if this were the case) as he can use Very Overwhelming bursts of force power at times - Enough to give him some very significant openings despite his somewhat crude Lightsaber skills. Not to mention his Physical Strength and Resilience (Which could be an argument for Vader also - as Vader can take some direct Lightsaber hits or even glancing hits that would end the fight for others. So in a Stalemate he could possibly use a kind of Epee take a hit to give a hit type of tactic) But Clarify which one and I will throw my tuppence in...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 It's just lightsaber skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Before I start my Kas'im arguments... is this just about Lightsaber skills or is it about overall effectiveness (including the force)? If this is the case with just Lightsaber Skills then I think a good argument could be made for Kas'im however if it is including force powers then I would admit he would fare somewhat worse (although it did look like he had some pretty good direct force attack defences) - but as I have argued, Kas'im went beyond what I would consider 'Battlemaster' level with his skills. If it is about overall effectiveness (Including force powers) - I would say someone like Ventress would perhaps fair better than what she possibly would otherwise - very talented lightsaber duellist but does not display the overall knowledge of certain nuances of Lightsaber fighting - Also (kind of) limited to Jar Kai wielding (otherwise significantly less effective). However, what I like about her is that she is flexible and agile and has a nice 'flow' to her fighting - this gives her an ability to make surprising transitions from one move to another which can cause problems to some technically superior opponents than her - as she can make (relentless) attacks from all kinds of positions which can throw people off their game and she uses the force pretty well while fighting. Savage Opress could possibly have a case as well (if this were the case) as he can use Very Overwhelming bursts of force power at times - Enough to give him some very significant openings despite his somewhat crude Lightsaber skills. Not to mention his Physical Strength and Resilience (Which could be an argument for Vader also - as Vader can take some direct Lightsaber hits or even glancing hits that would end the fight for others. So in a Stalemate he could possibly use a kind of Epee take a hit to give a hit type of tactic) But Clarify which one and I will throw my tuppence in...... From what I understand, it's about the persons skill in a Lightsaber duel, I'm pretty sure excluding Force powers (except Force Speed, maybe?). Anyway, I don't think Ventress and Savage qualify because they aren't technically Sith, so talk some more about Kas'im. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 From what I understand, it's about the persons skill in a Lightsaber duel, I'm pretty sure excluding Force powers (except Force Speed, maybe?). Anyway, I don't think Ventress and Savage qualify because they aren't technically Sith, so talk some more about Kas'im. Cool - Ok I was just using Ventress and Savage to illustrate the point of what I meant that I considered the difference between actual skill and overall effectiveness. I've just got back from work and I want some food now- I will argue for Kas'im later on when the hunger is sated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 Deal with it, thats just the way i debate, nothin personal.Dealing with it i.e. ignoring you. Sorry, but I can't handle the stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 Anyone else finding this Traya vs. Malgus discussion to be pointless? At least take it to the proper thread.Well if we can get everyone's opinions (looks at Aurbere) it can be a quick fix, but I'll source the discussion out the the other thread if need be. I do however feel it is a discussion that needs to be had. At some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 As is with most. Bane for example, while highly skilled, just like Vader, is easily killed by force lightning. And you can not ignore the force in combat. Force attacks are a big part of lightsaber combat, it is never just a pure saber on saber, that is why it shouldnt be disregarded.Well like I said Nihilus just isn't being considered, and definitely not for this list because we have no evidence at all concerning his lightsaber abilities. As for the general comment, yes and no. Lightsaber duels are indeed a mix of many things, but we are not talking about lightsaber duels. We are focusing exclusively on the facet of lightsaber ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Well if we can get everyone's opinions (looks at Aurbere) it can be a quick fix, but I'll source the discussion out the the other thread if need be. I do however feel it is a discussion that needs to be had. At some point. I don't have an opinion because so far it's been "Traya did this, but Malgus didn't!" and vice-versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 Aurbere has spoken. Listen to him. In all honesty, I totally agree.I demand you opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) I have, lol but not in length because this isn't the thread for it.Well the thing is I posted this on the relevant thread but got few responses. EDIT: Though if you want to respond to my post feel free to do so in the linked thread. Edited October 21, 2013 by Beniboybling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I demand you opinion. An opinion of what, exactly? As to whether #7 on this list should be Darth Krayt, Darth Bane, Kas'im or Ulic Qel-Droma? I'm sorry, the only one I could actually evaluate would be Krayt. A quick look at Wookiee suggests that Kas'im is their superior, but as I said, I'm not well informed regarding their respective eras. Or an opinion regarding your Traya vs Malgus debate? I would be OK if you simply swapped them, if you really care that much. I believe that both deserve their respective spots on these lists. Who comes ahead is probably as much a matter of preference as of actual facts. Although, simply put, if there was a book about Darth Traya, the decision would be way easier. Because the way it is now, some of her feats are based on gameplay mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 An opinion of what, exactly? As to whether #7 on this list should be Darth Krayt, Darth Bane, Kas'im or Ulic Qel-Droma? I'm sorry, the only one I could actually evaluate would be Krayt. A quick look at Wookiee suggests that Kas'im is their superior, but as I said, I'm not well informed regarding their respective eras. Or an opinion regarding your Traya vs Malgus debate? I would be OK if you simply swapped them, if you really care that much. I believe that both deserve their respective spots on these lists. Who comes ahead is probably as much a matter of preference as of actual facts. Although, simply put, if there was a book about Darth Traya, the decision would be way easier. Because the way it is now, some of her feats are based on gameplay mechanics.Yeah I was more referring to Traya vs Malgus, the more opinions we get the faster the situation can be resolved, however pushing it to one side won't get rid of it. But anyway I'm happy to refocus on this current list. I await Fellblade's analysis, and of course if anyone wants to throw in their support by all means do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 We all know Kas'im is going to be picked for #7 anyway. May as well just do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunewalker Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Honestly based on the knowledge of who everyone fought and where the people they fought are placed and how well they faired to me #7 should be Ulic, #8 should be Krayt and #9 should be Kas'im Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 OK, in a list of pure Lightsaber Skill (and nothing else) then yes I have got to argue for Kas'im I will try and keep it brief and use the actual source (Path of Destruction book) for my argument: Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the Lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him. Without even going for the Greatest Swordsman quote, I think this passage spells it out WHY Kas'im was so skilled. It explains that he masters all seven forms pretty early on and also alludes to the fact that 'mastery' is considered a specific level of proficiency not complete superiority (again this is backed up by the fact that Dooku even says that a Battlemaster can be beaten by a specialist of a single form). Then Beyond just 'mastery' of all seven forms - it says that Kas'im perfected every move and every sequence making him perhaps one of the most overall completely skilled Lightsaber Duellists that has ever existed. Remember, that this is just about lightsaber skill not overall effectiveness- and if someone knows every move and sequence of all the forms and can do them to perfection then he has to be on the list. I would like to see some of these other choices be backed up with canon sources to indicate this type of level of Lightsaber skill or greater - I don't think it will be that easy...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karadron Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Honestly based on the knowledge of who everyone fought and where the people they fought are placed and how well they faired to me #7 should be Ulic, #8 should be Krayt and #9 should be Kas'im This pretty much sums up how I feel about this right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Basically Kas'im's overinflated reputation makes him out to be the Bret Hart of Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 Basically Kas'im's overinflated reputation makes him out to be the Bret Hart of Star Wars.Not biased huh? We may not like what writers do with characters but this is how Kas'im has been portrayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Basically Kas'im's overinflated reputation makes him out to be the Bret Hart of Star Wars. Lol - I was a big Bret Hart fan The best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be...... Well I have at least explained Why Kas'im has the reputation based on proficiency with the Lightsaber - is he unbeatable? - not at all, is he skilled with Lightsabers - Hell yes Again, this is a contest of Lightsaber skills not an overall Duelling ability which would include things like Force Powers or Physical Conditioning.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellblade Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Basically Kas'im's overinflated reputation makes him out to be the Bret Hart of Star Wars. Also, I would say that reputation is more based on in-character quotes and what others have said about the said individual - which I have seen being used as evidence many times to back up arguments for a Character. What I wrote about Kas'im is in-universe Fact - (not quotes or any reputation given by others' opinions) Which is a lot stronger evidence than in-character quotes or reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Not biased huh? We may not like what writers do with characters but this is how Kas'im has been portrayed. One comment intended as a joke makes me bias. Yup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKulvax Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Honestly based on the knowledge of who everyone fought and where the people they fought are placed and how well they faired to me #7 should be Ulic, #8 should be Krayt and #9 should be Kas'im I agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 I agree with this.I'm not sure I see it, Krayt perhaps but Ulic? You said so yourself that Kun simply left Ulic behind in terms of lightsaber capabilities. Kun only duelled him to a standstill with a single blade, I doubt he'd have lasted long against his saberstaff. So utlimately we have a Djem So specialist - but I don't think as a specialist he deserves to be up there with Vader, Maul and Dooku - I feel he is in a lower league and therefore best placed at the tail end. #7 and #8 I feel should go to the 'second tier' if you like blademasters. Much like it did in the Jedi thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beniboybling Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 One comment intended as a joke makes me bias. Yup...I see no smilies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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