Shadow/Assassin Tanks in 2.5 (attn Combat Team)

[ArchangelLBC]

VG/PT is I feel furthest behind in PVP for exactly that reason. Defensive CDs are much more important in PVP and while Jugg and Shadow have a similar amount of such things (very much including combat stealth for shadows when off solo guarding).

 

I'm also wondering how shadow changes are going to affect PVP. Self-healing gets more powerful as a form of mitigation as less DPS is coming in and that was one thing that made shadows such very powerful solo guards (if they could get off their TKTs).

[tourck]

Shadow / Assassin

-Don't nerf Kinetic Ward / Dark Ward more than maybe 5%. The gain from it should be quiet high to maintain the playstyle and importance of keeping it up.

 

I would say, DO NOT NERF ANYTHING! best way to piss people off and start loosing more subs...

[THoK-Zeus]

@KBNs first post: As you state that you did calculate all the average damage taken of all the tanks classes, i am sure you have a list of every area attack in dread fortress and Palace hm to calculate the self heals of powertechs/vanguards (i have seen powertechs with over 200 hps just with this ability).

 

Could you please post these list of area attacks from the new operations (i am very interested), also to prove that your calculations are correct.

Edited November 9, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[KeyboardNinja]

@KBNs first post: As you state that you did calculate all the average damage taken of all the tanks classes, i am sure you have a list of every area attack in dread fortress and Palace hm to calculate the self heals of powertechs/vanguards (i have seen powertechs with over 200 hps just with this ability).

 

Could you please post these list of area attacks from the new operations (i am very interested), also to prove that your calculations are correct.

 

I actually don't have a list of AoE abilities. I essentially just ignored the vanguard self-heals. I'm open to suggestions for a good way to deal with that point.

 

That might be enough to put vanguards in the same league as shadows, but it still leaves guardians far out in the cold.

[THoK-Zeus]

I actually don't have a list of AoE abilities. I essentially just ignored the vanguard self-heals. I'm open to suggestions for a good way to deal with that point.

 

That might be enough to put vanguards in the same league as shadows, but it still leaves guardians far out in the cold.

 

In my pve hybrid assassin tank guide there's a list of all the area attacks that i know for hm df/dp.

My Suggestion: Average HP of a bis vanguard * 0,025 * (how many times do area attacks happen per Encounter) / (time of the Encounter)

 

And then the average out of all 10 bosses.

 

Edit:

For Guardian Tanks: Did you account the 5% damage debuff on a boss for Guardian Tanks aswell? This debuff will generally always be present on a boss unless you run content with 2 juggernaut tanks and without any (Annihilation) marauder/ powertech dps (pretty unlikely).

If you account this debuff guardians will come quite close to assassins/powertechs in terms of average migation while maintaining slightly better defensive cooldowns. Sounds okay for me.

Edited November 9, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[steave]

Your numbers only assumed the buffs and debuffs available to each tank right?

Ops always bring 2 tanks, what happens if you assume the jugg/pt has a co-tank with him from a different class and thus have both the 5% accuraccy and 5% damage reduction applied, just like a sin does solo?

[KeyboardNinja]

For Guardian Tanks: Did you account the 5% damage debuff on a boss for Guardian Tanks aswell? This debuff will generally always be present on a boss unless you run content with 2 juggernaut tanks and without any (Annihilation) marauder/ powertech dps (pretty unlikely).

If you account this debuff guardians will come quite close to assassins/powertechs in terms of average migation while maintaining slightly better defensive cooldowns. Sounds okay for me.

 

I didn't, and that definitely brings the Jugg numbers up quite a bit. However, it would essentially mean that Juggernauts are dependent upon the presence of a *different* tank class (or an annihilation marauder) in order to be competitive. Jugg-Jugg is essentially a non-viable in such a group (Not Good Enough is one such group, iirc). No other doubled tank composition is penalized in this fashion.

 

So, I can include the DR buff for Juggs as well as for the other two, which would almost certainly even things up, but I'm really, really leery of doing that given what it implies about how ops groups need to be composed.

 

(incidentally, I don't account for the presence of an assassin in the powertech numbers, but powertechs have a better accuracy debuff anyway. due to the time averaging, if I add in an assassin, things go up even more, but by the same argument, adding a powertech to any other tank [including powertech] increases the value of the accuracy debuff)

Edited November 10, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[THoK-Zeus]

I didn't, and that definitely brings the Jugg numbers up quite a bit. However, it would essentially mean that Juggernauts are dependent upon the presence of a *different* tank class (or an annihilation marauder) in order to be competitive. Jugg-Jugg is essentially a non-viable in such a group (Not Good Enough is one such group, iirc). No other doubled tank composition is penalized in this fashion.

 

So, I can include the DR buff for Juggs as well as for the other two, which would almost certainly even things up, but I'm really, really leery of doing that given what it implies about how ops groups need to be composed.

 

(incidentally, I don't account for the presence of an assassin in the powertech numbers, but powertechs have a better accuracy debuff anyway. due to the time averaging, if I add in an assassin, things go up even more, but by the same argument, adding a powertech to any other tank [including powertech] increases the value of the accuracy debuff)

 

Yes, Jugg Jugg is essentially not that viable (as is powertech-powertech on certain bosses because of the lack of defensive cooldowns for some abilitys and sin sin (atleast in 2.4)).

 

Accuracy debuff (from sins) shouldn't be that much compared to 5% damage reducing debuff.

 

Well the problem i have is that you are arguing for balacing each tank class for hm df/dp on its own.

 

In my opinion it would be better to balance tank pairs, as you normally are not tanking hm df/dp alone .

 

For example i would like to see the difference between:

jugg/jugg jugg/sin Jugg/pt sin/sin sin/pt pt/pt

Edited November 10, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[steave]

Yes, Jugg Jugg is essentially not that viable (as is powertech-powertech on certain bosses because of the lack of defensive cooldowns for some abilitys and sin sin (atleast in 2.4)).

 

Accuracy debuff (from sins) shouldn't be that much compared to 5% damage reducing debuff.

 

Well the problem i have is that you are arguing for balacing each tank class for hm df/dp on its own.

 

In my opinion it would be better to balance tank pairs, as you normally are not tanking hm df/dp alone .

 

For example i would like to see the difference between:

jugg/jugg jugg/sin Jugg/pt sin/sin sin/pt pt/pt

 

Agreed, if you balance them all around bringing 2 tanks of the same class and juggs gain a larger benefit from being paired with an another class than the others do, then by the same reasoning you're using to claim that sins would be required in every op group, that would make having 1 jugg paired with something else required since they'd be way ahead with that support. The aoe taunt providing the entire raid with damage absorb shields is also pretty nice for burn phases and similar, but I'm not sure how much damage is actually prevented so maybe it's not a big deal.

[KeyboardNinja]

Agreed, if you balance them all around bringing 2 tanks of the same class and juggs gain a larger benefit from being paired with an another class than the others do, then by the same reasoning you're using to claim that sins would be required in every op group, that would make having 1 jugg paired with something else required since they'd be way ahead with that support. The aoe taunt providing the entire raid with damage absorb shields is also pretty nice for burn phases and similar, but I'm not sure how much damage is actually prevented so maybe it's not a big deal.

 

Each shield is 1.6k. Multiply that by 8 people and you get 12.8k damage absorbed overall.

[cs_zoltan]

Each shield is 1.6k. Multiply that by 8 people and you get 12.8k damage absorbed overall.

 

I thought the jugg tank who used the aoe taunt doesn't get the shield...

[TorvinAugeri]

I thought the jugg tank who used the aoe taunt doesn't get the shield...

We do get the particle effect. We should not be getting the shield itself.

Sonic Wall

 

Threatening Scream has a [50 / 100]% chance to protect all allies within range, excluding yourself, granting Sonic Wall, which absorbs a moderate amount of damage. Lasts 10 seconds.

The number of times I've popped Threatening Scream on accident while in chat on Fleet...

Edited November 11, 2013 by TorvinAugeri

[KeyboardNinja]

Incidentally, this is what the graph looks like if I assume that there is always a damage debuff in the group (assassin tank, powertech tank, or annihilation marauder): http://i.imgur.com/EJjXdkB.png I also changed the damage debuff to be multiplicative with DR rather than additive, since it…uh, isn't additive (attn dipstik).

 

Things are definitely a lot closer across the board, but guardians are still uncomfortably behind, especially on F/T-heavy content like DP. I haven't yet included vanguard HPS. I might just straight-up assume that they're going to have around 100-120 HPS on all content. I'm open to general approximations if we think they will be close enough.

Edited November 11, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[THoK-Zeus]

Incidentally, this is what the graph looks like if I assume that there is always a damage debuff in the group (assassin tank, powertech tank, or annihilation marauder): http://i.imgur.com/EJjXdkB.png I also changed the damage debuff to be multiplicative with DR rather than additive, since it…uh, isn't additive (attn dipstik).

 

Things are definitely a lot closer across the board, but guardians are still uncomfortably behind, especially on F/T-heavy content like DP. I haven't yet included vanguard HPS. I might just straight-up assume that they're going to have around 100-120 HPS on all content. I'm open to general approximations if we think they will be close enough.

 

What is with the assassin hybrid?

 

For Vanguard/Powertech hps from selfheal-aoe (not much data tough, but the numbers should more or less be ok):

Dread Fortress average: 63 hps

Dread Palace average: 89 hps

Edited!

Edited November 14, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[KeyboardNinja]

What is with the assassin hybrid?

 

LOL I'm irrationally resistant to the hybrid because I really don't want to have to play it (so booooorrrrrring). It really would be nice to have a good way to classify AoE attacks (preferably automatically) so that we can do some precise analysis.

[THoK-Zeus]

LOL I'm irrationally resistant to the hybrid because I really don't want to have to play it (so booooorrrrrring). It really would be nice to have a good way to classify AoE attacks (preferably automatically) so that we can do some precise analysis.

 

Close and Personal selfheal procs from powertechs is a very easy way i now use (before i was comparing dmg difference between hybrid and Standard build ^^ ). The list in my guide should be more or less complete (atleast with aoe attacks that hit tanks).

 

And i dont think it's that boring to hold threat anymore with a hybrid build , also makes using stealth more interesting, etc...

Edited November 12, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[Vaidinah]

Each shield is 1.6k. Multiply that by 8 people and you get 12.8k damage absorbed overall.

 

The shield is not affected by the Juggernaught's set bonus when used in the AoE taunt. It only applies to Force Scream/Blade Storm. As already mentioned as well, the AoE taunt doesn't buff the Juggernaught himself.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Vaidinah

[Tsura]

I actually don't have a list of AoE abilities. I essentially just ignored the vanguard self-heals. I'm open to suggestions for a good way to deal with that point.

 

I haven't done all new bosses on HM but from those that I have done:

 

DP (http://www.torparse.com/a/492529)

Bestia: 162 HPS

Tyrans: 210 HPS

Calphayus: 47 HPS

 

DF (http://www.torparse.com/a/491252)

Nefra: 230 HPS

Draxus: 90 HPS

Grob'thok: 34 HPS (no healing needed)

 

Probably by better usage of Shoulder Canon and Kolto Overload I could bump those numbers a bit. For example on Tyrans fight I used Shoulder Cannon just once which resulted in 30 HPS (Just cannon). During the 5 minute fight I should use it 2 more times and bump my HPS by another 60, resulting in 270 total HPS on this boss.

 

How those numbers put PT Tank in tanking table? Closer do Assassins (pre2.5 and post 2.5)

Edited November 14, 2013 by Tsura

[Zoom_VI]

I actually feel pretty darn powerful on my shadow tank in PvP even today, now that I'm running not-PvE gear. I've literally done things like surviving solo on a side node in CW against 4-5 of the opposing team while waiting for my team to respawn and/or rotate. Granted, some of that is gear, and a large part of it is the opposition simply failing to focus target, but I don't think I would have been able to do it if the class were particularly far behind the other tanks in PvP.

 

(incidentally, I've seen jugg tanks perform similar feats as well)

To be fair, shadow/sin tanks are the best class in game for guarding side nodes, but since 8v8 has been replaced by 4v4 the only thing that matters is its ability to frontline tank. However the 2.5 armor buffs should rectify that. The problem isn't that the class isnt broken, but both it and 36pt vg tank is far enough behind jugs as frontline tanks, that there is a definitive disadvantage to not using a jug tank, and there are almost no advantages that VG and Shadow have over Guardians.

 

PvP tank balance is really hard to judge. It varies so much based on what the opposition is doing, how well they focus fire, what your healers are like, and even how good of a tank you are. If you aren't guard swapping and peeling appropriately, you will take less damage just as a function of not doing your job. Not saying that's what was happening to you, but it's a factor to consider in general. All I'm saying is that it's really, really hard to take the results from a couple warzones and point at one class or another and talk about balance.

 

Well, its not so much the result of a couple warzones, for instance pior to 2.4 nearly every single ranked team ran a guardian/juggernaut. The only thing that changed that in 2.4 was that a particular VG hybrid running dps gear became the FOTM but that is due to best defense comes from best offense not due to the classes actual tanking ability.

 

The changes I propose would definitely make Juggs a fair bit sturdier in PvP, especially given the abundance of force/tech attacks relative to melee/ranged. Whether that is overpowered is definitely an open question. I think defensive cooldowns (where Juggs are strongest) are definitely more impactful in PvP than they are in PvE, especially in arenas due to the reset. I don't know. Balance is really tricky. I think the changes I proposed make mathematical sense, particularly in PvE, but they would need to be tested very carefully to ensure that they don't unbalance the PvP metagame.

 

Given that in arenas HP generally rides high then gets spiked really low, tanking effectiveness is often more about a classes ability to dig itself out of the spike rather than overall damage taken.

But its not just cooldowns. The current Juggernaut mechanics are favorable in a PvP scenario. There is the obvious easy access to flat DR via crushing blow. On top of that you have Sonic Barrier, while SB doesn't scale to damage taken, it also mitigates all damage of any type, and is controllable. It may only last a GCD but that's a GCD for the healer to emergency medpack. SB is also more than sufficient for eating a couple GCDs worth of guard damage.

 

Of course most of the time the tank isn't being focused - that only happens if a spike renders the tank vulnerable. Guarding ability is the real test. Guardian is the only tank AC that was a away to protect allies outside of the Guard & taunt system. Intercede, which both gives DR and is a second gap closer. Sonic Wall is additional protection. The fact that guardian has two leaps, one of which can be reset and also has a talent for reducing its cooldown, means that guardian has the best tools for staying in guard range

 

The other issue is that for PvP you can equate a tank's worth by its CC, as CC is in a sense a DcD, and its one that can benefit any group member or be used offensively. Someone at 5% life? AoE mezz, and then two hardstuns after that, and push of course.

 

In short..

Most of this is not directly related to the tank's mathematical ability to mitigate damage. But the thing that has to be remembered is that in terms of keeping themselves alive (keeping alive =/= best mitigation) Guardians are the best by far, and if you wish to buff their mitigation further for PvE, something else has to give somewhere, be it utility, CC, DcDs, or just rearranging how guardian tanks work. (Less flat DR and SB, more traditional RNG mechanics)

 

In PvP overall mitigation is secondary to spike survivability, something that Guardians already proved superior with NiM TFB and S&V

Edited November 14, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[akabane_k]

now that NDA is lifted, I can say armor bonus from swelling shadows was nerfed from 40% to 20%.

[Hockaday]

now that NDA is lifted, I can say armor bonus from swelling shadows was nerfed from 40% to 20%.

 

Eh...you might want to recheck that.

 

But, I think the real problem here is hungering.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Hockaday

[Narciuss]

The answer, is that your NDA will lift this Thursday, November 14th at 9AM PST // 11am CST

 

 

Jedi Consular

 

Shadow

General

 

Combat Technique no longer heals the Shadow. The ability now increases armor rating by 130% (up from 115%) and deals additional threat when it damages an enemy target.

Slightly increased the damage dealt by Shadow Strike.

Slightly increased the damage dealt by Whirling Blow.

While Battle Readiness is active, the active Technique now heals the Shadow when it triggers its effect. UPDATED 11/1

Shadow Strike has had its cost reduced to 40 Force (down from 50). UPDATED 11/1

The damage dealt by Shadow Strike compared to the last PTS testing phase has been reduced; damage compared to Live servers is unchanged.* UPDATED 11/1

Force Breach now works properly while in Combat Technique.* UPDATED 11/1

 

Kinetic Combat

 

Three stacks of Harnessed Shadows no longer cause the Shadow to be healed when Telekinetic Throw deals damage. Instead, the skill grants Shadow Protection, which increases damage reduction by 1%. Shadow Protection stacks up to four times and lasts 18 seconds.

Rapid Recovery has been renamed Elusiveness and has been redesigned: the skill now increases the armor rating Combat Technique grants by an additional 10%/20%. (Down from 20/40% in the previous PTS testing phase.*) UPDATED 11/1

Elusiveness has been renamed Rapid Recovery; the skill’s effects have not changed.

Shadow Wrap now additionally grants 2/4 stacks of Shadow Protection when the Shadow exits stealth. UPDATED 11/1

Shadow Protection, which is granted by Harnessed Shadows and Shadow Wrap, now lasts 12 seconds (down from 18). UPDATED 11/1

Edited November 14, 2013 by Narciuss

[Hockaday]

Yes, but if you read. It says those changes will -not- go live. They were for testing.

[Narciuss]

I can read, but why not post this so people can see?

[Leafy_Bug]

Hmm they are already nerfing the buffs of the nerfs of the buffs ? What gives? I only ask because last time they nerfed the buffs they were giving shadows, Austin Peckebaugh said that if there are problems they will fix them on the spot. On the spot meaning after 1 year it seems. So if the shadow tank ends up worse that it is now in every area, then faith in humanity is not restored.