Confusing double-talk from the Cantina tour

[Sir-Coffee]

Oh come on. If you think that represents rage the threshold for that judgement from you must not be very high. Nor does that post indicate that I didn't see the complaints posted...it indicates it does not likely represent a majority.

 

Guess what? That is probably an accurate assessment. It is probably exaggeration to point out it is a majority...in fact in most cases it would be an exaggeration at best for ANY subject on the forums.

 

We are not really privy, as a general rule, to the information required to establish a majority opinion on anything.

 

Attacking the OP without looking up the facts is a rage post.

[LordArtemis]

Attacking the OP without looking up the facts is a rage post.

 

Attacking a post presenting common sense without considering the points made is a silly post that lacks wisdom or self respect.

 

By the way....you do not determine the "facts" in this case. Not by a long shot.

Edited September 3, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Sir-Coffee]

Attacking a post presenting common sense without considering the points made is a silly post that lacks wisdom or self respect.

 

]I would really like to know how you could have come up with such a ridiculous and baseless assumption.[/u] There is in no conclusive way ANY proof that anything discussed here pertaining to player concerns over a lack of balance before Arena launch represents a majority.

PTS, in game, PvP forums/PoT5 Facebook Page. I would say that the majority of PvPers are upset.

Any claim to the contrary is absolutely ludicrous. I would say more evidence exists, if you consider players compared to posters OR percentage of folks posting concerns compared to forum members that do not that the majority have little to no concern about it at all.

 

I'd also like to know who exactly is this "we" that you keep mentioning....because I'm almost positive you were not elected as a spokesman for anyone. Certainly not me or anyone I know.

"We" as in the majority of PvPers. It's okay that you aren't a PvPer but please stop acting rude.

 

You obviously haven't payed attention to the forums or general chat in game(Unless you play on a PvE/RP server, then that could explain why you are so rude)

 

Also, common sense? BioWare made changes to the PT class due to feedback on the forums. Even if that happened to be the minority, they still got their point through to the Developers because they REPRESENT the majority of Powertechs. We represent the majority of PvPers and address our concerns accordingly.

[LordArtemis]

"We" as in the majority of PvPers. It's okay that you aren't a PvPer but please stop acting rude.

 

You obviously haven't payed attention to the forums or general chat in game(Unless you play on a PvE/RP server, then that could explain why you are so rude)

 

Also, common sense? BioWare made changes to the PT class due to feedback on the forums. Even if that happened to be the minority, they still got their point through to the Developers because they REPRESENT the majority of Powertechs. We represent the majority of PvPers and address our concerns accordingly.

 

Shenanigans.

 

You can tell me a rock is a pillow all day if you want. It's still a rock.

Edited September 3, 2013 by LordArtemis

[AlrikFassbauer]

Are you still argueing over words ? After this "perception problem" "showcase" how ingorant the PvP-oriented class team is ?

 

There won't be ANY changes. Just stop discussing.

[Ratajack]

Attacking a post presenting common sense without considering the points made is a silly post that lacks wisdom or self respect.

 

By the way....you do not determine the "facts" in this case. Not by a long shot.

 

How dare you bring rational logic into the forums.

 

Thee OP and those of like mind will continue to complain and ignore the facts that do not mesh with their desires.

 

My biggest fear, and I think you share that fear, is that BW will not separate class balance into PVP balance and PVE balance. I fear that the same thing will happen to this game that happened in others that implemented arenas. Class balance will forever be borked based solely on PVP whiners, er. I mean concerns.

[Andryah]

My biggest fear, and I think you share that fear, is that BW will not separate class balance into PVP balance and PVE balance. I fear that the same thing will happen to this game that happened in others that implemented arenas. Class balance will forever be borked based solely on PVP whiners, er. I mean concerns.

 

Valid concern IMO.

[LordArtemis]

How dare you bring rational logic into the forums.

 

Thee OP and those of like mind will continue to complain and ignore the facts that do not mesh with their desires.

 

My biggest fear, and I think you share that fear, is that BW will not separate class balance into PVP balance and PVE balance. I fear that the same thing will happen to this game that happened in others that implemented arenas. Class balance will forever be borked based solely on PVP whiners, er. I mean concerns.

 

Lol. Yea. In the wind, as it were.

 

I have that fear, but I also think that the PVP community has been ignored and taken for granted for far too long and they deserve some attention. I also think that many of their concerns are justified, though perhaps not as dire as many seem to present it.

 

It's pretty common for certain types of players to represent themselves and their opinions as majority opinions, even within their own play style, without realizing the folly of doing so....I think that might come from a habit to exaggerate and generalize in real life.

 

I will say that a forum member mentioned that Bioware indicated at one of the Canteena meetings that they were aware of Blizzards mistakes with centering balance around Arena and do not intend to make the same mistakes. Not sure if that is accurate, but it is good news if it is.

 

It might explain the delay.

Edited September 3, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Sir-Coffee]

How dare you bring rational logic into the forums.

 

Thee OP and those of like mind will continue to complain and ignore the facts that do not mesh with their desires.

 

My biggest fear, and I think you share that fear, is that BW will not separate class balance into PVP balance and PVE balance. I fear that the same thing will happen to this game that happened in others that implemented arenas. Class balance will forever be borked based solely on PVP whiners, er. I mean concerns.

 

You're not even a PvPer, which means your points are biased. Although, I do agree with that underlined statement. PvP whiners? PvErs are whiners also, they just aren't as vocal.

Edited September 3, 2013 by SithEBM

[LordArtemis]

You're not even a PvPer, which means your points are biased. Although, I do agree with that underlined statement. PvP whiners? PvErs are whiners also, they just aren't as vocal.

 

I agree that complaining is not something that either playstyle has as an exclusive. I see plenty of complaints from both sides of the fence.

[ThePedigree]

Excellent. You understand the analogy then.. it's just that you think you are special and the analogy is not applicable in your case. And.. to make a point here.. I said 2:00 AM, not 3:00 AM... which leads me to believe you apply selective comprehension to topical discussion.

You're splitting hairs. I in error changed a number by one digit in your grossly inaccurate analogy about the amount of heat these topics have on the forums. My bad.

 

 

Actually.. being more transparent and listening to players means "some" things that players want or express will be made a reality. By no means does it mean every wild piece of spittle that flies out and hits a monitor screen is converted into the top 10 things the devs must work on immediately. Double-talk is people like yourself pretending and prognosticating that because you say it.. the devs must do it and do it nao.

You are absolutely correct in that the devs should not listen to every wild suggestion on the forums. But the topics at hand are these specific pvp concerns that have gained considerable input/feedback/discussion/complaints from the various forums. And when the devs say this:

if we expose our philosophy, you guys will tell us if we’ve f*cked up. Right?

when the players are already doing so, it seems like double-talk.

 

Case in point: There have been numerous and often ranty questions about why no balance of class play in PvP ahead of arenas. AND... wait for it.. wait for it.. they answered the question.. clearly and unambiguously. You just don't like the answer and when you don't like an answer I guess you need to label it with negative pejoratives to make yourself feel better in some way. Or perhaps it's just how you personally lash out at people and things. /shrug.

Me not liking the answer is quite the point. I think its a bad call. The point of my thread was to point out that there are many people that agree with that opinion who have already expressed it long before I did, which seems to be at odds with what the devs have just stated. You might disagree. Fair enough. But don't' try to label what I've done as my personal crusade to make myself out to be representative of everyone here. I never stated that, and any time I've referred to "we" it's been to the many, many players who have been posting about these issues for the last month. It has not been meant to include everyone. There are many people who don't even have the ability to post here on the forums that could weigh in for or against these issues, but cannot. I am merely pointing out the confusing stance the devs seem to be expressing when there seems to be an very large negative reaction to these issues, which seems to be in contention with their previous points about the "vocal minority" of the forum go'ers. If we're the vocal minority, then why would the care if we'll tell them when they've screwed up?

[Sir-Coffee]

I agree that complaining is not something that either playstyle has as an exclusive. I see plenty of complaints from both sides of the fence.

 

Thank you, it is ridiculous how some people can be so close-minded that they can actually make themselves believe PvErs don't "Whine".

 

Most gamers are complainers (Which can be a good and bad thing).

[ThePedigree]

Valid concern IMO.

 

I also agree that this is a valid concern. This was an issue that was touched on several times when these issues sprang to light. People have linked the interview with WoW devs stating how Arenas were a nightmare to handle, and one of the leading issues was their refusal to separate pvp and pve rules, and the implications it had on the game as a whole.

Edited September 3, 2013 by ThePedigree

[Ratajack]

You're not even a PvPer, which means your points are biased. Although, I do agree with that underlined statement. PvP whiners? PvErs are whiners also, they just aren't as vocal.

 

I am not a hardcore PVP'er, true. Nowhere did I even mention that PVE'ers do not complain or whine. If I were a hordcore PVP'er, I could just as easily have said that I do not want my PVP balance borked due to PVE'ers whining.

 

I am all for PVP balance, just not at the cost of PVE. The opposite is also true. PVE balance should not come at the cost of PVP balance.

 

The two should be separated.

[Ratajack]

Lol. Yea. In the wind, as it were.

 

I have that fear, but I also think that the PVP community has been ignored and taken for granted for far too long and they deserve some attention. I also think that many of their concerns are justified, though perhaps not as dire as many seem to present it.

 

It's pretty common for certain types of players to represent themselves and their opinions as majority opinions, even within their own play style, without realizing the folly of doing so....I think that might come from a habit to exaggerate and generalize in real life.

 

I will say that a forum member mentioned that Bioware indicated at one of the Canteena meetings that they were aware of Blizzards mistakes with centering balance around Arena and do not intend to make the same mistakes. Not sure if that is accurate, but it is good news if it is.

 

It might explain the delay.

 

 

As I said before, I am all for PVP balance.

 

I just hope that BW actually has the stones to separate PVP and PVE and balance each separately.

[LordArtemis]

Thank you, it is ridiculous how some people can be so close-minded that they can actually make themselves believe PvErs don't "Whine".

 

Most gamers are complainers (Which can be a good and bad thing).

 

Well, I believe that if folks on the PVP side keep the "feet to the fire", so to speak, things will happen.

 

I understand it may not be happening fast enough...to my knowledge only two balance passes have been made since the game's launch. That is probably not enough. But by the same token having WoW's balance pace would also not be wise IMO...especially if it was driven by PVP complaints.

 

I would guess that most folks are aware that balance is tough to reach when both PVE and PVP use the same rule set. Blizzard learned to change how talents work in PVP and disable certain others, as well as have talents specifically designed for PVE or PVP use. This is a really good compromise IMO.

 

PVP should not have to suffer for the sake of PVE, or visa versa. It is my hope they consider the entire game when doing a balance pass, and perhaps find ways to implement a different rule set for each play style. That will make it far easier to balance IMO.

[pauljc]

I'd also like to know who exactly is this "we" that you keep mentioning....because I'm almost positive you were not elected as a spokesman for anyone. Certainly not me or anyone I know.

 

"WE" is the first person plural pronoun, used to signify the speaker plus at least one (1) other person. It doesn't require power of attorney. Now, if you take a casual glimpse of the PvP forum from a passing train, you can see that there are many who share the OPs concerns. If you can't see that, you should get yourself up-to-date on the debate you're injecting yourself into.

 

Here's a protip for everyone inclined to disagree with the OP: If you spend 2 and a half pages pretending to be a pedantic copy editor, people are going to start thinking you don't really have a serious substantive argument to make.

[Sir-Coffee]

I am not a hardcore PVP'er, true. Nowhere did I even mention that PVE'ers do not complain or whine. If I were a hordcore PVP'er, I could just as easily have said that I do not want my PVP balance borked due to PVE'ers whining.

 

I am all for PVP balance, just not at the cost of PVE. The opposite is also true. PVE balance should not come at the cost of PVP balance.

 

The two should be separated.

 

How dare you bring rational logic into the forums.

 

Thee OP and those of like mind will continue to complain and ignore the facts that do not mesh with their desires.

 

My biggest fear, and I think you share that fear, is that BW will not separate class balance into PVP balance and PVE balance. I fear that the same thing will happen to this game that happened in others that implemented arenas. Class balance will forever be borked based solely on PVP whiners, er. I mean concerns.

 

What were you trying to say again?

[hadoken]

Here's a protip for everyone inclined to disagree with the OP: If you spend 2 and a half pages pretending to be a pedantic copy editor, people are going to start thinking you don't really have a serious substantive argument to make.

 

While I don't disagree with that statement, I do think voicing your opinion as coming from some sort of moral majority instead of...just your opinion, is not really any better

 

And that's something I see all the time, certainly not unique to this thread or argument (which I actually agree with anyway).

[LordArtemis]

"WE" is the first person plural pronoun, used to signify the speaker plus at least one (1) other person. It doesn't require power of attorney. Now, if you take a casual glimpse of the PvP forum from a passing train, you can see that there are many who share the OPs concerns. If you can't see that, you should get yourself up-to-date on the debate you're injecting yourself into.

 

Here's a protip for everyone inclined to disagree with the OP: If you spend 2 and a half pages pretending to be a pedantic copy editor, people are going to start thinking you don't really have a serious substantive argument to make.

 

I assume you hold some opinions that match mine. I will not, however, assume to have the right to speak for you.

 

Perhaps you should bring yourself up to date on the concept of self expression and ownership of one's opinion. Taking up the mantle, so to speak, is a bit assumptive on any topic, isn't it? Even if, at a glance, it seems folks may agree with you....are they incapable of speaking up to that fact?

 

Here's a protip for you if you wish to offer advice. If you spend a few moments to consider the wisdom of a point that you may be determined to stand against for the sake of principal, you may find that people will take your advice more seriously.

 

The argument was against speaking for others. It was not against the points made in the post. Therefore the argument is sound.

Edited September 3, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Andryah]

While I don't disagree with that statement, I do think voicing your opinion as coming from some sort of moral majority instead of...just your opinion, is not really any better

 

And that's something I see all the time, certainly not unique to this thread or argument (which I actually agree with anyway).

 

Exactly.

 

There are PvP balance issues, and other PvP considerations that need attention and over time will receive attention I'm sure (though not always the way any given player wants/prefers).

 

Make a good sound case, and gain support around the case. NOT surround yourself with "we" and attempt to speak for anyone but yourself. If what you speak for yourself has merit.. it gains support... lots of merit.. lots of support. Pretending to speak for the community and declare a majority is snake-oil in gaming forums.

 

PvP players generally are very passionate and demanding. They are also very fractional and fight among themselves. They use the Devs as a target to unite against and that is always counter-productive IMO.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Andryah

[Vis-Tecum]

I understand it may not be happening fast enough...to my knowledge only two balance passes have been made since the game's launch. That is probably not enough. But by the same token having WoW's balance pace would also not be wise IMO...especially if it was driven by PVP complaints.

.

 

so let me get this straight you only consider balancing as huge revamps where classes have their skill trees reset and skill points refunded?

 

because that seems like a ridiculous statement they constantly are working with the classes and applying small tweaks to skills and classes where needed. not just twice

 

and as for everybody complaining that they are doing nothing for balance before 2.4, then why are there changes to the PT on the pts?

 

sure not every sorc whiner is getting pandered too and they aren't going to make the sorcs overpowered more then they are just to appease immature troll tactics by anselem and the rest of the whiny sorcs,

 

so why wouldn't they wait and see how classes are performing in arenas which are a different game all together then warzones, do you really want them messing with classes over a small population sample on the pts over just a few weeks?

 

personally I think they mess with classes to much and the only real balancing they need to do is nerf the hell out of dps snipers and op healers but I am fine with them being the op fotm I have seen plenty since launch, and remember when pt dps was a face roll easy rotation and ridiculous dps for pvp and pve, glad they fixed that

Edited September 3, 2013 by Vis-Tecum

[Ratajack]

What were you trying to say again?

 

 

Thank you for pointing out in very large and bold text that NOWHERE did i say that PVE'ers do not whine.

[Sir-Coffee]

Thank you for pointing out in very large and bold text that NOWHERE did i say that PVE'ers do not whine.

 

How dare you bring rational logic into the forums.

 

Thee OP and those of like mind will continue to complain and ignore the facts that do not mesh with their desires.

 

My biggest fear, and I think you share that fear, is that BW will not separate class balance into PVP balance and PVE balance. I fear that the same thing will happen to this game that happened in others that implemented arenas. Class balance will forever be borked based solely on PVP whiners, er. I mean concerns.

 

Pay close attention to the words I bolded/underlined.

[TUXs]

My biggest fear, and I think you share that fear, is that BW will not separate class balance into PVP balance and PVE balance. I fear that the same thing will happen to this game that happened in others that implemented arenas. Class balance will forever be borked based solely on PVP whiners, er. I mean concerns.

Yeah, we've heard this drivel before...

 

Please name ONE rational request that a "PvP" player is asking for, for their class, that would negatively impact the "PvE" aspect of that class. I doubt you can...know why? Because both PvP and PvE have the same complaints from what I've seen - lack of DPS, resource management issues, survivability, cast times.

 

Hell, I'd actually argue that the majority of the "balance" tweaking that has gone on in this game is because of PvE, not PvP.

- Med packs being limited to one use PER fight = PvE

- Commando interrupt = PvE

- Combat rez timer = PvE

- In combat rez for Commando = PvE