Please switch the engine now before its too late..

[Arkerus]

The statement you quoted is about growth in revenue from online purchases.

 

Your biased interpretation of that is missing two key elements:

 

1) Before the cash shop and the paid expansion there was no way to buy anything for TOR in an online purchase. Hence growing from zero is simple.

 

2) TOR's initial performance was pathetic, roughly 25% of their projections. If that doubled to 50% of their projections... awesome growth, but still terrible performance vs projections.

 

Sustained growth means whatever they are making now is more than before, quarter after quarter. Everyone knows TOR lost subs in year one. Welcome to 2013 CK. Enjoy your stay.

 

I've never seen so many people who play the game try to ruin any good news because the game didn't fit their perfect little model of what an MMO should be.

 

I think some people are just mad because video game companies realized that they are not the target market. Yeah. You aren't special. Companies don't care about you because you can't be pleased. No one is wasting money of you because you don't matter. You're just another over the hill gamer who can't keep up with the times.

 

But in the end it really doesn't matter because EA is obviously making bank off this game and we have a huge space update on the horizon. The game has made leaps and bounds in the past year after the initial loss of subs. It will change and it will grow and it will be at its own pace.

 

You can wail and moan all you want but you can't stop it. The only thing you can do is claim to drop your sub and keeping posting on a forum of a game you claim you don't even play. Kind of odd behavior for someone who doesn't even use the product.

[Arkerus]

At least final fantasy admitted it sucked and did something about it. Bioware will do neither

 

They didn't change the engine. Entirely difference scenario. They rebuilt the mechanics of the game in the same engine.

[mmjarec]

They didn't change the engine. Entirely difference scenario. They rebuilt the mechanics of the game in the same engine.

 

Ok so change the mechanics too

[Rafaman]

They didn't change the engine. Entirely difference scenario. They rebuilt the mechanics of the game in the same engine.

 

I stopped talking to the dude. Clearly, he has no reason to be here. His mere presence is a troll.

[Hazed]

Yep. AND in the era of SarbanesOxley compliance requirements.. believe it or not.. they can't say things like this unless they are materially true and factual. Their auditors won't let them. Why? Because not just the EA execs would go to jail.. but so would the auditors. SoX era auditors are insanely anal about things like this.

 

yeah lol, tell that to all the investors who have been burned in the past.

 

They don't straight lie, but they do like to lump things together i.e. SWToR and FIFA into the same pool.. how can we determine SWToR's success if the actual profits are skewed because of other data?

 

Investor information =/= truth

 

that's just basic finance

[Arkerus]

yeah lol, tell that to all the investors who have been burned in the past.

 

They don't straight lie, but they do like to lump things together i.e. SWToR and FIFA into the same pool.. how can we determine SWToR's success if the actual profits are skewed because of other data?

 

Investor information =/= truth

 

that's just basic finance

 

What you just said doesn't even make sense. They called out SWTOR and FIFA because they LED that group. There are much smaller titles and products in that group and they called out the leaders.

 

And the finance quote? LOL

 

I don't think you know what you even just said. Basic finance? DO you even know what basic finance is? It certainly isn't what you think it is.

 

You don't even know what SOX is...so don't tell us about finance.

 

(Quick, google it so you sound smart!)

[DOHboy]

yeah lol, tell that to all the investors who have been burned in the past.

 

They don't straight lie, but they do like to lump things together i.e. SWToR and FIFA into the same pool.. how can we determine SWToR's success if the actual profits are skewed because of other data?

 

Investor information =/= truth

 

that's just basic finance

 

actually i ended up making about 30% over the year+ i owned it. ended up being a pretty well performing stock in the end. Activision was a bit better return on investment due to the divided but only ended up making around 13-20% on that one. Still well, just not as well as EA performed. And as far as investor information and truth..

 

see we have these things called laws. and while in the past there were easier way to cook the books (enron). it is a bit more difficult than in the past. And by no means is EA cooking the books and making themselves sound like the next apple in fact their most recent guidance has been on the lower end of earnings.

 

so yes, for a publicly traded company investor information is about as close the the truth as you can get..even more so than say government or public education system

[Grayseven]

yeah lol, tell that to all the investors who have been burned in the past.

 

They don't straight lie, but they do like to lump things together i.e. SWToR and FIFA into the same pool.. how can we determine SWToR's success if the actual profits are skewed because of other data?

 

Investor information =/= truth

 

that's just basic finance

 

From the 2013 Report:

 

 

For fiscal year 2013, digital Net Revenue before Deferral was $1,663 million, an increase of $436 million, or

36 percent, as compared to fiscal year 2012. This increase is due to (1) a $221 million or 51 percent increase in

extra content and free-to-play sales primarily driven by the FIFA and Bejeweled franchises, along with

Star

Wars: The Old Republic,

(2) a $136 million or 47 percent increase in subscription and advertising sales primarily

driven by

Battlefield 3 Premium

subscriptions

,

(3) an $86 million or 30 percent increase in mobile sales primarily

driven by

The Simpsons: Tapped Out

and

FIFA World Class Soccer

. These increases were partially offset by a

$7 million or 3 percent decrease in full-game download sales primarily driven by

Star Wars: The Old Republic

and the Battlefield franchise

 

 

 

Also:

 

 

For fiscal year 2012, service and other revenue was $728 million, primarily driven by (1)

Star Wars: The Old

Republic,

which was launched in the third quarter, (2) our micro-transactions revenue from browser-based games

including games played on Facebook such as

The Sims Social

, and (3) our FIFA Ultimate Team add-on game

service. Service and other revenue for fiscal year 2012 increased $320 million, or 78 percent, as compared to

fiscal year 2011. This increase was primarily driven by a $351 million increase from certain services associated

with the FIFA and The Sims franchises, as well as

Star Wars: The Old Republic

. This increase was partially

offset by a $31 million decrease in service revenue generated by our Pogo-branded online game services and the

Warhammer and Ultima Online MMO franchises. In fiscal year 2013, we expect to increase our total service

revenue as compared to fiscal year 2012

 

 

Sorry for the way those look, copy/paste FTL...the original report in its entirety is here

 

The reasons that a company doesn't break down its financials by individual products have nothing to do with "basic finance". I'm not investing in SWTOR, I'm investing in EA and it is the health of the company as a whole that is important, not individual portions of it that only account for a small percentage of revenue. I don't need to know how well the Corvette is selling to invest in GM...

 

As an investor, I listen to reports about a company that may or may not include mention of individual projects, successes or failures. The market is driven by numbers, but investors are human and humans do things with emotion as much as they do logic and those reports might affect the stock as a whole and need to be paid attention to.

 

It has nothing to do with "burning investors". EA doesn't want Activision to know about their specifics, and investor reports are available to anyone. They aren't hiding anything from investors (that is important at any rate).

 

Because EA divides their products into groups (EA Games, EA Sports, etc) we can get a general idea of how well products are doing based on sales reports of individual products and the reported revenue of the appropriate group.

 

TLDR: They aren't hiding anything, they are being responsible to their shareholders by giving them the information they need without compromising themselves to their competitors.

[Kynesis]

the rest is C/p as is demonstrated on every planet and quest throughout SWToR. The engine is the bones, and the current bones suck it does adapt well to new things. They have known this since Alpha.. but hey if you want to act like you know some mystery about the development process by all means. I know for a fact it is not that difficult, it takes man hours sure, but its not difficult. In fact they outsource most of that labor to third world countries since it involves merely copying and pasting.

 

once you have an engine and art assets the rest is cake

 

 

My sides... they hurt, please stop!

[Niizmo]

I stopped watching when i found out it wasn't even SWTOR.

[DarthLeeloo]

I know I'd like SWTOR a lot more if it ran as smooth as FFXIV ARR runs on my PC. It annoys me that I have to play with all kinds of settings and try things like SWTOR Unleashed just to make it run a little better. Which still isn't very good after doing all that. Too much hassle.

[Blackardin]

Upgrading is not the same as changing the engine. I have a degree in 3D animation programming. I've written 3D renderers and graphics engines. Currently I train these so called interns who could do this work in 6 months. Let me tell ya, you've got about a 40% success rate on any intern. Most are about as good of a worker as a box of rocks. In fact the box of rocks would be more productive.

 

Not to further fuel this thread, but they must be out there in abundance, and in every field. I get more then my share of them. LOL

[Blackardin]

yeah lol, tell that to all the investors who have been burned in the past.

 

They don't straight lie, but they do like to lump things together i.e. SWToR and FIFA into the same pool.. how can we determine SWToR's success if the actual profits are skewed because of other data?

 

Investor information =/= truth

 

that's just basic finance

 

Personally, I'm kicking myself in the arse for not tossing a few bucks into that kitty when FTP and CC came out.

[Blackardin]

sure given infinite amount of time and infinite amount of money can do just about anything. But given things like schedule and money, and realistic constraints. Not everything is "possible"

 

But we all agree that the engine can be changed/upgraded, right? It is entirely possible given the variables?

 

If that be the case, then it all boils down to a financial decision. Will an upgraded engine provide a return on investment as well as increase profit margin. I would think that is the discussion they will have if it comes up, and I would think that there would be, at least initially, a mass migration back to the game....if only out of curiosity.

 

I won't propose to know what their exact plans are, if the engine will be upgraded or not, but I know one thing, they upgrade that engine and I'm dropping some serious cash into their stocks, at least for the short term.

[LordArtemis]

Ok, here is my perspective on the state of the current engine...mine, not speaking for anyone else.

 

I have an average to low end system. I run SWTOR anywhere around 20 to 40 FPS, depending on the area and the amount of players present. I rarely drop below 20, but it does happen.

 

This performance level is acceptable to me...but it is a lower performance at max settings than other games I play.

 

I can't play BF3, Metro 2033, Witcher 2 or Arma 2 at max settings without slowdowns. Aside from those games, I can run games at around 50 to 60 FPS at max settings, MMOs and single player games.

 

For me the performance of the game is noticeably lower than other games in the ballpark, but not terrible. And it has improved immensely since launch, especially recently.

 

Still, the CPU taxing is annoying, as is the long load times for certain areas (terminals) like on fleet.

 

Still, not bad, but certainly room for improvement.

[DOHboy]

But we all agree that the engine can be changed/upgraded, right? It is entirely possible given the variables?

 

If that be the case, then it all boils down to a financial decision. Will an upgraded engine provide a return on investment as well as increase profit margin. I would think that is the discussion they will have if it comes up, and I would think that there would be, at least initially, a mass migration back to the game....if only out of curiosity.

 

I won't propose to know what their exact plans are, if the engine will be upgraded or not, but I know one thing, they upgrade that engine and I'm dropping some serious cash into their stocks, at least for the short term.

 

sure, i can swim the atlantic, walk around the world, or even take space ship to mars. Possible does not mean realistic.

 

The running joke here is OP (and some others) think its is so simple one can simply COPY AND PASTE into a new engine. OP would have easier time walking into Mordor.

 

Try this, type a simple sentence, translate to a few different languages, and then translate back. see what comes out. (I want to buy you a bicycle -> I wan to buy a bike)

 

tl;dr language matters regardless if its spoken, written, or programming. translating from one to the other is not exact and often not even possible.

[Raansu]

They didn't change the engine. Entirely difference scenario. They rebuilt the mechanics of the game in the same engine.

 

Uh...yes they did.

[Andryah]

But we all agree that the engine can be changed/upgraded, right? It is entirely possible given the variables?

 

Thing is.. they have been quietly adjusting the engine since launch. More of their effort (by their own admission) to make the game more effective with lower end machines. Seriously.. they get almost no credit from the player base for engine changes since launch... but they have been making them (just not enough to please the forum predators). And of course.. the "engine" has become a popular meme in forum raging... so engine criticism now has a life of it's own.. some warranted, some not.

 

The people with high end machines, who expect game performance to scale with their hardware, is where the core issue is IMO. This game engine does not scale linearly with hardware, and I think that really pisses off people who are used to getting that effect.

 

AND NO.. I'm defending the engine.. so don't anyone try and play that joker......I am pointing out an observation. We all would love it if they could go back in time and change that decision. But.. in the absence of a temporal repositioning machine.. that is not going to happen.

[mfourcustom]

To be fair the hero engine has always been a big joke.

 

eso is made on the hero engine keep that in mind:cool:

[LordArtemis]

Refinement can happen, has happened IMO, and will continue to happen over time.

 

I don't think this engine is hopeless. I'm a code monkey, and we find unique ways to make things happen that folks thought were not possible every day. Four things I have personally worked on that were thought impossible in the game at the time....in very simple and general terms....

 

1) Added an appearance system to a game that would not support it in any way. We found a way in by using old code that was used to edit stats on weapons and armor early in the game's development. This was my baby.

 

2) Changed how characters were rendered in the game to allow animated armor pieces when the capability did not exist. This one used code that displayed particle effects (modified MPEs), and we found a way to make them static and insert them into armor and weapons. Two failures and one major bug before we got it right.

 

3) Found a way to add a customization system to a game for vehicles of a specific type when the engine had no capability to render objects without them being seamless joined meshes. Found a way to join the animation rigs to unite separate meshes together around a common object (single poly), creating the desired effect. This one delayed launch when they realized it could be done. I did very little code work on this one, just happy to be part of it.

 

4) Improved Z axis movement of meshes in the game where there was very little movement at the time, to the point where we almost had full 360 degree movement. Again, I did very little of the code work, but I was impressed with the work that was done.

 

You would be surprised at the ingenuity that developers can have when it comes to making the impossible possible.

[Andryah]

To be fair the hero engine has always been a big joke.

 

eso is made on the hero engine keep that in mind:cool:

 

Yeah.. even though Zenimax has been spinning this to make players believe that they won't use the hero engine.. if you read what they state carefully... they don't actually say that. The clever wording reads more like they will be deploying their "own engine" but when read carefully.. it reads as though their engine is probably a reworked hero engine platform.

 

Let me tell you some facts about HeroEngine. ZeniMax Online started the company from scratch. They did not have technologies in the beginning and they had to create new MMO engine themselves. That’s why they created and licensed HeroEngine. It was used in Star Wars: The Old Republic and they started using it for Elder Scrolls Online. It was a useful tool for developers to use to prototype areas and game design concepts, and it provided the ability to get art into the game that was visible. It helped to work on the game’s art style. Developers tell that HeroEngine was used as a good tool to get some new ideas in the game. But it does not mean that it will be used in the final version of the game without any changes. ZeniMax tell that HeroEngine helped them to get started. But final version of Elder Scrolls Online will have its own unique engine. Everything in the game’s engine will be written for this game. ESO will be a new MMO with its own features. Developers say that the main difference between ESO and other MMO games will be advanced social features. It is impossible to implement such changes without modifying engine.Anyway engine is only a basis of a game. It does not define what kind of content, or even what type of game, will be made. Stability, graphical awesomeness, and other features depend on the ability of programmers and designers. Everything depends on how all features will be realized. Even a super engine will not help if the staff is not professional. ZeniMax have only professional game developers in the team. It guarantees that the game will have very high quality and the game will be stable, beautiful and interesting.

 

Source: http://elderscrollsonline.info/news/about-game-engine

 

Seriously.. everything above could have been spun the exact same way by Bioware for SWTOR if they wanted to distance themselves from the brand. In which case.. we would all be declaring Bioware a failure at writing engines rather then a failure a modifying engines. The end effect is the same though.

 

When Firor talked about it in interviews, he was more direct then what is actually written on their website, leading me to believe he was spinning a bit. In other words.. since the hero engine has a bad rep on the internet, they are distancing themselves from the brand.. but the above does not make it clear that they are replacing it.. it reads more like they are changing it.

 

So it will be interesting to see the player verdict on ESO when it goes live.

[CosmicKat]

Sustained growth means whatever they are making now is more than before, quarter after quarter. Everyone knows TOR lost subs in year one. Welcome to 2013 CK. Enjoy your stay.

 

I've never seen so many people who play the game try to ruin any good news because the game didn't fit their perfect little model of what an MMO should be.

 

I think some people are just mad because video game companies realized that they are not the target market. Yeah. You aren't special. Companies don't care about you because you can't be pleased. No one is wasting money of you because you don't matter. You're just another over the hill gamer who can't keep up with the times.

 

But in the end it really doesn't matter because EA is obviously making bank off this game and we have a huge space update on the horizon. The game has made leaps and bounds in the past year after the initial loss of subs. It will change and it will grow and it will be at its own pace.

 

You can wail and moan all you want but you can't stop it. The only thing you can do is claim to drop your sub and keeping posting on a forum of a game you claim you don't even play. Kind of odd behavior for someone who doesn't even use the product.

 

Nobody is trying to "ruin good news". People are just being realistic. You and your booster cohorts would like everyone to believe that TOR is a runaway success that is perfect. Neither of those things are true. The first step in fixing anything is to acknowledge that it is broken.

 

FACT: TOR launched with over 100 North American servers. We now have less than 10 and none are ever full. We no longer have APAC servers and we now have many people paying nothing to play. The 8(?) super servers that replaced the 100+ hold about 2-3 times what the old ones did. Absolute best case scenario is we have enough people playing to populate 24 of those original 100+. That's 1/4 of what they planned and budgeted for AND many of them aren't paying anything.

[Andryah]

FACT: TOR launched with over 100 North American servers. We now have less than 10 and none are ever full. We no longer have APAC servers and we now have many people paying nothing to play. The 8(?) super servers that replaced the 100+ hold about 2-3 times what the old ones did. Absolute best case scenario is we have enough people playing to populate 24 of those original 100+. That's 1/4 of what they planned and budgeted for AND many of them aren't paying anything.

 

Which makes it the most successful MMO, 2 years post launch, since WoW in western markets.

 

Not perfect. Never will be in fact. No MMO is.

 

But not the failure you would like to paint it out to be either.

[CosmicKat]

Which makes it the most successful MMO, 2 years post launch, since WoW in western markets.

 

Not perfect. Never will be in fact. No MMO is.

 

But not the failure you would like to paint it out to be either.

 

It WAS a colossal failure whether you want to admit it or not.

 

Just like a 200 million dollar movie, a 200 million dollar game has to make far more money than a 10 million dollar one to be a "success". Someone mentioned John Carter earlier. It is very much like TOR, it made a boatload of money, but since it cost a boatload +1, it was a "failiure".

 

TOR isn't a colossal failure NOW, but it's no Avatar either.

[LordArtemis]

I could actually provide what I feel are some sensible fair contentions instead of what I believe to be biased ones.

 

I believe it is likely that SWTOR did not meet expectations.

I believe SWTOR lost upwards of 70 percent of its initial playerbase in less than a year.

I believe a contributing factor to that loss was unwise design decisions made by the original dev staff.

I believe that a fundamental lack of understanding of modern MMO players was a major factor.

I believe the original dev staff was far to resistant to change and payed the price for it.

I believe the game was launched before it was ready and could have used another year in development.

 

However....

 

I believe there were many factors, not just design, that contributed to the games player losses, many out of Bioware's control.

I believe players had some unreal expectations.

I believe the game is doing well now based on released information and the amount of and rate of new content.

I believe that total subscribers is no longer as important as it was in the past since the launch of the F2P hybrid model.

I believe the new staff is very different from the old staff, and is open to almost ANY change that will benefit the game.

I believe the game has vastly improved over it's pre F2P hybrid state, and continues to improve at an impressive pace.

 

There is room for improvement...vast room in some areas where the game is still lacking. I do think, however, the game is not getting the proper credit for worthy improvements. Either way, I believe that even with the losses this game has weathered the storm and made a great deal of the changes required to give it some longevity and viability in this volatile market.