Sage vs juggernaut or marauder

[warstory]

Lets be honest here how many of you melee lose to a sage 1 v 1. On my melee toons I have absolutely no fear of a sage by themselves.

 

Who here is losing to a sage ? And do you think there is even anything they can do to beat you?

[MidichIorian]

A warrior/knight really shouldnt lose to a DPS speced sorc/sage of equal skill and if they do it's because the enviroment is extremely in favor of the sorc/sage. The latter only applies to like two very specific spots across all warzones and as a sage/sorc you can't be hanging back there at all times.

 

A heal speced sage/sorc might on the other hand have a decent shot at wearing them out and winning. Isnt that kind of messed up? Then again, if you spend time dueling people instead of healing in warzones you're not much of a healer so it's a lose-lose scenario.

Edited August 27, 2013 by MidichIorian

[sponym]

it is really up to the player skills - with my guardian I love to kill sorcerers especially when they dont know how to fight against melee

[Psirebral]

Here are some videos for reference

 

 

 

It comes down to the ability to kite and keep distance.

[Cretinus]

it is really up to the player skills - with my guardian I love to kill sorcerers especially when they dont know how to fight against melee

 

If you get killed by a sorc on a guardian, then that's not because this sorc knows how to fight against melees, but rather because you need to l2p.

[AngusFTW]

I play both sentinel/mara/sorc/sage quite alot (the 2 main classes i play in this game, sent being my first and main) and it really depends on the player behind the class. Alot of sages are facetanking baddies that cant kite to save themselves those are free kills to a sent this is where your idea comes from.

 

When it comes down to 1v1 with players that have a rough idea alot of it comes down to spec. I'd say that a good sage playing full balance would do extremely well in 1v1s against warrior classes due to the spammable root, HOWEVER i'd say this isn't the most efficient spec to play in wz environment overall since the hybrids have way better force management and higher burst.

 

Saying that the hybrids (either tk heavy or balance heavy) arent bad either if you're good at kiting and don't face tank (also it depends if u spec for more dps or more control in the case of tk heavy). Plus don't forget you can heal to full! :rak_04:. Full tks are so extremely easy to shutdown without team support though so if you are playing that and you get a smash or 2 going after you with no support from your team you are going to have a bad time.

Edited August 27, 2013 by AngusFTW

[HexDecimalUK]

The problem is that Maras can snare the sorc on the spot and just cut them to bits in no time at all they litterally force you to swap shots with them and thats a contest a sorc will never win. Yes the sorc can use CCs but what good is that when the sorc cant move between casts or at all? in the duels linked above YES the sorc completely sucks and im not even a good sorc myself but on thew other hand the mara isnt even using his snares which is Odd because the duel would be over in seconds

[MidichIorian]

I play both sentinel/mara/sorc/sage quite alot (the 2 main classes i play in this game, sent being my first and main) and it really depends on the player behind the class. Alot of sages are facetanking baddies that cant kite to save themselves those are free kills to a sent this is where your idea comes from.

 

When it comes down to 1v1 with players that have a rough idea alot of it comes down to spec. I'd say that a good sage playing full balance would do extremely well in 1v1s against warrior classes due to the spammable root, HOWEVER i'd say this isn't the most efficient spec to play in wz environment overall since the hybrids have way better force management and higher burst.

 

Saying that the hybrids (either tk heavy or balance heavy) arent bad either if you're good at kiting and don't face tank (also it depends if u spec for more dps or more control in the case of tk heavy). Plus don't forget you can heal to full! :rak_04:. Full tks are so extremely easy to shutdown without team support though so if you are playing that and you get a smash or 2 going after you with no support from your team you are going to have a bad time.

That! The main problem with sage/sorc is that the duel spec isnt optimal in warzones.

 

And to PSI, no one has argued that a sage/sorc can't beat a warrior/knight in a duel outside warzones. The problem is just that when it happens in warzones you have to be in a good place, have force and all the few helpful abilties we have off CD. As a sent/mara you're able to start with 50 % of abilties, if not all, on CD and still be able to put up a fight.

[MusicRider]

I tend to use the following built for duelling with fairly OK success:

http://www.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/jedi-sage/19/?build=230010210000000000000000000000000001000000000000000000000000000003020322013120010122032002120100&ver=20

 

But when it comes to WZs I usually employ the tactic of evading long for either

a) opponent gives up

b) team switches focus to my pursuer and this is only time I will say that a sage can make someone pay for attacking him by leading him in areas where he is isolated.

[Laforet]

Aside the "heal to full parodies" i think a well played madness sage is a beast in 1v1.

 

Unfortunately game balance has nothing to do with duels.

 

You know another class whos a beast in 1v1? Concealment operative, another highly efficient group PvP class... NOT.

 

IMO well played balance > warriors.

 

I also think the devs "lack of perception" to class imbalance has a lot to do with 1v1. They prolly have some fun 1v1s in the studio and the dev that mains balance sage is prolly winning a lot of them if hes competent.

 

Do you think its a coincidence that the best "duelist" specs in the game are underpowered in group PvP?

- Concealment

- Deception

- Madness

 

Are great in duels but suck in group / organized PvP.

 

Warriors are solid in duels but they will be clearly beaten by well played ranged / stealth classes. On the other hand, they have the best specs for group / organized PvP.

 

Theres a fact we HAVE TO acknoledge is that THIS GAME IS RUN BY CASUAL / SCRUB PLAYERS, and casual / scrub players do think duels are a big deal.

 

Hardcore players duel, they think duels are fun but they know its not that big of a deal.

 

See how Swifty fans (casual scrubs) and Swifty himself thinks that duels are a big deal in WoW (they arent) and how the fanbase of more advanced players Azael / Cdew / Hydra rarely asks them to engage in duel activities and, when they do engage, its always with a tongue in cheek mood.

 

=(

Edited August 27, 2013 by Laforet

[cycao]

A skilled balance/madness sage/sorc can be lethal in 1v1.

[Treblt]

lol, a sage/sorc DPS of equal skill to a jugg/mara should win in a duel nearly every time. Positioning, and LoS my friends.

You are a kiting class, not "stand and be raped class".

[AdmiralParmesan]

lol, a sage/sorc DPS of equal skill to a jugg/mara should win in a duel nearly every time. Positioning, and LoS my friends.

You are a kiting class, not "stand and be raped class".

 

Every sorc/sage has heard this a thousand times. Anytime someone complains as a sorc its usually one of the first things you hear someone say "lol dun facetank noob"

 

Fact is you need to cast to win and with the upkeep time of a smash marauder you will be stuck in melee range the majority of the fight. The smash mara has 3 slows (only one can be purged) and two roots/gap (obliterate of course breaking roots) closures. I'm not saying it is impossible to win but in the limited area of a duel your chances drop significantly. When you eventually earn the chance to actually cast and deal some damage both jugg and mara have the defensive cooldowns to mitigate what you can do to them before they are in melee range.

 

I would say the matchup is 9:1 in the smash maras favor against a sorc, and 7:3 in the smash juggs favor. Unbeatable? No, but not in your favor. Madness simply got too nerfed in 2.0 while other classes are more mobile now than ever. Of course your odds are a lot better if the terrain is to your advantage.

Edited August 27, 2013 by AdmiralParmesan

[AngusFTW]

Zealous Leap/obliterate only has a 10m range

You should never stand that close when fighting smasher as a sage. You can eliminate this unbeatable "2nd gap closer" by actually positioning sensibly.

So the 2 gap closer argument is not valid.

next.

Edited August 27, 2013 by AngusFTW

[AdmiralParmesan]

Zealous Leap/obliterate only has a 10m range

You should never stand that close when fighting smasher as a sage. You can eliminate this unbeatable "2nd gap closer" by actually positioning sensibly.

So the 2 gap closer argument is not valid.

next.

 

Please do tell how some is supposed to avoid being in melee range at all times?

 

The 10 meter range on a gap closer that breaks roots is valid when smash has access to so many slows. The sorc knockback only puts people at about a 10 meter range and is only up-gradable with a root which obliterate counters quite proficiently.

Edited August 27, 2013 by AdmiralParmesan

[Treblt]

Every sorc/sage has heard this a thousand times. Anytime someone complains as a sorc its usually one of the first things you hear someone say "lol dun facetank noob"

 

Fact is you need to cast to win and with the upkeep time of a smash marauder you will be stuck in melee range the majority of the fight. The smash mara has 3 slows (only one can be purged) and two roots/gap (obliterate of course breaking roots) closures. I'm not saying it is impossible to win but in the limited area of a duel your chances drop significantly. When you eventually earn the chance to actually cast and deal some damage both jugg and mara have the defensive cooldowns to mitigate what you can do to them before they are in melee range.

 

I would say the matchup is 9:1 in the smash maras favor against a sorc, and 7:3 in the smash juggs favor. Unbeatable? No, but not in your favor. Madness simply got too nerfed in 2.0 while other classes are more mobile now than ever.

 

no no no. Madness did not get nerfed. Smash still req 10m for that second Gap closer. Maybe its because I've played all 3 of the mentioned classes at a high level for a long time, and therefore know nearly every trick to countering each of them and their individual specs but you can definitely avoid a large amount of smash's damage simply cycling madness' kiting tools and realistically, practically only killing through dot's/very limited casting.

 

The only spec that is legitimately privy to smash with any real amount should be lightning spec as it is for sure turret spec.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Treblt

[AdmiralParmesan]

no no no. Madness did not get nerfed. Smash still req 10m for that second Gap closer. Maybe its because I've played all 3 of the mentioned classes at a high level for a long time, and therefore know nearly every trick to countering each of them and their individual specs but you can definitely avoid a large amount of smash's damage simply cycling madness' kiting tools and realistically, practically only killing through dot's/very limited casting.

 

No instant whirlwind bro

[warstory]

And what about lightning spec?

[SEANeD]

A madness sorc can beat 90% of warriors. They have just enough utilities to stay at bay and will only lose to people that actually know how to melee dps and not stand there and click buttons.

[Treblt]

No instant whirlwind bro

 

You don't NEED insta WW to win a duel.

 

Once white barred - Polarity Shift WW Make Distance into:

 

HC LS -> Deathfield (Only real "burst" you're going to be able to setup while kiting, make use of it while they're immobilized) -> Root at leap ->sprint ->Slow + apply dots, next leap KB + fish for Wrath proc (They will Obl here), Stun, Sprint (if not up yet, run and keep slowed, if closer than 10m + already used Obl before CD reset use root), use CD wrath when possible.

[SEANeD]

Every sorc/sage has heard this a thousand times. Anytime someone complains as a sorc its usually one of the first things you hear someone say "lol dun facetank noob"

 

Fact is you need to cast to win and with the upkeep time of a smash marauder you will be stuck in melee range the majority of the fight. The smash mara has 3 slows (only one can be purged) and two roots/gap (obliterate of course breaking roots) closures. I'm not saying it is impossible to win but in the limited area of a duel your chances drop significantly. When you eventually earn the chance to actually cast and deal some damage both jugg and mara have the defensive cooldowns to mitigate what you can do to them before they are in melee range.

 

I would say the matchup is 9:1 in the smash maras favor against a sorc, and 7:3 in the smash juggs favor. Unbeatable? No, but not in your favor. Madness simply got too nerfed in 2.0 while other classes are more mobile now than ever. Of course your odds are a lot better if the terrain is to your advantage.

All of this is just silly. Madness is better for 1v1 now than it ever was. If I get 3 dots on with deathmark (which isn't too hard to do) I now have a barrier and buffs to dots in my tree and I can just barrier while I get heals and they die.

[Treblt]

All of this is just silly. Madness is better for 1v1 now than it ever was. If I get 3 dots on with deathmark (which isn't too hard to do) I now have a barrier and buffs to dots in my tree and I can just barrier while I get heals and they die.

 

Exactly, and really it shouldn't ever get so bad that as madness you NEED to barrier a mara/jugg. Maybe a jugg, if they do get off a good push + damage setup on you, but even then...

[islander]

Sages always win, because they can heal to full. I tremble when I face sages now.

[warstory]

Ok I will drop it balance can kite because if creeping terror. Lightning has that root too BUT it comes from chain lightning and as will all know or those who are good enough to know how to shut it down u can go a entire fight without getting off a cast. Plus u have to get that proc and time your chain lightning.

 

No cast = no proc = no kiting.

[AngusFTW]

Ok I will drop it balance can kite because if creeping terror. Lightning has that root too BUT it comes from chain lightning and as will all know or those who are good enough to know how to shut it down u can go a entire fight without getting off a cast. Plus u have to get that proc and time your chain lightning.

 

No cast = no proc = no kiting.

It is quite weak in 1v1 lightning really only excels when you have proper team support. In a 1v1 you'd be lucky to get a cast off against a good player.