Justify smash. Do it.

[Zunayson]

Cute, really cute. I love it when people throw around the term "Troll" and don't know what it means.

 

The damage isn't the issue in itself, it's the ease of use, the autocrit, the amount of damage, and the inability to escape/avoid it unless you are an assassin or a BH/Trooper.

 

If the autocrit and damage multiplier only applied to the targeted enemy, it'd be fine i think. But people like you who cannot justify it in it's current state, decide to get all defensive and resort to personal attacks because you don't seem to be able to argue your point without throwing around terms you don't understand.

 

The ease of use? really? This is an mmo, it's all nothing but pressing buttons. you shouldn't say the ease of use. you should say the ease of figuring out the most optimal rotation; the hardest class to play, once figured out, is just as easy as smash in the sense that you press buttons.

 

The autocrit seems to be synonymous with amount of damage, you're just listing autocrit as a way to make your argument seem more massive. You're really just looking for extraneous details that support your point of view.

 

The amount of damage in total is simply a result of it being aoe - dot spreading does the same thing, but nobody is complaining about pyro, madness, or lethality.... because dots don't kill.

 

As for inability to escape it, you also cannot escape a majority of other moves which are force/tech. What's more, is that smash is actually easier to escape then let's say immolate for example. Immolate needs a concrete target - and when used it WILL fire (buddump pshhhh) off and it will almost always hit. Smash, when used, will not always hit the target with proper use of kiting and los. It works.

[alexsamma]

You know why smash is okay: Stuns, roots, mezzes, knock backs, knock backs with long roots attached, knock downs... and a resolve system so broken that your opponents do not even need to pay attention to your buffs to avoid Combat/Carnage's burst because you can throw out CC casually.

 

Fix resolve, give combat/carnage a more dependable proc system that is not so easy to shutdown, and move some of the defensive buffs out of rage/focus into combat/carnage and I promise you'll see less smash, though the level of QQ will probably increase since combat/carnage's single target burst is much more deadly (when you can get it off) than smash.

[JP_Legatus]

The burden of proof is on the accuser. Make a case for how/why smash is overpowered.

 

This isn't the United States Justice Department. Not everything here needs be "innocent until proven guilty". I'd rather have rotated overpowered classes than leave one overpowered for 2 years because they couldn't justify a nerf.

 

Having said that, smash probably is less good in 4v4 than it was in 8v8. Idk though not really going to put a lot of thought into it because really who cares about pvp balance in a game nobody plays anymore I'm all about dat spaceship pvp that's coming out soon.

Edited October 12, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[NathanielStarr]

It seems there are a few underpowered classes and that is the issue, but those underpowered classes are about right for PvE so the more fortunate classes will be nerfed.

 

Really smash could keep it's damage as far as I am concerned but their defenses make them tanks. So you have them performing 2 rolls (tank/dps). This has regulated tanks to healer babysitting and made them undesirable in PvP settings. Why should 1 class play the part of 2?

[JP_Legatus]

It seems there are a few underpowered classes and that is the issue, but those underpowered classes are about right for PvE so the more fortunate classes will be nerfed.

 

Really smash could keep it's damage as far as I am concerned but their defenses make them tanks. So you have them performing 2 rolls (tank/dps). This has regulated tanks to healer babysitting and made them undesirable in PvP settings. Why should 1 class play the part of 2?

 

It's really only maras that have this issue imo. Juggs drop pretty easily when focused. Maybe 2 juggs cross taunting would work good idk (i doubt it'd be OP), but I think 2 maras is just way better because of undying and camo, not because of the damage or the non-undying, non-camo survivability. I think those two moves just have too short a cooldown for how good they are, and having two moves like that is overkill as it is.

Edited October 12, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[NathanielStarr]

It's really only maras that have this issue imo. Juggs drop pretty easily when focused. Maybe 2 juggs cross taunting would work good idk (i doubt it'd be OP), but I think 2 maras is just way better because of undying and camo, not because of the damage or the non-undying, non-camo survivability. I think those two moves just have too short a cooldown for how good they are, and having two moves like that is overkill as it is.

 

I agree camo lets you play lke an idiot and bite off more than you can chew and still survive. You should at least have to play half smart, but it's an incredibly good escape.

[alexsamma]

You know why smash is okay: Stuns, roots, mezzes, knock backs, knock backs with long roots attached, knock downs... and a resolve system so broken that your opponents do not even need to pay attention to your buffs to avoid Combat/Carnage's burst because you can throw out CC casually.

 

Fix resolve, give combat/carnage a more dependable proc system that is not so easy to shutdown, and move some of the defensive buffs out of rage/focus into combat/carnage and I promise you'll see less smash, though the level of QQ will probably increase since combat/carnage's single target burst is much more deadly (when you can get it off) than smash.

[ellrochell]

Its OP to the fact that it holds records for most dps, pre 2.4 a smash monkey had 2.9k dps (something close to that) in a wz and held the record strong above a multi dotting range class that at best was 2.3k. Its the fact that its very easy to get high numbers with. People going on about powertechs and such can hit that hard but they don't understand how the auto crit is just insane. Imagine if shoot first was auto crit people would be like OMGTHISISSOOVERPOWERED. This is the scoundrels (single target hardest hitting ability) that does less than smash. I mean I play a mara as my main and the other 2 specs in pvp are just terrible in damage output compared to this, there is no other pvp class/spec that can keep up with the damage output, this is why its OP.

[ellrochell]

http://tofn.rl-web.net/ the facts are here, so try and justify why your classinst there with 3k.

[ellrochell]

while you're at take a peek at the healing section and tell me that's not ****ed up.

[Savej]

This isn't the United States Justice Department. Not everything here needs be "innocent until proven guilty". I'd rather have rotated overpowered classes than leave one overpowered for 2 years because they couldn't justify a nerf...

 

Much of the legal system was setup to create a fair way to argue (and settle arguments); it's worth looking at.

 

Standard troll argument goes like this: make a claim ("smashers are op" or "Michael Jackson was a fruitcake"), imply there's a consensus on that opinion and then say he's right unless someone proves him wrong. If he doesn't say what his definition of OP is or what makes Smashers OP there's no way prove him wrong (nor is there a real reason to concede that he's right). I'm not saying smashers aren't op'd, maybe they are in some way, but making nerfs based on open-ended arguments like his are exactly where I don't want to go (with any game). For that matter there have been plenty of times when the consensus amongst board posters here has been wrong; consensus is not enough.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Savej

[NathanielStarr]

You know why smash is okay: Stuns, roots, mezzes, knock backs, knock backs with long roots attached, knock downs... and a resolve system so broken that your opponents do not even need to pay attention to your buffs to avoid Combat/Carnage's burst because you can throw out CC casually.

 

Fix resolve, give combat/carnage a more dependable proc system that is not so easy to shutdown, and move some of the defensive buffs out of rage/focus into combat/carnage and I promise you'll see less smash, though the level of QQ will probably increase since combat/carnage's single target burst is much more deadly (when you can get it off) than smash.

 

I disagree because of their mobility. They can leap to you with one press of a button not to mention that most of their defenses have shorter timers than the so called defenses you listed above. Besides we aren't all snipers either. Snipers are the ones with greater access to the tools listed.

Edited October 12, 2013 by NathanielStarr

[masih_ad_dajjal]

Snipe/Gun focus fire is better and more effective than smash.

 

Endgame max dps stats can be miss leading sometimes.

[Ren_simp]

Wrong thread Edited October 12, 2013 by Ren_simp

[Raazmir]

Smash Justified.

 

It is the marauder cooldowns more than the smash mechanics that are making the spec so powerful and overused. The problem is less in the rage tree, and more in the marauder class cooldowns. Smash juggs aren't nearly as fearsome as the marauder version.

[Lexlo]

I don't really mind the burst damage. The spec is designed to do just that. The problem I have with it is how easy it is to pull the combo off and what little the opposition can do to prevent it from happening.

 

This game *REALLY* needs an overhaul to make it easier to counter play to mitigate your opponent's strengths instead of just brute forcing everything and everyone with insane DPS, stun locking and/or other 1-and-done mechanics.

 

Right now, there's not a whole lot of interaction going on with smash besides "hit enrage, leap + smash" and guarantee a big hit as long as you aren't taunted. It's quite a repetitive game mechanic and really diminishes the potential that this game's PvP could achieve (present bugs/neglect aside).

 

And I'm not trying to pick on Juggernauts and Marauders. I think there are plenty of other classes that could use some re-tuning or re-tooling to make their combat experiences more fulfilling and less one-dimensional.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Lexlo

[headshot_hendo]

Ok look smash is not broken it's like any other tree the rage tree without smash would do horrible damage.

In vengeance smash does 2-4k maybe but ravage hits like a truck along with impale and shatter Plus dots.

Without the minor boost to other attacks after smash scream hits for 4-6k ravage hits for maybe 9k and is easily interrupted and obliterate hits for 5-7k. This being said the spec has not dots or other means of competitive dps smash makes the spec worth while.

Smash may be fairly easy to play but it is not easy to play it extremely well I constantly see horrible marauder and jug smasher who barely break 250k in full length voidstar.

Smash is easy to negate if you are smart enough to create distance and utilize the tools you are given.

That all being said quit ************ and learn to play verse multiple classes and quit standing in smashes DUMMY!!!!!

[Kontraz]

Smash may be fairly easy to play but it is not easy to play it extremely well I constantly see horrible marauder and jug smasher who barely break 250k in full length voidstar.

Smash is easy to negate if you are smart enough to create distance and utilize the tools you are given.

 

Sorry, but that's almost exactly what was said about pyro pt before 1.6, and they were nerfed into oblivion. Even after the 2.4 buff, there is still no real reason to ever play one.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Kontraz

[beattlebilly]

Not really, i kill them frequently if they aren't being healed, but they get me down to low health with one button, and it's annoying.

 

I want to see the monkeys justify why they deserve to get the mini-nuke.

 

If they get you down to low health with one button/hit, it isn't smash that's the problem.

 

I'm just amazed you actually expected a proper discussion on beating dead horses.

Edited October 12, 2013 by beattlebilly

[Raansu]

Sorry, but that's almost exactly what was said about pyro pt before 1.6, and they were nerfed into oblivion. Even after the 2.4 buff, there is still no real reason to ever play one.

 

Pyro PT's are fine now. Prior to 2.0 they were broken, after 2.0 yes they got over nerfed, but atm they are sitting in a decent place. Ion pulse needs to go back to 100% chance to trigger plasma cell and HiB could hit a little bit harder, but aside from that they are fine now.

[easeyway]

The burden of proof is on the accuser. Make a case for how/why smash is overpowered.

 

Hehehoho...

 

Maybe because the devs have already stated marauder smash is currently:

 

The best sustained DPS spec in the game.

The best burst DPS spec in the game.

The best defenses/utilities among all other DPS classes.

 

Apparently in your world that's not overpowered. May I ask if you play a smash marauder?

Edited October 12, 2013 by easeyway

[VulgarMercurius]

Standard smash does at least 8k. My health is 30k. 30k-8k = 22k, Assuming he opened on me with smash, So in one attack i lost a about a third of my total health, This puts me at half, which is "Danger level" or low when fighting against good focus groups.

 

LMAO I thought my math was bad. 8 out of 30 isn't a third, and it certainly isn't half... I mean *** are you even trying to say?

[TheCourier-]

Hehehoho...

 

Maybe because the devs have already stated marauder smash is currently:

 

The best sustained DPS spec in the game.

The best burst DPS spec in the game.

The best defenses/utilities among all other DPS classes.

 

Apparently in your world that's not overpowered. May I ask if you play a smash marauder?

 

The devs did not say that smash is the strongest spec in the game. Right now carnage, marksmanship, lethality, annihilation, arsenal, and lightning parse more single target DPS than rage spec.

[TheCourier-]

Smash Justified.

 

It is the marauder cooldowns more than the smash mechanics that are making the spec so powerful and overused. The problem is less in the rage tree, and more in the marauder class cooldowns. Smash juggs aren't nearly as fearsome as the marauder version.

 

Annihilation and carnage specs need marauders defensive CDs.

[easeyway]

The devs did not say that smash is the strongest spec in the game. Right now carnage, marksmanship, lethality, annihilation, arsenal, and lightning parse more single target DPS than rage spec.

 

Was I talking about single target?

 

The keywords were sustained, burst, and defence + utility.

 

Sorry, the game isn't 1v1, yet.

 

And, I don't care one bit if a spec is better in PvE, as long as all specs are VIABLE.

 

In PvP, a spec being better than others makes others NOT VIABLE. This is not the case in PvE. All the devs need to make sure in PvE, is so that all specs can clear content. Ok, too great differences and the PvE growd starts yelling, so they need to keep the specs somewhat close.

 

But think about it: spec A running dungeon X easier than you does not take away your ability to clear dungeon X in spec B. That spec A will ruin the content for you in spec B in warzone Y, however.

 

So, as far as balancing goes. As long as this game has PvP in it, they need to balance PvP first, PvE second.

Edited October 12, 2013 by easeyway