Class balance

[zipain]

Just replying to the topic, with my total honest opinion.

 

This must be the WORST class balance opinion I have seen so far! the picture is just a spit in the face. Guess it could work for lower ranked people who dont give much about actually competing in pvp.

[Zoom_VI]

READ BEFORE POSTING

 

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3127/c95z.png

 

Edit : Tank are on the left side and healers on the right side. The reason I gave thoses numbers to healers is simple. I believe heals arn't OP. The main problem reside in guard and taunt screwing up the whole balance.

I'll say another time what I'd love to see done for guard : Make it a 30-40% passive with an ability to increase that number to 50-60%. This way, guarded target won't be invulnerable all the time from 50% damage reduction but will be able to survive big burst if the guarder knows when to use his active.

 

Edit : Note 2 : Yes I did more then enough rankeds, normals warzones, duels, 4v4 on tatooine, open world PvP etc. I am an hardcore PvPer and I don't do PvE.

 

1) guard isn't passive - you have to be within 15m, you also can't get within 8m of your guarded target or you will get screwed over by a smashmonkey. In other words a tank is perpetually trying to stay in a 7m sweet spot ring, while still having to perform all the other actions a tank has to do.

 

2) guard isn't invulnerability is a entirely possible to flat out burst straight through guard and taunts. However with cross-healing that won't happen buts that's a tank + healer + healer.

 

3) Guard isn't even really mitigating much at all, it just spreads the damage to a second person, the healer still has to compensate for it.

 

4) Guarding looks easy and simple, but its not even remotely (see one), the thing is you never notice bad tanks, because they are out of range so the healer isn't guarded or peeled for. You only notice the good ones.

 

5) Countering guard is very very simple. Separate them. I can't tell you how many times I'll be tanking and a couple smashmonkeys start wailing on my healer, yet for all their exertions it never once occurs to them to turn and force push me away before hitting smash. Of course every once in awhile a smart juggy comes along and push>leap>AoE mezzes me leaving my healer completely vulnerable. Or a sniper that rolls in-between me and my healer and KB>flashbangs me. Or a PT that harpoons>stuns me while his friend burst my healer.

 

6) your idea is flawed in the fact that tieing guard's effectiveness to a CD neuters its effectiveness, for starters forcing a tank to have to predict when a burst is coming is only plausible if only one dps is attacking. He would never be able to track what all the enemy dps are doing, Not to mention that would require the tank to not only know how every dps class works, but also every one of their proc icons and visual cues.

Not to mention it would also mean countering guard could be done just by mezzing the tank right before bursting so he can't use his guard cd, instead of actually trying to pull them apart.

 

7) as mentioned in #1 and #5, properly guarding is actually one of the most difficult roles to fill in PvP, dpsing and healing both require significantly less situational awareness. A dps just has to worry about their rotation, a tank is perpetually paranoid about being force away from his healer. Do you really thing tanking needs to be more difficult?

 

8) operative healers aren't OP on your list? Its the tanks fault? operatives can keep their entire team up while kiting everything, having a tank is merely a QoL thing for operatives.

 

9) the only really OP guarding mechanics are the juggernauts, simply because jugs can apply flat DR to their healer outside of the taunt/guard mechanics. And because Jugg's extensive DcD and gap closing suite makes them significantly more potent than both of the other tank ACs. They also have a AoE mezz and a push which means if their healer is threatened they can effectively buy them 6 seconds of immunity., (which for a operative healer would a H2F)

 

10) I find it funny that you rank Sin tanks together with Jugg tanks. Considering Sins are insanely prone to burst damage, and have the weakest gap closing skills, unless your ranking them in respect to node guarding?

 

11) why on earth did you rank balance sages that high? They might be good for the first 20 seconds of the fight, but after that they are completely drained of force and are useless. Sure they can tab dot and rack up some crazy damage numbers, but they aren't gonna kill squat doing that. Same for DF, great on the damage chart but low survivability, mediocre burst, no good utility.

[snaplemouton]

1) guard isn't passive - you have to be within 15m, you also can't get within 8m of your guarded target or you will get screwed over by a smashmonkey. In other words a tank is perpetually trying to stay in a 7m sweet spot ring, while still having to perform all the other actions a tank has to do.

 

2) guard isn't invulnerability is a entirely possible to flat out burst straight through guard and taunts. However with cross-healing that won't happen buts that's a tank + healer + healer.

 

3) Guard isn't even really mitigating much at all, it just spreads the damage to a second person, the healer still has to compensate for it.

 

4) Guarding looks easy and simple, but its not even remotely (see one), the thing is you never notice bad tanks, because they are out of range so the healer isn't guarded or peeled for. You only notice the good ones.

 

5) Countering guard is very very simple. Separate them. I can't tell you how many times I'll be tanking and a couple smashmonkeys start wailing on my healer, yet for all their exertions it never once occurs to them to turn and force push me away before hitting smash. Of course every once in awhile a smart juggy comes along and push>leap>AoE mezzes me leaving my healer completely vulnerable. Or a sniper that rolls in-between me and my healer and KB>flashbangs me. Or a PT that harpoons>stuns me while his friend burst my healer.

 

6) your idea is flawed in the fact that tieing guard's effectiveness to a CD neuters its effectiveness, for starters forcing a tank to have to predict when a burst is coming is only plausible if only one dps is attacking. He would never be able to track what all the enemy dps are doing, Not to mention that would require the tank to not only know how every dps class works, but also every one of their proc icons and visual cues.

Not to mention it would also mean countering guard could be done just by mezzing the tank right before bursting so he can't use his guard cd, instead of actually trying to pull them apart.

 

7) as mentioned in #1 and #5, properly guarding is actually one of the most difficult roles to fill in PvP, dpsing and healing both require significantly less situational awareness. A dps just has to worry about their rotation, a tank is perpetually paranoid about being force away from his healer. Do you really thing tanking needs to be more difficult?

 

8) operative healers aren't OP on your list? Its the tanks fault? operatives can keep their entire team up while kiting everything, having a tank is merely a QoL thing for operatives.

 

9) the only really OP guarding mechanics are the juggernauts, simply because jugs can apply flat DR to their healer outside of the taunt/guard mechanics. And because Jugg's extensive DcD and gap closing suite makes them significantly more potent than both of the other tank ACs. They also have a AoE mezz and a push which means if their healer is threatened they can effectively buy them 6 seconds of immunity., (which for a operative healer would a H2F)

 

10) I find it funny that you rank Sin tanks together with Jugg tanks. Considering Sins are insanely prone to burst damage, and have the weakest gap closing skills, unless your ranking them in respect to node guarding?

 

11) why on earth did you rank balance sages that high? They might be good for the first 20 seconds of the fight, but after that they are completely drained of force and are useless. Sure they can tab dot and rack up some crazy damage numbers, but they aren't gonna kill squat doing that. Same for DF, great on the damage chart but low survivability, mediocre burst, no good utility.

 

1. Staying with 15 meters is very easy to do. And smash is 4 meters radius. So saying you have to stay between 8-15 meters absolutly is exagerating. Especially since a taunted smasher doesn't hit for much damage against a tank.

 

2. When I said invulnerability, it was simply to tell how exagerated the amount of survivability guard all by itself was giving.

 

3. A tank can dodge damage being transfered from a guarded target and that include DoT damage. (I might be wrong on this, I havn't tested it extensively, but my friend report that he was dodging the DoTs left on me after some fights.) So yes, it's a tons of mitigation, especially since that same guarded damage can be reduced by the shield and all other kind of damage reduction talent or abilities.

 

4. I play tank, I know how it works and I sure as hell know how boring and easy it is. As easy as DPSing and healing is in this game with how Bioware babysit everyone into making errors that doesn't matter.

 

5. Countering guard require far more effort then guarding someone. Separating the tank from the healer when 2 out of 3 tanks can charge ask for much more effort then just pushing or pulling the tank away. While guarding only ask you to switch guard and to stand in a very confortable 15 meters range.

 

6. How is it flawed? If you are a good tank and play with an healer over voice chat, the healer can always call for incomming burst. You don't have to know every proc, every animation every crap that's going on. The biggest mitigation needed is when your healer is stunned. When the healer isn't stunned, that same healer is providing it's own mitigation and healing. You'll have to active guard against stuns and when you see your guarded target health dropping rather quickly. And you SHOULD be knowing all classes and how they work in PvP if you ever want to be good. So using that as an argument is just pointless.

 

7. No. Tanking isn't more difficult then DPSing or Healing. Tanks arn't the only one who require situational awereness. A DPS doesn't only have to worry about it's rotation. A DPS must be aware of what's going on around him. He need to know where to put the pressure, when to break off, when and where to switch, etc. etc. Healers needs to be aware of who is going to be taking a lot of heat, where the enemies are and watch out against CCs. The most vital part of healing is about positioning. To be in a spot where you can heal people taking damage while avoiding direct contact with enemies and making sure you can't be CCed when your team or yourslef is in need of healing. As for tank, like healers, they have to be aware of their team and be aware of the enemy team without having to know where to put the pressure. The 3 roles all have a tons of things to check for. Tanks arn't specials butterflies. And yes I strongly believe tanking needs to be harder. Guard is nothing but hard to use.

 

8. No they can't. You can't kite when stunned, you can't kite when rooted, you can't kite when slowed... you can only really kite against slows if a tank is peeling for you, and even then it's either only for a short duration or they are still on you as you are slowed as much as the guys attacking you. Roots have no DRs and with how slows are so easy to applies and with the very few ways to remove them (Scoundrel cannot cleanse force except with dodge which mean every jedi/sith can slow them as much as they want) kitting become impossible. And scamper is useless as soon as you are slowed. So it's useless 95% of the time.

Do you even have a scoundrel/operative to claim that?

 

9. Juggernaut tanks are fine. Guardian leap/intervene applies 20% damage reduction, sure. But you have to take in consideration other things such as riot gas for vanguard. That's 30% accuracy debuff with an uber slow. Juggernaut doesn't have that and yet it's a very high amount of damage negated and an uber slow on top of it.

You must also not forget that the juggernaut can't pull like the 2 other tank classes. The only 2 big advantage that make juggernaut better overall is that he got 3 ways to move around the battle and the AoE mez. And I believe shadow tanks should get an instant AoE levitate at the cost of it being only 6 seconds duration and 10 meters range, much like the scoundrel flashbang, while vanguard tank should have their AoE stun last a little longer.

 

10. Prone to burst damage? With resilience, deflection and vanish, I think they are pretty much in a good place to negate burst damage. I agree that they have the weakest gap closing skill. Mostly because they have to use their teleport for objective and can't really keep it for moving around the battle. Maybe making force speed remove all imparing effect on activation would help.

 

11. I explained it in another post. And if you get drained out of force in balance... well then you should really consider respeccing into another game. And how can you even consider DF mediocre, gunslinger DF damage is beyond absurb because of how shrap bomb can now be spammed with near to no energy cost. DF burst is very high if you are not a complete tool. Especially in the hybrid sabo/DF with contingency charge + wounding shot.

Edited September 26, 2013 by snaplemouton

[Zoom_VI]

1. Staying with 15 meters is very easy to do. And smash is 4 meters radius. So saying you have to stay between 8-15 meters absolutly is exagerating. Especially since a taunted smasher doesn't hit for much damage against a tank.

Stay within 15m is very easy to do in regs where nobody tries to separate the tank and healer, against competitive teams the tank and healer are getting yanks and pushed away pretty much whenever they aren't whitebarred.

 

Also smash has a 4 meter radius which is a 8 meter wide circle.

 

2. When I said invulnerability, it was simply to tell how exagerated the amount of survivability guard all by itself was giving.

Exaggerating doesn't prove your point, it just makes you look bad.

 

3. A tank can dodge damage being transfered from a guarded target and that include DoT damage. (I might be wrong on this, I havn't tested it extensively, but my friend report that he was dodging the DoTs left on me after some fights.) So yes, it's a tons of mitigation, especially since that same guarded damage can be reduced by the shield and all other kind of damage reduction talent or abilities.

Damage coming through guard is subject to the same defensive mechanics as if the original attack was used on the tank. (pior to 2.0 this was broken and none of the tanks defensive mechanics affected guard)

Mitigating dots? really? Dots are the least of a tanks worries.

 

4. I play tank, I know how it works and I sure as hell know how boring and easy it is. As easy as DPSing and healing is in this game with how Bioware babysit everyone into making errors that doesn't matter.

 

I play tank too, and dps. Again I really doubt you have ever tanked against competent teams

 

5. Countering guard require far more effort then guarding someone. Separating the tank from the healer when 2 out of 3 tanks can charge ask for much more effort then just pushing or pulling the tank away. While guarding only ask you to switch guard and to stand in a very confortable 15 meters range.

 

Push>leap>mezz>intercede back to your teammates that's beating on the healer

KB>flashbang

Pull>stun

Coordinated chian pull

Coordinated KB

 

Countering guard is easy, one person can do it. But the second the tank is compromised the healer and nearby DDs will start throwing out CC like mad while the tank comes back into range. Its not just the tank its called teamwork

 

6. How is it flawed? If you are a good tank and play with an healer over voice chat, the healer can always call for incomming burst. You don't have to know every proc, every animation every crap that's going on. The biggest mitigation needed is when your healer is stunned. When the healer isn't stunned, that same healer is providing it's own mitigation and healing. You'll have to active guard against stuns and when you see your guarded target health dropping rather quickly. And you SHOULD be knowing all classes and how they work in PvP if you ever want to be good. So using that as an argument is just pointless.

1) you CC the tank with the healer

2) healing is hardly mitigation, I watched many times as my healer is burned down without me or her being CC'ed while my guard is up. Solely from her being overpowered by sheer dps output. In ranked this doesn't happen much due to cross heals and Dps helping to peel, but cross-healing goes away with the death of 8v8 ranked

 

 

7. No. Tanking isn't more difficult then DPSing or Healing. Tanks arn't the only one who require situational awereness. A DPS doesn't only have to worry about it's rotation. A DPS must be aware of what's going on around him. He need to know where to put the pressure, when to break off, when and where to switch, etc. etc. Healers needs to be aware of who is going to be taking a lot of heat, where the enemies are and watch out against CCs. The most vital part of healing is about positioning. To be in a spot where you can heal people taking damage while avoiding direct contact with enemies and making sure you can't be CCed when your team or yourslef is in need of healing. As for tank, like healers, they have to be aware of their team and be aware of the enemy team without having to know where to put the pressure. The 3 roles all have a tons of things to check for. Tanks arn't specials butterflies. And yes I strongly believe tanking needs to be harder. Guard is nothing but hard to use.

I'm really sorry that you seem to think dpsing requires as much ability as tanking, you would think the sheer lack of good tanks vs good dps and healers might have clued you in. You are also the only person I have ever incountered that thinks PvP tanking is easy.

 

8. No they can't. You can't kite when stunned, you can't kite when rooted, you can't kite when slowed... you can only really kite against slows if a tank is peeling for you, and even then it's either only for a short duration or they are still on you as you are slowed as much as the guys attacking you. Roots have no DRs and with how slows are so easy to applies and with the very few ways to remove them (Scoundrel cannot cleanse force except with dodge which mean every jedi/sith can slow them as much as they want) kitting become impossible. And scamper is useless as soon as you are slowed. So it's useless 95% of the time.

Do you even have a scoundrel/operative to claim that?

Do a forum search about operatives, the sheer massive volume of complaints against operative healers since 2.0 coming from both seasoned ranked veterans to new 55s is staggering.

 

9. Juggernaut tanks are fine. Guardian leap/intervene applies 20% damage reduction, sure. But you have to take in consideration other things such as riot gas for vanguard. That's 30% accuracy debuff with an uber slow. Juggernaut doesn't have that and yet it's a very high amount of damage negated and an uber slow on top of it.

Riot gas isn't a instant gap close to my healer, Riot gas requires the enemy to actually stand in it. (melee can stand on its edge and hit someone inside it). Riot gas only affects White damage. (in other words it doesn't effect half the heavy burst abilities in the game) Intercede reduces damage taken from all sources by 20%

Also Riot gas's snare value means it almost always has to be reserved for strategic uses and can rarely be used as a defensive measure.

You must also not forget that the juggernaut can't pull like the 2 other tank classes. The only 2 big advantage that make juggernaut better overall is that he got 3 ways to move around the battle and the AoE mez. And I believe shadow tanks should get an instant AoE levitate at the cost of it being only 6 seconds duration and 10 meters range, much like the scoundrel flashbang, while vanguard tank should have their AoE stun last a little longer.

Push>Pull for tanking. Why?

Because in order to pull someone off of my healer I have to leave guard range. Yes it has some very potent uses but push wins out. Pull also gives a crap-ton of resolve.

 

10. Prone to burst damage? With resilience, deflection and vanish, I think they are pretty much in a good place to negate burst damage. I agree that they have the weakest gap closing skill. Mostly because they have to use their teleport for objective and can't really keep it for moving around the battle.

resilience only affects force/tech and lasts five seconds. There is also a 5% chance for a F/T attack to penetrate it anyway

Deflection only affects white damage and is a purely rng dependant dcd.

Shadow tanks have very low armor and the vast majority of their mitigation comes from shields which are 1) bypassed by autocirts and 2) entirely RNG dependant

Vanish doesn't help with burst and it blocks you from getting healed after you use it.

There are also dozens of threads on sin tanks shortcomings at pretty much everything that isn't node guarding

 

Maybe making force speed remove all imparing effect on activation would help.

You don't have any experience with Sin tanks do you? Because they already have this

 

11. I explained it in another post. And if you get drained out of force in balance... well then you should really consider respeccing into another game. And how can you even consider DF mediocre, gunslinger DF damage is beyond absurb because of how shrap bomb can now be spammed with near to no energy cost. DF burst is very high if you are not a complete tool. Especially in the hybrid sabo/DF with contingency charge + wounding shot.

 

If you thinks DoT damage means anything at all in pvp ... well then you should really consider respeccing into another game.

Spamming scrap bomb? You can hit it a dozen times it will still only leave one dot stack, and again DoTs are not a threat to anything in pvp.

I said DF burst was mediocre, the only hard hitter it has is Wounding Shots which is a channel.

Again great ability to put up damage numbers but terrible killing power.

Contingency charge is a 30 second CD and Sab charge can be cleansed by merc and operative healers. Plus Dodge and resilience also cleanse it.

 

DF is not bursty, unless your trying to compare it to balance. It is also really bad at target switching since DF has to reapply its dots for every target.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[sithBracer]

Do a forum search about operatives, the sheer massive volume of complaints against operative healers since 2.0 coming from both seasoned ranked veterans to new 55s is staggering.

 

Which seasoned ranked veterans complain against op healers? I honestly have not seen that many.

[Domatron]

Which seasoned ranked veterans complain against op healers? I honestly have not seen that many.

 

Then you haven't looked hard,

after 2.0 if you played ranked you would know (or even just watched streams), most teams ran 2 op healers, before 2.0 it was 1 op and 1 sorc for bubble stun. After 2.0 sorc heals just need to much help vs the ease of running two ops. Teams would still bring exceptional sorcs (or friends who didn't reroll) but 2 ops were just plain better. Some teams ran 3 operative healers to just flat stalemate matches.

 

 

And honestly for all the overzealous operative healer defenders, you all believe (correctly) that smash is overtuned but it will not be the only viable or optimal dps for arenas.

Powertech and Jugg tanks will both be viable.

However one healer has so much better output, survivability, and utility that it is literally the only choice. If that is not the definition of overpowered I don't know what is.

[sithBracer]

Then you haven't looked hard,

after 2.0 if you played ranked you would know (or even just watched streams), most teams ran 2 op healers, before 2.0 it was 1 op and 1 sorc for bubble stun. After 2.0 sorc heals just need to much help vs the ease of running two ops. Teams would still bring exceptional sorcs (or friends who didn't reroll) but 2 ops were just plain better. Some teams ran 3 operative healers to just flat stalemate matches.

 

That is not answering the question. Which seasoned vets (preferably people who stream) complained about op healers?

 

And honestly for all the overzealous operative healer defenders, you all believe (correctly) that smash is overtuned but it will not be the only viable or optimal dps for arenas.

Powertech and Jugg tanks will both be viable.

However one healer has so much better output, survivability, and utility that it is literally the only choice. If that is not the definition of overpowered I don't know what is.

 

How many dps are there and how many healers are there? Also just because 2 of the healers aren't viable in arena's doesn't mean one is severely overpowered, it could mean that they are underpowered. If the op healer was removed from the game tomorrow, do you think that would increase the viability of the other 2? Hell, I would rather have an extra dps instead of a merc healer in an arena, he's that unviable. And the sorc, well the fact that biowares refusal to buff it created a backlash meme speaks for itself.

[Stavroz]

Basically, my tiers would go like this:

 

GOD TIER

Jugg tank

Op healer

Mara dps (any spec, maybe not anni idk)

 

LEET TIER

Sniper dps (any spec)

 

I-CAN-STILL-PLAY-SWTOR-TIER

All the other specs

 

WHY-AM-I-STILL-PLAYING-THIS-GAME-TIER

madness assassin

concealment operative

 

But I don't know **** about where bounty hunters go cuz I don't have those classes at 55

 

hehe pretty accurate actually

 

 

IMO i have it like this

 

Completely OP

Scoundrel Healer

Focus Sent

 

Stronger then Normal

Gunslinger all specs

Vanguard tactics (2.4)

Guardian tanks

Sent other specs

 

Good balance

Commando gunnery

Sage TK/Balance/seer (all specs)

Guardian focus (yes they lack the DCD of Sents so they are balanced imo)

Assault vang (2.4)

 

Need small amount of love

Infiltration Shadow

Vigilance Guardian

Tank Shadow

Tank Vangaurd

Dirty fighting scoundrel

 

Need Buffs badly

Medic Commando

Scrapper Scoundrel

Balance Shadow

[AlrikFassbauer]

Madness sin is probably even worse too.

 

Don't forget that this is shared by Sorcerors, too.

 

So, Madness Sorcerors ... ?

[glocklB]

Don't forget that this is shared by Sorcerors, too.

 

So, Madness Sorcerors ... ?

 

Sins are in much worse spot because they are just as squishy as madness sorcs, but they are melee with only few long range abilities (dots mostly).

[senatorkn]

Sadness Sins and "Balance" Shadows are worst specs atm T_T which is pretty lame bcz it should be interesting type of melee/range hybrid of warrior/mage. But atm we have only lowest in dps dot spec with terrible defensive cds ... fml

Aye and ofc Sin/Shadow tank is a joke aswell

[Draekos]

LOL class balance. Merc heals are a joke in the current meta.

[TonyDragonflame]

Sadness Sins and "Balance" Shadows are worst specs atm T_T which is pretty lame bcz it should be interesting type of melee/range hybrid of warrior/mage. But atm we have only lowest in dps dot spec with terrible defensive cds ... fml

Aye and ofc Sin/Shadow tank is a joke aswell

 

You must play dps operative/scoundrel first, before talking how sins/shadows weak...

[TonyDragonflame]

Need small amount of love

Infiltration Shadow

 

Infiltration Shadow are OP, need nerf

[SEANeD]

Madness sorcs are more op than carnage marauders and jugg tanks? I just want better force management. Please don't say i'm op.

[ZipZep]

You must play dps operative/scoundrel first, before talking how sins/shadows weak...

 

Krowena did play Concealment Operative before Assassin, so I guess he's allowed to complain about madness after all then .

[snaplemouton]

How many dps are there and how many healers are there? Also just because 2 of the healers aren't viable in arena's doesn't mean one is severely overpowered, it could mean that they are underpowered. If the op healer was removed from the game tomorrow, do you think that would increase the viability of the other 2? Hell, I would rather have an extra dps instead of a merc healer in an arena, he's that unviable. And the sorc, well the fact that biowares refusal to buff it created a backlash meme speaks for itself.

Pretty much this ^^^

 

In every MMORPG, PvP forums are flooded with QQ and rage posts requesting to nerf healers or whichever healing class is considered the better healer.

 

WoW had, have and will always have that on their forum.

Rift as seen the QQ meter above 9k since cleric were added to the game (the very beginning).

Neverwinter's cleric is the most crappy class ever for the game and yet people complain about their heals.

Even Guild wars 2 got tons of posts about how elementalist "heal" too much. Even tho they don't do anything but use supportive heals and defensive to stay alive at the cost of dealing literally 0 damage.

 

Look at every other MMORPG with healers and tell me if there is any of them where people didn't complain about healers!

 

People love so much seeing their health bar regenerate as fast as possible, but as soon as it's the enemy bar that move up, complaints, QQ, raging and forums posts about nerfing a certain healing class or all healers together (Hell people are asking for a nerf to commando/mercenary healers). Then all kind of misinformation, terrible knowledge flows out of it stating why they are OP even though whatever reasons given make no freagin senses at all.

 

It's simple. If you arn't playing both healer and DPS (And even tank), you should simply shut the hell up as you have no clues of how healing actually works.

An healer CAN and SHOULD be doing at the very least 150% healing for damage without going overboard and staying under 200% healing for damage.

And guess what! That is exactly the case for scoundrel/operative. What's the highest healing done in a warzone? I often see 1mil damage and I have yet to see a 2mil healing in a warzone. Healing usually stopping at 1.6mil in very lengthy warzones where DPS did up to 1.2mil damage.

 

So stop crying about healer and go play one so you can learn how to effectively counter them and see how annoying it is to heal all the ****** terribad DPS that plague every warzones, normals or rankeds.

[TonyDragonflame]

Krowena did play Concealment Operative before Assassin, so I guess he's allowed to complain about madness after all then .

 

Whoa, seems he is fotm reroller, isn't it? Cuz sins always were OP ever compared with operatives after 1.2 nerf - before 2.0 - darkness sins were OP in dps gear, after 2.0 -deception OP. GG, another one fotm reroller detected.

[Zoom_VI]

 

People love so much seeing their health bar regenerate as fast as possible, but as soon as it's the enemy bar that move up, complaints, QQ, raging and forums posts about nerfing a certain healing class or all healers together (Hell people are asking for a nerf to commando/mercenary healers). Then all kind of misinformation, terrible knowledge flows out of it stating why they are OP even though whatever reasons given make no freagin senses at all.

 

I use that exact same argument agiasnt your nerf tanks crap. Becuase tanks stoping your damage is hardly any different that healing through damage.

 

It's simple. If you arn't playing both healer and DPS (And even tank), you should simply shut the hell up as you have no clues of how healing actually works.

You know I actually did this, I respecced my scoundrel to see if I could learn anything useful. You know what I found? I discovered that scoundrel healers where even more OP than my previous assesments.

 

An healer CAN and SHOULD be doing at the very least 150% healing for damage without going overboard and staying under 200% healing for damage.

And guess what! That is exactly the case for scoundrel/operative. What's the highest healing done in a warzone? I often see 1mil damage and I have yet to see a 2mil healing in a warzone. Healing usually stopping at 1.6mil in very lengthy warzones where DPS did up to 1.2mil damage.

 

Output isn't the issue, its the fact that they can deliver that output while under heavy pressure. A sage can put up as much raw output as a scoundrel, but even the best sages out there lose a lot of their output once they come under fire. Same argument for mandos. Sages and mandos can't kite anything while healing, a scoundrel can and not only that the scoundrel has the single best kiting ability in the game. Not to mention the scoundrel has the best CC options available, so if they feel even marginally pressured they can just flashbang and H2F.

[JediMasterSLC]

To reply to the graphic: You ranked tank guardians and shadows on the same level, and vgs below them?? The correct order from best to worst is tank guard, then vg, then shadow. Watchman sent should be lower than combat (and on the same level as mando heals, not sage heals). You ranked balance sage better than TK?? The correct sage spec order is TK, heals, balance. Scrapper should be lower than combat sent and dirty fighting scoundrel. And obviously, scoundrel heals should be like a 7 or 8 on your scale, not 5 lol.

[mfourcustom]

I really don't agree with the balance graph here....

 

I feel the game should only have 4 viable classes those being jugs, mara, snipers, op heals.

 

 

 

OH WAIT SILLY ME ITS BEEN THAT WAY SINCE 2.0!!!

[snaplemouton]

I use that exact same argument agiasnt your nerf tanks crap. Becuase tanks stoping your damage is hardly any different that healing through damage.

Tank arn't stopping my damage. Tank are stopping me from being killable on my heals. It's a perception problem.

 

You know I actually did this, I respecced my scoundrel to see if I could learn anything useful. You know what I found? I discovered that scoundrel healers where even more OP than my previous assesments.

You are free to believe what you want.

 

Output isn't the issue, its the fact that they can deliver that output while under heavy pressure. A sage can put up as much raw output as a scoundrel, but even the best sages out there lose a lot of their output once they come under fire. Same argument for mandos. Sages and mandos can't kite anything while healing, a scoundrel can and not only that the scoundrel has the single best kiting ability in the game. Not to mention the scoundrel has the best CC options available, so if they feel even marginally pressured they can just flashbang and H2F.

You can't deliver "that output" when stunned. You deliver far less output when above 30% and only actually start delivering when healing under 30% which is hard countered by any kind of stun which every classes have.

Mandos arn't meant to be kitting in the first place. Even then they can still heal while kiting with the use of kolto bomb, bacta infusion and instant med probe or use hammer shot on ally or switch his trauma probe. It's not as effective as scoundrel, but scoundrel is not as effective at turret healing like mandos are.

Sages heal with a more heal and run style very centered around force speed. Creating a gap to cast while the gap last, then heal with instants or channel.

The only thing scoundrel as more as CC options is that their flashbang is AoE. (Also their sap but in combat it doesn't mean anything.) But they suffer from the lack of range on their CC. 10 meters on fb and melee for their stun. You'll probably tell me that AoE mez is what make it OP. I'll just tell you that scoundrel doesn't have any knockback.

Scoundrel doesn't have the best kitting ability in the game at all. It has the worst kitting ability of the 3 healers. The only thing that get you out of melee is flashbang and dodge + disappearing act and both have a long cooldown (dodge + disappearing act use both scoundrel only real defensive ability).

Mando can leave melee range with hold the line or concussive charge.

Sage can leave melee range with force speed and force wave.

 

And once again, you are using other healers to call scoundrel OP when it has been said over and over again that both the sage and mando needs a buff to their healing class.

 

Scoundrel is fine. The problem comes from DPS being too dumb to stun at 30%.

Also, guard for all the reasons I already mentioned.

[Zoom_VI]

I also don't agree with jug tanks being on "par" with shieldtech being "under par"

 

Personally I Believe that Tank PT should be the benchmark target for tanks in PvP. It has a very specific set of advantages that can be utilized, and it also has a specific set of disadvantages that can be used against it.

 

Jugg tanks on the on the other hand have a long list of advantages and very few disadvantages. (the only two I can come up with is jugs being the slowest tank in transitioning between nodes, and also the easiest tank ninja against. Except both disadvantages become mute points with the death of objective based ranked)

 

Sin tanks are just plain squishy, and suck at guarding healers, and ought to be listed under "needs improvements"

[mfourcustom]

I also don't agree with jug tanks being on "par" with shieldtech being "under par"

 

Personally I Believe that Tank PT should be the benchmark target for tanks in PvP. It has a very specific set of advantages that can be utilized, and it also has a specific set of disadvantages that can be used against it.

 

Jugg tanks on the on the other hand have a long list of advantages and very few disadvantages. (the only two I can come up with is jugs being the slowest tank in transitioning between nodes, and also the easiest tank ninja against. Except both disadvantages become mute points with the death of objective based ranked)

 

Sin tanks are just plain squishy, and suck at guarding healers, and ought to be listed under "needs improvements"

 

This^ to bad it makes to much sense and will never happen.

 

oh well...buff op heals anyone???

[Zoom_VI]

Tank arn't stopping my damage. Tank are stopping me from being killable on my heals. It's a perception problem.

Perception problem on whos side? I come from the tank perspective you from the healing perspective. Now which one has the better view?

 

 

 

 

 

You can't deliver "that output" when stunned. You deliver far less output when above 30% and only actually start delivering when healing under 30% which is hard countered by any kind of stun which every classes have.

Scoundrel have plently of output above 30% it just increases rapidly under 30% Like a Decption Sin on a 29% target.

Also neither of the other ACs can heal while stunned too, in fact since scoundrel's hots still work while stunned scoundrel is still better than sages or mandos in this category.

 

Mandos arn't meant to be kitting in the first place. Even then they can still heal while kiting with the use of kolto bomb, bacta infusion and instant med probe or use hammer shot on ally or switch his trauma probe. It's not as effective as scoundrel, but scoundrel is not as effective at turret healing like mandos are.

Lol, because HtL isn't for kiting. Bacta infusion is Emergency medpack with a cooldown. Trauma probe and hammer shot do nothing from stopping an ally from being bursted down

I will totally give you mando being better at turret healing. Except Turret anything is a liability on anything that doesn't have entrench or perma unshakeable buff. Having you only interrupt immunity tied to your only DcD is also a liability in and of itself.

 

Sages heal with a more heal and run style very centered around force speed. Creating a gap to cast while the gap last, then heal with instants or channel.

Well no kidding that's sages class playstyle. The problem is Sages have to kite away then they can heal. Scoundrels can kite and heal at the same time. Also Sage's have the crappiest instants of all three. Only bubble and whatever their tier 3 heal is called (mind is blanking) Their AoE is near instant, with the proper stacks, and those stacks require a channel and that channel has to crit.

 

The only thing scoundrel as more as CC options is that their flashbang is AoE. (Also their sap but in combat it doesn't mean anything.) But they suffer from the lack of range on their CC. 10 meters on fb and melee for their stun. You'll probably tell me that AoE mez is what make it OP. I'll just tell you that scoundrel doesn't have any knockback.

Both mandos and sage's CC options are 10m and there is no way they will ever get whirlwind or concussion missile off against anything with a brian. (Tech override is too important to use on mezzing one target except for use in objective play, which dies with 2.4)

 

Scoundrel doesn't have the best kitting ability in the game at all. It has the worst kitting ability of the 3 healers. The only thing that get you out of melee is flashbang and dodge + disappearing act and both have a long cooldown (dodge + disappearing act use both scoundrel only real defensive ability).

You are forgetting scamper

6m teleport at worst. (instantly outranges melee)

Dat sniper about to cast ambush on you? scamper behind one of the dozens of los options available, and pop right back out like nothing happened.

 

Mando can leave melee range with hold the line or concussive charge.

Sage can leave melee range with force speed and force wave.

Sage and mando KB's are nothing more than a ravage interrupt. And they both have 30 sec cooldowns compared to a zero second cooldown.

 

And once again, you are using other healers to call scoundrel OP when it has been said over and over again that both the sage and mando needs a buff to their healing class.

It has been said over and over that mandos need a buff. The community is more less a even split as to whether sages are on-par or not.

 

Scoundrel is fine. The problem comes from DPS being too dumb to stun at 30%.

Also, guard for all the reasons I already mentioned.

And what stops any of the scoundrel's teammates stunning the dps while the scoundrel recovers himself?