Shadow/Assassin Tanks in 2.5 (attn Combat Team)

[KeyboardNinja]

Hmm they are already nerfing the buffs of the nerfs of the buffs ? What gives? I only ask because last time they nerfed the buffs they were giving shadows, Austin Peckebaugh said that if there are problems they will fix them on the spot. On the spot meaning after 1 year it seems. So if the shadow tank ends up worse that it is now in every area, then faith in humanity is not restored.

 

Shadow tanks are still going to be the best in terms of overall damage taken, but only by a thin margin over vanguards. A tiny measure of the spikiness will return, so shadows will once again be spikier than vanguards, but only by a little bit. They will still be smoother than guardians and take less damage.

 

Basically nerfing the 40% boost to 20% is well measured, and exactly what the situation calls for.

Edited November 15, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[Leafy_Bug]

Shadow tanks are still going to be the best in terms of overall damage taken, but only by a thin margin over vanguards. A tiny measure of the spikiness will return, so shadows will once again be spikier than vanguards, but only by a little bit. They will still be smoother than guardians and take less damage.

 

Basically nerfing the 40% boost to 20% is well measured, and exactly what the situation calls for.

 

 

 

Given my experience with BioWare and class balancing, I am sorry but I disagree. The changes to the change are practically uncalled for as closed testing can only tell you so much. Not the first time you ran the numbers and in the long run shadow players get the short stick. You failed to take into account how BioWare tailors content. In 6 months a new operations will come out, we all know they don't use shadows to test them, and then we will be begging for the 20/40% armour boost. Its okay because KBN ran the math and we are all good. If you fail, l2play or l2shadow.

 

Again you postulate that Shadows take less damage which is last year's game design. Raptus is an example where your argument has no place in today's content. I don't want my shadow to take less damage, I want it to be reliable and LESS SPIKY. Raptus hits me from 5k to 37k that is what bothers me and my healers because if my guardian tank makes a mistake and one healer is teleported, I MAY DIE as a shadow. Damn this big picture!!! its good! I gotta use 5 sets of gear for each boss and configure accordingly in the hopes that maybe I don't spike!

 

 

I am extremely disappointed to see these changes because I know if they will not be enough we will not get any improvement for another year. So I thank you for getting the nerfhammer, in the long run, on a class that has been gimped for a 1 year. So i raise my glass to 2.5, a patch that will make shadows OP until the new operations come and we will be S*it again for 1 year. Great input to the developers to balance out tanks in this game.

 

 

GG KBN,

 

I thank you for scr*ewing us over and taking things too far this time. Your work and modelling is appreciated but sometimes you need to sit back. I am asking myself how long you played your shadow with the 2.5 class changes and what future content bosses you tanked in 16M NiM to reach the conclusion that this is for the best.

 

 

Regards,

 

E.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Ryokusen]

So assuming the new pts values go live, what is the most brutal spike I can expect on my shadow?

Also should I start swaping my lettered gear for low endurance high mitigation ones?

Thanks

[THoK-Zeus]

.... Raptus ....spiky ....

 

Weren't you the guy that stood in red circles on thrasher and complained then that he was spiked to death on thrasher (due to the 19k hit from the demolisher)?

 

For raptus i can give you the same hint. Don't stand in the purple stuff he casts.

 

KBN and i have made already multiple posts about improving performance when fighting raptus. You have not contributed a single thing in my opinion apart from insults to the tanking community and even with all the help you got you still keep on yelling at the persons that helped you countless of times.

 

To the topic:

 

When the changes go on test server i hope we can get some raids together and test the stuff. I will definitly be there.

Edited November 15, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

wait... when u say damage debuffs are multiplicative, u mean that a 5% damage debuff on the boss would modify kinetic armor and internal resistance by present_value*(1.05)?

[Altheran]

wait... when u say damage debuffs are multiplicative, u mean that a 5% damage debuff on the boss would modify kinetic armor and internal resistance by present_value*(1.05)?

 

new_value = 1 – new_damage

new_damage = 0.95 * normal_damage

normal_damage = 1 – present_value

new_value = 1 – 0.95 * (1 – present_value) = 0.05 + 0.95 present_value

 

(Assuming you meant present_value as "present mitigation", hence new_value meaning "virtual mitigation")

Edited November 15, 2013 by Altheran

[Leafy_Bug]

Weren't you the guy that stood in red circles on thrasher and complained then that he was spiked to death on thrasher (due to the 19k hit from the demolisher)?

 

For raptus i can give you the same hint. Don't stand in the purple stuff he casts.

 

KBN and i have made already multiple posts about improving performance when fighting raptus. You have not contributed a single thing in my opinion apart from insults to the tanking community and even with all the help you got you still keep on yelling at the persons that helped you countless of times.

 

To the topic:

 

When the changes go on test server i hope we can get some raids together and test the stuff. I will definitly be there.

 

 

 

When you get out out that tunnel one day we will probably have a decent conversation. Regarding you and KBN making multiple posts about improving shadow tank performance, this was a necesity to try to find solutions to a broken class. Damn that tunnel you live in. Vanguards and Guardians do not need 3 days of topics on how to tank raptus. A BIS 72 guardian vs a BIS 72 shadow vs Raptus will ge the Shadow Tank one shot. I am BIS 78 apart form a few pieces and now I laugh at Raptus, my co-tank , guardian, BIS 78 laughs even more.

 

In any case, you keep doing the work for me and dozens of other players who main tank in the best guilds on their respective servers. You run the math, I farm the hardest content. Don't feel bad, think of yourself like Rocky, Vettel's engineer. I can't drive the car without you but at the end of the day, its me that wins the driver's championship not you, you take the backseat there, to the left, with the cheerleaders!

 

 

 

G'day Sir.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[dipstik]

new_value = 1 – new_damage

new_damage = 0.95 * normal_damage

normal_damage = 1 – present_value

new_value = 1 – 0.95 * (1 – present_value) = 0.05 + 0.95 present_value

 

(Assuming you meant present_value as "present mitigation", hence new_value meaning "virtual mitigation")

 

the new damage=95% normal damage is what i have setup already. i think KBN is maybe talking about how skill tree stuff is seperate from the damage debuff. this is how some buffs work:

 

presently i have:

kinetic damage reduction=(armor*(1+bonus))/((armor*(1+bonus))+240*55+800)+added

 

but i think KBN is saying that it should be

 

(armor*(1+bonus))/((armor*(1+bonus))+240*55+800)+(added_from_skill_tree)*(1+added_from_debuffs)

 

or

 

((armor*(1+bonus))/((armor*(1+bonus))+240*55+800)+(added_from_skill_tree))*(1+added_from_debuffs)

Edited November 15, 2013 by dipstik

[THoK-Zeus]

When you get out out that tunnel one day we will probably have a decent conversation. Regarding you and KBN making multiple posts about improving shadow tank performance, this was a necesity to try to find solutions to a broken class. Damn that tunnel you live in. Vanguards and Guardians do not need 3 days of topics on how to tank raptus. A BIS 72 guardian vs a BIS 72 shadow vs Raptus will ge the Shadow Tank one shot. I am BIS 78 apart form a few pieces and now I laugh at Raptus, my co-tank , guardian, BIS 78 laughs even more.

 

In any case, you keep doing the work for me and dozens of other players who main tank in the best guilds on their respective servers. You run the math, I farm the hardest content. Don't feel bad, think of yourself like Rocky, Vettel's engineer. I can't drive the car without you but at the end of the day, its me that wins the driver's championship not you, you take the backseat there, to the left, with the cheerleaders!

 

 

 

G'day Sir.

 

Yes, of course your guild is way better then mine and you cleared for sure way more content then i did.

 

Drop it Like it's Hoth is more of a casual guild compared to whatever you are in

 

I don't think we will ever have a conversation cause well i generally just talk with tanks about tank topics and you are not a tank.

 

I also didn't need 3 days of topic to clear raptus and i haven't seen him one-shotting anyone.

 

 

@dipstik: I think your version should be correct. I don't remember it for 100% and i need to reconfirm it tough.

Edited November 16, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[KeyboardNinja]

the new damage=95% normal damage is what i have setup already. i think KBN is maybe talking about how skill tree stuff is seperate from the damage debuff. this is how some buffs work:

 

presently i have:

kinetic damage reduction=(armor*(1+bonus))/((armor*(1+bonus))+240*55+800)+added

 

but i think KBN is saying that it should be

 

(armor*(1+bonus))/((armor*(1+bonus))+240*55+800)+(added_from_skill_tree)*(1+added_from_debuffs)

 

or

 

((armor*(1+bonus))/((armor*(1+bonus))+240*55+800)+(added_from_skill_tree))*(1+added_from_debuffs)

 

Yes, I'm using the multiplicative form now, since that is (so far as I can tell) how the mechanics work. The damage values are reduced as a multiplier on the outgoing damage from the boss, after which that net value is subject to the damage reduction from the tank. Thus, multiplicative rather than additive with flat DR.

 

I'm also counting healing bonuses differently now. Whereas before, I treated them as multiplicative DR, I now treat them as fractional percent increase. Thus:

 

(1 - (1 - dr)(1 - debuff)) / (1 + heal-increase)

 

This allows me to more accurately account for Shadows Shelter.

[THoK-Zeus]

After over a month of hardcore grinding, I managed to polish out my three sets of gear. I wonder how many Shadow tanks, who view the numbers and agree on the changes, can say they have covered all the content with various compositions and have managed to customize their gear to be an asset rather than a pain in the nikta.

 

 

I can.

 

Given the above, my raiding track record, as of late, has been in the super hardcore niche in order to better understand the pre 2.5 and post 2.5 Shadow tank changes. No, i am not a theory crafter but I do have a PhD in Economics with specialization in Statistical Modelling. I am not completely immune, as most, when I see the theory crafting modelling. Granted, I can be vocal at times, but who isn't when people exhibit idiotic behavior when they do not even have sufficient data to walk the walk.

 

 

If you look at the Shadow tanking forums and general tanking forums, only a handful contribute if we are being realistic, while the remainder of members either agree blindly to any thread where some numbers show up, either sit quiet and let these omnipotent members do their thing.I have Council on FARM with all my characters, however, the majority, who blindly agrees to every thread with numbers, barely passed the first phase. These same people, live vicariously and tend to forget that modelling can be flawed at times.

 

 

Dread Council hm is a simple fight and it's not really an accomplishment (atleast for me) to have it on farm.

 

Your rage and harassement of kbn is laughable, as he's a) a better theory-crafter and b) a better tank. I know his combat logs and the ones you uploaded on the forums so i am 100% sure of this.

 

 

If your read KBN's latest posts, he postulates that he does not want the class 'to be boring' and uptime is not that of a big deal, hence the changes he proposes. Can you say drop some of the attitude and smell the coffee? Aren't you a bit arrogant to justify changes to the class based on WHAT YOU THINK is boring or not? Aren't you a class rep anymore? Doesn't that entail a completely different mindset to the one you have been pushing on the forums as of late?

 

 

I will test the 2.5 changes next weekend as I have gathered sufficient LIVE information to make an accurate judgement for myself. In my early test, I can say that, the changes do not seem earth moving. They are meticulously calculated to give your healers the extra second for the heal you need, when the crap hits the fan, of course. Something you do not have on live now if you are not grossly overgeared.

 

So you want to tell us that our class rep is arrogant by justifying changes based on what he thinks?!

 

I will be arrogant now: Upload your combat logs of your farm df/dp hm runs and let's compare them to the one's i upload.

 

You have provided not a single bit of Information for the community, show us your amazing farm runs (as according to you most of the forum is not so good).

Edited November 19, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[SithTyre]

@Leafy- post your logs and show me WHY you think things should be as they are. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but by just saying blah blah blah is right and others are wrong because you don't agree is just stupid. If you have a better way to do something, give me proof (math and data speak volumes). While you do not have to do anything, if you would like to contribute to the community with knowledge, expect to be asked where you got those assumptions and how you can back them up with hard data preferably. If you chose not to do this, then you mind as well be wikipedia and post your opinion.

 

Not a fanboi here, but KBN, THoK, and Dipstik do post their data and math behind it come to some good conclusions. I chose to take this into account when I play/gear my toon. Are they perfect- no, no one is; but for me ti much better to use hard data and math as my reference versus- someone tooting their horn with nothing to back it up except - I just know because I have done it. That's fine and dandy but people tend to listen more when you can back-up your opinion with hard data.

 

With a PhD, you should know better than anyone how to back-up your opinions with references. These would be in the form of data from your logs or others' logs. I know you heard it a lot in your studies: prove it to me.

 

I look forward to your logs and data to back-up your reasoning, I would love nothing more than to see your information and see that it is, in fact, correct. I encourage new people to post opinions and data to back-up their thoughts. I learn from all of you, but I do lean more towards those that post the data to back-up their conclusions vs those that just say someone is wrong because they do it differently.

Edited November 19, 2013 by SithTyre

[dipstik]

seems to me that juggs are going to be OP. they are the only ones with an absorb/heal mechanic now (besides VG aoe), and will be less spikey than sins and take less damage post heals/absorb. this is at 6k incoming dps. not sure how much heals VG get in DF/DP average

 

shadow	jugg 	VG
pre heals/absorb	1710	1844	1740
post heals/absorb	1710	1711	1740
damage per HP	3.508	3.25	3.447
spike	0.0513	0.0454	0.0451

Edited November 27, 2013 by dipstik

[THoK-Zeus]

@dipstik:

There seem to be multiple major flaws in your math.

Edited November 19, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

it would be more helpful if you could elaborate.

here is what i have:

post armor mitigation (total_squish):

(1-DD)*(0.KW*(1-dr)*(0.5*(1-d-0.1)*(1-s*a)+0.5*(1-d)*(1-s*a))+KF*(1-dr)*(1-r)*(1-s*a)+TI*(1-ir)*(1-r))

 

where d-0.1 from is from 90% accuracy attack, 0.5 from fraction melee/ranged kinetic/energy at 90% accuracy (based on conservative estimate and roughly supported by combat data)

KW is fraction pre mitigation damage from melee/ranged kinetic/energy

KF is fraction pre mitigation damage from force/tech kinetic/energy damage

TI is fraction pre mitigation damage from force/tech internal/elemental damage

dr is damage reduction form armor, to kinetic and energy damage

d is defense fraction

s is shield fraction

a is absorb fraction

ir is internal resistance

r is resiatance

DD is damage debuff

 

KW=0.7295323

KF=0.231447

TI=0.0390207

 

shadow:

armor: 3212

armor_buff: 1.5

kinetic_bonus: 0.08

dr=(armor*(1+armor_bonus))/((armor*(1+armor_bonus))+240*55+800)+kinetic_bonus

 

internal_bonus=0.17

ir=0.1+internal_bonus

 

r=0.02

 

defense_rating=526

defense_bonus=0.11

d=(10+30*(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^((defense_rating/55)/1.2)))/100+defense_bonus

 

shield_rating=940

shield_bonus=0.35

s=(5+50*(1-(1-(0.01/0.5))^((shield_rating/55)/0.78)))/100+shield_bonus

 

absorb_rating=1216

absorb_bonus=0.0952

a=(20+50*(1-(1-(0.01/0.5))^((absorb_rating/55)/0.65)))/100+absorb_bonus

 

DD=0.05

 

for other specs, i have other numbers, but this should suffice for you pointing out my mistakes.

[THoK-Zeus]

it would be more helpful if you could elaborate.

here is what i have:

post armor mitigation (total_squish):

(1-DD)*(0.KW*(1-dr)*(0.5*(1-d-0.1)*(1-s*a)+0.5*(1-d)*(1-s*a))+KF*(1-dr)*(1-r)*(1-s*a)+TI*(1-ir)*(1-r))

 

where d-0.1 from is from 90% accuracy attack, 0.5 from fraction melee/ranged kinetic/energy at 90% accuracy (based on conservative estimate and roughly supported by combat data)

KW is fraction pre mitigation damage from melee/ranged kinetic/energy

KF is fraction pre mitigation damage from force/tech kinetic/energy damage

TI is fraction pre mitigation damage from force/tech internal/elemental damage

dr is damage reduction form armor, to kinetic and energy damage

d is defense fraction

s is shield fraction

a is absorb fraction

ir is internal resistance

r is resiatance

DD is damage debuff

 

KW=0.7295323

KF=0.231447

TI=0.0390207

 

shadow:

armor: 3212

armor_buff: 1.5

kinetic_bonus: 0.08

dr=(armor*(1+armor_bonus))/((armor*(1+armor_bonus))+240*55+800)+kinetic_bonus

 

internal_bonus=0.17

ir=0.1+internal_bonus

 

r=0.02

 

defense_rating=526

defense_bonus=0.11

d=(10+30*(1-(1-(0.01/0.3))^((defense_rating/55)/1.2)))/100+defense_bonus

 

shield_rating=940

shield_bonus=0.35

s=(5+50*(1-(1-(0.01/0.5))^((shield_rating/55)/0.78)))/100+shield_bonus

 

absorb_rating=1216

absorb_bonus=0.0952

a=(20+50*(1-(1-(0.01/0.5))^((absorb_rating/55)/0.65)))/100+absorb_bonus

 

DD=0.05

 

for other specs, i have other numbers, but this should suffice for you pointing out my mistakes.

 

I did in another thread i will copy it:

you calculated with a 3,2k migation Budget for juggernauts and with a 2,6k migation budge for sins and powertechs.

 

Next Thing: You seem to account different operations for the different tank classes, juggernaut looks like sv (df) data, vanguard looks like tfb (dp) data.

 

Also your base migation in the relic section and total squish are different in the juggernaut section (they should be the same and are the same for the other 2 tank classes).

Edited November 19, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[dipstik]

yeah, saw your post. i messed up by not deleting a buff from relics when calcing out pre relic data 9squish etc,.)

 

should be okay now. not sure about the whole tfb vs snv thing. all the calcs have df/dp averaged data, namely:

bland named

D weapon 0.7295323 0.5 0.5

D force 0.231447

D internal 0.0390207

Edited November 19, 2013 by dipstik

[Tsura]

I haven't yet included vanguard HPS. I might just straight-up assume that they're going to have around 100-120 HPS on all content. I'm open to general approximations if we think they will be close enough.

 

And how does those numbers put vanguards/powertechs in tanking ranking? Closer to shadows past 2.5? Equal?

[KeyboardNinja]

And how does those numbers put vanguards/powertechs in tanking ranking? Closer to shadows past 2.5? Equal?

 

Closer. Perhaps nearly equal. It's complicated to say. If I assume 120 HPS exactly, then Vanguards become the best tanks in Dread Fortress (even today), but only by a tiny margin. Post-2.5 shadows are literally just 0.3% behind them. Full spec guardians would fall 3.2% behind, and that's assuming that you're not running double-guardian (i.e. assuming that guardians have the 5% damage debuff from their cotank). Vanguards still fall 3.4% behind pre-2.5 shadows in Dread Palace and about 1% behind post-2.5 shadows. Most startlingly, even adding the self-heal, vanguards are a whopping 3.6% behind post-2.5 shadows in PvP, assuming full uptime on stacks and theoretically optimal Energy Blast usage.

 

The full graph is here: http://i.imgur.com/A8A8kTQ.png

[DarthSpekulatius]

your PVP statistic can't be right, /e is extremely surprised

does that include Critical hits ignoring shield?

or is it just the Def CDs that make my Guardian seem so completely over the top compared to my Shadow?

(in pvp and I have no Idea whatever the hell my gear is after bolster lol)

[KeyboardNinja]

your PVP statistic can't be right, /e is extremely surprised

does that include Critical hits ignoring shield?

 

Yes. While this issue does reduce the mitigation of shadows more than the other two tanks, it is counter-balanced by the fact that so much of PvP is yellow damage, meaning the value of shield is even higher.

 

Note that my PvP statistic assumes a concentrated burst window of about 15 seconds with two geared damage dealers on you with all their CDs up. Mathematically, I model that as 7k incoming DPS (trivial for two damage dealers with offensive CDs over a short period of time) paired with a scalar of (1 / 2.5) on the self-heal, modeling that the self-heal mechanisms are interrupted or otherwise countered just over 50% of the time. Another way of looking at this would be to assume that the average assassin tank in arenas is going to get two ticks of Force Lightning *most* of the time, and only one tick some of the time.

 

or is it just the Def CDs that make my Guardian seem so completely over the top compared to my Shadow?

 

Basically. Shadow dCDs are pretty awesome too, they're just a little harder to use.

 

(in pvp and I have no Idea whatever the hell my gear is after bolster lol)

 

It's not that complicated actually. Armor is bolstered, expertise is bolstered to the cap when below grade 66 gear, and each mod level at 66 and above reduces the amount of expertise granted to the bolstered item. Bolster is done by piece and not by mod, and I think the highest level mod in a piece dominates for expertise scaling (but I haven't tested exhaustively). Secondary and Tertiary stats aren't touched if you're at level 66 gear or higher. Thus, if you're using Conqueror or better gear, bolster essentially doesn't exist.

 

My stat distribution logic for PvP essentially assumes that you're at the expertise cap unbolstered, so all of your stats are genuine and you have the maximum baseline damage reduction.

Edited November 28, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[DarthSpekulatius]

it's been so long since my last PVP, and there's no rest in sight :|, 2xp for twink nr.8+x is running, starships beyond the Horizon, Rakghouls are breeding i heard and my shadow tank needs equipment in a Hurry.

 

DAMN IT I have no time for PVP

 

lol

[Aetideus]

Yes. While this issue does reduce the mitigation of shadows more than the other two tanks, it is counter-balanced by the fact that so much of PvP is yellow damage, meaning the value of shield is even higher.

 

Note that my PvP statistic assumes a concentrated burst window of about 15 seconds with two geared damage dealers on you with all their CDs up. Mathematically, I model that as 7k incoming DPS (trivial for two damage dealers with offensive CDs over a short period of time) paired with a scalar of (1 / 2.5) on the self-heal, modeling that the self-heal mechanisms are interrupted or otherwise countered just over 50% of the time. Another way of looking at this would be to assume that the average assassin tank in arenas is going to get two ticks of Force Lightning *most* of the time, and only one tick some of the time.

 

 

 

Basically. Shadow dCDs are pretty awesome too, they're just a little harder to use.

 

 

 

It's not that complicated actually. Armor is bolstered, expertise is bolstered to the cap when below grade 66 gear, and each mod level at 66 and above reduces the amount of expertise granted to the bolstered item. Bolster is done by piece and not by mod, and I think the highest level mod in a piece dominates for expertise scaling (but I haven't tested exhaustively). Secondary and Tertiary stats aren't touched if you're at level 66 gear or higher. Thus, if you're using Conqueror or better gear, bolster essentially doesn't exist.

 

My stat distribution logic for PvP essentially assumes that you're at the expertise cap unbolstered, so all of your stats are genuine and you have the maximum baseline damage reduction.

 

Kbn, smash is not the majority of the attacks, but is a big part. Would be fair to calculate 1 dps as smasher at least.

Then in practice, shadow will be the most vulnerable tank, yet in better standing than 2.4. Btw I do not believe the buff is that important for a full tank Shad since the stacks in arenas is impossible to be maintained in 12'' window.

In other words good for PvE tanking doubtfull for pvp.

1 smasher at the team is the common scenario. Would be nice if it wasn't but it is.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Aetideus

[KeyboardNinja]

Kbn, smash is not the majority of the attacks, but is a big part. Would be fair to calculate 1 dps as smasher at least.

Then in practice, shadow will be the most vulnerable tank, yet in better standing than 2.4. Btw I do not believe the buff is that important for a full tank Shad since the stacks in arenas is impossible to be maintained in 12'' window.

In other words good for PvE tanking doubtfull for pvp.

1 smasher at the team is the common scenario. Would be nice if it wasn't but it is.

 

Even if you have two smashers beating on you, Smash itself will be significantly less than 50% of the damage you take (try it sometime). I know smash is super-memorable, but it simply isn't the enormous vast majority of even a smasher's damage. Incidentally, you'll note that my comparative math does in fact account for auto-crits.

[Aetideus]

Even if you have two smashers beating on you, Smash itself will be significantly less than 50% of the damage you take (try it sometime). I know smash is super-memorable, but it simply isn't the enormous vast majority of even a smasher's damage. Incidentally, you'll note that my comparative math does in fact account for auto-crits.

 

Since I have a Mara I think that it does count for the majority of the dmg that makes in pvp, but I will try to check on tank.

Your calculations may account for autocrits, but the argument is about the percentage of smash autocrits. Most of the pvpers would agree that a smasher could inflict 2 smashes in 12'' by a 70% chance. I am not sure how this will effect 2.5 shadow, but surely destroys the 2.4 shadow.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Aetideus