Why Smash Should Not be Nerfed

[mfourcustom]

^

Somebody sounds sore that Pyro got nerfed while it was FOTM, and Smash takes so long to be brought down. Tested AP on the PTR. It. Is. AWESOME.

 

Sore? Ya a little bit seeing as how the pyro spec before 2.0 was pretty well balanced if you think about ( of course i'm talking after our range nerf).

 

Our class was a true melee glass cannon forced in to melee range with our range nerf which was in pretty much every vanguards opinion a well deserved nerf but did we have great burst? yes good at anything else??? No.

 

To be honest When we got nerfed I don't think we were FOTM classes lol Our time as FOTM class had ended a while after our range was nerfed in 1.7ish i think it was?

 

Anyway we got nerfed because at times we could stand toe to toe with snipers/jugs/mara's so on and so forth.

 

These Devs play favorites and I was just trying to point out that elite's playing one of the devs favorite specs and classes so hes got nothing to worry about He can keep smashing until the end of this game which will probably be some time around ESO and wildstar launch.

[iheartnyc]

Uh you also lost to Exilove's VG/Sent/Shadow/Commando team or are you talking about a different run here? +1 to Exilove for shadow goodness.

 

Not to derail this don't nerf me bro thread of course.

 

That wasn't our "team."

 

Ogi'bear, Bobcow, Myself and Stavros/Zimmo is the team that had a record of something like 55-2 before we got bored and we ran a bunch of experimental comps and pugs where we lost a whole bunch of games.

 

As you can see, we tried 3 smash and it backfired on us.

Edited September 3, 2013 by iheartnyc

[Evolixe]

Undying rage doesnt need removed, its easily stunned through and countered.

The smash tree talent that reduces the hp percentage needs to be thrown off a very large building tho why they buffed that i will NEVER know. Also the ridiculously low cd on rage tree with set bonus

 

The argument of something being fine because there is a chance that it might be countered is so stupidly flawed I don't even know where to start on telling you how dumb that post was.

 

The point of undying is to give you 4 more seconds to live without having to worry about getting killed. At all.

Once you lived through those 4 seconds undying has done it's job, what comes after that hasn't got anything to do with the ability.

 

The problem is that you can take FULL healing while being literally invincible. Those 4 seconds of you and your healer not having to worry about dying is stupidly OP.

[Helig]

Sore? Ya a little bit seeing as how the pyro spec before 2.0 was pretty well balanced if you think about ( of course i'm talking after our range nerf).

 

Our class was a true melee glass cannon forced in to melee range with our range nerf which was in pretty much every vanguards opinion a well deserved nerf but did we have great burst? yes good at anything else??? No.

 

To be honest When we got nerfed I don't think we were FOTM classes lol Our time as FOTM class had ended a while after our range was nerfed in 1.7ish i think it was?

 

Anyway we got nerfed because at times we could stand toe to toe with snipers/jugs/mara's so on and so forth.

 

These Devs play favorites and I was just trying to point out that elite's playing one of the devs favorite specs and classes so hes got nothing to worry about He can keep smashing until the end of this game which will probably be some time around ESO and wildstar launch.

Wow, you've got some twisted tunnel-vision going on. Take a break. I'm dead serious. It's not healthy.

[mfourcustom]

Wow, you've got some twisted tunnel-vision going on. Take a break. I'm dead serious. It's not healthy.

 

Well I do have a perception problem

 

Lets just delete all melee classes that cant spec in to smash so uncle Austin has all of our backs.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Regardless, it really shouldn't matter. Balancing for low level PvP turned out to be a mistake that--in my opinion--was never rectified.

 

I agree to that.

 

And - to make matters worse - no-one of the "Pro's" is ever interested in seeing that being worked on.

 

ALL discussions here are ENTIRELY focused on Ranked. The skills, the spects, the trees, everything.

 

Not a single word about low-level - PvP.

 

Because everyone brings their mental firewall down when the words "low-level PvP" are mentioned somewhere.

 

These Devs play favorites and I was just trying to point out that elite's playing one of the devs favorite specs and classes so hes got nothing to worry about

 

Plus, they probably exclusively Ranked or at least End-Level - PvP, too.

 

Very cynical point of view, and the recent impolite answers just strengthen this impression ("Perception problem", for example).

Edited September 3, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[mfourcustom]

I agree to that.

 

And - to make matters worse - no-one of the "Pro's" is ever interested in seeing that being worked on.

 

ALL discussions here are ENTIRELY focused on Ranked. The skills, the spects, the trees, everything.

 

Not a single word about low-level - PvP.

 

Because everyone brings their mental firewall down when the words "low-level PvP" are mentioned somewhere.

 

 

 

Plus, they probably exclusively Ranked or at least End-Level - PvP, too.

 

Very cynical point of view, and the recent impolite answers just strengthen this impression ("Perception problem", for example).

 

Whats that i cant hear you?? My rerolling a smasher to be competitive in this ****** game is to loud

[maverickmatt]

Smash damage is fine, it's marauder survivability that is too strong relative to other melee DPS.

 

I strongly disagree with the suggestions to make smash less powerful as an AoE. Smash is the warrior's AoE spec and thus AoE pressure is what it should accomplish. If anything, smash is slightly too strong at single target DPS and that's where an offensive nerf should be if anywhere at all.

 

Marauders were initially designed without Force Camo and Obfuscate. During early closed beta, the PvP team added those two cooldowns based on a knee-jerk reaction to testers saying that the class was too easy to kill. The thing is, most of those testers were low-mid level players and marauders are late bloomers. This led to most people thinking marauders sucked soon after the game's release, when in actuality they were strong all along. I played a marauder during beta and for a year after release, and admittedly low level PvP was pretty miserable without Force Camo back then so I understood all the complaints at the time.

 

The point is, marauders have been defensively overpowered for such a long time now that the necessary changes to put them in the same league as all the other melee will probably never happen. Removing camo really wouldn't break the class, but it would create outrage among all the warriors who have gotten used to having 3 lives (with healers) available on a short cooldown.

 

It's too early to speak for 4v4 balance yet, but 1500+ 8v8 ranked games have taught me that using any other melee class in place of a 2 marauder frontline is settling for something that is beyond noticably worse in almost every way. That is the definition of a massive imbalance, but hey--at least they're fun to play.

 

Marauders are a guilty pleasure.

 

 

.....

 

This has been my point the entire time.

 

Fixing the spec itself requires only a minor tweak or two:

• Remove the surge bonus from the tree. Currently is it possible to get 90% Surge in Rage/Focus which is REALLY stupid. 15% increase to an AOE autocrit.. lol.
  
• Change Smash/Sweep to a melee attack. Currently it is a force attack that is not subjected to any form of accuracy penalty. Force Smashers to stack something other than power/surge.
  
• Revert the insta-smash change. Previously, it was possible to move out of the way.. then smashers had a fit because someone paying attention could avoid it.
  

 

The three changes listed above would keep Rage/Focus as a dominant AOE burst spec, but would put them noticeably behind single target damage specs when attacking a SINGLE TARGET.

 

 

The entire issue is and always has been Mara/Sent DCDs.

 

• GBTF is dumb.. but it's not the issue. They can keep it.
  
• Camo is a problem because it allows them to go "OH SH*T", get a speedboost WHILE stealthed (no other stealther gets that as a baseline), back themselves into leap range.. root you and unload all over again.
  
• Saber ward is only OP when combined with another CD
  

The real issue is.. Rebuke. Too high of an uptime (30 seconds) with too low of a CD (30 seconds). 20% damage reduction does not belong anywhere near a pure DPS class.

 

The real.. REAL issue.. is that often times these CDs are combined to provide Godmode.

 

It gives the Maras a false sense of skill, and frustrates the hell out of the opposing team.

 

Something is OBVIOUSLY busted..

 

Compare Maras to Shadow Tanks.. who is the better tank?

 

I thought so.

[theSCARAYone]

How about you L2P OP. Try a spec that has a more than 2 ability rotation and the hardest hitting instant ability in the game which is also AoE.

[Savej]

The argument of something being fine because there is a chance that it might be countered is so stupidly flawed I don't even know where to start on telling you how dumb that post was.

 

The point of undying is to give you 4 more seconds to live without having to worry about getting killed. At all.

Once you lived through those 4 seconds undying has done it's job, what comes after that hasn't got anything to do with the ability.

 

The problem is that you can take FULL healing while being literally invincible. Those 4 seconds of you and your healer not having to worry about dying is stupidly OP.

 

I think I see your problem: any dps with a freecasting healer nearby is going to seem like an invincible god.

 

Undying ragers still take damage, just not much. But yeah, you probably should switch targets when he pops it, cc him if you can, or evade him, or take a little damage...

 

Undying rage isn't as good as resilience - 0 damage from smashes, 0 ccs from jedi, breaks many snares, etc. - also, 0 self damage to activate. People that can pop that can -guard- their healers, too.

 

Also sorcs and their 10 seconds - stop swinging when you see that, hit the guy healing that invincible sorc instead.

[iheartnyc]

How about you L2P OP. Try a spec that has a more than 2 ability rotation and the hardest hitting instant ability in the game which is also AoE.

 

If you want to have a serious discussion, then try something a bit more intelligent than "L2P smash monkey is so easy!"

Edited September 3, 2013 by iheartnyc

[BraaxusKun]

If you want to have a serious discussion, then try something a bit more intelligent than "L2P smash monkey is so easy!"

 

I agree, him saying that smash is only a 2 button rotation is arrogant, everyone knows it's 3 buttons.

 

Seriously, I have no problem with smash and don't think it needs nerfed, but never compare the skill level required of other classes to smash.

Edited September 3, 2013 by BraaxusKun

[BraaxusKun]

^

Somebody sounds sore that Pyro got nerfed while it was FOTM, and Smash takes so long to be brought down. Tested AP on the PTR. It. Is. AWESOME.

 

AP is good on live aswell, powertechs just need to quit complaining and try it

[DarthOvertone]

I agree, him saying that smash is only a 2 button rotation is arrogant, everyone knows it's 3 buttons.

 

lol

 

45

[iheartnyc]

Seriously, I have no problem with smash and don't think it needs nerfed, but never compare the skill level required of other classes to smash.

 

Right, because spamming force lightning or grenade requires much more skill Skill is not the issue here, it's balance.

[madtycoon]

.....

[*] Revert the insta-smash change. Previously, it was possible to move out of the way.. then smashers had a fit because someone paying attention could avoid it.

 

I never understood why they changed smash/sweep to not follow the animation, but most (if not all?) other abilities still respect their animation delay.

 

That being said, I wouldn't mess with smash marauders yet. I mean it is clearly broken in warzones, but if they are balancing for 4v4 there hasn't been enough time to really see. I had one bad session against double mara on the PTS and was really questioning even playing this game, swtiched specs to madness/lethality and so far we're farming it. I don't see that changing. Marauders can't cleanse their healer. Smash is faceroll and cleaves are easier to play. Its going to take time for people to figure out the comps that might counter them. If that makes sense.

[theSCARAYone]

If you want to have a serious discussion, then try something a bit more intelligent than "L2P smash monkey is so easy!"

 

Has nothing to do with easy, the spec simply takes 0 skill. Force exhaustion, smash, find something that's not on cooldown until they are back up, rinse repeat. Literally a 5 year old could get top dps in a wz with smash spec.

[Evolixe]

I think I see your problem: any dps with a freecasting healer nearby is going to seem like an invincible god.

 

Undying ragers still take damage, just not much. But yeah, you probably should switch targets when he pops it, cc him if you can, or evade him, or take a little damage...

 

Undying rage isn't as good as resilience - 0 damage from smashes, 0 ccs from jedi, breaks many snares, etc. - also, 0 self damage to activate. People that can pop that can -guard- their healers, too.

 

Also sorcs and their 10 seconds - stop swinging when you see that, hit the guy healing that invincible sorc instead.

 

Really?

 

You can't compare shroud to undying rage.

 

Why? Because that are 2 different abilities with 2 completely different purposes.

I will rarely pop shroud to save my life, it's more of a utility ability than it is a lifesaver.

 

However in undying rage, no matter what you do.. That marauder is NOT going to die in the next 4 seconds.

Buying time to get healed up, or get away. Whatever it is undying rage promotes playing super recklessly.

 

I can very much still die in shroud even if used at 50%+ btw. All it requires is for people to switch to white attacks.

[Heal-To-Full]

Otherwise why no nerf tanks as well, this guard and taunts are really annoying, they ruin all that beautiful damage and make healers unkillable

Because there's a huge difference between tactical 30% protection and 50% redirection from one player only for a total of 300k-500k protection, only 150k-200k of that prevented completely, and flat-out team-wide nullification of damage for 1-2 million per match.

Edited September 3, 2013 by B-Dick

[waterboytkd]

Really?

 

You can't compare shroud to undying rage.

 

Why? Because that are 2 different abilities with 2 completely different purposes.

I will rarely pop shroud to save my life, it's more of a utility ability than it is a lifesaver.

 

However in undying rage, no matter what you do.. That marauder is NOT going to die in the next 4 seconds.

Buying time to get healed up, or get away. Whatever it is undying rage promotes playing super recklessly.

 

I can very much still die in shroud even if used at 50%+ btw. All it requires is for people to switch to white attacks.

So if the problem with undying rage is the invincibility while losing zero offensive ability, why not just give maras/sents a 4 second stun instead? Then their AoE mez replaces their undying rage as the "i'm getting ganked by a group, need an out" move, and their new 4 second stun is their "i need an ace in the hole to win this 1v1" move. And they never have invincibility.

 

Does that balance maras/sents? And I don't mean smash specs, because if smash spec is a problem but annie and carnie aren't problems, then AC abilities aren't what need addressing. The only way undying rage is a problem is if the whole AC is a problem for PvP.

 

I'd also like to address an earlier post you made about mara/sent DCDs. Other dps classes have DCDs on par with those.

 

Rebuke, like Undying Rage, can be countered by simply disengaging for a short period of time (6 and 4 seconds, respectively).

 

And for Camo, complaining about the speed boost seems silly. Sure, it comes as part of the ability, whereas the Stealther ACs have to invest to get that, but it's only 1 stealth ability, and it only lasts 4 seconds, as opposed to the Stealther ACs which get 2 abilities to enter stealth (one while in combat, and Stealth), and their stealth lasts indefinitely. Force Camo and Stealth are very different abilities that fulfill very different purposes, and comparing them seems pointless.

 

Other classes can pop their DCDs all at the same time, too, to become very difficult to kill. On my Deception Assassin, popping Deflection with Dark Embrace (which you automatically get when exiting stealth) is comparable to Saber Ward and Rebuke.

 

I will admit, I'm a bit biased: I play Carnage Mara and Combat Sentinel as my primaries. But against other good players, I don't feel like I'm playing godmode. Nothing worse than popping Undying Rage to finish off the Assassin (who got the first strike, mind you), only to have him Force Cloak...then reappear a few seconds later, leading with a spike or low slash or electrocute, and finishing me off. There's also nothing more gratifying than doing that to a sent/mara when I'm on my Sin...

[Seengularity]

Thanks for yours posts guys - And that's why Rage will not be changed at this time. Smash will seem OP until the day the ranged kids stop comparing their CDs to a completely different class and stop expecting/wanting to be a 30m Warrior.... and learn to exploit their own strengths... and leverage their other 7 / 3 team members... and learn to play the class they chose... and L2P.

 

OR, just ask the devs why sniper is so far and beyond any of the other ranged classes.

 

PT was the only class that, if at all, and due to its limitations, needed a little something and they have gotten it. Nerf Op healz and let the fun times roll.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Seengularity

[PhatMcMuffins]

Exactly, which is why I said earlier, that the game seems to be balanced around melee (credit to this idea to Jeck). It's going to be a pain in the *** trying to figure out what kind of other balancing will be required if and when Smash is nerfed. It is not as simple as people seem to think, and it certainly deserves more attention. Simply blaming everything on smash is distracting and avoids the overall balance problems this game has.

 

I do agree with you here. It can't be some flat nerf. I think things need to be changed (singularity stacking on a single target, instead of the smasher would cause one player to take the large amount and the others to take a reasonable amount. not my idea, read it elsewhere) and that includes balancing smash, not destroying like the did pryotech. Smash isn't a problem only because of itself, it is also due to the overall balance of other specs.

 

Edit: Seeng, where are your vids at? you said to check em out last night when we were in that huttball

Edited September 3, 2013 by PhatMcMuffins

[Individual]

I will destroy your arguments 1 by 1:

 

1) OMG the AOE!!!

 

Dear friend, the AOE will not be an issue in Arenas unless you play against a really bad team, there really is no reason why your smash should be hitting more than one person at any given time

 

2) OMG those defensive CDs!!!

 

Dear friend, by definition, a Smash is a melee class, who typically receives the second most damage in the team next to the Healer, it needs these defensive CDs or it will die more often than a Sorcerer/Sage. The potential damage output of a smash is balanced by the risk that it takes by "face tanking" - tab targetting favors the target that is right in front of you, e.g., the Smash

 

3) OMG but other classes are melee too!!!

 

Dear friend, those other classes have long-term stealth abilities, that fecking roll ability, among other awesome utility skills NONE of which the Smash has, ability to respec into a super strong heal or tank class.

 

4) OMG but what about your surge and power rating???

 

Dear friend, other classes are putting out 12k + single target hits. Smash will do this only against a PVE geared player. Other classes also have that 30% AOE mitigation ability which results in pitiful 3k smashes.

 

5) OMG but I just suck at the game and I want to be better!!!!

 

Dear friend, this is the crux of the "nerf x" threads. You nerf Smash, well that will put either Jugg Smash or Powertech/Vanguard hybrid the next OP class. Still, nobody will play scoundrel DPS, shadow DPS or sage DPS in Arenas.

 

6) OMG then we should nerf healing, and buff non-Smash DPS classes/builds!

 

Dear friend, YES! Buff those DOT builds. Buff Sage/Sorc. Also, healing needs to be looked at. Healing was and never should be intended to keep a player up indefinitely - it should just be a measure to prolong your life. Arenas should never go to the acid gas stage. The problem is, the DPS in this game is so weak that it is very hard to burn down a healer with a good tank.

 

OMG THE DEFENSIVE COOL DOWNS.... How come other melee classes can't do the same? Did you ever think you take more damage on the team because you can survive the longest? If I had a PT that could do the same as you guys, I would probably take that same amount of damage as you do. You're argument here is flawed.

 

OMG THE AOE... Yes it's auto crit aoe. I wish I had abilities that auto crit on my other classes like you guys do. More over, I wish I had an aoe auto crit ability on an orbital strike. The other problem with Smash, is you can't avoid it like you can most other aoe abilities in this game.

 

OMG I JUST SUCK.... Good, I would rather see another class on top over smashers. Easy spec. It doesn't take a lot of skill to leap into a group and smash to get numbers. Furthermore, maras and jugs have other specs that will still do good damage unlike some of the other classes like Bounty Hunters.

[Ravenschild]

I can do that but first you need to tell me how am i supposed to beat a sniper as a guardian.

 

Force push out of cover,enrage,jump to them,sundering assault,smash. Its what happens to me on my sniper all the time if I am caught by a jugg/guardian. Now that that is answered can I hear your response?

[Seengularity]

OMG THE DEFENSIVE COOL DOWNS.... How come other melee classes can't do the same? Did you ever think you take more damage on the team because you can survive the longest? If I had a PT that could do the same as you guys, I would probably take that same amount of damage as you do. You're argument here is flawed.

 

Wait, what? Juggs/Mara can do it... and the only other 2 melee classes are stealth? 2 visible - 2 invisible (5 if counting PT). Did you ever think that melee takes more dmg on the team because.. melee is at the epicenter of the fight? by necessity, always; and hence the CDs? Ranged may decide to set foot into the core of a massive fight, but they most definitely don't have to (thats what the tank/melee DDs should be doing). Melee may decide to set foot outside the core of a massive fight, but they most definitely.... wait... why would melee do that? stand on the sideline and look pretty?

 

OMG THE AOE... Yes it's auto crit aoe. I wish I had abilities that auto crit on my other classes like you guys do. More over, I wish I had an aoe auto crit ability on an orbital strike. The other problem with Smash, is you can't avoid it like you can most other aoe abilities in this game.

 

I wish I had force push. A stun. I wish my only 30m attack had 5 second cool down. Yes, smash cannot be avoided for the most part (it can in reality). The stronger/smarter players have learned to often times anticipate the unavoidable... and avoid it (I know... it's a mind-blowing concept).

 

OMG I JUST SUCK.... Good, I would rather see another class on top over smashers. Easy spec. It doesn't take a lot of skill to leap into a group and smash to get numbers. Furthermore, maras and jugs have other specs that will still do good damage unlike some of the other classes like Bounty Hunters.

 

You probably are some butthurt BH. And let me tell you that I know of at least 5 PTs in the bastion that'll melt your face off in a jiffy son, and do just fine overall. I noticed you said BH, if not PT then, are you trying to say DD Mercs suck? that's not gonna go well around here... Wait and what's this about "Rather see another class on top"... on top of what? report card fluff-numbers? are you new?

 

This is a silly-fkn-thread anyway... get out of my face ***** nO'Obs...

Edited September 4, 2013 by Seengularity