Plz make tankasins not suck

[Andryah]

Also, what evidence have you provided? All I have seen is you saying that you are doing fine on HM and others are doing fine on NiM. That's not hard evidence of anything. The argument that consistent clears of the content is also hard evidence is just false, as I've discussed earlier. You are free to address my responses directly however, but you haven't. If I'm missing your evidence then please show me.

 

We went through this yesterday. Multiple forum members, beginning at page one of this thread has pointed out that not only is the class capbable.. it's in fact the preferred choice of some guilds to use it for challenging encounters. You choice here is to dismiss those posts.. and declare them all anecdotal and strawmans. If you cannot objectively see the opposing viewpoint as presented.. that's on you. I'm not going to keep repeating and requoting from this thread so that you have things you can nitpick and dismiss to keep the discussion going. You can read as well as I can.. and if you choose to disregard.. that's on you. Spend some quality time going back and re-reading the posts in this thread. I have...... and your constant insistence that anything you disagree with is anecdotal.. is ironic use of strawmaning by you.

 

If you want to agree to disagree.. I'm fine with that too. That is essentially what is being done right now anyway.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

As I have pointed out many times before, you still have not elaborated on how you expect them to avoid this damage if they are not to take it. Through shield or defense? That's RNG and not skill. Through cooldowns? There aren't enough on short enough of a cooldown to avoid it every time guaranteed (remember, some only give extra chance of avoiding, not guaranteeing it). By tank swapping? What if it's another Assassin, he runs into the same issue. By stealthing out? Some poor DPS dies to save the tank. Through some other class' utility? That has nothing to do with the Assassin.

 

I think you just want to argue endlessly and in circular manner. Time for you to use the internet to your advantage. You won't listen to anything I say anyway. There are guilds on the internet that will spoon feed you the tactics of proper use of sin/shadow tanks on the hard content in this MMO.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Andryah

[MillionsKNives]

We went through this yesterday. Multiple forum members, beginning at page one of this thread has pointed out that not only is the class capbable.. it's in fact the preferred choice of some guilds to use it for challenging encounters. You choice here is to dismiss those posts.. and declare them all anecdotal and strawmans. If you cannot objectively see the opposing viewpoint as presented.. that's on you. I'm not going to keep repeating and requoting from this thread so that you have things you can nitpick and dismiss to keep the discussion going. You can read as well as I can.. and if you choose to disregard.. that's on you. Spend some quality time going back and re-reading the posts in this thread. I have...... and your constant insistence that anything you disagree with is anecdotal.. is ironic use of strawmaning by you.

 

If you want to agree to disagree.. I'm fine with that too. That is essentially what is being done right now anyway.

 

I will agree to disagree on the basis that you and I have a completely different understanding on what the definition of anecdotal is.

[MillionsKNives]

I think you just want to argue endlessly and in circular manner. Time for you to use the internet to your advantage. You won't listen to anything I say anyway. There are guilds on the internet that will spoon feed you the tactics of proper use of sin/shadow tanks on the hard content in this MMO.

 

The burden of proof I'm afraid lies with you on this one. You have not provided any form of counter to my example and instead tell me to look it up myself. One cannot argue with supposed evidence that they do not provide.

[Andryah]

The burden of proof I'm afraid lies with you on this one. You have not provided any form of counter to my example and instead tell me to look it up myself. One cannot argue with supposed evidence that they do not provide.

 

No.. it's not.. you know why? Because you need to see it with your own eyes before you will believe it. You need to hear it from people other them myself.. to help you get over your fixation on the word "anecdote". If you can't be bothered.. then you really just don't want to know. I'm offering you a path to more data (free of any association to my name.. which you are biased against).. and you rationalize why it does not apply.

 

At this point.. there is the internet.. and there is a pile of sand. You are free to choose.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Andryah

[MillionsKNives]

No.. it's not.. you know why? Because you need to see it with your own eyes before you will believe it. You need to hear it from people other them myself.. to help you get over your fixation on the word anecdote. If you can't be bothered.. then you really just don't want to know. I'm offering you a path to more data.. and you rationalize why it does not apply.

 

At this point.. there is the internet.. and there is a pile of sand. You are free to choose.

 

You can try to shift the burden of proof as much as you want by poisoning the well, but that does not change where it lies.

 

You have offered no data, and claim it exists, but I must find it.

[Andryah]

You have offered no data, and claim it exists, but I must find it.

 

You are fixated on data... where as what you need is to see with your own eyes.. people doing it.

 

Given how you have ignored literally everything that does not fit your opinion in this thread since it began.... clearly....If I lead you to it.. you will call it anecdotal and ignore it. If you can't be bothered.. fine.. but that's on you.. not me. Help yourself, if you actually even care to.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Andryah

[MillionsKNives]

Given how you have ignored literally everything that does not fit your opinion in this thread since it began.... clearly....If I lead you to it.. you will call it anecdotal and ignore it. If you can't be bothered.. fine.. but that's on you.. not me. Help yourself, if you actually even care to.

 

Do you not like that what I say is accurate, or is it the word I use that upsets you?

[mmjarec]

I understand him very well.

 

Tanks exist to successfully tank bosses until the boss is dps'ed into a dirt nap. A tanks job is to keep the boss off the healers and the dps.. and meat shield is one way.. but not the only way. People who think tanks exist strictly to take damage, IMO have no business playing a sin/shadow tank. Stick to the classic heavy armor static tank if that's the way you want to play. Nothing wrong with that by the way... but the sin/shadow tank is not right for you if you go that route.

 

Unless youve actually tanked nighmare mode your argument have no merit you keep inssting that its balanced just harder and get abilities that make up for the mitigation issue which you havent given any examples

 

People hav business playing whatever class they want despite your assertion its obviously unskilled players that is the problem yet all the objective data that assumes player skill is the same ( see parses) seems to not matter to you even probably bcuz it discounts your primary factor of skill as a factor

 

What are all thes other abilities that somehow make sins equal. Oh you mean the ones that have a short duration on a long cooldown. Some im supposed to rely on ability that is by design unreliable and not always available like jug mitigation is.

 

Keep making the same flawed argument ignoring proof to the contrary

Edited August 23, 2013 by mmjarec
Sp

[mmjarec]

You are fixated on data... where as what you need is to see with your own eyes.. people doing it.

 

Given how you have ignored literally everything that does not fit your opinion in this thread since it began.... clearly....If I lead you to it.. you will call it anecdotal and ignore it. If you can't be bothered.. fine.. but that's on you.. not me. Help yourself, if you actually even care to.

 

A level 55 sin and jug is hardly anecdotal nor is the 20 plus pages of player accounts of problems nor is the numerous parses quoted in this thread. If you want to read the data one parse is on elitist jerks. Waiting on another invalid excuse

[MillionsKNives]

A level 55 sin and jug is hardly anecdotal nor is the 20 plus pages of player accounts of problems nor is the numerous parses quoted in this thread. If you want to read the data one parse is on elitist jerks. Waiting on another invalid excuse

 

Well no, player accounts from both sides are anecdotal no matter how many of them there are. Combat logs however are empirical data.

 

And since we're discussing the issue of death by random chance, a simple live or die parse wouldn't be very useful. Displaying both that the amount of damage caused the tank to die, and that the death was outside the tank and healers' control (within acceptable room for error) is what makes a compelling argument for the legitimacy of the issue. Thankfully, such parses have been provided before (possibly including the one you refer to).

[mmjarec]

Well no, player accounts from both sides are anecdotal no matter how many of them there are. Combat logs however are empirical data.

 

And since we're discussing the issue of death by random chance, a simple live or die parse wouldn't be very useful. Displaying both that the amount of damage caused the tank to die, and that the death was outside the tank and healers' control (within acceptable room for error) is what makes a compelling argument for the legitimacy of the issue. Thankfully, such parses have been provided before (possibly including the one you refer to).

 

Thats why there are many parses out there that are numbers based and not death based you cotinually ignore them and provide no evidence of your own. Who is more beleivable someone who has experienced it or someone who hasnt. Besides what is your big deal against an issue that doesnt even affect you besides giving you something to troll. Once you provide parses equvalent to that of EJ disproving existing parses supporting me you are nothing more than a socipathic troll

[joshohelp]

Not all tank classes play the same or have the same exact tanking roles and such..

 

Each tank spec has it's own playstyle really.

[MillionsKNives]

Thats why there are many parses out there that are numbers based and not death based you cotinually ignore them and provide no evidence of your own. Who is more beleivable someone who has experienced it or someone who hasnt. Besides what is your big deal against an issue that doesnt even affect you besides giving you something to troll. Once you provide parses equvalent to that of EJ disproving existing parses supporting me you are nothing more than a socipathic troll

 

Ease up there skipper, I hope you're not addressing that to me. If you are then I suggest that you take a deep breath and reassess what you think I've claimed, and whether I'm the person you think you're addressing.

[mmjarec]

Still waiting on any evidence to back up your assertions about a class you havent played on a discussion about content you havent done since your credibility is in the gutter or any reason why someone so vehemently opposes a change you know nothing a about and doesnt effect you. I dont go to all your class threads and hijack them with unsibstantiated opinions

[NogueiraA]

Not all tank classes play the same or have the same exact tanking roles and such..

 

Each tank spec has it's own playstyle really.

 

Looking at your sig you only have low level toons. When you reach 55 with your Shadow and Vanguard, come back here to discuss

[Andryah]

Ease up there skipper, I hope you're not addressing that to me. If you are then I suggest that you take a deep breath and reassess what you think I've claimed, and whether I'm the person you think you're addressing.

 

Yeah.... he's so fixed on lashing out.. I think you just got in the way there MK.

 

He contributes nothing constructive to his own thread anymore.. just attacks people.. so I put him on ignore.

 

I give you and some others credit for wanting to at least discuss the topic....even if we don't agree.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Andryah

[mmjarec]

Yeah.... he's so fixed on lashing out.. I think you just got in the way there MK.

 

He contributes nothing constructive to his own thread anymore.. just attacks people.. so I put him on ignore.

 

I give you and some others credit for wanting to at least discuss the topic....even if we don't agree.

 

Yah ive contributed nothing except examples and parses proving my point. And what have you contributed again?

 

You provoke by totoally disregarding the subject and makig it about my inability to play which isnt event a factor on parses and yet you do it again. Ive stated my claim numerous times to your 0. Once again. Creditibilty meet toilet

 

I really dont care what you think or want your worthless input since its beyond indisputable that sins lag behind i wasnt asking for your input i was asking for acknowledgement and a fix from bioware. As much as you seem to want to interject yourself in a situation in which you are not knowledgeable or wanted you have provided nothing other than a diversion

Edited August 23, 2013 by mmjarec
Sp

[MillionsKNives]

Still waiting on any evidence to back up your assertions about a class you havent played on a discussion about content you havent done since your credibility is in the gutter or any reason why someone so vehemently opposes a change you know nothing a about and doesnt effect you. I dont go to all your class threads and hijack them with unsibstantiated opinions

 

*looks around* You can't be talking to me. Would you happen to be in the middle of a stroke at the moment? If so I would suggest that you go see a doctor at once.

 

Again, go back and check who you think that I am. I can guarantee you that I'm not that person, as everything you have just said is wrong.

 

Yeah.... he's so fixed on lashing out.. I think you just got in the way there MK.

 

He contributes nothing constructive to his own thread anymore.. just attacks people.. so I put him on ignore.

 

I give you and some others credit for wanting to at least discuss the topic....even if we don't agree.

 

As much as we've disagreed in this thread, I have to agree with your assessment here. He's doing nothing to help his cause by aimlessly slinging insults at all who at first glance appear to disagree, not even taking the time to make sure he's making any sense whatsoever.

[theUndead]

Yah ive contributed nothing except examples and parses proving my point. And what have you contributed again?

 

You provoke by totoally disregarding the subject and makig it about my inability to play which isnt event a factor on parses and yet you do it again. Ive stated my claim numerous times to your 0. Once again. Creditibilty meet toilet

 

I really dont care what you think or want your worthless input since its beyond indisputable that sins lag behind i wasnt asking for your input i was asking for acknowledgement and a fix from bioware. As much as you seem to want to interject yourself in a situation in which you are not knowledgeable or wanted you have provided nothing other than a diversion

 

So are you telling me that no one is offering any input and the only indispensable proof is your own? I mean I have read this thread since my own responses and it seems to me you just continue to become more hostile to anyone who disagrees with you.

 

It is no longer about how viable Assassin tanks are but rather the contention that your right we are wrong. So your credibility is now invalidated.

[joshohelp]

Looking at your sig you only have low level toons. When you reach 55 with your Shadow and Vanguard, come back here to discuss

 

Hah these are my most recent characters. the older ones that were 50 I deleted a long time ago. But, it still doesn't detract from what I said each tank spec has a different tanking playstyle/ role. Even the mirrored classes for instance assassin/ shadow etc

[AscendentReality]

There is benefits of having a sin tank. Most of the arguments is valid, and I do personally think they deserve a buff. However there is some benefits in carrying one, even in nm progression. While jugs have a few better defensive cooldowns, and one really incredible one in saber reflect. Having extra defensive cooldowns to manage can be beneficial when the boss's damage is spikey and can be anticipated. There are also interesting mechanics that can come with a sin tank, such as not having adds in nm twh (albeit the fight is somewhat of a joke anyways)

 

The point is, it's still viable, could they use a buff, sure. They are most certainly not as desperate as concealment operatives, or deception assassins, which in PvE is just utter trash. Trash beyond trash, the most worthless among trash, no offence, all the power to you if you can clear content even with that handicap.

 

Edit: May I also add, many NM guilds who's had full clears have sin tanks, some sin main tanks. If that isn't enough, from my personal experience in NM mode, the hardest content that was released during the recent operations, would be the un-nerfed NM dreadguards. In which case, drop it like its hoth, the world first on that boss, downed it with a sin tank. It's the same argument people try to throw at marauders and snipers looking at their damage, despite failing to see their own classes have been proven time and time again to be able to DOWN CONTENT. Which is the end goal of any raid.

If your looking for total balance, can I agree on sin tank receiving a few buffs here and there? Ya. Please don't go around and say things like it sucks, or it's not viable. If it's been done, and done repeatedly, it's obviously viable. Just because someone lack the skills to pull it off, doesn't mean it's impossible. It's just like someone who will remain unnamed, claimed, un-nerfed DG to be mathematically impossible only to find it dead to a European guild several days later.

Edited August 24, 2013 by AscendentReality

[Hockaday]

Hah these are my most recent characters. the older ones that were 50 I deleted a long time ago. But, it still doesn't detract from what I said each tank spec has a different tanking playstyle/ role. Even the mirrored classes for instance assassin/ shadow etc

 

Yes...but you totally missed the point. They were right in saying you need to level them. Of course each tank has their own play style, strengths and weaknesses etc. But when a tank brings only weaknesses, or more cons than pros...there is a problem. Dying from RNG is a problem. Having your healers struggle to heal you is a problem (note: this is on the healers here, there is more skill involved healing a Sin, but it seems the gap has spanned).

[mmjarec]

So are you telling me that no one is offering any input and the only indispensable proof is your own? I mean I have read this thread since my own responses and it seems to me you just continue to become more hostile to anyone who disagrees with you.

 

It is no longer about how viable Assassin tanks are but rather the contention that your right we are wrong. So your credibility is now invalidated.

 

Input and evidence are two different things. I didnt start this thread to debAte if they were broke i started it to get a bioware response So far everyone against my argument have provided second hand unverifiable opinions

 

Being able to rarely down content once in a while when everything aligns and gets lucky is not balanced as some other class who can clear it reliably. When you get spike dmg that kills you in a few seconds that you cant predict saber ward is useless since nobody can predict a spike every time

 

Dos specs are worst in the game. After a 8k maul and 5 k discharge crit once in a blue moon yhat is again completely inconsisten. Even if t were consistent it still would t be comparable to other dps classes. So for everythi g you claim is not broken i can redirect to something that is.

 

And say guilds use them just find is irrelevant because there is no way to validate your claim or prove that is considtently being done or what the extenuating ciccumstances are

 

 

Once again ill ask just why you are against fixing sins when it in no way affects you? There has been a lot of evidence backing up my assertion and no arguments of merit or validity disputing me. Bring something more than second hanf opinions or a parse of your own and then i will take you seriously but if you expect o change my mind it will never happen due to my first hand experiences where you cant disprove something i wtiness myself

Edited August 24, 2013 by mmjarec
Sp

[theUndead]

Input and evidence are two different things. I didnt start this thread to debAte if they were broke i started it to get a bioware response So far everyone against my argument have provided second hand unverifiable opinions

 

Being able to rarely down content once in a while when everything aligns and gets lucky is not balanced as some other class who can clear it reliably. When you get spike dmg that kills you in a few seconds that you cant predict saber ward is useless since nobody can predict a spike every time

 

Dos specs are worst in the game. After a 8k maul and 5 k discharge crit once in a blue moon yhat is again completely inconsisten. Even if t were consistent it still would t be comparable to other dps classes. So for everythi g you claim is not broken i can redirect to something that is.

 

And say guilds use them just find is irrelevant because there is no way to validate your claim or prove that is considtently being done or what the extenuating ciccumstances are

 

 

Once again ill ask just why you are against fixing sins when it in no way affects you? There has been a lot of evidence backing up my assertion and no arguments of merit or validity disputing me. Bring something more than second hanf opinions or a parse of your own and then i will take you seriously but if you expect o change my mind it will never happen due to my first hand experiences where you cant disprove something i wtiness myself

 

I am not against fixing sins because I have one myself and I use it for raids. I can't give you a parse because I do not use my sin for dps. My contention is that it seems to you at least that they are not viable at all and I agree that the spikyness is a problem but I wonder if a raid them with experienced members can withstand this?

 

I will give an example. My guild has both a Imperial and Republic presence. On the Pub side our hardcore raid team consists of a Shadow (SIn) and Guardian. The team has cleared HM SnV and is working through NM and all of them say that despite the Shadows spike in damage on occasion the healers have no issue keeping both the tanks up and would even go so far as to say the Shadow holds threat better.

 

Now I am not saying that your points are moot or that they don't have some merit. They do I am just contending that every raid make up is different and you can't just blindly say the class is broken when other people seem to use them fine. Other than that you have a point they need to be looked at I agree I just don't think they completely useless.