Please, explain it to me...

[JaborAnDubhar]

I'm curious: Why are you making class balance changes from a PvP-point-of-view? SWTOR was promoted as a "Story-based" MMO, which reads as "PvE-focussed". Changes balancing PvE and PvP would be optimal, sure, but noticing your 2.4 Assault patchnotes, as a dedicated PvE-Assault-DD, felt like getting a hit in the face...

So, why?!

What was wrong with the 1.8 and 1.9 state of Assault-balancing (true glass-cannon)?! I'm playing Vanguard-Assault since Pre-Release, I'm understanding why the 1.0-, 1.2- and 1.4-skilltrees needed to be nerfed, but the changes of 2.0 and now 2.4 are just a joke. You gave us two damage-based-trees, so is it asked too much to expect them both being viable for the high-end-content without being forced to use a hybrid-specc (and with 2.4 even these hybrids will no longer be viable...)?!

Again, why?!

 

 

P.S.: I'm German, so excuse my English, please...

Edited September 9, 2013 by JaborAnDubhar

[ekimmak]

Because if they don't, the PVP forums will be polluted by people demanding balance.

 

Sad. They buff based on PVE, and nerf based on PVP, ending up with a convoluted mess of a class balance system.

[JaborAnDubhar]

Well, the thing is, now they are nerfing AND buffing from a PvP-point-of-view. They totally blanked out PvE with their 2.4 changes. Plus, I will never forgive them cutting away the most addicting part of playing Assault: Being able to stay at 10m, just running two steps into 4m/melee range when you want to get an stockstrike onto the target, so being relativly unaffected by voids. With the (even from a fluff-based point-of-view. Come on, hitting a target burns it, but electrocuting doesn't?!) ridicolous dumb decition to place the CGC dot with stockstrike, they force us to stay in melee-range. There are many bosses (dreadguards, kephess etc.) where this will lead to a damage loss, because of lacking a gap-closer. Running to the boss and spamming Rapid Shots is no appropriate way to keep up DPS...

[Brunner_Venda]

Actually, this isn't true. They are redesigning AP and Pyro based on PVE, because they screwed things up so bad in 2.0. How? Boss parses. Hybrid specs parse higher than the full AP and full Pyro specs. TORparse doesn't lie, it's true.

 

Their answer?

 

They buffed the top of the AP tree, and nerfed a couple of lower skills like retractable blade.

 

They nerfed IM and flamethrower, while buffing the burst on TD and fixing automated defenses.

 

The result? Hybrids now parse lower on training dummies and boss fights than full 36 point specs. Gentlemen the hybrid specs parsing higher is NOT a PVP problem.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Brunner_Venda

[JaborAnDubhar]

The true result? AP is now parsing on one Level with the old hybrids. Hybrids are dead. Assault got a damage nerf, even with the "buffs".

 

And maybe the AP changes make it more viable (personally I don't think so, a melee heavy specc without a true gapcloser will not be competitive in the actual nightmare Content), but my main complains are still the changes in the assault tree. Making the aggro-reduce an deffensive-CD and healing to 35% with 30% damage reduce through adrenaline rush is nice für PvP. In PvE it means sh*t, because of assault still needing a damage buff.

Edited September 9, 2013 by JaborAnDubhar

[Brunner_Venda]

You may have one point here to consider;

 

Pyro/Assault only parses extremely well when wearing the PVP armor set for mercenaries/commandos with the 15% critical hit bonus for HIB/rail shot. With that, you can get near 45-50% critical hit for that ability and it parses almost as well as AP does (because each HIB does 6.5-7.5K).

 

So you have a point that Pyro was balanced around one PVP armor set bonus. It seems to me that Bioware needs to consider changing the PVE set bonuses for the new armor sets. If you could get a set with a 15% HIB crit bonus, the spec would parse high enough to be competitive.

 

Bioware apparently can't figure this one out, they tried to balance pyro/assault using PVE parses, but they balanced those PVE parses using a PVP set bonus.

 

And that is why they fail....

[DarthOvertone]

I'm curious: Why are you making class balance changes from a PvP-point-of-view?

 

Which of the proposed 2.4 PT class balance changes do you think are PvP-PoV? Do tell.

Edited September 9, 2013 by DarthOvertone

[JaborAnDubhar]

Vanguard

•Increased Assault Plastique explosion damage, but reduced the damage it deals over time.

 

Vanguard

Assault Specialist

•Sweltering Heat has been redesigned: While Plasma Cell is active, damage dealt by Ion Pulse has a 50/100% chance to reduce the target's movement speed by 40% for 6 seconds.

 

Trooper

General•Adrenaline Rush now triggers at 35% health and may heal up to 35% of max health (both up from 30%).

 

Vanguard

Assault Specialist

•The slow caused by the Sweltering Heat skill may now also be triggered by Explosive Surge.

•Degauss has been redesigned: Activating Diversion increases your defense chance by 12.5/25% for 6 seconds.

•In addition to its previous functionality, Adrenaline Fueled now also increases damage reduction by 15/30% while Adrenaline Rush is active.

 

 

All of them are clearly made with PvP in mind. Some may have an slightly positive impact on Assault-PvE, but these changes are not the changes Assault needed. Burst means sh*t in PvE, we are lacking more sustained damage, and 2.4 will nerf Assaults sustained damage even more.

Plus, these are most of the"buffs" Assault gets. The other changes are nerfs to the Assault tree. So 2.4 reads as "slightly better in PvP, worse in PvE".

[DarthOvertone]

All of them are clearly made with PvP in mind. Some may have an slightly positive impact on Assault-PvE, but these changes are not the changes Assault needed. Burst means sh*t in PvE, we are lacking more sustained damage, and 2.4 will nerf Assaults sustained damage even more.

Plus, these are most of the"buffs" Assault gets. The other changes are nerfs to the Assault tree. So 2.4 reads as "slightly better in PvP, worse in PvE".

 

Well, of course, the changes were made with PvP in mind. But I disagree that those changes were only PvP changes. In fact, the only change to me that is specifically PvP-oriented is the Sweltering Heat redesign.

 

The other changes were compromises that are actual boons for PvE as much as they are for PvP. There is rarely a change made by the Devs that doesn't go PvE first, then PvP.

 

I do agree with you that the other changes were nerfs. Even after these proposed changes, Assault will really fair no better in PvP than in PvE. It will continue to be mediocre in both.

[TACeMossie]

Plus, these are most of the"buffs" Assault gets. The other changes are nerfs to the Assault tree. So 2.4 reads as "slightly better in PvP, worse in PvE".

 

Wait, so making incendiary round cost the same as Ion Pulse is a massive slap-in-the-face nerf?

 

It sounds like a buff to me - you can use it more often without the fear of running out of ammo, resulting in the move being buffed. The damage reduction is quite small, and it means you don't need to spam hammer shots as often.

 

Also, Full Assault gets better dps fully geared in 2.4 compared to 2.3, so...

[oaceen]

Vanguard

•Increased Assault Plastique explosion damage, but reduced the damage it deals over time.

 

just to be clear, the overall damage was increased by about 12%

[T-Assassin]

Wait, so making incendiary round cost the same as Ion Pulse is a massive slap-in-the-face nerf?

 

It sounds like a buff to me - you can use it more often without the fear of running out of ammo, resulting in the move being buffed. The damage reduction is quite small, and it means you don't need to spam hammer shots as often.

 

Also, Full Assault gets better dps fully geared in 2.4 compared to 2.3, so...

 

my typical rotation is HS-HiB-IP-HiB-IP-IP-IP-HiB-IP-HS-IP-HiB, repeated (the red part). substitute HS for IP as RP is up. Using MV as fights necessitate, and SC on CD. I also try to burn all my ammo at the end of a boss fight.

 

If you are "spamming HS", you are probably doing something wrong.

 

I've parsed the 10m spec Jabor speaks of, and I've had my highest parses in this spec, even used to post on it back when I was more active in the community, holding the 3rd highest parse on the server, and I NEVER had BiS gear. Also, held MANY #1 parses in HM FP's and 8 #1 parses in OP's (5SM/3HM).

 

Ammo management is NOT and issue, overall DPS is (post 2.0). And IR has always been a loss in DPS when used, even >30%.

 

IP proc PC is a significant nerf for those that run this spec, and an overall nerf in general to an already significantly LACKING DPS tree.

 

 

EDIT:

1982.36 DPS @ 7m17s...in 61's (63/61/61 MH/OH, 63/61 belt/bracers)

Edited September 11, 2013 by T-Assassin

[JMagee]

my typical rotation is HS-HiB-IP-HiB-IP-IP-IP-HiB-IP-HS-IP-HiB, repeated (the red part). substitute HS for IP as RP is up. Using MV as fights necessitate, and SC on CD. I also try to burn all my ammo at the end of a boss fight.

 

If you are "spamming HS", you are probably doing something wrong.

 

I've parsed the 10m spec Jabor speaks of, and I've had my highest parses in this spec, even used to post on it back when I was more active in the community, holding the 3rd highest parse on the server, and I NEVER had BiS gear. Also, held MANY #1 parses in HM FP's and 8 #1 parses in OP's (5SM/3HM).

 

Ammo management is NOT and issue, overall DPS is (post 2.0). And IR has always been a loss in DPS when used, even >30%.

 

IP proc PC is a significant nerf for those that run this spec, and an overall nerf in general to an already significantly LACKING DPS tree.

 

 

EDIT:

 

I really enjoy when people post rotations as if they will always work that way, and if you play exactly like this, everything is ok.

 

1. If you HS doesn't proc PC, which it has a realistic chance of not doing, then your HiB isn't going to be usable. And if you say that someone else will have put a DoT on the boss at that point, then why even HS?

 

2. SS has a higher chance to proc IA. So while it may be a little bit more DPS to just push IP until IA procs, eventually bad RNG will catch up with you. Using SS on cool down to proc IA is just smart and more ammo efficient (16vs16 with 60% vs. 45% proc chance),

 

3. I'm curious what you base your argument on IR is always a DPS loss. If you're including damage/ammo in your reasoning, I agree, but if you count the entire duration of the ability, especially under 30%, I guarantee it does more damage than IP.

 

The changes are bringing some burst back to full Assault. I haven't played around with it on the PTS, but I think it will end up being a slight buff, with more damage up front. And for people who say burst doesn't mean anything in PvE..well, you're wrong.

 

Styrak, Olok droid phase, TFB, Op IX, Kephess, all have phases where burst can be a lot more useful than long DoT abilities.

 

So, put your #1HM FP parse (whatever that means...you do good damage in Taral V?) away and actually wait and see what the changes are. I did ~2560DPS on NiM Dash'Roode last week, and while it wasn't the ~3000DPS GS/Sents can put out, the boss was still dead, and we still won.

Edited September 12, 2013 by JMagee

[T-Assassin]

I really enjoy when people post rotations as if they will always work that way, and if you play exactly like this, everything is ok.

 

well, here we go...this is why I stopped posting for so long. I NEVER said it was my way or the highway...as a matter of fact, I believe I used "typical rotation" as my opener.

 

1. If you HS doesn't proc PC, which it has a realistic chance of not doing, then your HiB isn't going to be usable. And if you say that someone else will have put a DoT on the boss at that point, then why even HS?

 

why start DPS at 30m...idk, maybe to DPS?

 

2. SS has a higher chance to proc IA. So while it may be a little bit more DPS to just push IP until IA procs, eventually bad RNG will catch up with you. Using SS on cool down to proc IA is just smart and more ammo efficient (16vs16 with 60% vs. 45% proc chance),

 

I have NEVER had IP-IP-IP OR IP-HS-IP NOT proc HiB...NEVER. it's a very simple rotation, that is easily maintainable, awesome ammo management, and has proven (to me and my spec via parsing and maths) that it is higher in DPS than using SS.

 

3. I'm curious what you base your argument on IR is always a DPS loss. If you're including damage/ammo in your reasoning, I agree, but if you count the entire duration of the ability, especially under 30%, I guarantee it does more damage than IP.

 

base argument is parsing. I had posted extensively on this, even tried to look it up...most of those parses are lost.

 

The changes are bringing some burst back to full Assault. I haven't played around with it on the PTS, but I think it will end up being a slight buff, with more damage up front. And for people who say burst doesn't mean anything in PvE..well, you're wrong.

 

When did I say any of this? I could attack you for making claims based on zero working knowledge, but that's not my intention.

 

Styrak, Olok droid phase, TFB, Op IX, Kephess, all have phases where burst can be a lot more useful than long DoT abilities.

 

So, put your #1HM FP parse (whatever that means...you do good damage in Taral V?) away and actually wait and see what the changes are. I did ~2560DPS on NiM Dash'Roode last week, and while it wasn't the ~3000DPS GS/Sents can put out, the boss was still dead, and we still won.

 

you know some people just run FP's or PvP...or just OP and no PvP?

 

I have no idea why you are being such a maniac concerning my post, or even what that last paragraph is supposed to mean...

 

yeah, a good VG won't hurt the team...but, as BW has stated in the past, all DPS ~5%, is not the case...and the changes are nowhere near the place VG's need to be.

 

take it easy, psycho.

[JMagee]

you know some people just run FP's or PvP...or just OP and no PvP?

 

I have no idea why you are being such a maniac concerning my post, or even what that last paragraph is supposed to mean...

 

yeah, a good VG won't hurt the team...but, as BW has stated in the past, all DPS ~5%, is not the case...and the changes are nowhere near the place VG's need to be.

 

take it easy, psycho.

 

Well, first of all, I don't think there was any real attacking in my post, and if I came across as a "maniac" and a "psycho" well...yikes.

 

To your first counterpoint:

I am suggesting that your preferred rotation, in its current form, will not be conducive to the restructuring of PC proccing. It will be a bit incovenient for all Assault VGs to re-learn how to best manage procs, but the idea of just spamming IP ad infinitum until you get IA procs, while filling with HS when necessary sounds inefficient to me. I obviously don't have parses in a high IP spec rotation versus using SS when available, but I would not be surprised if you could get a little extra DPS out of not completely ignoring SS. I know this is contrary to your opinion, but I think we'll agree to disagree on this point.

 

To your point about IA proccing:

Assuming those are your 3 fillers in between IP(proc IA)-HiB-filler1-filler2-IP(SS) IA. You're stating that you've never had IA not proc on the first attempt, even though you only have a 45% chance of it doing so. Well, I don't believe you. To suggest you've had a 100% proc rate from IP forever is just not correct. I can't go a single fight without at least once having to cast IP/SS again outside of 6 sec for IA to proc.

 

Re: Burst statements:

Agreed, I quoted your post, but nowhere did you mention burst vs. sustained. Some of the earlier posters on this thread had mentioned that the buff to AP was useless because burst is " Burst means sh*t in PvE" as Jabor mentioned on page 1. And I was addressing those comments, with instances where a little bit more burst vs. sustained would be extremely useful.

 

I agree about the ~5% not being where it should be, and a damage buff will probably be necessary moving forward. But the problem with parses, is you have no idea of the skill behind the character. I'd be curious to see how the top parsing GS/Sent did while parsing a VG. Parse comparisons are useful, but there are always variables in parse data that cannot be sussed out 100% objectively.

[T-Assassin]

Well, first of all, I don't think there was any real attacking in my post, and if I came across as a "maniac" and a "psycho" well...yikes.

 

that's what I thought when I read it!! Yikes. It came off condescending from the start...If that was not your intention, which I am led to believe off the rest of this post...no worries.

 

To your first counterpoint:

I am suggesting that your preferred rotation, in its current form, will not be conducive to the restructuring of PC proccing. It will be a bit incovenient for all Assault VGs to re-learn how to best manage procs, but the idea of just spamming IP ad infinitum until you get IA procs, while filling with HS when necessary sounds inefficient to me. I obviously don't have parses in a high IP spec rotation versus using SS when available, but I would not be surprised if you could get a little extra DPS out of not completely ignoring SS. I know this is contrary to your opinion, but I think we'll agree to disagree on this point.

 

agree to disagree, then With the spec I run, completely ignoring SS is actually a DPS gain. I've ran literally hundreds of parses to prove this. (friends used to come into vent and ask if I wanted to PvP, I'd tell them, "After I'm done parsing". hours later, I'd be get in a group to PvP!! ) I had the 3rd best parse on my server in 61's.

 

To your point about IA proccing:

Assuming those are your 3 fillers in between IP(proc IA)-HiB-filler1-filler2-IP(SS) IA. You're stating that you've never had IA not proc on the first attempt, even though you only have a 45% chance of it doing so. Well, I don't believe you. To suggest you've had a 100% proc rate from IP forever is just not correct. I can't go a single fight without at least once having to cast IP/SS again outside of 6 sec for IA to proc.

 

NO! I'm saying I've never had IA not proc after 3rd IP. IP-IP-IP, 100% proc. IP-HS-IP, 100% proc. everytime. I've thoroughly tested this in everyday application (FP's, OP's, PvP), as well as Training dummies (see above)

 

Re: Burst statements:

Agreed, I quoted your post, but nowhere did you mention burst vs. sustained. Some of the earlier posters on this thread had mentioned that the buff to AP was useless because burst is " Burst means sh*t in PvE" as Jabor mentioned on page 1. And I was addressing those comments, with instances where a little bit more burst vs. sustained would be extremely useful.

 

werd.

 

I agree about the ~5% not being where it should be, and a damage buff will probably be necessary moving forward. But the problem with parses, is you have no idea of the skill behind the character. I'd be curious to see how the top parsing GS/Sent did while parsing a VG. Parse comparisons are useful, but there are always variables in parse data that cannot be sussed out 100% objectively.

 

EDIT: I tried digging up some old parses to show how close VG was to top performing classes, but all my logs and links from http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=567773 are gone

 

again, was ~300 DPS in 61's from top peers. which would be pretty close if I was BiS like a majority of them were.

 

Just frustrating that as a semi-serious player (I take my DPS'ing VERY seriously and always strive to be the best, even as a dirge in EQ2, was always top 5 that our DPS is SO FAR behind in SWTOR's current state.

 

not rerolling...I enjoy my VG!!

 

I mained a MM Sniper for raiding pre guild disband. I've brushed him off got him in the close mix (of what my VG has) of 69's and 66's augmented (my VG is all purple augs, sniper has 3-5 purple augs). I'm still clunky as hell on my MM...I'm getting better, and will parse it later today, to see how much closer, if not better MM is.

 

^^^ This I can read and have respectful discussion about. I truly enjoy my VG and the way it plays, and I firmly believe I excel at maximizing it...not saying i'm the BEST, I'm sure there are others that play it very well, if not better.

 

Just trying to make VG's better.

Edited September 12, 2013 by T-Assassin

[OlosBC]

I think I remember you talking about this stuff back then. Giving up SS and IR wasn't a DPS increase back then (unless you screwed up your ammo with IR).

 

In any case, whether you want to argue the past or not, in the current state of the game, it most definitely isn't a DPS increase, since the cell dot has been horribly nerfed, and the cell dot was always the thing that made IP spam sorta good.

[T-Assassin]

I think I remember you talking about this stuff back then. Giving up SS and IR wasn't a DPS increase back then (unless you screwed up your ammo with IR).

 

In any case, whether you want to argue the past or not, in the current state of the game, it most definitely isn't a DPS increase, since the cell dot has been horribly nerfed, and the cell dot was always the thing that made IP spam sorta good.

 

not trying to "argue", just merely discussing different specs and options based off of play style and in-game mechanics.

 

as to arguing the past, it won't do me any good, as all torparse info is long gone, that verified that. again, the spec I ran, according to my parsing, IP was always > SS per hit. i'm well aware of the CGC nerf, and current in-game limitations...

 

i'll just keep my info and opinions to myself.