Now that BW has actually listened to our outcries...

[Guiken]

Not much of a change for sintanks in PvP.... ***. Are you joking? Sintank in PvP has been hit extremely hard by this.

[helpmewin]

7700 by smash - now 7200(with 4 stacks SP). WoW extremaly buffed. But without SH they lost good survivability mechanic and lost any spot for team. Edited December 9, 2013 by helpmewin

[Duco]

I am deeply saddened by this change.

 

I played assasin because it was a self-healing tank with stealth.

 

Now it is just a random tank, even the active mitigation sucks because it will fall off at bad times, but in essence the class is not what i rolled it for anymore.

 

Really bad change, really sad. I come back to swtor for some months every now and then, and when i came back this time all i could think was there was nothing i wanted to play anymore.

[helpmewin]

I am deeply saddened by this change.

 

I played assasin because it was a self-healing tank with stealth.

 

Now it is just a random tank, even the active mitigation sucks because it will fall off at bad times, but in essence the class is not what i rolled it for anymore.

 

Really bad change, really sad. I come back to swtor for some months every now and then, and when i came back this time all i could think was there was nothing i wanted to play anymore.

 

Agreed with u. I think most of the player played sin tanks cause he had unique mechanic and they don't care about worst he is or the best. Now he is lost this mechanic and he worts tank wich can be chosen(there is better tanks to roll). Sadly.

Edited December 9, 2013 by helpmewin

[Vember]

 

I don't understand how people can think that by tuning us for the highest level of competitiveness, that it could somehow break us for content that is easier.

 

 

That's exactly what it did. Sin tanks took a hit in pvp due to this change.

[THoK-Zeus]

That's exactly what it did. Sin tanks took a hit in pvp due to this change.

 

Pvp damage is higher then Operation damage.

[Simmerr]

That's exactly what it did. Sin tanks took a hit in pvp due to this change.

 

A flat armor buff and loss of a minor amount of self heals broke us for pvp? You know that 10k smash doesn't care if you can heal 1.2k of it afterwards, because you're already dead by that time. Any time you now have to channel FL, you would have had to channel it to get your self heals.

 

Where is the class breaking part? Please explain

[Vember]

A flat armor buff and loss of a minor amount of self heals broke us for pvp? You know that 10k smash doesn't care if you can heal 1.2k of it afterwards, because you're already dead by that time. Any time you now have to channel FL, you would have had to channel it to get your self heals.

 

Where is the class breaking part? Please explain

 

I didn't say it broke the class, I said we took a hit. Why would I explain something you purposely took out of context?

 

As for how it effected us in pvp, even though we take slightly less damage per ability, our effective hp is lower due to not being able to regain any health back, as opposed to the way it was in 2.4.

[helpmewin]

A flat armor buff and loss of a minor amount of self heals broke us for pvp? You know that 10k smash doesn't care if you can heal 1.2k of it afterwards, because you're already dead by that time. Any time you now have to channel FL, you would have had to channel it to get your self heals.

 

Where is the class breaking part? Please explain

 

Omg. What gear u have my little PvE crab? 10K smash on sin tank? Lol? 1400 exp? Yes if u que as shadow tank with PvE gear u get smash 10K. If u always get smash while u are tanking on arena ur team will **** you in 2 ears(play as tank not as DPS ur crap DPS is not help). And this DR buff will not safe u. Yes this DR buff is good for NiM tanking. But deleted SH destroy sin tank unique survivability mechanic in PvP and only 1 thing that helps sin tank keep afloat is respec to hybrid like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MsroddfdMZfrzRkMZb.3 (Roudy use this spec btw). And yes BW destroy full tank spec for PvP. SH is exelent for sin cause he have 10m tanking and can live very long time with this. But with this changes u can be only hybrid. 7.5% DR not safe u in PvP. This DR buff not tradeable for SH as i said cause this thing 1. lower ur survivability (yes ur spiky will be lower but survivability lower too) 2.destroy unique survivability mechanic in this spec for PvP.

Edited December 9, 2013 by helpmewin

[Sturus]

Old CE from the start. Sin darkness tank in pvp and pve. Never thought I think about going to a other game in a lot time. But no more self healing takes the fun from the class. Why BW why? You started the game hey Sin darkness is a self heal tank. Like the blood DK and the Shadow knight. Well no WOW for me. But EQ next hell ESO you can point your points were you like and pick a self heal or what you like. I so much would love to be playing SWTOR in 6-10 years. Play all classes and Sin darkness was the most fun I ever had in a game. Look at my post history. I do not post before this 2.5 nerf. Give darkness self healing back. I never QQ about how spikey before 2.5. Who ask for no self heals? Well I know me and three others that this is a deal breaker and stopped paying for SWTOR. Praying you open your eyes.

[Evolixe]

Let's all just be perfectly honest. Maul did not need a buff.

 

It didn't really get one. Cost reduction.. hasn't got much of an effect except that it doesn't make us completely useless within 20 seconds of the initiation of combat.

[Sarafain]

From a PvE deception perspective I wish it was the other way around.

 

Reduced cost on VS would mean fewer saber strikes and probably balance the slight gain in dmg and if Maul dmg had been increased we'd see a double benefit.

 

Atleast we got a 2.%(ish) increase... only 7.5%(ish) to be on par

 

Darkness. If you look at crushing blow for juggs it's a 20 second duration on a 12 second CD. Darkness have to keep a TIGHT rotation for 12 second buff... seems legit

 

Madness, oh wait nothing changed.

[Simmerr]

I don't understand how people can think that by tuning us for the highest level of competitiveness, that it could somehow break us for content that is easier.

 

That's exactly what it did. Sin tanks took a hit in pvp due to this change.

 

I didn't say it broke the class, I said we took a hit. Why would I explain something you purposely took out of context?

 

As for how it effected us in pvp, even though we take slightly less damage per ability, our effective hp is lower due to not being able to regain any health back, as opposed to the way it was in 2.4.

 

Perhaps you could explain it now that I've shown you the context...

 

What I'm saying is that the minimal amount of self healing we receive in pvp, compared to the massive amount of burst damage we take makes it easier to see how this buff is more useful than the marginal self heals we were getting, when nobody was attacking us. Because really, if you were doing your job right, you'd be taking way more damage than your self heals would put a dent in.

[Simmerr]

Omg. What gear u have my little PvE crab? 10K smash on sin tank? Lol? 1400 exp? Yes if u que as shadow tank with PvE gear u get smash 10K. If u always get smash while u are tanking on arena ur team will **** you in 2 ears(play as tank not as DPS ur crap DPS is not help). And this DR buff will not safe u. Yes this DR buff is good for NiM tanking. But deleted SH destroy sin tank unique survivability mechanic in PvP and only 1 thing that helps sin tank keep afloat is respec to hybrid like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MsroddfdMZfrzRkMZb.3 (Roudy use this spec btw). And yes BW destroy full tank spec for PvP. SH is exelent for sin cause he have 10m tanking and can live very long time with this. But with this changes u can be only hybrid. 7.5% DR not safe u in PvP. This DR buff not tradeable for SH as i said cause this thing 1. lower ur survivability (yes ur spiky will be lower but survivability lower too) 2.destroy unique survivability mechanic in this spec for PvP.

 

This hurts to read, but the fact is that no matter how big of a crit you are taking, it will not be shielded, which is why a DR increase is needed. On top of that, if that crit, or a couple of people hitting you with big hits focus you (like people do in pvp) then you will be dead long before you can channel your 4 stacks of self heals from force lightning, making the mitigation provided by it completely useless. Pro-active mitigation is way better than reactive mitigation as a tank, because you can't mitigate things with heals when you're dead.

 

I'm also not sure why you'd skip taking wither in pvp, where people tend to bunch up, and where it provides a flat 5% damage decrease to all who it hits.

 

Again you touch on "uniqueness," which many have, but there is no reason that being "unique" should trump being competitive with the other classes that are being chosen instead of us.

 

Sorry for the double post but I wanted to keep it separate.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Simmerr

[Neoforcer]

I hit a geared shadow tank for 12k maul can I get a cookie.

[IInox]

From a PvE deception perspective I wish it was the other way around.

 

Reduced cost on VS would mean fewer saber strikes and probably balance the slight gain in dmg and if Maul dmg had been increased we'd see a double benefit.

 

Atleast we got a 2.%(ish) increase... only 7.5%(ish) to be on par

 

Darkness. If you look at crushing blow for juggs it's a 20 second duration on a 12 second CD. Darkness have to keep a TIGHT rotation for 12 second buff... seems legit

 

Madness, oh wait nothing changed.

 

I agree, reduce cost of VS was a better choice than a dmg increase.

[Vember]

Perhaps you could explain it now that I've shown you the context...

 

What I'm saying is that the minimal amount of self healing we receive in pvp, compared to the massive amount of burst damage we take makes it easier to see how this buff is more useful than the marginal self heals we were getting, when nobody was attacking us. Because really, if you were doing your job right, you'd be taking way more damage than your self heals would put a dent in.

 

The clarification is in the same post you quoted. Picking one line without applying the supporting sentence is a perfect example of taking something out of context.

 

As to the rest of it, the DR is also marginal. The self healing created greater effective hp in most situations in pvp. The self healing used to be phenomenal and was heavily nerfed, along with our armor. The devs took the lazy way out on this change, and some people in our community encouraged it, because it made raid tanking easier. Those people know who they are, and now they're facing a backlash for it.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Vember

[helpmewin]

This hurts to read, but the fact is that no matter how big of a crit you are taking, it will not be shielded, which is why a DR increase is needed. On top of that, if that crit, or a couple of people hitting you with big hits focus you (like people do in pvp) then you will be dead long before you can channel your 4 stacks of self heals from force lightning, making the mitigation provided by it completely useless. Pro-active mitigation is way better than reactive mitigation as a tank, because you can't mitigate things with heals when you're dead.

 

I'm also not sure why you'd skip taking wither in pvp, where people tend to bunch up, and where it provides a flat 5% damage decrease to all who it hits.

 

Again you touch on "uniqueness," which many have, but there is no reason that being "unique" should trump being competitive with the other classes that are being chosen instead of us.

 

Sorry for the double post but I wanted to keep it separate.

 

I'm really tired to whining on forums and saw how BW nerfing this spec since beta. If smdy think this is good im not. Without self healing this spec is not fun - i don't want to play anymore in this spec and this class. I don't care about any1 whining about spiky. I don't have any spike in PvE and PvP. SH helps me a lot in PvP, mb less in PvE. This spec was fun i played in this spec almost 2 years and now when they destroy my lovly spec and PvP i will wait TESO or WildStar. This game is ruining in hell. I don't want to faceroll, don't want that this spec will be OP, if i want it i can respec in infitration. But i don't this spec was fun to play with unique mechanic, now not.

If BW don't care their PvP community - i will simly quit this game.

Sorry for my english.

Edited December 10, 2013 by helpmewin

[Simmerr]

The clarification is in the same post you quoted. Picking one line without applying the supporting sentence is a perfect example of taking something out of context.

 

As to the rest of it, the DR is also marginal. The self healing created greater effective hp in most situations in pvp. The self healing used to be phenomenal and was heavily nerfed, along with our armor. The devs took the lazy way out on this change, and some people in our community encouraged it, because it made raid tanking easier. Those people know who they are, and now they're facing a backlash for it.

 

Your supporting sentence contradicts the initial contradiction with my sentence saying that it did not break pvp. But this much is irrelevant.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing all this math you've done that proves our self heals provide a greater EHP than the new DR and armor buffs, but even if presented, one flaw remains.

 

For you to account self heals int EHP, you must survive long enough to recover HP via FL. This is where, even if we have a smaller EHP amount, pro-active mitigation is better than reactive mitigation. I'm sure I've said it before, but those godly self heals that can totally save your life when being focused do not work when you are dead. They work great when you're left alone to do whatever you want, while taking minimal splash damage and not redirecting damage with a guard, but when you really start to take the damage, they are not as useful as a flat dmg reduction buff.

[Simmerr]

I'm really tired to whining on forums and saw how BW nerfing this spec since beta. If smdy think this is good im not. Without self healing this spec is not fun - i don't want to play anymore in this spec and this class. I don't care about any1 whining about spiky. I don't have any spike in PvE and PvP. SH helps me a lot in PvP, mb less in PvE. This spec was fun i played in this spec almost 2 years and now when they destroy my lovly spec and PvP i will wait TESO or WildStar. This game is ruining in hell. I don't want to faceroll, don't want that this spec will be OP, if i want it i can respec in infitration. But i don't this spec was fun to play with unique mechanic, now not.

If BW don't care their PvP community - i will simly quit this game.

Sorry for my english.

 

Fair enough, if you were that invested on how the class felt to you, and the exact same rotation is no longer fun to do because you don't see green numbers anymore, then you have a right to not be happy.

 

I won't tell you what is or isn't fun, and I'm sorry that being a viable tank in all parts of the game isn't fun for you.

[helpmewin]

Fair enough, if you were that invested on how the class felt to you, and the exact same rotation is no longer fun to do because you don't see green numbers anymore, then you have a right to not be happy.

 

I won't tell you what is or isn't fun, and I'm sorry that being a viable tank in all parts of the game isn't fun for you.

 

Lol? I SAID SH HELPS ME A LOT. Caps is enough to see? They always been node guarders and will be. Stop talking nonsense. If u don't uderstand basic tasks of ur class stop write on this forum. They are not viable as main tanks and this changes makes much worse for full tank tree and buff for hybrids. Other 2 tanks is much better for PvP(arenas) as main tanks. 3.5% DR and 4% that really impossible to keep up(trade for the best SH) in PvP that changes will support only PvE crabs ,that thinking they know something about balance in PvP and this spec in PvP.

Yes this changes good for less spiky in NiM content, but please stop talking nonsense about buff for PvP, this is nerf for PvP. As i said what tank need for PvP 1. DR 2. SH 3. Utilities to prevent enemy's dmg(cd-s, controls, debuffs). Shadow worst in this 3 parametrs.

Stop talking about spiky and mitigation this is PvE identification, cause in PvE all attacks you in PvP all attacks your mates.

Edited December 11, 2013 by helpmewin

[DarrelK]

Highest rating in team ranked Shadow/Sin mostly plays tank in arenas.... Just sayin'.

[helpmewin]

Highest rating in team ranked Shadow/Sin mostly plays tank in arenas.... Just sayin'.

 

Are u from TOFN? First of all he is hybrid, second he is playing with one of the top players on our sever( who didn't quit). There is only 2 team who que for arenas always( Roudy's static and DRAMA). Others are random statics. There is no challenge for them, they dominate and play almost every day.

Edited December 11, 2013 by helpmewin