New Patch notes for Pyro/assualt speced PT/vang 28/08/2013 Positive changes

[foxmob]

The fact that AP was the sustained damage spec is a balance fail on BW part, and actually no it wasn't always the best sustained dps, in 1.7 the highest parses where pyro spec only with TD dropped in favor of the lower tiers of AP.

 

Pyro SHOULD be the sustained dps spec, thats what I have been trying to say. If we are going to psuh for changes we should push for better dot damage and more synergy with the dots, not for 8k TD. Not to mention we will prob never see 8k pyro hits, since it is against BW's spec philosophy.

 

Although I have heard that immolate is doing 7-8k on the PTS consistently, unfortunately my vanguard doesn't have good enough of a dps set to test it

 

i agree with you about tactics/ap that it should be burst (as gunnery is burst for mandos too), but a channel that requres a 4m setup (rb) and 3 more abils....rb individually applied...the aoe channel is conal...that's really really tough. that's asking way too much. the setup wouldn't be bad if the burst weren't an easily avoidable channel.

[Zoom_VI]

i agree with you about tactics/ap that it should be burst (as gunnery is burst for mandos too), but a channel that requres a 4m setup (rb) and 3 more abils....rb individually applied...the aoe channel is conal...that's really really tough. that's asking way too much. the setup wouldn't be bad if the burst weren't an easily avoidable channel.

 

Well first immolate (instant) crits for 7k now on pts, and the 90% snare on PFT makes it easier to keep enemies in the cone, plus its elemental so it shreds tanks just as well too (something smash can't do!). In fact there are several arena teams on the pts that stack AP PT with a hybrid Ap/shield tank, and do considerably well

[Zoom_VI]

FYI, that is exactly how TD was on PTS when 2.0 first hit. And it was like that for about a month. And then Bioware destroyed AP and Pyro. It was hitting for 7-8k.

 

Do you know how many people complained that it was overpowered? *Zero*. Because it wasnt. And it wouldnt be now.

 

 

It would bring Pyro in line with other DPS classes for PvP. God forbid we have class parity.

 

People weren't complaining about it cause the 800k hp bolster crap, plus they where still in shock over stuff like scamper and entrench buffs. Plus they were to busy complaining over autocrat railshot every six seconds build.

 

and again what the crap do you have against AP being a burst spec?!?!

[PhatMcMuffins]

AP is decent live riht now. The changes will make it fully viable.

These changes will make pyro also viable.

 

I'm in favor of all PT/VG changes that have been implemented or proposed for 2.4 and that's hard to say considering how much i hate to give BW props. There will now be distinct advantages to spec'ing fully into each tree

 

That madness assassin guy back on page 2 is all "pyros will be able to snare 20 people, explode healers, kite melees into oblivion and cure cancer all while running the huttball!!!!!! All hail the new lords of PVP pyrotechs!!!!"

 

Also, never take anyone who runs madness assassin seriously. They are choosing to gimp the hell out of themselves with arguably the worst spec in game.

Edited August 29, 2013 by PhatMcMuffins

[ausmisc]

I think the pyro needs a bit of its burst back to compensate it for total lack of utility (compared to AP). Sure it will get these new survivability talents which might be good (haven't tested them yet to see, they should be comparable to energy rebounder) but it's still behind on such things as passive AOE and stun 30% DR, 15% movement speed, lower CD on grapple and FT, increased shoulder rockets + dmg, increased duration on HO, heat regen..

 

If AP is the burst and utility tree with good survivability, is Pyro to be the low damage DOT class with no utility and average survivability?

 

I'm by no way insinuating that AP should be nerfed, just that Pyro needs something in comparison to make it more worthwhile to play- and if that's not some godlike survivability then it needs to be damage (which it's currently parsing a fair bit less)

 

Also our 36 point talent being not being an instant cast kind of hints to me that it should be doing more upfront damage than it is to compensate for the delay. I know it's generally used to lineup a railshot alongside the TD impact, but it doesn't do much for you when you're neck and neck with someone and need some straight up damage to finish them first.

 

Edit: PVP perspective only.

Edited August 29, 2013 by ausmisc

[cashogy_reborn]

People weren't complaining about it cause the 800k hp bolster crap, plus they where still in shock over stuff like scamper and entrench buffs. Plus they were to busy complaining over autocrat railshot every six seconds build.

 

and again what the crap do you have against AP being a burst spec?!?!

 

I can tell you really spent a lot of time testing things during 2.0.....

 

Pyro was on PTS, without the stupid bolster bug, for about a month. The final changes and epic nerfs came with about a week left on the PTS.

 

I have nothing against AP as a burst spec, but it is *NOT* a burst spec. Not in PvP anyways; its most damaging attack is a channel that requires a long setup.....

 

And nobody cried about TD in the early 2.0 build because it was not overpowered. It has nothing to do with any other class, because if it had been overpowered you would have seen QQ about that as well. This community wastes no time complaining about the tiniest thing. Yet nobody whined about that........

 

An un-fked up TD would not be overpowered. Not even close.

[Zunayson]

I can tell you really spent a lot of time testing things during 2.0.....

 

Pyro was on PTS, without the stupid bolster bug, for about a month. The final changes and epic nerfs came with about a week left on the PTS.

 

I have nothing against AP as a burst spec, but it is *NOT* a burst spec. Not in PvP anyways; its most damaging attack is a channel that requires a long setup.....

 

And nobody cried about TD in the early 2.0 build because it was not overpowered. It has nothing to do with any other class, because if it had been overpowered you would have seen QQ about that as well. This community wastes no time complaining about the tiniest thing. Yet nobody whined about that........

 

An un-fked up TD would not be overpowered. Not even close.

 

for the record, setup for PFT is 4.5 seconds, only 50% more than smash via 3 second crush dot. The real kicker is the fact that it's channeled.

[Zoom_VI]

I can tell you really spent a lot of time testing things during 2.0.....

 

Pyro was on PTS, without the stupid bolster bug, for about a month. The final changes and epic nerfs came with about a week left on the PTS.

 

I have nothing against AP as a burst spec, but it is *NOT* a burst spec. Not in PvP anyways; its most damaging attack is a channel that requires a long setup.....

 

And nobody cried about TD in the early 2.0 build because it was not overpowered. It has nothing to do with any other class, because if it had been overpowered you would have seen QQ about that as well. This community wastes no time complaining about the tiniest thing. Yet nobody whined about that........

 

An un-fked up TD would not be overpowered. Not even close.

 

How about this for why those 8k thermal dets. Arenas - thermal det requires absolutely zero setup, so you take three pyros and a healer the three pyro HO charge in pop battle focus (translation?) then drop three TD on a target, that's what, how much instant damage? plus since TD has a delay they can drop rails right near the TD detonation, that's like how much instant dps? I mean really at least smash has the decency of being able to side step, and cant be timed together with other abilities.

 

There is enough class stacking in this game, don't need more. there are dozens of ideas floating around the forums on how to bring pyro and AP viability up to par, without 8k TD.

 

Basically I think your too suck on 1.7 to see all the other possibilities for the spec, pyro needs a redesign mechanically to that its dots sync, we can all agree on this. BW will not revert to 1.7, we need to move forward

[cashogy_reborn]

How about this for why those 8k thermal dets. Arenas - thermal det requires absolutely zero setup, so you take three pyros and a healer the three pyro HO charge in pop battle focus (translation?) then drop three TD on a target, that's what, how much instant damage? plus since TD has a delay they can drop rails right near the TD detonation, that's like how much instant dps? I mean really at least smash has the decency of being able to side step, and cant be timed together with other abilities.

 

There is enough class stacking in this game, don't need more. there are dozens of ideas floating around the forums on how to bring pyro and AP viability up to par, without 8k TD.

 

Basically I think your too suck on 1.7 to see all the other possibilities for the spec, pyro needs a redesign mechanically to that its dots sync, we can all agree on this. BW will not revert to 1.7, we need to move forward

 

You do realize how absurd that argument is right? If you were to do that with the way things are currently, you would still nuke a target. 4k+4k+6K for each PT, which is ~42k damage. Of course they would all need to crit in order to pull that off. Not every attack does maximum damage every time.

 

And LOL that you think you can "side step" smash. It can be queued before the warrior even finishes their leap animation, and will go off immediately. Good luck avoiding that.

 

 

 

Why do you think nobody stacks PTs right now? By your logic they would be devastating with focus fire.

[Zoom_VI]

for the record, setup for PFT is 4.5 seconds, only 50% more than smash via 3 second crush dot. The real kicker is the fact that it's channeled.

 

you can also use immolate at the very end of the channel for 5-7k burst along with the last tick of PFT

[Zoom_VI]

You do realize how absurd that argument is right? If you were to do that with the way things are currently, you would still nuke a target. 4k+4k+6K for each PT, which is ~42k damage. Of course they would all need to crit in order to pull that off. Not every attack does maximum damage every time.

 

And LOL that you think you can "side step" smash. It can be queued before the warrior even finishes their leap animation, and will go off immediately. Good luck avoiding that.

 

 

 

Why do you think nobody stacks PTs right now? By your logic they would be devastating with focus fire.

 

you can side step with htl, because the warrior still has to finish the leap animation for smash comes

 

wait, your buffed TD now only does 4k crits? this is theorycrafting your suggestion. Also notice I included battlefocus whichs vastly increases gettings those crits

Edited August 29, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[cashogy_reborn]

you can side step with htl, because the warrior still has to finish the leap animation for smash comes

 

Good luck with that. This is entirely irrelevant however.

[Zoom_VI]

Good luck with that. This is entirely irrelevant however.

 

Eh, ive done it, maybe its a fps or lag thing? But we are degressing anyway

[cashogy_reborn]

Eh, ive done it, maybe its a fps or lag thing? But we are degressing anyway

 

Yes Ive also side stepped smash, the smasher just needs to be bad.

 

And yes its massively digressing.

 

Thermal Det. Needs to be fixed.

[Zoom_VI]

Yes Ive also side stepped smash, the smasher just needs to be bad.

 

And yes its massively digressing.

 

Thermal Det. Needs to be fixed.

 

Exactly its dot needs to synergize with the rest of the spec, like every other 36 pt talent in the game does, pyro needs some mechanic that rewards having all dots on target

[cashogy_reborn]

Exactly its dot needs to synergize with the rest of the spec, like every other 36 pt talent in the game does, pyro needs some mechanic that rewards having all dots on target

 

This is exactly how we got into this mess..... it doesnt need more synergy with the rest of the spec.

 

It was 100% fine the way it was, and needs to be reverted to that state so that the class is not a complete joke.

 

 

 

And Pyro is not a DoT spec. If its going to become a DoT spec, basically the entire tree needs revamping. Because it was designed to be a burst spec, which is what it was until 2.0. Now its some kind of half-breed fail of a tree, because Bioware seemed to think just giving it another DoT would make it a DoT oriented spec.

[Zoom_VI]

This is exactly how we got into this mess..... it doesnt need more synergy with the rest of the spec.

 

It was 100% fine the way it was, and needs to be reverted to that state so that the class is not a complete joke.

 

 

 

And Pyro is not a DoT spec. If its going to become a DoT spec, basically the entire tree needs revamping. Because it was designed to be a burst spec, which is what it was until 2.0. Now its some kind of half-breed fail of a tree, because Bioware seemed to think just giving it another DoT would make it a DoT oriented spec.

 

Basically I think your too suck on 1.7 to see all the other possibilities for the spec, pyro needs a redesign mechanically to that its dots sync, we can all agree on this. BW will not revert to 1.7, we need to move forward

we are in agreement on that. Also even pre 2.0 it was a dot spec, it had a dot cell a dot ability in tree, and a bunch of talents boosting the dots, and the energy regen mechanic required a dot on target, how is that not a dot spec???

Edited August 29, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[DarkSaberMaster]

I'm still trying to figure out how AP is a burst spec when the main attack (PFT) is a channel. I guess I'm not playing the same game as everyone else.

[Zoom_VI]

I'm still trying to figure out how AP is a burst spec when the main attack (PFT) is a channel. I guess I'm not playing the same game as everyone else.

 

By that logic none of the sniper specs are bursty, because their burst requires casting and channeling.

 

Also in addition to PFT they have auto crit HiB which is some gareenteed burst and immolate which also hits hard. Its not a One signle ability burst it chains several heavy hitting abilities together, which except for HiB are completely unmitigatble

Edited August 29, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[Xinika]

Shadows still ignored. Lol. Cool.

[cashogy_reborn]

we are in agreement on that. Also even pre 2.0 it was a dot spec, it had a dot cell a dot ability in tree, and a bunch of talents boosting the dots, and the energy regen mechanic required a dot on target, how is that not a dot spec???

 

Pyro is a single target burst spec. Its where the vast majority of its damage comes from, and it is what the tree is built around. If its going to change it needs a revamp from the bottom up. The DoTs it has need to actually do more than just tickle someone, and TD should be changed to do X% more damage for each fire DoT on the target. And then you need to give it some form of DoT protection so that you arent massively impacted by having your target constantly cleansed (which you are right now).

 

Or, we can undo the change to Thermal Det, which was 100% un-needed in the first place. Biowares motto was apparently "if its not broke, smash it to smithereens". It wasnt broke before, so put it back the way it was.

 

 

You are asking for an entire redesign of the spec into what you perceive its role to be. I am asking for it to be fixed so it can actually do its current role in a competitive manner.

Edited August 29, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[Zoom_VI]

Pyro is a single target burst spec. Its where the vast majority of its damage comes from, and it is what the tree is built around. If its going to change it needs a revamp from the bottom up. The DoTs it has need to actually do more than just tickle someone, and TD should be changed to do X% more damage for each fire DoT on the target. And then you need to give it some form of DoT protection so that you arent massively impacted by having your target constantly cleansed (which you are right now).

 

Or, we can undo the change to Thermal Det, which was 100% un-needed in the first place. Biowares motto was apparently "if its not broke, smash it to smithereens". It wasnt broke before, so put it back the way it was.

 

 

You are asking for an entire redesign of the spec into what you perceive its role to be. I am asking for it to be fixed so it can actually do its current role in a competitive manner.

 

BW's 2.0 changes already show that they are sending it into the dot spec. And people did complian about 1.7 TD, for starters it was terrible at pve not enough, and people in both pvp and pve complained about the fact that its the only 36 pt ability that has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the spec.

 

TD needs synergy and it needs a better reason to take, turning it into a "click here for rng burst" is not a set forward.

 

Also you CANNOT revert pyro to 1.7 burst output anymore, the only reasons 1.7 pyro was even remotely balance was because of the spec's squishiness and lack of mobility. Now pyro has HO for mobility, and BW is giving us a survivability upgrade. It would be retardedly OP

[cashogy_reborn]

BW's 2.0 changes already show that they are sending it into the dot spec. And people did complian about 1.7 TD, for starters it was terrible at pve not enough, and people in both pvp and pve complained about the fact that its the only 36 pt ability that has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the spec.

 

TD needs synergy and it needs a better reason to take, turning it into a "click here for rng burst" is not a set forward.

 

Also you CANNOT revert pyro to 1.7 burst output anymore, the only reasons 1.7 pyro was even remotely balance was because of the spec's squishiness and lack of mobility. Now pyro has HO for mobility, and BW is giving us a survivability upgrade. It would be retardedly OP

 

Then it needs to actually be redesigned. This is what I would like to see if Pyro is to be made into a true DoT oriented spec:

 

- CGC damage increased 100% (basically revert the 2.0 nerf)

- A talent that refunds 8 heat if one of your DoTs are cleansed. Give this an internal cooldown of 6-9s. Replace "Gyroscopic Alignments" talent with this new talent.

- Thermal Det goes back to being singe application of damage. Give it the same base damage it currently has (so ~5.5-6k base crits), but for every Fire DoT you have on your target, damage is increased 10% (so w/ 2 DoTs youd see 6.5-7k crits)

- Fix the bug where you cannot apply CGC w/ basic ranged attacks while you currently have a CGC DoT on another target (very, very annoying when switching targets)

- For Merc: Make Missile Blast apply the CGC DoT to all targets it hits (so up to 3)

- For Merc (general fix): Reduce the heat cost of Fusion Missile to 16, make the Firebug Talent affect it

- Change "Rapid Venting" talent to "crits w/ fire DoTs reduce the active cooldown of Vent Heat and TSO by X seconds". Keep the alacrity I guess, I dont really see the point of it in that talent tho.

- For Merc: Remove "Jet Rebounder" talent; replace with "Increases the damage dealt by Fusion Missile by 10/20%. In addition, using Fusion Missile will cause your next Thermal Detonator to automatically crit.

- Add Death From Above to the "Rain of Fire" talent.

 

Theres a DoT spec. Youre DoT damage is actually going to hurt someone, having your DoTs constantly cleansed in PvP is not just going to equal wasted GCDs re-applying them. The 36pt talent directly benefits from the application of your DoTs. Basically all of your damage is amplified/benefits from DoT application.

 

Just had another idea about how Thermal Det could work in a DoT spec. Make it a fast ticking DoT (3 ticks over 3s), and have it deal a base of like 3-3.5k over the duration, but increase the damage by 10% per DoT on the target. Could potentially be a very big DoT.

Edited August 29, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[foxmob]

Well first immolate (instant) crits for 7k now on pts, and the 90% snare on PFT makes it easier to keep enemies in the cone, plus its elemental so it shreds tanks just as well too (something smash can't do!). In fact there are several arena teams on the pts that stack AP PT with a hybrid Ap/shield tank, and do considerably well

 

yes. I've heard about the 3 BH cleave thing. that's a highly specialize comp though, isn't it? specifically to counter smash happy comps? anyway, I still don't see how that addresses the fundamental problem of catching ppl in a full PTF. 90% would be great if just about everyone couldn't break it (e.g., hold the line) or stun/mezz. also, if you want to pop overrides before PTF so you don't get punted to break up the channel...it forces an animation delay. yeah. what a pain in the *** that is. my target gets a good 4-5m of separation from me just because of that, and I'm afraid to pop it on the move and interrupt my own PFT (luls).

Edited August 29, 2013 by foxmob

[foxmob]

for the record, setup for PFT is 4.5 seconds, only 50% more than smash via 3 second crush dot. The real kicker is the fact that it's channeled.

 

crush is a secondary method to build stacks. the first method is instant. the only setup is an off cd buff + leap + smash. then immediately force crush, and when the second smash comes off cd, you'll have full stacks again to use with oblit. the setup (or lack thereof) isn't remotely comparable.

 

now if you're going to get max dmg on PTF, you have to add a 4th attack, the bleed on target (which makes a follow-up RP + rail devastating...assuming you can get through a full PTF with missiles firing).

 

imo, AP is killer...on a target dummy...or one of those reg WZ healing sages who doesn't know enough to move. then the burst is phenomenal. you'd have to be ignored in melee range or facing really dumb opponents to pull that off in a pvp situation. other than that, it's worse than combat: very situational and a lot of luck. smash...you can maximize pretty much every time. PTF may be avail every 12s, but the full tick success rate is pretty dismal by comparison. I burn stuns like crazy just to have a shot at catching ppl in it.