Plz make tankasins not suck

[mmjarec]

Wow...

 

Acknowledged: In the current state of the game, at the HIGHEST level content, Shadow/Assassins are "spiky" with regard to damage taken when compared to the other tank classes, because they rely the most on RNG. This is a fact.

 

HOWEVER - they are still viable. Guilds are clearing HM TfB/S&V with Shadow/Assassin tanks every week. Guilds have cleared Nightmare content for both, with shadow/assassins in the the raid comp.

 

In everything I have read, and seen in game on both my own assassin tank, and on my healer..... I have the reached the following conclusions regarding the tank classes:

 

• There are good Jugg/Guardians & PT/Vanguards.
  
• There are medicore Jugg/Guardians & PT/Vanguards.
  
• There are bad Jugg/Guardians & PT/Vanguards.
  
• There are good Shadow/Assassins.
  
• There are bad Shadow/Assassins.
  

 

There is no such thing as a "mediocre" Shadow/Assassin tank. You have to tank smarter on a Shadow/Assassin, you have to know which cooldowns to use, and when, based on the damage attacks/types coming your way. You have to know how to avoid certain damage/attacks entirely. If you try to play a Shadow/Assassin, and stack endurance so you have 42k HP and try to tank everything by mashing buttons? Yes, you are going to die. A lot. Healers will hate you, and you will think that they suck as a tanking class. (For some reason, the one class more than any other that I see stack endurance to the high heavens are Shadows/Assassins.... I cry a little on the inside when I am on my healer and I see a Shadow come into our ops group with 40k+ HP in 69 gear.... and I see it a LOT.)

 

TL;DR - Shadow/Assassins are a viable tanking class. They have their flaws. If you think they "suck" however, chances are, you're either doing it wrong, or playing with people that are doing it wrong.

 

Thats funny because the empirical data that proves with indesputable numbers that sins are numerically inferior to other classes had nothing to do with player caliber, spec, or gear. So why they may have cleared it with a sin. Any other class would be more effective. Why is it okay for sins to be inferior ? Maybee a quality healer makes up for the inferiority but overall guilds have worse times running nightmare on certain bosses with sins than any other tanks. There should be tanking equality right now there is no reason to take a sin usually ppl do because its all they can find. And ppl who say they prefer sins over other tanks dont exist and if they do they are lying. Its much easier for the healer and the raid as a whole to not use a sin

 

And i guess all these guilds that say its too hard on nightmare mod for sins must just all suck because despite irrefutable data showing they are weaker its obvious they all just suck.

 

In the end asassins are just second hand last resort tanks and considering their other specs are worse compared to any other class it makes sins as a whole pointless to play when other classes can do anythi g and everything better

[MillionsKNives]

Yup, all L2P with this issue. Just ignore the 62 page thread that, among other like threads in the class forums, discusses heavily the issue of Shadow/Assassin tank spikiness. It must all be an overhyped figment of our imaginations. Edited August 20, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[Dragonexadon]

And i guess all these guilds that say its too hard on nightmare mod for sins must just all suck because despite irrefutable data showing they are weaker its obvious they all just suck.

 

Most guilds I talk to , that do Nightmare with a Shadow, are doing fine. There is no doubt that shadows need a buff, need to be reworked. However most guilds who do nightmare are willing to take tanks that are comfortable with their class over all.

 

The repub character, TCMEAT on POT5, (forget if there was accents on it) has many characters on the Imp side. His guild runs a sin tank and they are progressing fine. This tank owns a Guardian but prefers his Sin.

 

I also have a Shadow friend on POT5, who I just met his alt, his mains name escapes me, that plays nightmare on his shadow as a main. He plays both Guardian tank and Shadow tank. Only uses his Guardian as an alt. He agrees their health is Spikey and needs some love...yet clearly stated they are not as bad as are made otu to be via forums.

 

Kitru met this person and we all talked about the current state of Shadows and Guardians onmy teamspeak. To think shadows are unplayable is beyond an exaggeration. The only place they really suffer is nightmare content. And, even with their spikey health, they can and are doing nightmare content.

 

Do they need love? Yes. Clearly there are GOOD shadow tanks that are clearing content. So please lets not exaggerate

Edited August 20, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[Galickarn]

long nerdy discussions about mechanics with people who have no actual experience in game design nor balancing, might as well be 62 pages of lispy acne ridden ragers screaming with broken voices at a tabletop gaming session.

 

players that complain like this are never happy until they are able to do everything better than anyone at all times.

 

if something needs to be done about the tanks, it will be addressed by those in development. I can only hope the dev team is steeled against players with "insight" and i emphasis the quotations on that.

[MillionsKNives]

long nerdy discussions about mechanics with people who have no actual experience in game design nor balancing, might as well be 62 pages of lispy acne ridden ragers screaming with broken voices at a tabletop gaming session.

 

players that complain like this are never happy until they are able to do everything better than anyone at all times.

 

if something needs to be done about the tanks, it will be addressed by those in development. I can only hope the dev team is steeled against players with "insight" and i emphasis the quotations on that.

 

I think you need to throw a few more red herrings into your argument. I'm pretty sure you missed a few.

 

Nothing to see here folks, everything is fine, because this guy says so. And as we all know, the devs can do no wrong and are omnipotent. Ignore the "acne ridden ragers" and trust in the almighty devs.

[ApostleThirst]

I think you need to throw a few more red herrings into your argument. I'm pretty sure you missed a few.

 

Nothing to see here folks, everything is fine, because this guy says so. And as we all know, the devs can do no wrong and are omnipotent. Ignore the "acne ridden ragers" and trust in the almighty devs.

 

I don't think it's like that, but people definitely demonize the devs. They are humans, and yes they make mistakes. It's good to give them feedback instead of just raging, and I believe they are doing the best they can with that. Why? Because the best product wins the most people over.

[Andryah]

Yup, all L2P with this issue. Just ignore the 62 page thread that, among other like threads in the class forums, discusses heavily the issue of Shadow/Assassin tank spikiness. It must all be an overhyped figment of our imaginations.

 

Spikiness works both ways. The term refers to extremes of little damage all the way up to heavy damage on any given strike taken. Sometimes to your advantage, sometimes to your disadvantage. This is a concept people seem to miss. No different really then rogue tanks in the day inside Rift. It took guts and talent to play them well.. but well played.. they were awesome and exciting to play.

 

Sure.. spikiness is more chaotic and edgy. That's the point of the design IMO. It's not for the weak/timid. Some players though like living on the edge, where things are not 100% predictable.

 

If sin tanks were the only tank option in the game, I would agree with the focus of this thread. But they are not. They are, for lack of a better term, exotic... full of risks and in well played hands very powerful. There are more traditionally "tanky" classes for those that need the traditions of standing still and taking damage like a trash can being hated on by children.

 

TL;DR in the right hands, with the right mind set.. they don't suck. In the hands of the unimaginative and the risk averse.. they do suck. Play a class that fits your style.... not demand a class be restyled to fit you.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Andryah

[PlasmaJohn]

TL;DR in the right hands, with the right mind set.. they don't suck. In the hands of the unimaginative and the risk averse.. they do suck. Play a class that fits your style.... not demand a class be restyled to fit you.

The core of the complaint is not that the class cannot clear the content but that even if the AC and their support healers were played perfectly there are situations where tank death (and a wipe) are unavoidable. Unavoidable. Not super hard to heal through, just simply dead. This is not the case with the other two tank AC's.

 

Progression teams assume a certain amount of risk but that's limited to skill, gearing and familiarity with the content. All of those can be corrected. No amount of skill can defeat the vagaries of TOR's horrid RNG.

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

I always felt that the term "Assassin-Tank" to be an oximoron type of thing. Its like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

I carefully studied the Assassin, and realized if you do give up real DPS, which is ok for tanking, you regain the use of the shield, which is helpful but you are still in light armor, which dooms you into mediocirty since you can't really soak the damage up as a heavy armor user.

 

As i reflect on tanking, its all about damage evation and mitigation once you are hit. Obviously due to the light armor, you are going to be mediocre, plain and simple. Evade can appear to be promising, since you start at 10%, but the efficiency of Defense Rating to actual Chance of Defense is pathetic, and down right pointless, its actually 9 times inferior point for point than shield chance.

 

So when I really think about it, why are you even thinking of making an Assasin as a tank?

 

Sue

[Kitru]

Spikiness works both ways.

 

It's actually pretty well recognized and used to be a something that was recognized as an acceptable compromise concerning Shadow tanks.

 

The problem is that, thanks to the current content design, this trade off no longer exists. When you get good RNG, nothing really changes; healers already sit at max resources 90% of the time so not having to heal you for a few seconds doesn't really mean anything to them. When you get hit by bad RNG, on the other hand, a Shadow is going to die without having any ability to impact that on their own because the spikes are large enough that they can gib you fro what *should* be a reasonable level of hp. Furthermore, said spike damage is either entirely random (TWH and any number of high attack/sec bosses) or occurs more often than a CD is available (Ops Chief, Thrasher) so it's impossible to use CDs to mitigate them effectively, even *if* you play perfectly. Terminate hits hard enough on every difficultly that a Shadow tank at less than ~85% hp is going to get instantly killed by an unmitigated attack. The same is true for Thrasher and every other spike scenario in the game at the moment. Shadows *already* spend more time at lower hp ranges than the others tank thanks to their spiky incoming damage which is simply compounded by the fact that Shadows end up getting killed by said burst DPS at higher levels of hp.

 

The problem isn't in how the Shadow plays themself. The ability to impact their own survivability in spike damage scenarios is outside of the control of the person playing the Shadow: there simply aren't enough tools available to actually cover every occurrence. The only way to actually keep a Shadow alive, reliably, is to dump massive amounts of healing into the Shadow to constantly keep them above their incredibly high RNG-death threshold (and, even then, on NiM, sometimes the RNG-death threshold is higher than a Shadow's max hp so they're still screwed). Basically, a Shadow is incapable of actually impacting their own survivability and relies *entirely* upon their healers doing their job *insanely* well and dumping an unholy amount of overhealing into the Shadow to keep the topped off.

 

Because of this, anyone claiming "l2play" has no idea what they're talking about. If a Shadow is doing well in end game content, it's not because *they* are good. It's because their *healers* are good; good enough, in fact, that they could heal *either* of the other tanks with no effort whatsoever.

 

No one is claiming that Shadows cannot clear content. It's a painfully common misconception about the argument. The debate here is one of comparative performance, not binary capability. Shadow survivability has been taken out of their own hands by the design of the content so that the only way for a Shadow to tank is to trust that their *healer* is absurdly good. On top of that, Shadows are, explicitly, the tanks that present the biggest liability thanks to their proclivity for dying to RNG. Those scenarios that they *do* excel at are situations where the other tanks are only put at a slight disadvantage; the scenarios that completely obliterate Shadows, on the other hand, barely phase the other tanks. Even if you *prefer* playing a Shadow, there are loads of *damned* compelling reasons to play either of the other tanks (especially Guardians who, quite literally, have no weak point *at all*). There are no substantive mechanical reasons to play a Shadow rather than a VG or Guardian and a whole *slew* of substantive mechanical reasons *not* to.

 

Basically, the only reason to play a Shadow any more is that you enjoy playing a Shadow enough that you don't care that they're significantly inferior to the other options.

[MillionsKNives]

I don't think it's like that, but people definitely demonize the devs. They are humans, and yes they make mistakes. It's good to give them feedback instead of just raging, and I believe they are doing the best they can with that. Why? Because the best product wins the most people over.

 

Demonize? Some maybe, but in the general sense that Assassins/Shadows are getting annoyed as a whole that part is pretty rightly deserved. Their DPS (at least in PVE) has been broken since very early on in the game (if it ever wasn't) and especially now is the lowest in terms of DPS. On the tank side they've had issues since 2.0 launched with their lack of DR and months of discussion were completely ignored (not even known about) until one member spammed the entire forums to get their attention. Even then all they said was "we'll look into it and get back to you", and that was about 7 weeks ago. Does it really take that long to "look into it"?

 

Mmm...

 

I always felt that the term "Assassin-Tank" to be an oximoron type of thing. Its like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

I carefully studied the Assassin, and realized if you do give up real DPS, which is ok for tanking, you regain the use of the shield, which is helpful but you are still in light armor, which dooms you into mediocirty since you can't really soak the damage up as a heavy armor user.

 

As i reflect on tanking, its all about damage evation and mitigation once you are hit. Obviously due to the light armor, you are going to be mediocre, plain and simple. Evade can appear to be promising, since you start at 10%, but the efficiency of Defense Rating to actual Chance of Defense is pathetic, and down right pointless, its actually 9 times inferior point for point than shield chance.

 

So when I really think about it, why are you even thinking of making an Assasin as a tank?

 

Sue

 

Perhaps you should research further. Assassins get an armor boost straight from their charge (used to be more than it is now), which puts them above the normal light armor. They also take less damage overall due to their mitigation stats than either of the other tanks. The problem now though is that they are too spiky compared to the other tanks, and the current content is too centered around large spikes, that together they make the Assassin too much of a liability to be considered properly balanced.

Edited August 20, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[mmjarec]

long nerdy discussions about mechanics with people who have no actual experience in game design nor balancing, might as well be 62 pages of lispy acne ridden ragers screaming with broken voices at a tabletop gaming session.

 

players that complain like this are never happy until they are able to do everything better than anyone at all times.

 

if something needs to be done about the tanks, it will be addressed by those in development. I can only hope the dev team is steeled against players with "insight" and i emphasis the quotations on that.

 

You dont need game design experience to see that it is clearly an uneven playing field. To you it might seem like they are never happy but did it cross your inept mind that the reason they are unhappy is because theres an actual problem not ppl just wanting to be better than everyone else and that possibly all they want is an even playing field

 

If by better than everyone else you mean equivalent then yes i want to be better

 

Obviously it wont be adressed by those in development or it would be occuring despite your misplaced trust that they will eventually fix the issues. They still havent fixed launch issues

Edited August 20, 2013 by mmjarec
More

[Dragonexadon]

Basically, the only reason to play a Shadow any more is that you enjoy playing a Shadow enough that you don't care that they're significantly inferior to the other options.

 

Considering this really only reasonably effects Nightmare content I would suggest that there are more reasons to play a shadow then not. If you calculate how many people are doing nightmare content / total people raiding.

 

My biggest gripe about this debate is that the majority of shadows that are complaining have not done nightmare content. The damage output is easily overcome in story and hardmode which my guild runs all the time with a shadow with little extra effort.

 

Yes the game needs to be balanced via nightmare content. No question. No question Shadows need love. Just ask that everyone put this in proper perspective. Unless you are hitting 'world first' , progression guilds that are on nightmare content...then you have PLENTY of reasons to play a shadow. If you are one of the few making it to Nightmare content then I agree Shadows are not best in slot tanks currently. They still can complete the content however.

[mmjarec]

Considering this really only reasonably effects Nightmare content I would suggest that there are more reasons to play a shadow then not. If you calculate how many people are doing nightmare content / total people raiding.

 

My biggest gripe about this debate is that the majority of shadows that are complaining have not done nightmare content. The damage output is easily overcome in story and hardmode which my guild runs all the time with a shadow with little extra effort.

 

Yes the game needs to be balanced via nightmare content. No question. No question Shadows need love. Just ask that everyone put this in proper perspective. Unless you are hitting 'world first' , progression guilds that are on nightmare content...then you have PLENTY of reasons to play a shadow. If you are one of the few making it to Nightmare content then I agree Shadows are not best in slot tanks currently. They still can complete the content however.

 

You state there are plenty of reasons to play one yet give no examples. You say the only issue is with nightmare mode yet people are bringing up other areas of debate so obviously it goes farther than just nightmare mode. You seem to fail understanding that their dps is the lowes in the game or realize they have no compensation for light armor or have any pvp viability other than node camping

[Dragonexadon]

You state there are plenty of reasons to play one yet give no examples. You say the only issue is with nightmare mode yet people are bringing up other areas of debate so obviously it goes farther than just nightmare mode. You seem to fail understanding that their dps is the lowes in the game or realize they have no compensation for light armor or have any pvp viability other than node camping

First let me state that I am speaking mainly on PVE raid tanking. Though f,rom my Shadows in guild, I believe they are doing very well in PVP. That said I can't speak from experience for PVP.

 

In many previous debates it was covered so I did not feel the need to bring it up again but their utility is most valuable during a raid including

 

CC, stealth rez, increase healing for phasewalk (yesss I know you guys hate phasewalk), trailing adds, multiple healthpack uses, self cleanse, great aoe threat, ect. There are many neat tricks shadows can do during different fights to make it easier for everyone. TFB first boss avoiding adds, Xeno phase walk behind a pillar.

 

Shadow DPS is not drastically lower than other current tank classes. Unless I have failed to see any recent parses showing otherwise. Which is possible as it has been a while since I checked torparse.

 

I have yet to experience problems with my Shadow alt in storymode or HM that made it anywhere close to unplayable. The damage output of Story/Hard is simply not there for the majority of these issues. Our guild just did TFB HM last night with a mostly 69 moded shadow. He had a healing proc relic , which someone told him it was best in slot and I was going to ask today what Shadows felt about this, and very low mitigation.

 

I talked to my healers after and they said they noticed him taking a bit more damage than I was but nothing anywhere close to unmanageable.

 

Though it may not seem like it ...I DO agree mostly with Kitru, KBN, and all the other great number crunchers we have on the boards. . I don't crunch numbers. I do however experience the raids as my own Shadow and shadows in my guild. HM content is currently not an issue for shadows, they are clearing it fine. Nightmare is the biggest concern. Which the game SHOULD be balanced on nightmare content anyway.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[MillionsKNives]

Shadow DPS is not drastically lower than other current tank classes. Unless I have failed to see any recent parses showing otherwise. Which is possible as it has been a while since I checked torparse.

 

Not tank DPS, he means DPS DPS. Shadow DPS specs are the worst in the game. Shadow tank DPS is the highest but not by much. PT is right behind, with Jug not far behind that. It's pretty balanced overall for tank DPS.

 

I have yet to experience problems with my Shadow alt in storymode or HM that made it anywhere close to unplayable. The damage output of Story/Hard is simply not there for the majority of these issues. Our guild just did TFB HM last night with a mostly 69 moded shadow. He had a healing proc relic , which someone told him it was best in slot and I was going to ask today what Shadows felt about this, and very low mitigation.

 

I believe the two proc relics (defense and absorb) are BiS now since the 2.3 change. The healing relic was better before because the two procs did not work together.

[Hockaday]

Considering this really only reasonably effects Nightmare content I would suggest that there are more reasons to play a shadow then not. If you calculate how many people are doing nightmare content / total people raiding.

.

 

This is incorrect. It also affects HM content as well. Just to a lesser extent. But I can see it in my own experiences. Not as bad as NM of course...but it does.

[Dragonexadon]

Not tank DPS, he means DPS DPS. Shadow DPS specs are the worst in the game. Shadow tank DPS is the highest but not by much. PT is right behind, with Jug not far behind that. It's pretty balanced overall for tank DPS.

 

Oooooooh, yeah DPS shadows blow haha. No question. I thought the topic was just tanking.

I believe the two proc relics (defense and absorb) are BiS now since the 2.3 change. The healing relic was better before because the two procs did not work together.

 

Good to know, I will pass that info to the new Shadow tank in our guild.

[Berjiz]

First let me state that I am speaking mainly on PVE raid tanking. Though f,rom my Shadows in guild, I believe they are doing very well in PVP. That said I can't speak from experience for PVP.

 

In many previous debates it was covered so I did not feel the need to bring it up again but their utility is most valuable during a raid including

 

CC, stealth rez, increase healing for phasewalk (yesss I know you guys hate phasewalk), trailing adds, multiple healthpack uses, self cleanse, great aoe threat, ect. There are many neat tricks shadows can do during different fights to make it easier for everyone. TFB first boss avoiding adds, Xeno phase walk behind a pillar.

 

Shadow DPS is not drastically lower than other current tank classes. Unless I have failed to see any recent parses showing otherwise. Which is possible as it has been a while since I checked torparse.

 

I have yet to experience problems with my Shadow alt in storymode or HM that made it anywhere close to unplayable. The damage output of Story/Hard is simply not there for the majority of these issues. Our guild just did TFB HM last night with a mostly 69 moded shadow. He had a healing proc relic , which someone told him it was best in slot and I was going to ask today what Shadows felt about this, and very low mitigation.

 

I talked to my healers after and they said they noticed him taking a bit more damage than I was but nothing anywhere close to unmanageable.

 

Though it may not seem like it ...I DO agree mostly with Kitru, KBN, and all the other great number crunchers we have on the boards. . I don't crunch numbers. I do however experience the raids as my own Shadow and shadows in my guild. HM content is currently not an issue for shadows, they are clearing it fine. Nightmare is the biggest concern. Which the game SHOULD be balanced on nightmare content anyway.

Try trasher S&V hm 16 man with a an assasin in 69 gear. It will go splat without really good healers. I took 28k dmg there, swipe+sniper.

[Rafaman]

+1

 

We are raiding with 2 shadows NiM and thats absolutely perfect.

Kiting with speed, vanish at the right time, and other things you can avoid some essential mechanics. Thats what the shadow makes better then every other tankclass.

 

Agree. Running HMs and started NiM with a Shadow Tank and it is awesome. They are not a weak tank and are excellent at holding aggro.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Rafaman

[Dragonexadon]

Try trasher S&V hm 16 man with a an assasin in 69 gear. It will go splat without really good healers. I took 28k dmg there, swipe+sniper.

 

16 mans are much easier than 8 man as far as keeping tanks alive IMHO. That said I ran with an under-geared Shadow (not as under geared) 8 man.and we also did fine for as far as we got. Admittedly we quit after the weekly because people had other commitments.

 

Do you have the torparse of the fight? Just want to see what was going on during that fight for my own personal interest.

 

All of that said I believe the two healers in my guild , Lexi and Sythface, are really top notch. So clearly that factors into the experiences i have in HM.

[Bilirubin]

What bugs me the most is that these threads are creating the perception that Shadow tanks are all around useless when the problem is mostly restricted to NiM. On my first raid with my new guild someone asked me what class I was and when I replied "Shadow" went "ewwww". Yet despite being lower geared I stayed up just fine, and brought some utility that folks really appreciated. Turns out I got that reception partially because they had heard Shadow tanks were not in a good place, but also one of them has one but "sucks on it".

 

Perception isn't reality

[Dragonexadon]

What bugs me the most is that these threads are creating the perception that Shadow tanks are all around useless when the problem is mostly restricted to NiM. On my first raid with my new guild someone asked me what class I was and when I replied "Shadow" went "ewwww". Yet despite being lower geared I stayed up just fine, and brought some utility that folks really appreciated. Turns out I got that reception partially because they had heard Shadow tanks were not in a good place, but also one of them has one but "sucks on it".

 

Perception isn't reality

 

Yes, and this has been y experience with my shadow thus far. They clearly need love but the perception is far worse than the reality.

[gorstram]

OP,

 

You need to accept the fact that there will never be a truly homogenous lineup of tanks in this game. Some tanks will be able to go through certain fights better than others due to their individual class mechanics. If you want your shadow/assassin tank to be fixed, this thread needs to contain the empirical evidence you speak of (copy and paste it from EJ if you want), and then post your argument as to what items need to be fixed. In order for your response to be valid, it should contain the "napkin math" you feel would justify the changes to said skills and talents. Finally, your argument should be free of any unnecessary pathos.

 

These are the types of posts most likely to be read and truly considered by the devs. They don't really care about you issues unless you have numbers to provide them that they can go back and test with.

[mmjarec]

Agree. Running HMs and started NiM with a Shadow Tank and it is awesome. They are not a weak tank and are excellent at holding aggro.

 

Aggro isnt a problem until certain encounters the issue is the lack of mitigation and ability wise. No intercede. Everyone says stelth rez but that is a gamble that usually results in wipes on hard encounters due to aggro drop Theres no reason to even bother on dps and if its heals on high dmg bosses u cant make up for it in time befor the boss creams half the group

 

So basically everyone agrees dps spec sucks. Worst in game and numbers prove sin have less mitigation and tank issues with that spec and anyone doing nightmare mode would prefer another class so again. There is no reason to need a sin for any reason

Edited August 20, 2013 by mmjarec
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