The Scoundrel Answers came out

[DresG]

The spec needs a talent that allows the use of Hidden Strike when not stealthed and reset its cooldown, personally I would place it in Tactical Oportunity that way when Collateral Damage procs it allows HS to be used instead of granting Tactical Advantage.

 

As much as I would like more defensive cooldowns on my op, I do not want it to turn into another sentinel/marauder-like class. I find the op to have good survivability, thanks to my troll roll, but you have to bring your dps to 0 in order to escape and then you need a healer to heal you back to full because you certainly wont have any energy left after 4+ rolls, so its all very situational.

[JohnElias]

hidden strike is not the issue, dps-wise. The issue is that there is a lull in our dps 'rotation' (for a lack of a better term).

This could be resolved by having a skill decrease the cooldown on backstab back to what it was a few patches ago.

 

I have been crying for backstab to have an 8s cool down. I don't want hidden strike to be used out of stealth. I wouldn't mind if it auto crit from stealth, but I think a reduction in backstab cooldown could and most likely will help the class.

 

Edit: The reason I mentioned HS is to refute EM's logic on the first question he replied to.

Edited September 11, 2013 by JohnElias

[killerbugz]

I feel like our reps dropped the ball by focusing on shoot first.I believe the main issue for scrappers are their bread

 

and butter abilities out of stealth which are sucker punch (which requires a resource tied to an ability on a 6

 

secondcd)(yes you can spec into heals for the ability to get upperhand through underworld medicine but who s

 

trying to cast a long heal to finish someone off) and backblast which is on a 12 second cd. If somehow scrappers

 

can gain access to more upperhands and have the cd on backblast re worked they will be fine.

 

I primarily play dirty fighting and i have absolutely no issues with survivablity. When i play scrapper i am i bit more

 

cautious about my engagement. Learning how to let go of trying to executed a shoot first in the middle of a pack of

 

4 enemies is key. Also anticapating when your about to get focused and getting the f***K out of dodge before it

 

happens(not at 20 percent hp) really helps. oh and one last thing ffs stop clipping your flechette rounds. they dont

 

stack wait until the one you apply from shoot first finishes before you backblast.

 

that is all

 

crownsolo

[PloGreen]

What we want is to be viable in a group fight and we are currently far from it. We are decent in 1v1s (nowhere near god mode), but we are cannon fodder in any kind of node contention. PvP here is not about 1v1s.

 

The scrapper/concealment spec only excels at trolling new/poor players.

 

Roll something else then or carry on dreaming.

[killerbugz]

Roll something else then or carry on dreaming.

 

or spec dirty fighting

[JohnElias]

I feel like our reps dropped the ball by focusing on shoot first.I believe the main issue for scrappers are their bread

 

and butter abilities out of stealth which are sucker punch (which requires a resource tied to an ability on a 6

 

secondcd)(yes you can spec into heals for the ability to get upperhand through underworld medicine but who s

 

trying to cast a long heal to finish someone off) and backblast which is on a 12 second cd. If somehow scrappers

 

can gain access to more upperhands and have the cd on backblast re worked they will be fine.

 

I primarily play dirty fighting and i have absolutely no issues with survivablity. When i play scrapper i am i bit more

 

cautious about my engagement. Learning how to let go of trying to executed a shoot first in the middle of a pack of

 

4 enemies is key. Also anticapating when your about to get focused and getting the f***K out of dodge before it

 

happens(not at 20 percent hp) really helps. oh and one last thing ffs stop clipping your flechette rounds. they dont

 

stack wait until the one you apply from shoot first finishes before you backblast.

 

that is all

 

crownsolo

 

Agreed, luckily Scold can touch on those issues when he submits his own 3 questions. Definitely don't shy from the Operative forums and give your feedback man. The Operative forums have been quiet concerning this round of answers. I feel like they are too busy (rerolling! /joke)

[NogueiraA]

This is why the stealth class in GW2 is far superior. There's no permanent stealth, but you can re-stealth all the time.

Imagine if Blaster Whip/Shiv was a hit-stealth skill that grants stealth for 2.5sec and sure the knockdown from Hidden Strike/Shoot First would be nerfed.

[DresG]

I primarily play dirty fighting and i have absolutely no issues with survivablity. When i play scrapper i am i bit more

 

cautious about my engagement. Learning how to let go of trying to executed a shoot first in the middle of a pack of

 

4 enemies is key. Also anticapating when your about to get focused and getting the f***K out of dodge before it

 

happens(not at 20 percent hp) really helps.

Pretty much this, you shouldn't be able to facetank with any class in this game (this is the reason why sent/mara dcd need to be toned down)

 

I think a defensive cooldown like force camouflage would be great for our class. For example make it only last 2 seconds, low cooldown and depending on spec either give a free roll or a free kolto infusion, this is only so you can avoid getting focused. This could also double as offensive cooldown by allowing you a small window of time to do hidden strike.

[JohnElias]

Pretty much this, you shouldn't be able to facetank with any class in this game (this is the reason why sent/mara dcd need to be toned down)

 

I think a defensive cooldown like force camouflage would be great for our class. For example make it only last 2 seconds, low cooldown and depending on spec either give a free roll or a free kolto infusion, this is only so you can avoid getting focused. This could also double as offensive cooldown by allowing you a small window of time to do hidden strike.

 

And the way they can remove the knock down on Hidden Strike is so that if you are in combat, the knock down will not happen. Of course the camo would be like the SW/JK where we remain in combat.

 

This way we can use Cloaking Screen defensively.

[DresG]

And the way they can remove the knock down on Hidden Strike is so that if you are in combat, the knock down will not happen. Of course the camo would be like the SW/JK where we remain in combat.

 

This way we can use Cloaking Screen defensively.

 

Ya, the knockdown is already powerful enough as it is, it would be too much if it could happen frequently. I insist a short duration, remain-in-combat stealth would solve all our survivability issues without making us so op that we can facetank.

[Carter_Mathis]

I feel like our reps dropped the ball by focusing on shoot first.I believe the main issue for scrappers are their bread

 

and butter abilities out of stealth which are sucker punch (which requires a resource tied to an ability on a 6

 

secondcd)(yes you can spec into heals for the ability to get upperhand through underworld medicine but who s

 

trying to cast a long heal to finish someone off) and backblast which is on a 12 second cd. If somehow scrappers

 

can gain access to more upperhands and have the cd on backblast re worked they will be fine.

 

I primarily play dirty fighting and i have absolutely no issues with survivablity. When i play scrapper i am i bit more

 

cautious about my engagement. Learning how to let go of trying to executed a shoot first in the middle of a pack of

 

4 enemies is key. Also anticapating when your about to get focused and getting the f***K out of dodge before it

 

happens(not at 20 percent hp) really helps. oh and one last thing ffs stop clipping your flechette rounds. they dont

 

stack wait until the one you apply from shoot first finishes before you backblast.

 

that is all

 

crownsolo

 

The reps wanted to make the rotation/priority system for Scrapper to feel more fluid, and bringing in a proc to allow for the use of a highly sought after ability that has a lot of traited and passive damage buffs (as well as applies Flechette Round) was a creative, rational way of going about it. If you wanted different questions to have been asked, I reccomend that next time the Scoundrel community drafts their top 3 questions (see the 16pg thread on our class forums) you speak up and let your opinion be heard rather than remaining silent for the entire process.

 

Additionally, survivability questions were based around the necessity for players to actually fight during warzones, and large group conflict (as well as 4v4 deathmatches in arenas) being unavoidable in competitive pvp. These questions were crafted through the joint effort of some of the best scoundrels/players in this game with the key support of KeyboardNinja, who is the most insightful and intelligent ToR forums poster that I have ever come across. These are real concerns that weren't made by people who are fresh 55's, relatively new to pvp, or even have much that they could possibly improve upon, they were made through a genuine concern for the future and viability of our class due to distinct, empirical differences between the performance of Scrapper (and to a lesser extent Dirty Fighting) and viable dps specs.

[Carter_Mathis]

And the way they can remove the knock down on Hidden Strike is so that if you are in combat, the knock down will not happen. Of course the camo would be like the SW/JK where we remain in combat.

 

This way we can use Cloaking Screen defensively.

 

I'd personally favor a specific proc that allows for a Shoot First but bars the knockdown, just because there are instances where you entered stealth through an out-of-combat stealth but are put into combat through slows or taunts or the wrath of the pvp gods. This way, at least the first knockdown is correctly applied.

[Capt_Beers]

Maul - Has a positional and a recommended proc. No cooldown and hits harder..

Heat Seeker - Very crit dependent. Has no increase to crit chance in tree/set bonus only to crit damage. Also requires an interruptable cast to set up. If you don't have the 1.5 seconds require to use a single Tracer Missle, I pity you.

Smash - I agree. Yep.

Dispatch - Execute, requires >30% HP unless you have a proc for it, white damage can miss but almost never does.

Assassinate - Execute, requires >30% HP, white damage can miss but almost never does.

Ravage - Easily avoided via stun, KB or moving.

 

Shoot First- Stealth dependent. Very crit dependent. Can be prevented by stealth detection abilities or splash aoe. Applies a decent knockdown and does okay damage.

 

One ability is a bit worse than the others

 

You do get a 16% crit chance increase in your tree though. HSM doesn't get that. If a Mara or Veng Jugg leaps to you good luck getting that TM off to set up an HSM without using another long CD (Stun, Power Surge, E Net etc).

 

The Maul proc is required if you want it to hit hard otherwise you use half your force to hit for about 3k.

 

As for the executes use Dodge. Your class has a 100% evasion CD, my scoundrel isn't 55 yet but that's what I use it for.

 

As for stealth detection/splash damage that is part of playing a stealth class. I don't walk through the middle of the fight when in stealth and I stay away from people, teammates and opponents to avoid splash damage.

 

I'm not saying that DPS Ops/Scoundrels are perfect. I have seen some good ones though. They are a harder to play class for DPS than most of the others, that is for sure.

[JackNader]

I wonder what would happen if Bioware gave sins and operatives a camo style ability instead of their "combat exit." hmmmmmmm

[Carter_Mathis]

You do get a 16% crit chance increase in your tree though. HSM doesn't get that. If a Mara or Veng Jugg leaps to you good luck getting that TM off to set up an HSM without using another long CD (Stun, Power Surge, E Net etc).

 

The Maul proc is required if you want it to hit hard otherwise you use half your force to hit for about 3k.

 

As for the executes use Dodge. Your class has a 100% evasion CD, my scoundrel isn't 55 yet but that's what I use it for.

 

As for stealth detection/splash damage that is part of playing a stealth class. I don't walk through the middle of the fight when in stealth and I stay away from people, teammates and opponents to avoid splash damage.

 

I'm not saying that DPS Ops/Scoundrels are perfect. I have seen some good ones though. They are a harder to play class for DPS than most of the others, that is for sure.

 

HSM- You get to use it an awful lot more than we get to Shoot First. +16% Crit chance is nice and all, but it's used extremely infrequently.

Maul- You assumed a non-crit on your Maul, it will still go for big numbers if it crits, please include a range if you realy want to discuss it's effectiveness.

 

I wouldn't recommend comparing cooldowns when discussing Scoundrel abilities vs most other classes. We can Dodge and execute, but that cooldown is just as long as the long cooldown you described on your stuns for Mercs. Additionally, both mercs and shadows have abilities that entirely mitigate our Tech attacks. When discussing current Scoundrel Dps survivability (especially in a group setting), we'll always come out on the bottom

[Wainamoinen]

They didnt say cheaper quick shot......they said it should be doing MORE dmg for its current cost. And that they will look at rebalancing.

Wrong. Read the response.

Quick Shot/Overload Shot is admittedly a poor filler ability. A scoring check reveals that, for its energy cost, it should deal more damage than it does, and we can fix that in a patch by properly rebalancing the ability. Hopefully, rebalancing Quick Shot/Overload Shot will make it into the competent filler attack that it was meant to be.

 

They say "rebalance" it in terms of energy/damage (currently it does poor damage in return for emptying your energy). Now that might mean more damage, or more likely, it might cost less to use. I don't believe they'd up the damage on a filler ability to big-hitter levels (at some indefinite point in the far future), so reducing the cost is the probable result.

 

They also stated that Scrapper was weak in defensives and was looking at pulling a defensive from the heal tree to scrapper tree.

 

Wrong. Read the response. The specific defensive improvement they mention at length:

As for upcoming survivability changes, we are planning to make a change to Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen (and also to Force Cloak, for any Jedi Shadows or Sith Assassins that may be reading this) so that it no longer decreases all healing received by 100%. It will still decrease all healing done by 100%, so Scoundrel/Operative healers will not be able to continue healing themselves or their allies with their heal-over-time abilities from the hidden safety of stealth mode. But this change will allow Scoundrels/Operatives to be healed by other allies immediately after using Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen, which should help to address both Scoundrel/Operative survivability in group situations and, to some extent, the “Lone Wolf” issue you mentioned in the first question.

 

Frankly, I found this response bizzare, because Scrappers ALREADY can be healed after using Disappearing Act, due to the default-choice talent Fight or Flight in tier four.

 

I don't see how giving us an ability we already have - and is pretty rubbish in any case - is going to improve survivability... by leaving us just as we are.

 

You do get half a point after that, when they say they may move some healer-tree defensive skills over. But no mention what, or when, if ever.

So isnt that the 2 big concerns? Sustained dmg and defensives? Or would you just like God Mode and wont be happy with anything less than that? We should be looking for small changes that wont get nerfed 2 weeks later. See how the changes stack and then go from there.

 

If you think tweaking Quick Shot and err... giving us something we already have... is going to fix the class, then you just qualified for the special pointy hat in the corner. Like I said, you obviously know nothing about the class. And when you know nothing, it's a good time to shut up and listen. You're unqualified to comment.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Roysten]

The tone of the reply is nice and respectful, the ignorance of the class is obvious. The changes that are coming are irrelevant and the decisions have already been made driven shoddy metrics. The whole exercise is a bit of PR which at least succeeds slightly better than the slap given to sorcs and PTs.

Healing will still have no energy management and Dps will still be too squishy.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Roysten

[Wainamoinen]

I feel like our reps dropped the ball by focusing on shoot first.

 

To be fair, I think it was a decent job on the questions. They're not meant to be a buff wishlist (sorcs did that, boy were they happy when they didn't get their Christmas list waved through), they're to get an idea of the devs' thinking about aspects the class.

 

And I think they probably succeeded in that aim. And the devs' thinking is that there are no great problems with Scrapper DPS or survivability; they might give a little buff to a pointless attack ability (Quick Shot); something that doesn't make sense to me because it sounded like a defensive buff we already had and vague talk about moving a defensive ability over form the OP healing tree at some future point. The general impression was that of a lack of understanding of how the class plays.

 

Which tells me that the devs' view of Scrapper is way off that of mine, and that of every experienced Scrapper or Concealment Operative I know.

 

I've been a sub since early access, and played Scrapper in PvP since 1.2, got Elite Warlord on him in November 2012 - I've played it a lot. I parse and analyse my own logs and gear (I'm a statistician in real life). I'm not the best player in the world, but I don't think there's much people can tell me about how the class plays.

 

After hanging on for months in the hope matters would improve, I now have the prospect of PvP losing the extra layers of interest that reward smart play and allow underpowered specs some room, and turning into brute-power deathmatch instead, while there's no prospect of the class I want to play ever being fixed. It will be unusable in arenas (I've played on PTS a bit too). Which means I've cancelled and am working off some of my irritation during the remaining time on my sub.

 

Bright side for non-scrappers/conc-ops: you won't have to listen to people wailing about its uselessness much longer, because there will be literally no-one playing it.

 

No more Han Solo any more. A strange sort of Star Wars.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Carter_Mathis]

I guess it didn't really matter that Bioware doesn't follow Ranked matches either, since no Scrappers ever were on a competitve ranked team

[Cordorian]

To be fair, I think it was a decent job on the questions. They're not meant to be a buff wishlist (sorcs did that, boy were they happy when they didn't get their Christmas list waved through), they're to get an idea of the devs' thinking about aspects the class.

 

And I think they probably succeeded in that aim. And the devs' thinking is that there are no great problems with Scrapper DPS or survivability; they might give a little buff to a pointless attack ability (Quick Shot); something that doesn't make sense to me because it sounded like a defensive buff we already had and vague talk about moving a defensive ability over form the OP healing tree at some future point. The general impression was that of a lack of understanding of how the class plays.

 

Which tells me that the devs' view of Scrapper is way off that of mine, and that of every experienced Scrapper or Concealment Operative I know.

 

I've been a sub since early access, and played Scrapper in PvP since 1.2, got Elite Warlord on him in November 2012 - I've played it a lot. I parse and analyse my own logs and gear (I'm a statistician in real life). I'm not the best player in the world, but I don't think there's much people can tell me about how the class plays.

 

After hanging on for months in the hope matters would improve, I now have the prospect of PvP losing the extra layers of interest that reward smart play and allow underpowered specs some room, and turning into brute-power deathmatch instead, while there's no prospect of the class I want to play ever being fixed. It will be unusable in arenas (I've played on PTS a bit too). Which means I've cancelled and am working off some of my irritation during the remaining time on my sub.

 

Bright side for non-scrappers/conc-ops: you won't have to listen to people wailing about its uselessness much longer, because there will be literally no-one playing it.

 

No more Han Solo any more. A strange sort of Star Wars.

 

lol and since 2.0 we are even second bested in all respects in our little niche. and even shadows complain, in my mind for good reason of becoming basically useless... well done, one really fun spec in the game will be driven to extinction in pvp... and with the indicated nerf to os/xf it will become harder for those that atm manage a greats dps output in pve in probably the most complex and difficult rotation in game...well done bioware, well done

[Stavroz]

To be fair, I think it was a decent job on the questions. They're not meant to be a buff wishlist (sorcs did that, boy were they happy when they didn't get their Christmas list waved through), they're to get an idea of the devs' thinking about aspects the class.

 

And I think they probably succeeded in that aim. And the devs' thinking is that there are no great problems with Scrapper DPS or survivability; they might give a little buff to a pointless attack ability (Quick Shot); something that doesn't make sense to me because it sounded like a defensive buff we already had and vague talk about moving a defensive ability over form the OP healing tree at some future point. The general impression was that of a lack of understanding of how the class plays.

 

Which tells me that the devs' view of Scrapper is way off that of mine, and that of every experienced Scrapper or Concealment Operative I know.

 

I've been a sub since early access, and played Scrapper in PvP since 1.2, got Elite Warlord on him in November 2012 - I've played it a lot. I parse and analyse my own logs and gear (I'm a statistician in real life). I'm not the best player in the world, but I don't think there's much people can tell me about how the class plays.

 

After hanging on for months in the hope matters would improve, I now have the prospect of PvP losing the extra layers of interest that reward smart play and allow underpowered specs some room, and turning into brute-power deathmatch instead, while there's no prospect of the class I want to play ever being fixed. It will be unusable in arenas (I've played on PTS a bit too). Which means I've cancelled and am working off some of my irritation during the remaining time on my sub.

 

Bright side for non-scrappers/conc-ops: you won't have to listen to people wailing about its uselessness much longer, because there will be literally no-one playing it.

 

No more Han Solo any more. A strange sort of Star Wars.

I hear your pain but to be fair......

 

The forum fallout over the "perception problem" comment prompted almost immediate changes and significant for that matter to pyro/assault defenses. Coupled with the great changes to tactics/AP vang/pt dips is in a far better place. In fact AP/tactics is a very real viable contender in arenas.

 

And while BW ridiculous '"heal to full" comment was one of the stupidest things I and many have ever heard the real problem with sage/sorc dps is that rage/focus mara/sents are just too much to handle and there is no reason to take them over these smash monkeys.

 

The problem does not lie with the sage/sorc. The problem is that sent/Mara just has every tool to annihilate them in a group setting and just outperform them in almost every way, dmg output and survivabilty.

 

Tone them down and that problem no longer exists. The sage/sorc would need no buffs.

 

 

So while I am not holding out for a miracle I foresee slight buffs to scoundrel dps and slight nerds to Mara sents.

 

One going up and the other going down will close the gap in class v class viability.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Stavroz

[Racter]

Question 1. Scrapper (PVE / PVP):

 

Many a stealth class or specialization has struggled with the feeling of being a “Lone Wolf” in PvP in many different games over the past decade (and maybe even longer). We do not believe this has ever necessarily been each and every designer’s intention for stealth classes, but rather, a byproduct of the stealth ability itself – often times, a stealther is able to go places where his allies can only dream of going. While designers may be able to take some steps here and there to give players some tools which reduce that “Lone Wolf” feeling (see the answer to Question 2 for more on this), the greatest power for eliminating this feeling actually lies with the stealther and the stealther’s allies. There may be more we can do to alleviate these concerns, so please feel free to point us at specific skills or abilities that you feel take away from your ability to play as part of a team. We will not be removing stealth itself, but we are open to making stealthers as “team friendly” as possible (within reason, of course).

 

 

This is just blatantly false. The reason scrapper feels like a lone wolf is very obvious to anyone who has actually played the class. Any team with competent DPS can remove you from a fight with damage alone, no cc required on the tank or the healer, THROUGH GUARD WHILE GETTING HEALED, in 5s or less. in regular warzones every day I am literally killed by people before getting a third attack off. We are a lone wolf entirely because this class has to be very picky about who, when, and where we attack. The sole cause of this? It's not our mediocre burst damage, or because we're melee, and it has nothing to do with stealth at all. It's because our survivability is *********** awful. Do you remember people complaining about how squishy marauders were in beta? Then you guys gave them cheat death (actually, two cheat deaths, because back then force camo had 100% DR too if I remember correctly) and cloak of pain, so they wouldn't just pop immediately. Assassin, pre 1.6? 1.7? had exactly this same problem, and you solved it correctly, giving them 30% AOE DR and an on demand 25% DR, as well as a stacking DR talent, and DR upon exiting stealth. You also gave them increased energy regen during stealth and while their 25% on demand was active on top of already having superior energy mechanics (no brackets, set regen rate across the board). We need EXACTLY THESE THINGS. We have dodge, lasts 1/3 as long (with our set bonus) as deflection but has half the cool down and 100% avoidance instead of just increased avoidance. Fair trade, balanced. We have shield probe, absorbs pretty close to the same amount overcharge saber heals for (again, with the set bonus), shorter cool down, not quite as good, and no offensive benefit to using it. Fair trade, balanced. They have force shroud, we have nothing to compare to this. -1. They have 30% AOE DR, we do not, -1. They have 25% dr in stealth and an on demand 25% DR out of stealth, we do not, -2. We are clearly at a significant survivability deficit to our fellow stealth burst spec. They can hang in the main fight, we cannot. Moving on.

 

Shoot First/Hidden Strike does great damage because it requires you to be stealthed behind your target. If it did not require stealth, it would do considerably less damage. Our metrics assume that Shoot First/Hidden Strike is only used once per encounter, so if you are using Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen to perform additional Shoot First/Hidden Strike attacks in a single encounter, then you are probably performing above our expectations. We understand the difficulties in using a positional attack from stealth, and we do not wish to require players to use an escape mechanic to produce competitive, sustained damage. That said, we have to be careful to keep the burst damage at a reasonable level when the mechanic is used. We might consider giving Scrapper/Concealment Scoundrels/Operatives a way to use Shoot First/Hidden Strike outside of stealth, since they already have many skills that improve it, but such a drastic change to game play would be more likely to come along in an expansion pack than a balance update.

 

At launch maybe, now this is certainly no longer true. If SF/HS does not crit, it hits for only slightly more than many cc's in this game. I will continue my comparison to the only other stealth burst spec in the game, deception assassins. Spike has a 30s cd, requires stealth and does 1-1.5k dmg on non crits and 1.5-2.5k dmg on crits. It also knocks the target down for 1.5s. It also procs duplicity, which grants a free maul that does increased damage. In min/maxed partisan on my Assassin, the maul typically hits for 6-9k. On my operative in min/maxed conqueror, SF/HS hits normally for 2.5k-3.5k, and crits between 6-7.5k. Fair? Nope. Balanced? Nope. Out of control burst? Absolutely not. Assuming a maximum burst opener, with a perfect string of crits on a sorc or sage in recruit gear, I can drop a 7.5K SF/HS, 6K EP/SC, 7K BB/BS, while FR/AB ticks for 1k/s on top of that, amounting to a grand total of 23.5k damage in 3 globals. Seems pretty good right? Now consider a deception sin. 2K Spike, 10k Maul, 9K Discharge. 21k damage in three globals. Slightly worse (and for all I know, this may only be a gear difference, full 65s vs full 63s), but both have now decimated poor sorcy sorc. Scrapper/Concealment pulls ahead, but wait! Sins can do this same burst over again almost immediately without vanishing, while taking less damage, with absolutely no stealth requirement involved, on people OTHER than poor Mr. Sorcy Sorc in rags. I could see this statement being accurate if SF/HS was the one critting for 8k+ all the time, but seeing as it is not not only not doing that, but the other stealth burst class actually is, and does not have a stealth requirement or cool down on their closest equivalent, this is totally laughable. Assuming we aren't using our vanish offensively is also laughable, considering none of our abilities have a significant crit boost, and many times we are forced to vanish and reopen on random targets simply to actually damage them and not tickle.

 

The opener listed above was assuming a perfect string of crits from the Scoundrel/Operative, which is incredibly rare. Now let's play the same scenario back, assuming a no crit scenario (which is far, FAR more common). 3k SF/HS, 4K EP/SC, 3K BB/BS, in addition to 500/s from FR/AB. We have now blown all of our burst upon Mr. Sorcy Sorc, and have done a measly 10.5k. Our assassin friend comes by, hits a 1k Spike, 8k maul, 9k discharge. 18k damage in three globals. Maul train 1, Scrapper 0. However, it is worth pointing out that no one complains about deception's burst. So, in summary, what the actual **** were you thinking when you wrote this, and how could this be even remotely overpowered, considering you have another spec doing exactly what scrapper/concealment is designed to do (and would very obviously like to return to doing), and no one is throwing a tantrum over it?

 

Rotationally speaking, we could have Turn the Tables/Culling return your energy over time rather than immediately, though we are not sure all Scoundrels/Operatives would be happy with that change (especially when you are not anywhere close to full energy). That would resolve the issue with it triggering at or near full energy, but is it something that Scoundrels/Operatives would actually want? Quick Shot/Overload Shot is admittedly a poor filler ability. A scoring check reveals that, for its energy cost, it should deal more damage than it does, and we can fix that in a patch by properly rebalancing the ability. Hopefully, rebalancing Quick Shot/Overload Shot will make it into the competent filler attack that it was meant to be.

 

 

The current mechanic of returning 10 energy every time Flying Fists/Collateral Strike damages a target is acceptable and needs to remain untouched. Quick shot is literally only useful for damaging a Sin who has activated force shroud, and you are better off using flurry of bolts/rifle shot during this time to regen energy. Seeing as it costs nearly 1/5th of our energy bar and hits for somewhere in the neighborhood of 2k ( I am admittedly unsure of this, as this ability is so poor that I very, very rarely use it) you could delete it entirely and no one would complain. It would need to do double the damage it currently does for half the cost to even be worth considering over flurry of bolts/rifle shot IMO.

 

Question 2. Survivability (PVP):

Scoundrels/Operatives are meant to be shady, slippery characters that survive by escaping rather than sticking around to face the brunt of a foe’s attack. For Scoundrels/Operatives, both their ability to heal and their ability to stealth count toward their ability to survive. We do not give every single class an area-of-effect damage reduction skill because we want there to be differences and play-style variances among the classes. That is also why not every class can wear heavy armor, enter stealth mode, or heal. That is not to say that Scoundrels/Operatives will never gain access to such a skill, but they also should not expect a skill like that any time soon.

 

 

Of all answers so far, this is by a large margin the single most idiotic thing I have read. Our ability to heal, especially as scrapper, is totally laughable. Our only usable heal in combat is Underworld Medicine, which costs a 1/4 of our energy bar (guaranteed to put us in a bad spot energy wise, even if we don't have to scamper 1-3 times to get range to avoid getting interrupted/ LOS, thus being totally 100% out of energy after a single heal. This single heal (which is a 2.5 second cast, of course) heals normally in the 3k range, and crits for around 6k accounting for the trauma (general pvp heal debuff, not the marauder/sniper heal debuff) on a crit. Every single class in this game can hit for that much or more in one GCD. How on Earth could this be a survivability benefit? We generally cannot flash bang a target to throw 2 heals down (playing this spec correctly for DPS requires keeping a poison on the target for TA regrants) and even if we could, and they both crit, that is still only 12k hp once a minute (flash bang's cd). Both Mercenaries and Sorcs can drop instant heals on themselves (though the mechanics are different for the two) for the same amount in the same time frame (mercenary may be able to do it more often, not 100%). Both of these classes also primarily deal damage from 30m, while we are a MELEE class. Which brings me to point #2, how is not wanting to be smashed for 8-24k in a single GCD by a person/people NOT EVEN TARGETING YOU a play style? This is totally ridiculous. I am fine with Rage, honestly I am. The auto snares, the second root, the massive snare from force crush, the AOE pressure it offers, all fine. i disagree with the survivability boosts given to Marauders in the tree (IE lower CD on Undying Rage as well as knocking the health requirement down to a measly 1/4), but only if every melee DPS class can access 30% AOE DR. It should exist entirely to prevent ranged players from stacking on each other and to pressure tank/healer parings, not totally eliminate all other melee dps from competitive PVP. Without this talent, ignoring any other changes to survivability entirely, we will never be accepted in a competitive setting. Period.

 

As for upcoming survivability changes, we are planning to make a change to Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen (and also to Force Cloak, for any Jedi Shadows or Sith Assassins that may be reading this) so that it no longer decreases all healing received by 100%. It will still decrease all healing done by 100%, so Scoundrel/Operative healers will not be able to continue healing themselves or their allies with their heal-over-time abilities from the hidden safety of stealth mode. But this change will allow Scoundrels/Operatives to be healed by other allies immediately after using Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen, which should help to address both Scoundrel/Operative survivability in group situations and, to some extent, the “Lone Wolf” issue you mentioned in the first question.

 

 

This change will do absolutely nothing to make Scoundrel/Operative healers not clearly the best choice for arena healers, and will do absolutely nothing to boost DPS Scoundrel's survivability in PVP. This will do absolutely nothing to alleviate our survivability issues, and will do absolutely nothing to aid us in achieving success in regs, let alone competitive PVP.

 

We are concerned that Sawbones/Medicine survivability is probably a little bit too good, which means any survivability we give to Scoundrels/Operatives cannot be made available to the Sawbones/Medicine specialization. To address this, we may consider moving some Sawbones/Medicine survivability skills over to the Scrapper/Concealment and Dirty Fighting/Lethality specializations (as part of a skill trade), but we do not currently have any details to share about what these exact changes may be.

 

 

Finally a small flicker of hope from this nonsense. The dodge/evasion talent must go, and the damage reduction talent needs to either be moved to tier one or removed entirely. Still wont knock them off the top, but is definitely one step closer.

 

Question 3. Set Bonuses (PVP / PVE):

 

Like all of the other PvE set bonuses in the game, the intent behind the 4-piece Scoundrel/Operative PvE set bonus is to provide a small boost to sustained damage. It could very well be the case that the sustained damage gained by adding five energy to the Scoundrel’s/Operative’s resource pool is too small. We will look into this further, and we may at some point make a change to this particular set bonus if we find that we are not completely satisfied with its performance.

 

 

What further investigation is required? The math has been explained in both class forums many times. The set bonuses are total garbage. Point black fact. This is not even just about the PVE bonuses, the PVP set bonuses are also total crap. If our survivability wasn't complete and total ****, there would be no benefit at all to using set bonus gear as a DPS scoundrel of either spec.

 

It is interesting that so many Smugglers/Imperial Agents have taken such a liking to the 2-piece Gunslinger/Sniper PvP set bonus. Due to the DPS gain, it is understandable why this is the case, but the results of this design are unintentional. We touched a little bit on this in the Gunslinger/Sniper questions, and we can go into a bit more depth since you have specifically asked about it.

 

Because of how our ability damage is scored, XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike puts out some of the best DPS in the game – assuming all of its damage ticks hit a target – and this is without the set bonus. While we do intend for XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike to be an excellent choice against three or more enemy targets in an area, the single-target effectiveness of the ability is not intended to be so good, with a possible exception for the Saboteur/Engineering Gunslinger/Sniper. But the other five Smuggler/Imperial Agent specializations are not meant to be using the ability against a single target. To address this issue, we plan to make a few changes.

 

First, we will be lowering the effectiveness of XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike by reducing some combination of its cooldown, activation time, and energy cost. Then we will rescore the damage it does. This will allow it to be used more easily and more often, but it will deal less damage per use. We will also be swapping the 2-piece and 4-piece Gunslinger/Sniper PvP set bonuses, so that the extra tick of XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike damage will be tied to four pieces, and the increased range for Distraction and Quickdraw/Takedown will be tied to two pieces. These changes should combine to bring XS Freighter Flyby/Orbital Strike closer to its intended purpose: being a marvelous multi-target ability and a less than optimal single-target ability.

 

Yes, nerfing our moderate damage AOE ability that already costs 1/4 of our energy bar, has a ONE MINUTE cool down, and has an ENORMOUS delay while a HUGE target mark sits on the ground is clearly the correct answer to our mediocre DPS (Scrapper) and hilariously bad set bonuses (all specs). Good job.

 

What a joke. Could have just typed Reroll Deception/infiltration if you want to DPS in PVP. and saved yourselves the time and embarrassment of posting this nonsense.

[Warshades]

@Wainamoinen

 

I said - They didnt say cheaper quick shot......they said it should be doing MORE dmg for its current cost. And that they will look at rebalancing.

 

They said - "A scoring check reveals that, for its energy cost, it should deal more damage than it does"

 

and

 

"and we can fix that in a patch by properly rebalancing the ability"

 

How exactly am I wrong now? You assume it will be reducing the energy cost. I simply stated that they didnt say that....Not that it wasnt going to happen. Trust me I dont have faith that they will get it right, or that they will do anything at all to the ability. All I said...well you can read up above. If reading comprehension isnt your strong suit, I understand, just let the big boys talk and keep quiet.

 

I also said - They also stated that Scrapper was weak in defensives and was looking at pulling a defensive from the heal tree to scrapper tree.

 

They said - "To address this, we may consider moving some Sawbones/Medicine survivability skills over to the Scrapper/Concealment and Dirty Fighting/Lethality specializations (as part of a skill trade)"

 

Once again....I didnt state anything as you call....wrong? All I did was restate what you seemed to have glossed over in your reading. See, were back to that reading comprehension concept.

 

I said - So isnt that the 2 big concerns? Sustained dmg and defensives?

 

Now I ask the question because if you dont think those 2 basic concepts are what is being addressed both by the scoundrel questions and responses by Bioware then perhaps I missed the "read between the lines" point. As I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, but as a scoundrel we are good in initial burst, have some decent hitting abilities on cooldowns, and our dps drops dramatically between these abilities. This is why I mentioned the term "filler" as in abilities used between cooldowns. Giving our filler a buff is absolutely needed. I didint state what they should do, what they would do, or disagree with what you think. All I said is addressing the filler ability is the first step in balancing the class better.

 

I said - "See how the changes stack and then go from there."

 

and I meant it. Make small changes rather than sweeping changes. The class isnt nearly as bad as you might want to think. Does it need help? Absolutely. Is it the worse DPS? perhaps it ranks at the bottom 3 for Arenas. Should we expect buffs, damn straight. But lets not get carried away and go from one end of the spectrum back to the other....havent we seen enough classes do that already?

[Warshades]

I entirely don't care about sustained dps for a scoundrel, so far no scrapper has come out saying that our sustained dps is our biggest issue. What is just stupid is that Bioware (a) expects us to cast long, costly heals while performing as a melee dps and (b) has no intention of giving us better general survivability (Vanguards already have better), essentially relegating us to either being a Lone Wolf or Inner Spawn Guarder if we want to see some dps action. No competitive ranked team brought Scrappers into ranked because they are so squishy that they are a liability. Now that Scoundrel dps won't be able to occupy their time with objectives in the new arenas, the problem will only become more apparent.

 

I'd like to just add this.

 

contributing much less in prolonged fights out of stealth compared to quick in-and-out battles where Shoot First can be used effectively.

 

and

 

Scrapper also suffers from rotation concerns.

 

and

 

The sustained damage rotation can also feel clunky at times due to the lack of suitable filler attacks; Quick Shot seems like it is intended to fulfill this role, given that there are talents within each dps tree that boost its damage. However, many feel that it fails to do so. Due to its energy cost, short range, and small damage increase over Flurry Bolts

 

Firstly, I wont pretend to speak for the scoundrel community. I am merely quoting the scoundrel's opinion on their top 3 questions. And number 1 is sustained dmg. Question 2 was about Survivability and question 3 about set bonuses. All 3 very good questions....and got some decent responses. Is it what we were looking for? I dont think so. I woulda preferred more confirmed plans on balancing the class. But I also dont think they were bad responses in any way. They seemed to understand the concerns and had some ideas on what they wanted to do to fix them. Some of the ideas didnt make much sense to me like receiving heals after vanishing, since we already get that skill. It will be up to the ops now to flush out their questions to better the conversation.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Warshades

[Zunayson]

Sneak and blackout are basically the same.

 

I think that allowing Hidden strike to be used while Sneak is active will put our burst up there with shadows, with a little more sustained, but not a whole lot.

 

We'd have more burst that won't go out so quick like decep, but not too much sustained.