Koozie's AP Guide

[TheronFett]

I've dedicated myself to AP for the remainder of the month in order to truly put it through the paces. Even after being gone for several months, I've been able to get back into Pyro without missing a beat. After re-organizing my keybinds, I'm finding that I'm gaining effectiveness with AP. A lot of it also revolves around play style. Pyro is more of a get in/get out kind of spec, whereas AP has more staying power and is more toe-to-toe.

 

This is the spec I've been running:

- Iron Fist (2 points): 8% dmg increase to Rocket Punch

- Rail Loaders (2 points): 6% dmg increase to Rail Shot

Gained:

+ Combust (2 points): 5% dmg debuff to target for 10 seconds

+ Rebraced Armor (2 points): 16% armor increase

 

I suppose it's trading a bit of damage for some added survivability. This spec is particularly effective against smashers. The added armor negates some of their stance's armor penetration, and with the 5% debuff combined with AP's AoE reduction, it leaves smash monkeys scratching their heads.

[Luckeyduckey]

I've dedicated myself to AP for the remainder of the month in order to truly put it through the paces. Even after being gone for several months, I've been able to get back into Pyro without missing a beat. After re-organizing my keybinds, I'm finding that I'm gaining effectiveness with AP. A lot of it also revolves around play style. Pyro is more of a get in/get out kind of spec, whereas AP has more staying power and is more toe-to-toe.

 

This is the spec I've been running:

- Iron Fist (2 points): 8% dmg increase to Rocket Punch

- Rail Loaders (2 points): 6% dmg increase to Rail Shot

Gained:

+ Combust (2 points): 5% dmg debuff to target for 10 seconds

+ Rebraced Armor (2 points): 16% armor increase

 

I suppose it's trading a bit of damage for some added survivability. This spec is particularly effective against smashers. The added armor negates some of their stance's armor penetration, and with the 5% debuff combined with AP's AoE reduction, it leaves smash monkeys scratching their heads.

 

This is decent for regs, but not worth it for Rateds unless you're using the Ion Cell Hybrid. I personally take Combust, but place the two from Rebraced Armor in Iron Fist when I run Ranked as DPS, unless we already have a Shield Tech, as Combust doesn't stack, and they'll be applying it more often because of Flame Sweep. Always good to see you in matches, though.

[TheronFett]

...unless you're using the Ion Cell Hybrid.

 

Must've missed the hybrid spec thread. I've been toying around w/ a hybrid and just put up almost 600k damage with it...running this build. All DPS gear except a shield generator.

Edited October 16, 2013 by TheronFett

[LordExozone]

Must've missed the hybrid spec thread. I've been toying around w/ a hybrid and just put up almost 600k damage with it...running this build. All DPS gear except a shield generator.

 

The hybrid spec they talk about is the 11/35 spec I believe. So Shieldtech up to Oil Slick, rest in AP.

I've toyed with the spec you linked some time ago. It's quite fun, but you give up a lot of really good talents high up in the AP tree for the charge. Atm I'm playing full AP but in ion cylinder (10/36/0). Same setup as you, so with dps gear + shield generator. Not really a hybrid, but more of a tough DPS that can also guard someone when needed. Flexible, and I like it. Compared to your hybrid it does very respectable damage with decent burst (immolate + the extra shoulder rockets), and less active/situational survivability but more passive survivability (30% AOE and 30% stun damage reduction vs jet charge and oil slick).

 

I like how we have some options still that provide us with some flexibility. Unlike some of the whiners on these forums would have us believe, none of the AP/Shieldtech/Ion Cylinder combo's are overpowered in any way. They are effective, but you do make significant sacrifices. The damage loss is quite significant in all cases, at least 10 to 15% (-5% from ion cylinder, -5% elemental/internal damage from not using HEGC, -5% tech damage from using a shield generator), probably more around 20% due to the cylinder restrictions (no passive heat venting, no auto critting railshots) and a further reduction due to taking defensive talents over offensive ones (for example combust over railloaders) and you loose out on a lot of burst potential as well.

For that, you get a roughly 10% passive survivability boost and the ability to guard someone. However, in just as many cases where that pays off, you get into situations where that extra burst and dps that you gave up would have been more useful to the team.

Edited October 21, 2013 by LordExozone

[Melon_Lord]

Speaking of Hybrid, It seems like the 2/22/22 spec is still doing better then either full AP or Pyro by 150 dps or so. I'm curious if Bioware is going to nerf the lower abilities again.

[T-Assassin]

Speaking of Hybrid, It seems like the 2/22/22 spec is still doing better then either full AP or Pyro by 150 dps or so. I'm curious if Bioware is going to nerf the lower abilities again.

 

Probably. Unless they pull their heads outta their arse and actually make TD/AP worth taking.

 

Still rocking 8-8-30, and setting VG DPS records every time I run a OP or FP in 72's and all PuGs. And I could easily up my DPS by 200 running 2/22/22, I just dislike the play style.

 

[Megatfx]

The guide is really nice. I used it as I had never played AP before until 2.4 and I recommend it to others when they ask me how to play AP. My only criticism is the unnecessary back pedaling in your PvP videos. Your DPS rotations are great, you use your abilities correctly, but the back pedaling retracts from your ability and causes unnecessary positioning errors and removes all enjoyment from watching your videos from my perspective.

 

I've heard all the arguements for back pedaling, so you can say a million times how it makes you more effective, but I can give you a play by play on how it forced positioning errors on multiple occasions in your video and kind of makes you look like a total noob even though I know you're not. If you back pedaled maybe a step or two, I probably wouldn't say anything (I'd cringe, but not say anything), but you back pedal upwards of 10-15m multiple times in your video and actually have to run forward a just to get in range to do a standard attack, this is in the opening scene of your movie. You even used Hydraulic Overrides back pedal which is akin to Force Speed back pedal. Your final scene where you do the grapple in the firepit on the ball carrier you back pedal out and die and luckily still kill the enemy ball carrier. Had you strafed out of the fire pit you would have survived.

 

When I watch your video, it looks to me as if everytime you press your back keybind, I'm picturing you staring at your bars planning your next attack, instead of watching what is actually happening around you. This can also be caused due to the configuration of certain keybinds making "S" the easiest key for you to hit while you're trying to hit a specific keybind. If you can stop the back pedaling which I think is due to bar watching, then I believe you'll up your playing ability by several leagues.

 

Food for thought. Take from it what you wish, just my honest opinion. I won't care, nor respond to arguments to back pedalings validity in a PvP environment as it's been beaten to death and the best PvPers know that it will always be inefficient to strafing.

 

I'm giving the tip because I believe you have the potential to be even better than you already are and since there are zero PT's who make PvP videos I'll hope you work on it and make a new video. That'll be something I'd find really enjoyable and top tier players will actually want to watch.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Megatfx

[DarthOvertone]

I like how we have some options still that provide us with some flexibility. Unlike some of the whiners on these forums would have us believe, none of the AP/Shieldtech/Ion Cylinder combo's are overpowered in any way. They are effective, but you do make significant sacrifices. The damage loss is quite significant in all cases, at least 10 to 15% (-5% from ion cylinder, -5% elemental/internal damage from not using HEGC, -5% tech damage from using a shield generator), probably more around 20% due to the cylinder restrictions (no passive heat venting, no auto critting railshots) and a further reduction due to taking defensive talents over offensive ones (for example combust over railloaders) and you loose out on a lot of burst potential as well.

 

For that, you get a roughly 10% passive survivability boost and the ability to guard someone. However, in just as many cases where that pays off, you get into situations where that extra burst and dps that you gave up would have been more useful to the team.

 

Agreed. Heat management is always an issue for my PT while running an Ion Hybrid. It's one of the reasons I always go up Shield Tech enough for Shield Vents.

 

SRAs I've been running full AP though and the difference is astounding with HGC. Just feels like my PT never overheats even when I'm blowing out everything I can.

 

So there is definitely a significant sacrifice occurring there. For some team utility and additional survivability, you are giving up a substantial amount of DPS potential.

[trojan_killa]

Got a question for you. Why do you put points in critical chance? Wouldn't it be better to stack only power + surge? with neglecting crit chance you have like 19% crit chance overall. But you're crit chances are being buffed in your skill tree.

So you stack a lot more power.

[Brunner_Venda]

Backpedal has a couple of uses, extremely rare but valid. To be honest I don't have it bound, but I know people that swear by it when fighting maul sins. It's kind of like missile blast. The heat and damage suck on it, so I don't use it excep to prevent a spam cap at long range.

 

As for crit, you're losing 50 or so in bonus damage from power to get another 3% more crit. It's not optimal, but when you're as good as kazooie, you're allowed a little latitude and flexibility in your setup. We're arguing about numbers here that really don't make a big enough difference.

[TheronFett]

After putting AP through the paces, both full spec and as the Ion hybrid, I've come to the following conclusions...

 

AP is more viable than it ever was, that's for certain. It lacks a lot of burst damage, but is a consistent and reliable spec that fares well in 8v8 and 4v4 matches. Solid defense, predictable offense. On a 1-10 scale, AP sits at a firm 7 in my book. That said, I think AP is more geared towards PUGs and those who solo queue because as a standalone build, AP is far too reliant on PFT for any meaningful damage.

 

For running with a premade, I still prefer Pyro. The facewrecking potential is far greater, sorry. AP is solid, but it lacks the burst damage to be a viable competitive spec IMHO. AP works better in tandem with a 2nd AP, and it's just not worth giving up 2 slots...not when a single Pyro could be just as effective.

[DarthOvertone]

After putting AP through the paces, both full spec and as the Ion hybrid, I've come to the following conclusions...

 

AP is more viable than it ever was, that's for certain. It lacks a lot of burst damage, but is a consistent and reliable spec that fares well in 8v8 and 4v4 matches. Solid defense, predictable offense. On a 1-10 scale, AP sits at a firm 7 in my book. That said, I think AP is more geared towards PUGs and those who solo queue because as a standalone build, AP is far too reliant on PFT for any meaningful damage.

 

For running with a premade, I still prefer Pyro. The facewrecking potential is far greater, sorry. AP is solid, but it lacks the burst damage to be a viable competitive spec IMHO. AP works better in tandem with a 2nd AP, and it's just not worth giving up 2 slots...not when a single Pyro could be just as effective.

 

Interesting assessment.

 

I found Full AP to be very disappointing in Rated mainly because PFT just isn't reliable, period. No opponents with any skill or intelligence whatsoever will let you get one off. It has some potential in a group with other PTs, but solo, it's garbage.

 

AP Hybrid/Ion is very good in Group Ranked if you are adept at managing your Heat. The Hybrid is really the best use of AP.

 

And I agree. Pyro is our best DPS spec currently in Solo Rated. I don't doubt there are AP PTs out there that can match Pyro numbers, I even do it myself sometimes. However, playstyle-wise Pyro is simply the better fit for PTs because of our reliance on movement and kiting in competitive PvP. Pyro's burst is viable, not great, but it certainly is better than AP.

[Brunner_Venda]

I love pyro, I'm just no good with it in any kind of 1v1 situation. Mostly because pyro defenses still aren't there yet. It works best in a premade, because it fits well with a tank and pocket healer.

 

AP takes every idiocy and stupidity in this **** PVP design and smooths out the worst of the rough edges. It's to the point where I can't stand to play anything else.

 

- AP takes 30% less damage from smash, which means you rarely see more than 5-6K from the most complained-about attack in the game.

- AP gets longer hydraulic overrides, because the amount of slows and roots is just ridiculous and stupid.

- AP runs 20% faster in combat, mobility is always good when everyone runs away from you.

- AP takes 30% less damage while derp stunned, because the stuns in game are out of control. You get a free shield just because some idiot hit his CC button.

- AP uses combat tech set, which shaves off 15 seconds from your stun breaker, because the number of stuns people have available is just plain stupid.

- AP has energy rebounder - which makes shields available almost all the time, because the TTK is way to low.

- AP has kolto overload, which helps win duels even without the damage reduction.

- AP gets three extra shoulder cannons, and five rockets load right away. This gives lots of extra burst, and prevent caps while stunned.

- AP PFT damage is simply amazing even though it isn't easy to pull off, but if the other guy is stunned or grenade-knocked to the floor they can't exactly stop it. Smash doesn't stop it either.

- AP Can take down an OP healer with careful use of explosive fuel, shoulder cannon, stuns, and PFT. Pyro is a bit harder because they constantly cleanse the DOTs.

- AP damage is mostly elemental/fire, which can't be shielded, dodged, or defended against - and it goes right through all armor. AP with HEGC tears tanks to shreds. Pyro is almost all white damage (rail shot) and the reverse is often true.

 

When I run pyro, I tend to miss all of the above, and let's be honest. Pyro is a smasher/stunner punching bag.

 

No thanks, I just don't see how the rest of you cope with it.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Brunner_Venda

[Mursie]

Koozie,

 

this guide is a straight AP dps build yes>? Your build has points and runs HEGC.

 

Is this your ranked build or is their an ion cell/sheild generator build you run in ranked?

 

I'm asking because I thought all the rage was a near full DPS build in AP running ion cell... but it does not appear that is what your guide is suggesting. Maybe I missed something. Can you please elaborate on the pros/cons of your build in ranked relative to ion cell.. or are we talking the same thing

[TheronFett]

Cylinder - HEGC

 

Considering it's near the top of his guide and featured in the videos he's posted, he's running a full AP build with HEGC.

 

Which, by a lot of standards, isn't really the way to go for a PvP spec right now. You can put up almost as much damage while being a lot more difficult to kill, plus have the option to guard, with the Ion Cell hybrid.

[Brunner_Venda]

Considering it's near the top of his guide and featured in the videos he's posted, he's running a full AP build with HEGC.

 

Which, by a lot of standards, isn't really the way to go for a PvP spec right now. You can put up almost as much damage while being a lot more difficult to kill, plus have the option to guard, with the Ion Cell hybrid.

 

Simple reason: Because HEGC destroys ION AP . With all of the HEGC elemental damage, the extra armor ion has doesn't make a difference. The HEGC stance always wins the DPS race.

 

Now I will admit that ion hybrid is great against other light saber classes, especially assassins. Chances are I'm going to have to switch after the Biofail idiots buff the assassin burst through the roof.

[TheronFett]

Simple reason: Because HEGC destroys ION AP . With all of the HEGC elemental damage, the extra armor ion has doesn't make a difference. The HEGC stance always wins the DPS race.

 

HEGC doesn't always win, not even close. I regularly beat full AP specs while running the hybrid. It goes further than just the added armor. IGC gets 45% damage reduction, plus 20/20 shield/absorb without running any defense gear. I also spec into Combust, which gives another 5% DR debuff to the target.

 

The hybrid adds a lot of defense and doesn't remove a lot of offense capability.

[Brunner_Venda]

HEGC doesn't always win, not even close. I regularly beat full AP specs while running the hybrid. It goes further than just the added armor. IGC gets 45% damage reduction, plus 20/20 shield/absorb without running any defense gear. I also spec into Combust, which gives another 5% DR debuff to the target.

 

The hybrid adds a lot of defense and doesn't remove a lot of offense capability.

 

IEGC gets 5% damage reduction, where are you getting 45? Are you counting armor?

http://www.torhead.com/ability/3SQar1G/ion-gas-cylinder

 

You also need to understand damage rolls and types:

1. Shield chance doesn't work on crits, nor can elemental damage be shielded.

Immolate, flame burst, flame sweep, PFT, and auto crit rail shot can't be shielded. That's almost the entire AP arsenal!

 

2. Armor does no good against elemental and little good against armor pen attacks. That's everything above.

 

3. You lose 5% damage from turning off HEGC. You lose another 5% by turning on IEGC. You're losing the auto crit on rail shot, and all of the cylinder venting for heat. You're probably losing 8% from rocket punch for tank tree stuff, 6% off hyper fuel damage on all fire effects, and another 1% from prototype cylinders. You're a minimum of 15% less overall DPS short term, and at least twice that (30%) on a five minute parse due to heat management. Least of all you lose 20% speed and will have a hard time kiting someone trying to retractable blade you.

 

In exchange, you get defense that is largely ineffective against AP.

 

I disagree mate, but I won't argue that the 40% armor, 20% shield, and 5% DR isn't NICE against assassins and smash monkeys. That's going to be EVERYONE post 2.5. I'll be switching more than likely to a 'no immolate-oil slick setup. I hear that makes deception sins cry.

[Kooziejr]

Koozie,

 

this guide is a straight AP dps build yes>? Your build has points and runs HEGC.

 

Is this your ranked build or is their an ion cell/sheild generator build you run in ranked?

 

I'm asking because I thought all the rage was a near full DPS build in AP running ion cell... but it does not appear that is what your guide is suggesting. Maybe I missed something. Can you please elaborate on the pros/cons of your build in ranked relative to ion cell.. or are we talking the same thing

 

I play group ranked as a DPS 90% of the time. Therefore I am not going to be running ion gas it gimps your damage massively. Please post screen shot of 2000dps in 8 v 8 with ion gas or greater than 1600dps in group ranked with ion....not going to happen...when I tank I play in ion gas and I notice my dps is complete **** because I play AP properly most of the time. I pull as much damage as a mara and if we lose the mara usually dies before me.....AP IS NOT SQuishy with hegc.....especially if u have a good tank on ur team....in solo q sure play ion gas because u get a guard as a dps which is cool. but for group ranked u better be playing in hegc if ur a dps or ur team is going down against anyone half decent. Ps sorry for no replies im on holidays for 3 weeks....finally got a night off haha

[Kooziejr]

And yes hegc beats ion gas. Duel me if u think im wrong. Dont reply in the forums...just words bro.

 

I never have the problem u guys have with pft hey....dont know why its so unreliable...yes it doesn't always work but if u just spam it whenever then derrrrrr you have to use a bit of skill. Pyro is okay but it goes down pretty hard in group ranked...the aoe dmg really puts it under so much pressure. I like both specs and have countless pplaytime so I wont say which one is better but I certainly feel alot more in control in ap with greater burst potential allbeit once every minute or so... people forget how bad the pyro bleeds are. They can be cleansed by 4 of 8 classes haha. And barrier cleanses them too. U have to be oh so careful when using ur im and td as pyro and then railshotting as lots of the time they end up hitting for next to nothing...I certainly know I absolutely trash pyros on every toon ....most of them are bad though but most pyros have always been really bad because its easy mode burst

Edited November 4, 2013 by Kooziejr

[Ottoattack]

I love pyro, I'm just no good with it in any kind of 1v1 situation. Mostly because pyro defenses still aren't there yet. It works best in a premade, because it fits well with a tank and pocket healer.

 

AP takes every idiocy and stupidity in this **** PVP design and smooths out the worst of the rough edges. It's to the point where I can't stand to play anything else.

 

- AP takes 30% less damage from smash, which means you rarely see more than 5-6K from the most complained-about attack in the game.

- AP gets longer hydraulic overrides, because the amount of slows and roots is just ridiculous and stupid.

- AP runs 20% faster in combat, mobility is always good when everyone runs away from you.

- AP takes 30% less damage while derp stunned, because the stuns in game are out of control. You get a free shield just because some idiot hit his CC button.

- AP uses combat tech set, which shaves off 15 seconds from your stun breaker, because the number of stuns people have available is just plain stupid.

- AP has energy rebounder - which makes shields available almost all the time, because the TTK is way to low.

- AP has kolto overload, which helps win duels even without the damage reduction.

- AP gets three extra shoulder cannons, and five rockets load right away. This gives lots of extra burst, and prevent caps while stunned.

- AP PFT damage is simply amazing even though it isn't easy to pull off, but if the other guy is stunned or grenade-knocked to the floor they can't exactly stop it. Smash doesn't stop it either.

- AP Can take down an OP healer with careful use of explosive fuel, shoulder cannon, stuns, and PFT. Pyro is a bit harder because they constantly cleanse the DOTs.

- AP damage is mostly elemental/fire, which can't be shielded, dodged, or defended against - and it goes right through all armor. AP with HEGC tears tanks to shreds. Pyro is almost all white damage (rail shot) and the reverse is often true.

 

When I run pyro, I tend to miss all of the above, and let's be honest. Pyro is a smasher/stunner punching bag.

 

No thanks, I just don't see how the rest of you cope with it.

 

I totally agree with you. I tried rolling pyro a couple of times, since 2.4, and every time its 1-2 games, and I regret it. AP is vastly superior in every aspect and highly competitive against all specs and in all situations. I call AP, jack of all trades. It can perform very well in all situations. It has good burst, but it not like MM sniper. It has great DCDs, but not as strong as rage marauder, its one of the strongest solo specs, but not the strongest, etc.. It shines though as the anti aoe spec though. Nothing rage hates more than skilled AP PT.

 

Also, if you are in dps spot, you should not run ion cylinder. That is only for situational use, like you are qued in arena, and you want to guard healer, or you are solo defending node. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason to run ion cylinder as dps. The extra survivability is not needed and its a huge gimp on dps.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Kooziejr]

Noted. Thanks for the construtive criticism. I do have an issue with u saying I give myself positioning errors eg. The first clip....I backpeddled to use a 30m ability because he had an aoe orbital strike down...I then approached once it ticked and continued my rotation......in my opinion this could not have been donw better it was just unfortunate the railshot missed. Last question.....when you say top tier players who exactly r u referring to?.....and please I dont bar watch...thats an unnecessary insult...... Edited November 5, 2013 by Kooziejr

[Kooziejr]

The guide is really nice. I used it as I had never played AP before until 2.4 and I recommend it to others when they ask me how to play AP. My only criticism is the unnecessary back pedaling in your PvP videos. Your DPS rotations are great, you use your abilities correctly, but the back pedaling retracts from your ability and causes unnecessary positioning errors and removes all enjoyment from watching your videos from my perspective.

 

I've heard all the arguements for back pedaling, so you can say a million times how it makes you more effective, but I can give you a play by play on how it forced positioning errors on multiple occasions in your video and kind of makes you look like a total noob even though I know you're not. If you back pedaled maybe a step or two, I probably wouldn't say anything (I'd cringe, but not say anything), but you back pedal upwards of 10-15m multiple times in your video and actually have to run forward a just to get in range to do a standard attack, this is in the opening scene of your movie. You even used Hydraulic Overrides back pedal which is akin to Force Speed back pedal. Your final scene where you do the grapple in the firepit on the ball carrier you back pedal out and die and luckily still kill the enemy ball carrier. Had you strafed out of the fire pit you would have survived.

 

When I watch your video, it looks to me as if everytime you press your back keybind, I'm picturing you staring at your bars planning your next attack, instead of watching what is actually happening around you. This can also be caused due to the configuration of certain keybinds making "S" the easiest key for you to hit while you're trying to hit a specific keybind. If you can stop the back pedaling which I think is due to bar watching, then I believe you'll up your playing ability by several leagues.

 

Food for thought. Take from it what you wish, just my honest opinion. I won't care, nor respond to arguments to back pedalings validity in a PvP environment as it's been beaten to death and the best PvPers know that it will always be inefficient to strafing.

 

I'm giving the tip because I believe you have the potential to be even better than you already are and since there are zero PT's who make PvP videos I'll hope you work on it and make a new video. That'll be something I'd find really enjoyable and top tier players will actually want to watch.

 

Mobile phone sigh

[Mursie]

Mobile phone sigh

 

Hey koozie.. I read somewhere that sin tank is your team meta of choice. Can you elaborate more on what he's doing? Is he full tank spec with tank gear? i read these shadow boards and they make tank out to be complete garbage in pvp.

[Kooziejr]

Hey koozie.. I read somewhere that sin tank is your team meta of choice. Can you elaborate more on what he's doing? Is he full tank spec with tank gear? i read these shadow boards and they make tank out to be complete garbage in pvp.

 

He takes low slash and force pull and wears full tank gear. He is an excellent player though. Actually out of the 25-30 ranked games we played before i went on hols we only lost 2 and our healer dcd both times with the comp. That being said we didnt play the best team on our server and a few of the good teams were on alts but yeah its very solid. The idea behind the low slash is that he continually ccs the healer and the 2 dps focus someone else while he whirlwinds, low slashes, electocutes, spikes, interrupts, knockbacks, and pulls their healer. Your healer has to stay close though it does require some coordination.

 

Its not a meta choice I will play with any tank just happens our guild is small...I dont believe any class is sooooo far ahead. Actually the toughest game we played and almost lost was against pt tank 2 merc dps and an op healer.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Kooziejr