Why Smash Should Not be Nerfed

[JaingSkiratapwns]

 

read very carefully what you just said. because here's what I'm getting: sniper can do the same amount of dmg that a smasher can in the same amount of time but not as fast.

 

I can only speak for MM, but that's bogus. sniper needs multiple gcds/setup to do what a smasher can right off the bat (enrage+leap > smash). of course, I've only smashed with my jugg, so I cannot speak for mara/sent smashing.

 

I meant that in the downtime between smashes, a sniper easily out damages the smasher, its just sheep clump, sheep see everyone's health take a hit, sheep complain on the forums, sheep ignore all the other big hitting attacks and focus on just one.

 

Mark my words, if smash gets nerfed, the next best DPS class is next to be whined about.

[Yestreen]

Any smash mara/sent with any reasonable level of skill knows that their class is too strong relative to other melee dps classes.

 

Either the OP lives in an alternate reality or he is a bad player.

[JaingSkiratapwns]

Any smash mara/sent with any reasonable level of skill knows that their class is too strong relative to other melee dps classes.

 

Either the OP lives in an alternate reality or he is a bad player.

 

No offense, but you're playing a operative healer and calling something OP?

[PloGreen]

I don't need a buff hell I don't even want one. You need a nerf.

 

I was saying that I can fullfill my job without being horrendously OP.

 

I like it when my class requires the utmost from a player to be considered a good choice, was the same for rogues for a very long time. Teaches you to play on the edges of insanity.

 

Same reason I favour a sage. Most people consider it ****, but I love playing tk, hybrid, healing etc.

I have two classes that can smash both 55 geared etc. There are certain aspects of the sent class that need a tweak in regards to rage/focus. DCDs are a bit much if 4v4 is the new ranked. Would rather they nerf rage and tweak watchman. Guardians are ok imo, the trade off is they die very easily if they are rage.focus. Problem has always been class stacking with rage, but this can be countered by decent tanks/heals/peels and positioning.

 

Do I think its OP? As I say I think sents need some adjustments, but there are a few things in the game overall that need adjustments to make classes more viable for arenas. Some basically have it a lot easier than others.

 

But I don't kid myself smash is hard to play, because it really isn't, it's predictable and boring.

[TonyDragonflame]

I don't need a buff hell I don't even want one. You need a nerf.

 

I was saying that I can fullfill my job without being horrendously OP.

 

I like it when my class requires the utmost from a player to be considered a good choice, was the same for rogues for a very long time. Teaches you to play on the edges of insanity.

 

Please, stop shaming your guild.

Assasin/shadow, who crying and whining about nerf smashers just demonstarate how terribad he is.

 

I ever dont need explain this simple fact. And yes, I have guardian smasher valor 9x (personally prefer playing defence tank), sentinel smasher valor 8x (prefer watchman but yes playing focus atm) and shadow valor 7x (infiltration). I eat smashers on breakfast with my shadow. One wz I have 7 or ever 9 solo kills only smashers. Hell, I eat them on lunch with my scrapper scoundrel.

 

Roll all classes, and only in that case you can something speaking about balance. I have all classes for pvp (commando, gunslinger and sage still something lowbies, but I love play them and leveling now).

In my opinion, balance in general is fine, every class have own niche and good in right hands.

[Helig]

Please, stop shaming your guild.

Assasin/shadow, who crying and whining about nerf smashers just demonstarate how terribad he is.

 

I ever dont need explain this simple fact. And yes, I have guardian smasher valor 9x (personally prefer playing defence tank), sentinel smasher valor 8x (prefer watchman but yes playing focus atm) and shadow valor 7x (infiltration). I eat smashers on breakfast with my shadow. One wz I have 7 or ever 9 solo kills only smashers. Hell, I eat them on lunch with my scrapper scoundrel.

 

Roll all classes, and only in that case you can something speaking about balance. I have all classes for pvp (commando, gunslinger and sage still something lowbies, but I love play them and leveling now).

In my opinion, balance in general is fine, every class have own niche and good in right hands.

I think it's less about 1v1 and more about group performance. Healing, Guarding and shizz. Don't think any player with a good perspective on class balance would consider smashers too strong for 1v1.

[Evolixe]

Please, stop shaming your guild.

 

My guild has nothing to do with any of what I say.

 

Not only that, your presumptions are hilarious seeing you clearly have no idea who I am.

[TonyDragonflame]

I think it's less about 1v1 and more about group performance. Healing, Guarding and shizz. Don't think any player with a good perspective on class balance would consider smashers too strong for 1v1.

 

1 vs 1 is very very important part of pvp, its measuring of e-peen.

Main weakness of smashers is they have very poor crowd control.

Assasins have stealth, 2 ways of escape for healing to full (vanish and teleport), 6 sec mezz from stealth, hard 4 sec stun on 1 min cd, ranged 8 sec mezz on 1 min cd and 4 sec godmode mezz on 15 sec (!) cd. Summary 4 cc ability. Dont forget about force wave (sentinels dont have any knockback or push).

 

Smashers have no stealth, 1 aoe 6 sec mezz 1 min cd and 1 channeled 3 sec stun 45 sec/1 min cd. Thats all.

[TonyDragonflame]

My guild has nothing to do with any of what I say.

 

Not only that, your presumptions are hilarious seeing you clearly have no idea who I am.

 

I know who you are. I wonder why you leave White noise and join Coral. For me, your place in White noise forever.

[Evolixe]

You forgot the camo and UR that make them factually invincible.

[TonyDragonflame]

You forgot the camo and UR that make them factually invincible.

 

UR value compared with resilience. It cost 25% hp, dont forget.

Camo yes, little vanish its very very useful thing and bit OP. But its only 4 sec on 1 min cd.

 

I know you are very very good player so please stop crying about nerf anything. its just destructive and useless. if you want understand any class which seems you OP, just roll alt, play it and you got understanding what things are not easy from the other side.

 

Anyway, I think now balance in general is better than any other time in game.

[Evolixe]

UR value compared with resilience. It cost 25% hp, dont forget.

Camo yes, little vanish its very very useful thing and bit OP. But its only 4 sec on 1 min cd.

 

I know you are very very good player so please stop crying about nerf anything. its just destructive and useless. if you want understand any class which seems you OP, just roll alt, play it and you got understanding what things are not easy from the other side.

 

Anyway, I think now balance in general is better than any other time in game.

 

I actually do have a Marauder and my thoughts aren't any different. Survivability is stupid.

UR's function is to make you last through the next 4 seconds without any chance of retaliation. And it does that just fine.

 

The problem is that you can use it far FAR too often. Alongside Camo.. which identically is a full-reset aswell.. that's just out of proportion.

 

And as I said before, UR is nothing like resilience. I can easly die in Resilience. It doesn't make me invincible.

It just makes me immume to force abilities for a 3 second time period. It's not usable as a life-saver because it doesn't function as one.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Evolixe

[NogueiraA]

Any smash mara/sent with any reasonable level of skill knows that their class is too strong relative to other melee dps classes.

 

Either the OP lives in an alternate reality or he is a bad player.

The other classes needs a buff.

[Helig]

The problem is that you can use it far FAR too often. Alongside Camo.. which identically is a full-reset aswell.. that's just out of proportion.

Not quite as dramatic, no. For this, you need several factors to align - first, you have a healer available (duh), second, this healer is within range; third, the healer is allowed to free cast, and fourth, he doesn't have more pressing targets. Otherwise, it's not really a full reset. From 10-ish%, a healer under pressure might just pull him out of execute range.

 

We usually hardswitch to the healer, once the smasher vanishes/uses UR. It's not hard to squeeze UR+camo out of the smasher. He's mobile, but his mobility is almost solely offensive. My limited Infil Shadow experience in competitive environment suggests that there are not enough roots among popular comps to reliably deny you sprint-LoSing. Might not be as good as camo every 45s, or UR, but it works. And combat stealth exists combat, allowing you for a second medpack at some point later in the fight. In addition to Low Slash, and other CC (granted, hard stun is best saved for hard burn, and knockback is best for playing terrain, but is more affordable), I'd say I could cut off pursuit to give the healer some breathing space to lift me up.

 

From what I've seen in your Arena vid, you seem to employ similar tricks for survival. Might argue that that takes more skill than Marauder survival, but I think they just occupy a different niche, and head-to-head comparison of two classes in just one aspect isn't entirely fair.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Helig

[Vaerah]

My limited Infil Shadow experience in competitive environment suggests that there are not enough roots among popular comps to reliably deny you sprint-LoSing. Might not be as good as camo every 45s, or UR, but it works.

 

Sprint LOS is something that works against *some* bads, it's not a "free off jail" card. The first thing the others do when they see a sprinting shadow is:

 

- "He sprints, let's check his health"

- Health low and squishiest class in game, good.

- Throw a slow / root / whatever.

- Shadow dead.

 

 

And combat stealth exists combat, allowing you for a second medpack at some point later in the fight.

 

Despite popular belief, combat stealh is what's needed to kill people when there's no good assist.

Using it for "medpack" halves a shadow potential to get home a kill. What's the tradeoff for smashers? High damage but also AoE and easy to play? Ah that's the tradeoff.

 

 

In addition to Low Slash, and other CC (granted, hard stun is best saved for hard burn, and knockback is best for playing terrain, but is more affordable), I'd say I could cut off pursuit to give the healer some breathing space to lift me up.

 

Low slash is only good to get buffs, the CC portion basically never works as the target WILL get some random damage in the meanwhile.

 

 

but I think they just occupy a different niche, and head-to-head comparison of two classes in just one aspect isn't entirely fair.

 

Yes shadows and sins occupy the niche of those who *were* only competitive for node guarding (which is going away).

Smashers? I don't know about their role but it's 2 days I have returned back to the game and 2 days I never get a single WZ where we don't have 3 smashers against. NEVER.

[Evolixe]

My limited Infil Shadow experience in competitive environment suggests that there are not enough roots among popular comps to reliably deny you sprint-LoSing. Might not be as good as camo every 45s, or UR, but it works.

 

That is EXACTLY my point.

 

Look, when I sprint and LoS or whatever to catch my breath for a second.. I'm completely out of the fight. I'm absolutely useless to my teammates.

 

A marauder doesn't have to do this EVER because they have 2 very short cooldowns that basically allow them to keep in the field indefinitely. Given camo puts you out for 4 seconds.. but it atleast absolutely guarantees your survival.

 

Even when behind LoS I'm not certain of my life. What if I had to fight with all my strength and got behind the pillar with a sticky grenade @ 1s and 2k hp while my healer has another 2 seconds left on cc?

 

A marauder would survive this without even having to leave the playing field. I don't stand a chance.

[Helig]

That is EXACTLY my point.

 

Look, when I sprint and LoS or whatever to catch my breath for a second.. I'm completely out of the fight. I'm absolutely useless to my teammates.

 

A marauder doesn't have to do this EVER because they have 2 very short cooldowns that basically allow them to keep in the field indefinitely. Given camo puts you out for 4 seconds.. but it atleast absolutely guarantees your survival.

Well, to be entirely honest, I do think that UR's cooldown, PvP set bonus and Rage talents included, is almost absurdly short, for such a strong skill. I don't see the utter necessity for Marauder set bonus to reduce it, and I really don't think that the Rage tree needs a talent that buffs Undying Rage.

 

I believe the default 1.30 cooldowns is pretty reasonable, and I think I can bear with it becoming 2 mins long. But don't touch my Camo It's one of my favourite Marauder skills, like, ever. At least as far as Carnage is concerned.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Helig

[Cordorian]

Assassin Shadows are annoying as hell in regs (if played well), but i don't think they are OP (I am jealous at them at times, because I play the other stealth class in DPS a lot, and they pretty much no have everything we would want).

Yes best 1v1 class in the game, but pvp isn't a duel and with arenas there will be even less 1v1 situations.

Assassin pure sustained damage output at the moment is like worst in the game, if my current info on parses is correct and if they don't go some hybrid that isn't as good as it used to be, they have like no decent AoE attacks.

They have a good and reliable single target burst and along with Operatives the best CC. Depending on tactics and coordination they can probably be one of the hottest classes in arenas, but they surely aren't a must atm.

Stealth in great in regs, but it comes at a price maras dont have.

As an Assassin you either need to burn one of your most important CDs (which is on a quite long CD) your combat stealth or you have to get out of combat to use it. The out of combat mechanic is slightly broken and don't expect to ever get out of combat when engaged in the main fight in 8v8 ranked or in Arenas. Force Camo despite being only 4 s long is a relative low CD, so it actually makes sense to use it, as much as possible. Evo probably knows hell more about Assassins than I do, but I think nobody would deny such a CD, not even a stealth based class.

 

In general, since this thread goes into many directions and is thereby a bit confusing at moment, i think we don't have to discuss that on the healing front, Scoundrels Operatives currently are the class to pick, that tanks need to be jugg/guardians, ranged DPS snipe/slingers and melee DPS rage/focus mara/sents. And we dont have to

argue this situation is far from optimal, especially with respecs not being possible in the future in competitive pvp.

 

 

What we are face with here is the question, whether one class and spec that has about the best damaging ability in the game and the best DCDs in the game, shouldnt be seriously looked at. Just Smash isn't OP, as everybody seems to agree on, Jugg/Guardians in Smash by far lack the survivability (which i find ridiculous since after all they have can tank as well). This Combo is the problem. I think nobody believes class balance will be sorted if smash mara/sents get nerfed, but it seriously needs a deep look at.

[Savej]

Any smash mara/sent with any reasonable level of skill knows that their class is too strong relative to other melee dps classes.

 

Either the OP lives in an alternate reality or he is a bad player.

 

You mean sins/dps-ops? Those classes have stealth and ccs up the wazzoo (amongst other things including great def cds for sins) and they can flip to tank or healer (and do a little of either without a skill reset). If you mean vs other specs? Carnage is great, just not at aoe. 1v1 or 2v2 I'd much rather be carnage. Watchmen can use tweaks. Vigilance can use a bit more consistent dps and to be less dependent on channelled melee dmg but it has its uses in pvp (again, it wins 1v1 or 2v2). All of those specs are better (or much better) than smash for most if not all raid boss fights.

 

"Either the OP lives in an alternate reality or he is a bad player." = Not the sign of someone that knows what he's talking about. Listening to trolls too much (learn to think) or you are one.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Savej

[NogueiraA]

Can someone please tell me why Marauder/sentinel has more Defensive cooldowns to survive?

[Vaerah]

You mean sins/dps-ops? Those classes have stealth and ccs up the wazzoo (amongst other things including great def cds for sins)

 

WE HAZ STEALTH!

 

It's so good, that it takes to be people like Evolixe or Xinika or other "super unattainable gurus" to even be allowed in a ranked team as a shadow / sin of ANY spec (usually only accepted as tank-in-DPS-gear spec).

 

Needless to say, with the removal of ranked WZs and the pylons to guard, even that niche has been removed.

 

Here's the quite disparaging arenas reports by our class representative, Xinika.

 

"Sins are middle-pack tier in Arena. They are not bad and they are not that impressive. However, even being at middle of the pack, they will require the player to truly perform at a top notch level"

 

and they can flip to tank or healer (and do a little of either without a skill reset).

 

WE HAZ HEALZ!

 

Yeah shadows can heal to full!

 

Oh wait, that's Sages, Shadows can't heal nor respec to healer.

After super-terrible experience in other MMOS, it's years I am explictly rolling classes that can never heal, as the "if you have 1 heal spell you'll be forced to spec and play healer always and everywhere" is a strong rule that works across the most diverse MMOs.

 

Anyway it shows how much you know of Shadows and Sins and how qualified are your posts.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Vaerah

[NathanielStarr]

Why are they suddenly acting like they are the only ones that get cc'd? ***

 

Maybe if warriors had lesser DCDs the healers would have to work harder and that would create a balance for them.

[Monoth]

How in the world are people missing the most obvious and basic distinctions here? A sniper is a RANGED DPS CLASS so please stop comparing the two like they're equal! A sniper isn't being focused, stunned, rooted, pushed away from healer, isolated, etc. In a ranked game the sniper will never take the amount of DPS that a Smasher does. If it wasn't for the Smasher's DCDs, the Smasher would be the single highest killed character in the game. Other than a healer, no other target is being focused as much as a smasher. The reasons for this are simple. They are in your face. They are separated from the tanks, ranged DPS and healers. Tab-targetting also targets by default the nearest target. Also, people tend to have tunnel vision so they'll use their CCs and DPS abilities on the target that is in their face.

 

The sniper gets to do its relatively weaker burst from a safe range, while also dropping down awesome AOEs that are larger in size than Smash (smash has only a 5m range), compare that to sniper which has 30m range. In many a ranked game between top teams, the snipers are bar none the highest DPS class. Sure, they may not have the "on-demand Smash" that everyone is complaining about, but they're doing a lot of damage output with little focus. And it's not all splash damage either. You can't say that a sniper who did 200-500K more damange in a single WZ was simply dishing out "minor splash damage" - 200-500K extra damage in a WZ by a single player is a HUGE amount of damage which needs to be healed and mitigated and adds a HUGE amount of pressure to the other team.

 

Also, 2-3 smasher can't "immediately create a ring of AOE death." They have to have leap up. They have to avoid being CC'd or rooted. They have to avoid being slowed and kited. They have to avoided being pushed back. They have to avoid being killed first when the entire enemy team decides to global you. And if you get globalled, you pray you have your DCDs up so you can run back to your healer to be healed, and then you can leap back in, and then again avoid being pushed back, avoid being CCd and slowed. And maybe you'll get your 3 stacks of singularity up, and THEN you can pray that the enemy team decides to just stand around in a gaggle and let you smash them at will. But more likely most of them will spread out and your puny 5m range Smash will only hit 1-2 targets.

 

Awesome fun.

 

Snipers AOE "" ring of death "" is a joke, it paints a target on the ground giving everyone a good 5 seconds to get out of its way. If you stand in it then you deserve to die for being a bad player... All Snipers/Gunslingers AOE's are good for is keeping people from planting a bomb or taking a turret.

 

Snipers are only OP if people ignore them. Not to mention were pretty much screwed when people do target us as we can't run and shoot as all are big skills require us to be stationary, which Sins love because it's basically a free kill for them since we can't run away.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Can someone please tell me why Marauder/sentinel has more Defensive cooldowns to survive?

 

Good question. I have no idea.

 

Perhapsfor their early levels ? Because they are rather "late bloomers" ?

 

But nobody here looks at early levels. Of course not.

 

Snipers AOE "" ring of death "" is a joke, it paints a target on the ground giving everyone a good 5 seconds to get out of its way.

 

Ever heard the terem "psychological warfare" ?

 

I can PREDICT people running away from my gunslinger's bombardement ! It's as easy as predicting sheep running away from a predator - into my stable.

 

Since I assume you are American, to paraphrase James Madison (Federalist Papers 10, but I assume you don't like to read since you didn't bother reading any of the posts in this thread before vomitting all over your keyboard), trying to shut down people who have the unpopular, minority opinion is the worst form of tyranny - but hey, continue on being a little Napoleon if it makes you feel better, or just close your browser like a good boy.

 

Ever heard of people mirroring each other ?

 

It's a funny concept. You should check it out.

Edited September 6, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Spieljunge]

on my assassin, i could knockback him/them, i could hit force shroud (3 sec immune), i could force speed away, i could vanish, i could use my defensive -25 percent damage skill, i could low slash one, AND i could be in stealth in the first place.

 

this whole discussion is just a l2p issue

 

 

1 on 1... ok. knockback if he Smash would hit you, knockback 1 sek. earlier and then he Smash... he is a gimp.

shroud + Smash good for you, but rly dear smashmonkeys if your enemy is assassin and it shining like a Christmas tree don't Smash... what you say is if your enemy smashmonkey is a gimp you would win

 

smart assassin will win again smashmonkey nearly ever, but most time we use the gimpness of our enemies and what you say is 1 on 1, Smash against 4 People i want to see how you want to Counter this. Stack 2x Smash and its more funnier, normal bg and stack 4x Smash and i want to see who would win.

 

Smash is an easy mode skill, like PT it was and it would be.