How much worse are Sage healers than Ops healers in PvP?

[RougeBeaver]

People placing just a little bit too much importance on the scoreboard.

 

That is all.

[gblXsw]

People placing just a little bit too much importance on the scoreboard.

 

That is all.

 

I disagree, it's not about the scoreboard (at least not anymore): Sage and Sorc are simply easier to kill and in an Arena there's no coming back from that.

[KamujinKravshera]

Sages have, force left, force speed, mind snap, force slow, force pull etc etc. I think you missed the point. Without their healing they are pretty squishy customers. I personally never lacked for putting down scoundrels. But that's just me.

 

Force Lift = Interupted easily

Force Speed = Very good but worse than roll

Mind Snap = LOL, doesn't work against instants and long cooldown. At best buys you 1 GCD. Usually irrelevant.

Force Slow = You're snared too and you're not kiting 3 people. Yes, force speed will open distance, but there are an endless number of ways this distance can be closed. Force speed is used to LoS people, not kite unless you are dueling.

Force Pull = Most useful for saving others, not yourself. If you have to pull the tank to you, you have problems that this ability is not going to solve.

 

Honestly, your list is the list someone would make if they were thinking about duels, not 4v4.

 

I digress. It's more than relevant to know your force mitigation with respect to group size. The cost of force is ultimately the same whether you are healing a team of 4 or 8. The only thing greater with the sages AOE is the energy potential. In that sense Salvation has much greater potential than Rep Nanotech.

 

 

So exactly that. A sage spends more force cost on bubble healz for a group of 8 than a group of 4. That's what.

There are already other responses in this thread that detail why this is wrong. Suffice it to say, I agree with them.

 

And the same goes for you. Accept I didn't offer opinions. I merely pointed out facts regarding force cost and group size. And you still didn't demonstrate how a sage is a worse healer for a group of 4 than with a group of 8?

It's been demonstrated, you just either can't see it or are simply digging your heals in. Either way, there is no point repeating the arguments. They are there. Accept them or don't. You're the one making the exceptional claim. I am simply explaining something that is widely recognized.

[Aesculapiae]

Is there actually a Riddle some where in your comment? And yes so talented you just had to mention otherwise I simply wouldn't believe you. Huh?

 

Well I don't know about your experiences with internet arguments, but the most commonly used way to win an argument is stating that the other guy is a n00b. While I don't claim to be the best or anything, I'd at least like to make clear that I know what I'm doing.

 

As for the riddle, it is: how can you claim that Scoundrel/Operative are not vastly superior at PvP healing to Sage/Sorcerer?

 

I think you misconstrued what I mentioned earlier regarding force cost. My argument was never to imply or insinuate that one class was better than the other class. If that's how you understood it, let me clarify. I am not saying in any way sages are better than scoundrels. There feel better?

 

No, you haven't said Sages > Scoundrel. But what you are implying or insinuating here is that both are on a similar level. The reality is that they're a completely different dimension in terms of healing effectiveness as others have pointed out in this thread.

 

Provided you mitigate noble sacrifices with your GCD's, you should never fall below 75% force or health. I have seen sages hit near 2 million healz. They seem to never suffer from sapped force regeneration.

 

Uhhuh, tell me more wise master. I have seen Operatives hit over 4 million heals - not that it is relevant, since we are talking about HPS here.

 

Now what if one or more players on the opposing team decide that the freecasting Sage needs to die? I dunno about you, but I don't always have time to Noble Sacrifice. Nor do I have over 75% hp all the time while someone's bashing on me.

 

Hammer shot is not interruptible. Bacta infusion isn't interruptible, Tp isn't interruptible and so on.

 

Hammer shot, lol, are you for real? Bacta is on a 17sec cooldown, often needs to be used to keep someone up to begin with. Trauma Probe is nice, but works only on a single target where SRM can be held up on 8 targets at the same time, has similar HPS when stacked twice, and doesn't require the target to get hit for a heal to proc.

 

First off who would actually spam medical prob without Field Triage?

 

The guy that has a choice between standing there eating out of his nose because his Advanced Medical Probe got interrupted, or casting a few Medical Probes without Field Triage to stay alive?

 

Secondly Supercharge Cell on Cool down? Ahum, come on you know better. SC remains on a cool down while it's active as a proc. And to reactivate it takes only 30 stacks of charge. So you are never at a point where you stop healing waiting for SC to come off cool down.

 

Missing the point yet again, you don't always have 30 stacks ready to go.. especially if some **** is doing his best to interrupt every Medical Probe you cast.

 

Thirdly stop hurting my mando feelings. Not cool man. NOT COOL!

 

Truth hurts.

 

Well alright. You are one mighty confident scoundrel. All I can say is I personally wouldn't fret taking my sage against a scoundrel or operative. Nor my commando for that matter. But hey I can't speak for you and the other scoundrels out there. For me personally I don't see you guys having an advantage.

 

Let's agree to disagree yes?

 

I consider myself a Sage primarily, only reason I ever rolled a Scoundrel was that it was needed for my guild's rated team. They're that good. Now if the Sages or Commandos became remotely comparable to Scoundrels in PvP.. I would go to one of them in a heartbeat.

 

Anyway, the truth will hit you - and hard - when arenas come out and you start to play a bit more competitively.

[sithBracer]

I really appreciate everyone's contributions in this thread I feel like I'm learning a lot. I think I will give a smuggler or IA a go. I already have a Sith Inquis at 50 from when he game was first released, so if I miss that playstyle too much that's always an option.

 

Now I just have to decide whether I want to be republic or empire

 

Since everyone is in a heated debate about sorcs vs ops, I'll respond to you directly.

 

Grats, you made a fine choice and I am sure you will enjoy your character (and I would say the same no matter what class you chose). Have fun, enjoy the game and don't worry about what the FotM (flavor of the month in case you didn't know) is because bioware can buff or nerf any character whenever they wish, just like they did to the sorc healer a while ago and just like they did to the smasher recently (still overpowered though). It's a game and if you are having fun, then you are doing it the right way. Enjoy yourself.

 

And according to many, IA storyling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> smuggler storyline.

Edited August 23, 2013 by sithBracer

[Argencia]

So a 55 sage and a 55 scoundrel will feel a noticeable difference in survivability and healing throughput even in a pug warzone? Sages die often even against uncoordinated teams?

[sithBracer]

So a 55 sage and a 55 scoundrel will feel a noticeable difference in survivability and healing throughput even in a pug warzone? Sages die often even against uncoordinated teams?

 

Both will die if you have a bad team (regardless of what the operative haters say) and the other team is good. Here is an example: http://www.twitch.tv/melynmeron/c/2555258

 

He is a pretty good op healer but as you can see dies a good number of times when he faces a well coordinated team.

 

In arena's since there isn't a lot of space to run and it's a simple 4 v 4 with no objective, the other team's dps will probably just concentrate on the healer while mezzing the tank (to get healer away from tank's guard) or something similar. Ops can survive better because of the roll, vanish and mobile healing. Sorcs are squishy and are stuck in place while healing and have only 1 real escape (which can be force leapt to very easily).

[Targarion]

Don't take it personally, but the reason why you're able to kill scoundrels is not that you have loads of understanding or patience, but rather that you're on a smasher.

Scoundrel healers and warries are balanced against each other. Problem is that they're both OP compared to the rest.

No offence taking. I simply stating that scoundrels can be killed. However for the sake of this discussion. I pretty much can kill a scoundrel or an operative on any dps class I have played on: Sage, gunslinger, commando, and smasher.

 

I won't warries.

[Ghost_Spectre]

How? A Sorc can heal up to 8 people efficiently, but I don't see how less people in a group diminishes their healing effectiveness.

 

That's not what I was referring to. Their usefulness in the new arenas will last 2 to 3 GCDs. Not enough time for you to get off one puddle unless you've crit with your channeled healing ability and drop an instant puddle. However, that's interruptible, unless you've popped Polarity Shift or Mental Alacrity. At which point you can be stunned or CC'd stopping you. You could break it with your CC breaker and continue healing until someone drops a flash bang on your or you're WW.

 

Then of course, you can break that one with your Force Barrier, and then try to continue healing only to be CC’d or hit with a soft stun if your resolve bar isn’t full (which we know is quite possible). Couple all that together, you can probably last 4 to 5 GCDs. However, I will point out while you are doing that, you've not healed one person but yourself in trying to keep from being killed and controlled.

 

So how does that work with your effectiveness, usefulness, and utility now? In an answer, it does not. You are taken out of the fight unable to fulfill your role within your team. Now if it were an Operative or Scoundrel healer, they can continue doing what they do because they have better tools to use and the mobility the Sorcerer & Sage healers do not. As of right now, these two ACs are the weakest link on the team in an arena warzone. Anyone who brings one on their team will find themselves a man down in the first minute of the game. Which means…almost certain defeat when your healer is dead.

[Targarion]

Force Lift = Interupted easily

Force Speed = Very good but worse than roll

Mind Snap = LOL, doesn't work against instants and long cooldown. At best buys you 1 GCD. Usually irrelevant.

Force Slow = You're snared too and you're not kiting 3 people. Yes, force speed will open distance, but there are an endless number of ways this distance can be closed. Force speed is used to LoS people, not kite unless you are dueling.

Force Pull = Most useful for saving others, not yourself. If you have to pull the tank to you, you have problems that this ability is not going to solve.

 

Really we are going to play this game? Mmkay.

 

Scamper = penalizes you for 25 Energy. Very costly. Limits your regeneration rate. Cannot keep distance open indefinitely. Exposes the healer out of cover. Great for smashers

 

Flash bang= great stun lock, but horrible 1 min cool down time.

 

Kick or Debilitate = great stun but 50 second cool down time. Really can only be used once per fight.

 

Hidden strike or back blast = only an effective stun if you spec into the concealment or scrapper tree. Sorry healers.

 

Sleep dart = really good CC. Not a knock on it, but can only be used twice per player.

 

So again, reiterate my point, ever class has it's strength and weaknesses. And if one understands the mechanics of them. Can easily exploit or defend against them.

 

Honestly, your list is the list someone would make if they were thinking about duels, not 4v4.

Any class will go down when focused hard by dps.

 

 

There are already other responses in this thread that detail why this is wrong. Suffice it to say, I agree with them

Really? care to point where? I read a lot of responses, but none really addressed why my point is wrong. A lot of people seem to think I am saying that bubble healing is bad? Um nope. Or that I am saying sages are better than scoundrels. Nope.

 

It's been demonstrated, you just either can't see it or are simply digging your heals in. Either way, there is no point repeating the arguments. They are there. Accept them or don't. You're the one making the exceptional claim. I am simply explaining something that is widely recognized.

Well they are doing about as good a job as you are. And that's not saying much. I think you believe your argument looks good on paper, but when arena's open, I am interested to see how many people break with convention and actually think outside the box and prove the critics wrong. I know I will.

 

You see with PVP you are not fighting an NPC, you are fighting people just as determined as you to win. They are not going to let you scamper away, or mez them. Skilled players know all your trick and know how to out maneuver you just as good as you to them. If people want to roll scoundrels because they think that's going to make them better players. That's their prerogative.

[sithBracer]

That's not what I was referring to. Their usefulness in the new arenas will last 2 to 3 GCDs. Not enough time for you to get off one puddle unless you've crit with your channeled healing ability and drop an instant puddle. However, that's interruptible, unless you've popped Polarity Shift or Mental Alacrity. At which point you can be stunned or CC'd stopping you. You could break it with your CC breaker and continue healing until someone drops a flash bang on your or you're WW.

 

Then of course, you can break that one with your Force Barrier, and then try to continue healing only to be CC’d or hit with a soft stun if your resolve bar isn’t full (which we know is quite possible). Couple all that together, you can probably last 4 to 5 GCDs. However, I will point out while you are doing that, you've not healed one person but yourself in trying to keep from being killed and controlled.

 

So how does that work with your effectiveness, usefulness, and utility now? In an answer, it does not. You are taken out of the fight unable to fulfill your role within your team. Now if it were an Operative or Scoundrel healer, they can continue doing what they do because they have better tools to use and the mobility the Sorcerer & Sage healers do not. As of right now, these two ACs are the weakest link on the team in an arena warzone. Anyone who brings one on their team will find themselves a man down in the first minute of the game. Which means…almost certain defeat when your healer is dead.

 

And just to point out to all the "NERF OPS TO SAVE ARENAS" idiots, this problem is that sorcs and mercs are just not fit for arena combat rather than ops just being to strong. As he points out, sorcs cannot survive more than 1 minute and during that 1 minute they are not helping anyone.

[sanchito]

...

I'm curious, has anyone tried running a stun bubble healing hybrid, along the lines of this? That would solve the Force management issue and Salvation|Revivification isn't as good in Arenas as it is in Warzones. Then again, anything less than a full healing spec will only widen the HPS gap even further...

 

I don't think this would work; telekinetic effusion was changed to only reduce the force cost of attacks in 2.0

[KamujinKravshera]

...

 

I recognize that you're not going to admit that you're wrong. I also recognize that just about everyone else here can see that you're wrong. So just keep digging your heals in and refusing the concede the obvious.

[Targarion]

Well I don't know about your experiences with internet arguments, but the most commonly used way to win an argument is stating that the other guy is a n00b. While I don't claim to be the best or anything, I'd at least like to make clear that I know what I'm doing.

Lol. Well those people we shan't take seriously, because we both know an ad-hominem is the last resort for some one losing an argument.

 

Whether or not you think of yourself as gifted, is unimportant to me. The context of your argument is.

 

As for the riddle, it is: how can you claim that Scoundrel/Operative are not vastly superior at PvP healing to Sage/Sorcerer?

I can claim it based on my experience playing against them. Are you familiar with the difference between opinion and fact? Allow me to reiterate.

 

To say Scoundrels are "vastly" superior to sages is an OPINION

 

To say how well a class is played depends on the players ability and skill is a FACT

 

To say you will automatically win because you play a scoundrel is an OPINION

 

To say some classes will be harder to play against in a rank setting is a FACT

 

To say commando suck is an OPINION

 

To say, most experience commando healers will be able to manage their regeneration rate is a FACT.

 

To say the only healer class who will win in a wz or scoundrels and operatives is an OPINION

 

To say scoundrels and operatives will be the healer of choice for some people would be a FACT.

 

To say you are not going to heal as effectively because you are on a sage is an OPINION

 

To say if any healer is focused hard by two or more dps will eventually die is a FACT

 

Now that we established the difference between opinions and fact. Try to keep that in mind. Please and thanks.

 

No, you haven't said Sages > Scoundrel. But what you are implying or insinuating here is that both are on a similar level. The reality is that they're a completely different dimension in terms of healing effectiveness as others have pointed out in this thread.

Implying that they are on par isn't saying one is more superior than the other. And your view on commando's is just silly.

 

Uhhuh, tell me more wise master. I have seen Operatives hit over 4 million heals - not that it is relevant, since we are talking about HPS here.

You're right it is irrelevant, because I have seen sage hit 4 million heals too. Albeit only once. But out of the thousands of people who play sages you are so myopic enough to think only a scoundrel has hit that number. When a wz fight turns beastly long. The healing stats become skewed and of course it must also reflect the amount of damage the other team puts out on your team.

 

Now what if one or more players on the opposing team decide that the freecasting Sage needs to die? I dunno about you, but I don't always have time to Noble Sacrifice. Nor do I have over 75% hp all the time while someone's bashing on me.

I don't know about you but if one or more players on the opposing team decide that a kiting scoundrel needs to die? Yup.

 

Hammer shot, lol, are you for real? Bacta is on a 17sec cooldown, often needs to be used to keep someone up to begin with. Trauma Probe is nice, but works only on a single target where SRM can be held up on 8 targets at the same time, has similar HPS when stacked twice, and doesn't require the target to get hit for a heal to proc.

Oh yes I am for realz.. Hammer shot leads to full stack of charge, charge leads to super charge. Super charge plus Kolto bomb leads to kolto shield, kolto bomb also leads to healing bonus with Triage is just awesome.

 

And the great thing about TP is that you can take it off anyone at any time and place it on another player. So your point is moot.

 

The guy that has a choice between standing there eating out of his nose because his Advanced Medical Probe got interrupted, or casting a few Medical Probes without Field Triage to stay alive?

Okay than I would argue that guy isn't making a smart choice.

 

Missing the point yet again, you don't always have 30 stacks ready to go.. especially if some **** is doing his best to interrupt every Medical Probe you cast.

Not missing your point. Just disagreeing with it. Because you don't have 30 stacks of charge ready to go only means you need to do what? That's right. Heal.

 

Truth hurts.

Or in your case. Tickles me with joy.

 

I consider myself a Sage primarily, only reason I ever rolled a Scoundrel was that it was needed for my guild's rated team. They're that good. Now if the Sages or Commandos became remotely comparable to Scoundrels in PvP.. I would go to one of them in a heartbeat.

Good on you. Don't be afraid to break with convention. After all scoundrel healing is uber boring.

 

Anyway, the truth will hit you - and hard - when arenas come out and you start to play a bit more competitively.

Always expect the unexpected. How is that for truism?! Edited August 23, 2013 by Targarion

[Targarion]

I recognize that you're not going to admit that you're wrong. I also recognize that just about everyone else here can see that you're wrong. So just keep digging your heals in and refusing the concede the obvious.

 

I am not going to concede you are right when you have not properly demonstrated why. All you have done is speculated. And that isn't a very convincing argument. Sorry.

[Gondolindhrim]

Force Speed = Very good but worse than roll

You are right about a lot of what you say, but this really isn't true. Roll is really not very useful at all when you're slowed, and can't be used when rooted. Force Speed trumps every slow/root in the game, definitely a better ability in Arenas.

 

No offence taking. I simply stating that scoundrels can be killed. However for the sake of this discussion. I pretty much can kill a scoundrel or an operative on any dps class I have played on: Sage, gunslinger, commando, and smasher.

This really doesn't say anything. I've killed every AC in the game while playing every AC in the game. Bad players are bad, and will die. Even good players will die in regs if their team happens to be worse, really doesn't say anything about class balance at a competitive level.

 

I am not going to concede you are right when you have not properly demonstrated why. All you have done is speculated. And that isn't a very convincing argument. Sorry.

Read my earlier post again, I tried to lay it out clearly there. Other than that, I suggest trying the Arenas out for yourself on the PTS; I've done so and it's quite clear which is the better healing class once you've seen it in practice.

[AdmiralParmesan]

Yeah with the removal of 8v8 ranked the go to healing class will be operative healing simply for there ability to heal on the move and keeping HoT's on half their team in arenas. But if you just plan on pugging warzones which will still have 8 man as well as arenas in the regular queue just play what you want.

 

Don't forget the healing OPs have the best CC out of any healer too.

[KamujinKravshera]

You are right about a lot of what you say, but this really isn't true. Roll is really not very useful at all when you're slowed, and can't be used when rooted. Force Speed trumps every slow/root in the game, definitely a better ability in Arenas.

 

It's debatable. If that's the biggest problem you have with what I've said in this threads, I can live with it.

[ThatGuyToo]

I've always found it humorous with PVP discussion that one heal class is so op and especially that the sage/sorc isn't viable. As someone who plays each healing class and have a sage as my main I see the strengths and weaknesses in each class and cannot find one particularly op. Knowing the class, being able to read situations quickly and being able to play the class well in those various PVP situations make the difference between getting the job done or thinking other classes are op.

 

4v4 may very well play better to the strengths or some classes but each class is very viable. First and foremost it is upon the player to learn how to play their class well in the new situations 4v4 will offer us.

[angrybirdz]

Operative + shield + heal + unable to interrupt = > Sage.

[NogueiraA]

Operative can heal while being focused.

[sithBracer]

Operative can heal while being focused.

 

Right, because no one ever stuns their focus target, they just attack him with the standard attack button and hope all goes well.

[ErikGW]

In 8v8, a sorc can heal himself and his tank a little better, if hes getting help from another healer.

 

An operative is best at keeping people alive when they are almost dead and maintaining a constant slow healing when they arent hurt that bad.

 

Ops are more effective at staying alive under pressure. Sorcs are better at getting out of the pressure and using big heals to make up for it.

 

Which will be better for arenas... probably operative because they can survive better under pressure.

 

But i bet a good sorc healer will be an average op any day.

[Yestreen]

Operative healers are stronger for 4 reasons:

1. better resource management

2. more instant casts

3. more defensive cooldowns

4. their AOE heal is mobile, not stationary.

[snaplemouton]

Operative healers are stronger for 4 reasons:

1. better resource management

2. more instant casts

3. more defensive cooldowns

4. their AOE heal is mobile, not stationary.

 

You are wrong on #3. Operative healer is actually the one with the less defensive cooldown.

It's countered by being able to heal in a much more mobile way.

You didn't take in consideration things that make them less desireable

1. Low burst healing

2. Heal done overtime rather then by chunk. (Which is also a pro against CCs, but the game is very centered around burst rather then overtime)

3. No big OH **** button for allies. (I said big, emergency medpac isn't "big")

4. Shut downed by hard stuns.

 

What sage got better then scoundrel:

1. 2 CC breaker.

2. A reliable gap maker. (Scamper isn't a gap maker against anyone competent enough to slow and disapearing act is very unreliable as it require us to have our dodge with it to remove DoTs and it has a very lengthy cooldown.)

3. Auto crit big heal.

4. Does more healing when left unfocused. (Our energy management as scoundrel make it that if we try to heal with casts, we will be out of energy extremely fast and unable to cast anymore)

5. Rescue

 

Also, the ability to cleanse force effect is unique to sage.

 

I do believe sage healers require a buff. Not to healing or escape tools, but to sheer damage reduction. Their light armor is what hurts them the most.