20 bucks for a one use dye, REALLY?

[AMulls]

I'm not apologizing for anything. so please stop with that lame sauce. I am discussing the topic and pointing out that with this move they are way cheaper then before.. and yet not so cheap as to completely tank the dye economy in game.

 

IF, I wanted a B/B or a W/W dye..I'd buy them off the GTN for the greatly discounted prices that are incoming. Absolutely no reason to spend $20 or $10 for one. So stop pretending.

 

As for VALUE... VALUE and PRICE are separate things entirely in a free market. If VALUE does not meet your price.. don't buy. End of discussion. It's not like you cannot play or enjoy the game if you are not in B/B or W/W.

 

You want it and you want it at the price you want and you feel you deserve it to be so. That's an expression of entitlement.. so stop pretending otherwise.

 

Personally, I could care less about the Black/Black dye. So, no I don't want it. But I do feel that the price is wrong. It's not entitlement, it's logic. When you offer items through the CM, or for purchase with CC, then they should reflect both the value of those items in game and compare to the prices of other items. When you have an expansion pack for the game priced at less than $20, which includes 5 additional levels, a new planet, and tons of new gear; and then you have a dye pack that can only be used once on one piece of gear priced at $20, it's irrational. So my desire to want that price lowered to a more appropriate level is not entitlement, it's logic.

 

Or to go back to your Jetta analogy: you buy a Jetta for $10k. Then you go back to the dealership that sold you the Jetta to ask them for a paint job. They quote you $15K for the paint job. Are you entitled because you feel that's outrageous? Or are you just using your brain and realizing that makes no sense.

[Tatile]

There are always rare, hard to obtain items (especially appearance items) in MMOs. Dyes are often one of these.

 

Believe it or not, even in the era of freemium and microtransactions... players want things that are rare.. because they are in fact rare. If everyone has them.. they don't value them or want them.

 

Your issue is with player psychology really. The company is imply serving the psychology.

 

I don't find this to be a satisfactory answer. You seem to be saying "because it is". Is that really the reason? It's rare because it's rare because it's always been rare?

 

Also, just because I don't understand why something aesthetic need be rare, doesn't mean I'm a moron. You don't need to talk down to me like I'm a five year old.

[Andryah]

every game is different and many games have one time use dyes.

 

It creates an economy and rarity, things that communities like in mmos. If bb or ww was super common it would lose its luster. People would complain because nothing is "rare" or hard to get. Poeple complain about anything.

 

If you want a game with a free color system you are free to search elsewhere. Every game is a little different and rarity is thing (some) people crave in most mmos.

 

Does bioware know they can make money from rare dyes? Yep. They do. They are running a business and trying to pay developers to create a bigger and better game for you and of course meet the shareholder demands.

 

It is your choice to pay and play.

 

qft.

[Cernow]

I'm not apologizing for anything. so please stop with that lame sauce. I am discussing the topic and pointing out that with this move they are way cheaper then before.. and yet not so cheap as to completely tank the dye economy in game.

 

IF, I wanted a B/B or a W/W dye..I'd buy them off the GTN for the greatly discounted prices that are incoming. Absolutely no reason to spend $20 or $10 for one. So stop pretending.

 

As for VALUE... VALUE and PRICE are separate things entirely in a free market. If VALUE does not meet your price.. don't buy. End of discussion. It's not like you cannot play or enjoy the game if you are not in B/B or W/W.

 

You want it and you want it at the price you want and you feel you deserve it to be so. That's an expression of entitlement.. so stop pretending otherwise.

 

Actually I have no desire for black/black or white/white dye in game, my preferences are for other colours, none of which are in Bioware's current crayon box. But anyway ...

 

It is not entitlement to tell a company that you feel they are overcharging and don't wish to do business with them.

 

A consumer's role in a free market is not to go out into the market place to be fleeced by companies seeking to extract as much money out of them as possible. Nor is a consumer's role to demand such a cheap price that the vendor struggles to make a living. In between the two is a happy middle ground where vendor and consumer both feel good about the transaction. This is how a free market works.

[Andryah]

I don't find this to be a satisfactory answer. You seem to be saying "because it is". Is that really the reason? It's rare because it's rare because it's always been rare?

 

Also, just because I don't understand why something aesthetic need be rare, doesn't mean I'm a moron. You don't need to talk down to me like I'm a five year old.

 

As I said.. many MMO players want and expect rare and difficult to acquire.

 

Or have you been ignoring all the complaints about this MMO that things are too easy to get these days.. especially with the CM in place?

 

Believe it or not.. there ARE players that want the B/B and W/W dyes to be behind end game ops bosses as rare drops that can be bragged about having.. or sold for 10M credits on the GTN. It's a "old school" belief system which is still quite popular inside MMOs.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

A consumer's role in a free market is not to go out into the market place to be fleeced by companies seeking to extract as much money out of them as possible. Nor is a consumer's role to demand such a cheap price that the vendor struggles to make a living. In between the two is a happy middle ground where vendor and consumer both feel good about the transaction. This is how a free market works.

 

The player market forces will drive the set point prices for these dyes and everything else in game. Player market forces brought direct buy of these dyes into place. It in fact will drive the prices way down for these dyes. It's progress in fact.. due to market forces.

 

It's just not enough for some players.. and frankly.. soon will come reverse complaints that B/B and W/W have lost their "specialness". I will be pushing back on that extreme as well. as soon as it surfaces in the forum.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Tatile]

As I said: many MMO players want and expect rare and difficult to acquire.

 

Or have you been ignoring all the complaints about this MMO that things are too easy to get these days, especially with the CM in place?

 

Believe it or not, there ARE players that want the B/B and W/W dyes to be behind end game ops bosses as rare drops that can be bragged about having or sold for 10M credits on the GTN. It's a "old school" belief system which is still quite popular inside MMOs.

 

Ignoring? Can't say I've seen them. Or are you talking about the P2W people?

 

Also, that still doesn't explain why game developers have to make dyes "rare". I can understand weapon skins, armour skins, schematics thereof, even mounts, because they will be totally visually unique, but just colours? Colours that have a .5-1% drop rate?

 

If we go back to before the dye was put up for individual purchase, there was no need to have B/B and W/W be so rare in the packs, other than to perpetuate the idea that colours "should" or "need" to be rare. Why buy into that? Why not ignore that, knowing that players would set those colours higher above others anyway, due to them being coveted?

 

And yes, I am saying that "because" and "tradition" aren't good enough reasons for me, because things change.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Tatile

[AMulls]

Every game is different and many games have one time use dyes.

 

It creates an economy and rarity, things that communities like in MMOs. If BB or WW was super common it would lose its luster. People would complain because nothing is "rare" or hard to get. Poeple complain about anything.

 

If you want a game with a free color system you are free to search elsewhere. Every game is a little different and rarity is thing (some) people crave in most MMOs.

 

Does Bioware know they can make money from rare dyes? Yep. They do. They are running a business and trying to pay developers to create a bigger and better game for you and of course meet the shareholder demands.

 

It is your choice to pay and play.

 

Dyes do not create an economy in a MMO. They are merely one small sliver on the in-game economy. So, don't go on about how if they were readily available the economy would crumble. Because we both know it wouldn't.

 

And yes, it would lose it's luster if it was more readily available. That's what I've been trying to say. Unfortunately, you haven't grasped my point that that is a good thing. Dyes and colors shouldn't be the rare thing any moreso than a certain face or body type. The rare pieces should be things that can only be won/earned in game by playing it. As I said in my very first post: the speeder that drops only from a certain NiM Op, or an armor that can only be obtained through completing a quest a line. That's where the rarity should come in. Not in what color I want to make my armor.

 

Enough with the "if you don't like the way it is, then find a different game" stuff, too. Obviously we all enjoy the game or we would have left a long time ago. It's precisely because I enjoy the game so much that I am so passionate about certain factors of the game. And if we all did exactly what you suggest everytime we disagree with something Bioware does, then it would be a very lonely game for you and Andryah.

[Fantazm]

And yes, I am saying that "because" and "tradition" aren't good enough reasons for me, because things change.

 

This. A million times this.

[Arkerus]

Actually I have no desire for black/black or white/white dye in game, my preferences are for other colours, none of which are in Bioware's current crayon box. But anyway ...

 

It is not entitlement to tell a company that you feel they are overcharging and don't wish to do business with them.

 

A consumer's role in a free market is not to go out into the market place to be fleeced by companies seeking to extract as much money out of them as possible. Nor is a consumer's role to demand such a cheap price that the vendor struggles to make a living. In between the two is a happy middle ground where vendor and consumer both feel good about the transaction. This is how a free market works.

 

There are no rules about what a consumer's role is. The market is driven by supply and demand. Consumers demand things for thier daily lives. That demands drives prices up and down based on supply and consumer spending habits. In SWTOR the customer wants color packs and it is OBVIOUS they are willing to pay for them.

 

You think you are being fleeced? BLAME THE CONSUMER. If the consumer didn't buy things at these prices then Bioware wouldn't charge for at that price. Why do you think they backed off the $20 tag? They realized consumers won't pay that.

 

Talk about some middle ground and happy medium is just nonsense. Its a free moving market (unless controlled by an outside force, government, etc).

 

I think you meant well but what you said has no basis in reality.

[Arkerus]

Dyes do not create an economy in a MMO. They are merely one small sliver on the in-game economy. So, don't go on about how if they were readily available the economy would crumble. Because we both know it wouldn't.

 

And yes, it would lose it's luster if it was more readily available. That's what I've been trying to say. Unfortunately, you haven't grasped my point that that is a good thing. Dyes and colors shouldn't be the rare thing any moreso than a certain face or body type. The rare pieces should be things that can only be won/earned in game by playing it. As I said in my very first post: the speeder that drops only from a certain NiM Op, or an armor that can only be obtained through completing a quest a line. That's where the rarity should come in. Not in what color I want to make my armor.

 

Enough with the "if you don't like the way it is, then find a different game" stuff, too. Obviously we all enjoy the game or we would have left a long time ago. It's precisely because I enjoy the game so much that I am so passionate about certain factors of the game. And if we all did exactly what you suggest everytime we disagree with something Bioware does, then it would be a very lonely game for you and Andryah.

 

Its part of the economy, stop being obtuse.

 

No on said don't criticize anything. I criticize a lot of changes, especially in PvP.

 

I am talking about economics, supply and demand. Its lost on a lot of people. Bioware can charge one million dollars for a dye pack. Its up to them. If no one buys it, then it was the wrong choice.

 

I am simply saying, the price is driven by demand. You can complain all you want but if people are buying it, you aren't doing a damn thing.

 

And if you want a game with a free dye system, be a better consumer and go play it.

 

Go replace all your "should" with "I want". There are no rules about what SHOULD be. Any game can be designed in any way. There is no "should". There are only things you WANT to see.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Arkerus

[CosmicKat]

Dyes do not create an economy in a MMO. They are merely one small sliver on the in-game economy. So, don't go on about how if they were readily available the economy would crumble. Because we both know it wouldn't.

 

And yes, it would lose it's luster if it was more readily available. That's what I've been trying to say. Unfortunately, you haven't grasped my point that that is a good thing. Dyes and colors shouldn't be the rare thing any moreso than a certain face or body type. The rare pieces should be things that can only be won/earned in game by playing it. As I said in my very first post: the speeder that drops only from a certain NiM Op, or an armor that can only be obtained through completing a quest a line. That's where the rarity should come in. Not in what color I want to make my armor.

 

Enough with the "if you don't like the way it is, then find a different game" stuff, too. Obviously we all enjoy the game or we would have left a long time ago. It's precisely because I enjoy the game so much that I am so passionate about certain factors of the game. And if we all did exactly what you suggest everytime we disagree with something Bioware does, then it would be a very lonely game for you and Andryah.

 

Well said.

[AMulls]

The player market forces will drive the set point prices for these dyes and everything else in game. Player market forces brought direct buy of these dyes into place. It in fact will drive the prices way down for these dyes. It's progress in fact.. due to market forces.

 

It's just not enough for some players.. and frankly.. soon will come reverse complaints that B/B and W/W have lost their "specialness". I will be pushing back on that extreme as well. as soon as it surfaces in the forum.

 

It's more complicated than that and you know it. Player market forces only indirectly brought direct buy of these dyes into place. I'd wager probably because sales of the dye packs dropped significantly. That's why Bioware finally "listened" and added these dyes to the direct market place. But at the price point they are offered, there is an artificial bottom set for the in game market as a result. Even if the market was flooded with them (which should cause the price to be reduced), there is a certain level at which the prices will remain because of the real life dollars behind the items.

[Arkerus]

It's more complicated than that and you know it. Player market forces only indirectly brought direct buy of these dyes into place. I'd wager probably because sales of the dye packs dropped significantly. That's why Bioware finally "listened" and added these dyes to the direct market place. But at the price point they are offered, there is an artificial bottom set for the in game market as a result. Even if the market was flooded with them (which should cause the price to be reduced), there is a certain level at which the prices will remain because of the real life dollars behind the items.

 

That's still a market system and what you described is working exactly as intended. You didn't prove anything. There is no artificial bottom but I assume we will see a steady lower $$ amount in game. That is your "artificial" bottom price.

[Ayelinna]

As I said.. many MMO players want and expect rare and difficult to acquire.

 

Or have you been ignoring all the complaints about this MMO that things are too easy to get these days.. especially with the CM in place?

 

Believe it or not.. there ARE players that want the B/B and W/W dyes to be behind end game ops bosses as rare drops that can be bragged about having.. or sold for 10M credits on the GTN. It's a "old school" belief system which is still quite popular inside MMOs.

 

Would you mind answering these simple questions?

 

1. Do you think $20 for a single use dye is over priced?

 

2. Do you okay Bioware putting a 2000cc price tag on a single use dye?

 

Please refrain from using phrases such as "dont like it, dont play it" "it's optional" "no ones forcing you to buy it" etc... I'd just like to hear your own opinion on the price

[AMulls]

Its part of the economy, stop being obtuse.

 

No on said don't criticize anything. I criticize a lot of changes, especially in PvP.

 

I am talking about economics, supply and demand. Its lost on a lot of people. Bioware can charge one million dollars for a dye pack. Its up to them. If no one buys it, then it was the wrong choice.

 

I am simply saying, the price is driven by demand. You can complain all you want but if people are buying it, you aren't doing a damn thing.

 

And if you want a game with a free dye system, be a better consumer and go play it.

 

Go replace all your "should" with "I want". There are no rules about what SHOULD be. Any game can be designed in any way. There is no "should". There are only things you WANT to see.

 

I fully admitted that it's part of the economy, just a very small part. And I don't think obtuse means what you think it means.

 

But, fine, how's this: I want dyes to be readily available and not be the "rare thing" that everyone craves. I want the "rare things" to be obtained in game through playing and succeeding. I want to be rewarded for playing the game and excelling and completing certain milestones. And I want Bioware to be consistent in its pricing on the CM, so that an expansion is not less money than a color dye. Or is that me feeling entitled again?

[Ayelinna]

Just how much more condescending can you get? All of your ramblings are nothing more than a show of an elitist attitude that you are right and everyone who disagrees with your nonsense is wrong.

 

QFT

Edited September 6, 2013 by Ayelinna

[CosmicKat]

I fully admitted that it's part of the economy, just a very small part. And I don't think obtuse means what you think it means.

 

But, fine, how's this: I want dyes to be readily available and not be the "rare thing" that everyone craves. I want the "rare things" to be obtained in game through playing and succeeding. I want to be rewarded for playing the game and excelling and completing certain milestones. And I want Bioware to be consistent in its pricing on the CM, so that an expansion is not less money than a color dye. Or is that me feeling entitled again?

 

You are a dinosaur that doesn't understand the concepts of failed MMO's and are instead trying to juxtapose the design decisions made by successful MMO's. If you had your way these MMO's would not have failed in the first place and then where would we be? We'd have everything we have now provided as part of the subscription, that's where!

 

Current MMO design philosophy consists of taking a console game, setting the difficulty level to "handi-capable primate", then allowing the customer to pay extra to avoid having to play it.

 

Sarcasm aside, I agree totally with your post, as I am a dinosaur too.

[hadoken]

You are a dinosaur that doesn't understand the concepts of failed MMO's and are instead trying to juxtapose the design decisions made by successful MMO's. If you had your way these MMO's would not have failed in the first place and then where would we be? We'd have everything we have now provided as part of the subscription, that's where!

 

Current MMO design philosophy consists of taking a console game, setting the difficulty level to "handi-capable primate", then allowing the customer to pay extra to avoid having to play it.

 

Sarcasm aside, I agree totally with your post, as I am a dinosaur too.

 

Everytime you bring this point up (games fail cause they're not hard) I can't help but wonder if you thought WOW was a difficult to play game.

 

It would certainly explain a lot if you did.

[Ayelinna]

an unhealthy obsession

What like you posting over 500 posts withing 18 days?

 

Oh I get your point, but I disagree with it. And I do so in calm, measured reason

By telling people they're having a temper tantrum....how very calm and reasonable

You can go back to your temper tantrum now if you like.

You should stop contradicting yourself

Stop with the irony my friend.

And a protip for you: nothing in the CM is required to play and enjoy the game..

Wow, haven't heard that one before!

unless you have unhealthy obsessions for faux items inside a virtual game.

Like you do with this forum?

 

I can do this for as long as you like, and never get impatient or angry about it

So basically you're a Biodrone then?

 

I am simply pointing out that this is actually a good move

Doesnt mean you can force your opinion onto others by writing walls and walls of words in a passive aggressive manner

I am not in the minority view on this.

 

Yes you are

[DOHboy]

Would you mind answering these simple questions?

 

1. Do you think $20 for a single use dye is over priced?

 

2. Do you okay Bioware putting a 2000cc price tag on a single use dye?

 

Please refrain from using phrases such as "dont like it, dont play it" "it's optional" "no ones forcing you to buy it" etc... I'd just like to hear your own opinion on the price

 

1) No, Dye is meant to be rare and hard to get, ability to purchase single does not mean it is not meant to still be valuable/rare/hard to acquire.

2) See 1

 

Had they put the Varactyl mount or Aggressor speeder on GM for $50 I probably would have still purchased it. Cheaper than the 5 hypercrates and only gotten the Speeder but no Mount.

 

If I wanted a dye kit, I'd pay the money, buy off the GTN, or take my chances on the dye packs. It is wroth $20 to NOT have everyone running around with emo cloths at which point its not "you got a rare item" its "ohhh you got $20...good for you <rolls eyes>"

[Kurgun]

I'm not apologizing for anything. so please stop with that lame sauce. I am discussing the topic and pointing out that with this move they are way cheaper then before.. and yet not so cheap as to completely tank the dye economy in game.

 

IF, I wanted a B/B or a W/W dye..I'd buy them off the GTN for the greatly discounted prices that are incoming. Absolutely no reason to spend $20 or $10 for one. So stop pretending.

 

As for VALUE... VALUE and PRICE are separate things entirely in a free market. If VALUE does not meet your price.. don't buy. End of discussion. It's not like you cannot play or enjoy the game if you are not in B/B or W/W.

 

You want it and you want it at the price you want and you feel you deserve it to be so. That's an expression of entitlement.. so stop pretending otherwise.

 

As stated before, your argument is just pure rubbish. You are trying to equate real life money to the economy in the game. It does not work. Bioware created artificial comparison and you are going right along with it and trying to convince everyone that your opinion on it is correct.

 

Your strongest argument to our complaints is for us to not buy the dye if we don't like the price then tell us "end of discussion" as if your opinion trumps all. It does not. It is a stupid argument for you to sit there and tell us we don't need these dyes to play the game. While that may be true it does NOT tell the whole story does it? We as players put appearance of our characters very high on our list of options we want available to us. If appearance didn't matter to gamers then why do we constantly crave knew armor models or new colors, or any other cosmetic feature?

 

I have yet to see you explain why a one time use dye should cost more than an expansion full of content, other than you think black and white are rare colors. In Star Wars and in reality they ARE NOT RARE. You are nothing more than a fanboy of bioware and EA. If you were smart you'd realize this is a bad precedent for them to be setting, instead of defending them.

[Vinak]

The original dye system was anti-consumer in the first place and both the players and EA know it. This is why it ultimately failed. Nobody likes spending 200cc for 2 random primary/secondary dye kits that will most likely look terrible and sell for less than 10-20k credits on the GTN. Not when you can buy a similarly priced item, say a 160cc cartel pack and sell it for roughly 200k depending on your server. The chances of getting something worthwhile from a 200cc kit are just too small.

 

Now if they actually implemented a system that allowed us to pick our own primary, secondary, and tertiary colors, people would most likely be willing to buy those - provided the color palette was appealing, and you could possibly buy the colors directly, or just got more than 2 random colors from cartel market.

 

In my opinion, they should just add all the colors to the cartel market directly, and allow us to add them to collections. Charge anywhere from 500cc to 1.2k and standard rates to unlock them legacy wide. Separating Primary and secondary dye slots would be wonderful too.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Vinak

[Kurgun]

Character appearance is very important to me personally. And I have very much enjoyed the extra flexibility that the dye system has added to this. At the same time... I am able to achieve the looks I desire without needing to go monochromatic OR Crayola. Either extreme is absurd to me.. but I accept that other players have different tastes.

 

But the point remains.. you have many appearance choices in this game that get very close to monochromatic at a fraction of the cost represented by these two dyes that so many people obsess over. so appearance is not being denied to anyone, except for brand new players who lack in game capital to dress and color their gear.

 

It's the obsessive compulsive nature that is driving the rage here IMO. People want what they want, and they do not want to feel like they have to pay anything of any significance for it (either real money, in game credits, or time to get in game credits).

 

What makes you think we should settle for something less than what we want available? That is absurd and is a weak *** "point" you try to make. Why are you even on this crusade to defend them when you have clearly stated you don't care for either of these dyes? Does this give you some sort of ego boost by pretending to be some higher form of intelligence?

 

"The point remains" that YOUR OPINION is not the opinion of the majority of players. So stop deluding yourself into thinking yours is the only correct one.

[hadoken]

"The point remains" that YOUR OPINION is not the opinion of the majority of players. So stop deluding yourself into thinking yours is the only correct one.

 

That is going to depend entirely on how well this sells. You really can't make that claim.