Why the consular/inquisitor nerf to force wave?

[Sangrar]

I just realized after playing on my consular for the first time in months that force wave had been nerfed, instead of covering 360 degrees it only covers the front of me now. I got to ask WHAT HAPPENED? also WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN? and most importantly, WHY!?! I do not see at ALL why this was such a huge advantage that the devs would nerf this! I mean first they uined the project animation so instead of getting an object from the ground near me it does so next to the object, now force wave is ruined! commandos got 360 degree pushback why can't we! could someone please explain how this happened and how 1 360 degree ability got nerfed. I have already had to deal with nerfs to pyrotech for powertechs ( they reduced range to 10 meters, its like all classes that can be tanks they want to be close range only) so please explain.

[Tommot]

You're a bit late to the party. It happened in 2.0. I dont remember exactly what BIoware's reasoning was, but it had something to do with it supposedly being OP in PvP.

[Razamatazz]

Yeah, pretty sure it was PvP related. The animation was changed due to the delay it caused, but I think the effect was changed because of the effectiveness it had on the catwalks in Huttball. Not a big fan of the change either, but hey its here and I've adapted to it, messed me up at first when I came back but once you blow it a few times you remember to start using good positioning.

[Banegio]

not 2.0

more like around 1.4

 

there was a relatively big pvp rebalance at that time

 

some other changes include all stuns reduced to 10m, resolve filled up less

Edited August 12, 2013 by Banegio

[BaronV]

it was nerfed way back in 1.4. When the changes were announced there was a HUGE outcry against it by PVE players, but as always Biowaer just steamrolled it through in favour of PVPers.

 

I remember I was so angry I nearly quit this game.... Now I've just gotten used to it, but it doesnt mean I dislike it any less than I did.

 

PS; The changed animation is HORRIBLE

[Galsarus]

This nerfing happened around 1.4. The reason they gave was the having a 360 degree attack had the unintentional consequence of breaking CCs in close quarters combat. As far as I can remember though, very few people complained about force wave/overload breaking CCs.

 

What a LOT of people were complaining about was more related to a strategy in Void Star. In the second room, a shadow/assassin would park himself/herself right in the middle of the bridge and wait for the offensive team to pass by. at the right moment, they'd hit FW/OL and it would knock them off the bridge. I've been a victim and instigator of this many a times. In fact, in one WZ, my entire team got knocked off the bridge by an assassin (back then, the attack hit ALL targets around you).

 

After a lot of rage and angry backlash, the devs changed it so that it became a 15 degree frontal cone attack effecting up to 5 targets.

[Anysao]

Everyone is right except about one thing: it was update 1.5.

[Hockaday]

As usual, PvPrs are to blame. :/

[Galsarus]

Everyone is right except about one thing: it was update 1.5.

 

Hey Anysao,

 

Thanks for the clarification:D - couldn't exactly remember whether it was 1.4 or 1.5. But do remember a number of fellow pvpers were glad this change was coming because "Knock Off the Bridge using Force Wave" strategy was starting to annoy them

[GuruVII]

Nerf? The effective area it covers is greater, it became more focused, more controllable and its range tripled. I consider it a buff, at worst it is a fair exchange. Edited August 12, 2013 by GuruVII

[Kamansus]

it was nerfed way back in 1.4. When the changes were announced there was a HUGE outcry against it by PVE players, but as always Biowaer just steamrolled it through in favour of PVPers.

 

I remember I was so angry I nearly quit this game.... Now I've just gotten used to it, but it doesnt mean I dislike it any less than I did.

 

PS; The changed animation is HORRIBLE

 

...why would PvErs care? Because it takes a small amount of turning and kiting to knockback a pack of trash mobs? It's functionally the same skill, you just need to do a small amount of maneuvering. And really, how much utility does a basic knockback have in FPs/Ops? The best use I can think of is sage/sorc healer using it to get rid of a pack of trash mobs that the tank hadn't aggrod off. Which it can still do if you take a second to kite them into a ball. It's a useless skill against anything actually important.

 

Unless you mean for solo/leveling stuff, in which case lol.

 

I've also noticed an interesting cognitive dissonance among the player base. If Bioware makes a balance change for PvP the PvErs claim that Bioware always ignores them in favour of PvPers. Then when Bioware puts a couple new operations in a "PvP patch" the PvP forums explode into a deluge of accusations that Bioware hates PvPers and is only ever trying to appease the PvE playerbase. It's adorable.

 

And for the record, the skill was OP in PvE and PvP before the nerf. Never mind the fact you could scatter however many players and mobs into every direction with an instant cast skill, it didn't even take a shred of skill or effort to do so. Now at least you have to watch where you're facing.

[physiology]

It wasnt a nerf, it was a buff. the main reason is that it activates instantly now instead of going through the animation. It was changed because counslars/Inquistors complained that once an enemy could see the animation starting, they could stun/knockback/mez the counslar/inquistor which put the move on cooldown and prevented it from actually happening. There was a slight outcry before it happened (myself included) thinking it was a nerf because of the frontal cone, but after we started playing it, most people preferred the change. Besides, aiming it is really easy unless you click your moves.

[Berjiz]

...why would PvErs care? Because it takes a small amount of turning and kiting to knockback a pack of trash mobs? It's functionally the same skill, you just need to do a small amount of maneuvering. And really, how much utility does a basic knockback have in FPs/Ops? The best use I can think of is sage/sorc healer using it to get rid of a pack of trash mobs that the tank hadn't aggrod off. Which it can still do if you take a second to kite them into a ball. It's a useless skill against anything actually important.

Overload was and is very useful for interupting casts, especially on mobs that can't be interupted like Carvers in SV. Before if someone said something or you noticed it you could just overload as panic button, now you need to find the mob, face it and then overload. That takes time so you might be to late. I usually set that sort of targets as focus while dpsing other mobs and finding so when something happens and you need to switch, phasing the target can be tricky sometimes due to the cone.

[Galsarus]

Nerf? The effective area it covers is greater, it became more focused, more controllable and its range tripled. I consider it a buff, at worst it is a fair exchange.

 

Hi GuruVII,

Nerf? The effective area it covers is greater,

 

I tend to disagree that the effective area FW/OL now covers is greater, It is a lot less. At its current state. its 15 meter cone in front, when pre nerf it used to be a 360 degree 30 meter (I'm pretty sure about the range, but anyone who remembers FW / OL pre 1.5, please feel free to correct me) range.

 

it became more focused, more controllable.

 

This I do agree with.

 

its range tripled.

 

I would disagree here as well as the range actually got reduced. It was a 360 degree 30 meter (again someone feel free to correct me if this is wrong) attack pre-nerf. Now the effective range is reduced to a 15 meter frontal cone.

 

In effect, I would probably admit, calling it nerfing maybe a bit too harsh, but definitely re-balancing.

[physiology]

Hi GuruVII,

 

I would disagree here as well as the range actually got reduced. It was a 360 degree 30 meter (again someone feel free to correct me if this is wrong) attack pre-nerf. Now the effective range is reduced to a 15 meter frontal cone.

 

It was 8 meters before. A 30 meter knockback would be insane lol

Edited August 12, 2013 by physiology

[LordArtemis]

This is just my opinion.

 

The problem with the change.

 

First, the change was a change to a visual toy that identified the class. The ability to jump up in the air, slam your fist down on the ground and throw back everyone around you was an ICONIC FEATURE of being that class....when you saw that you knew what class they were. It was part of the class identity.

 

Like the leap through the air to strike with your saber, or rocketing up into the air and throwing out missiles among your enemies....taking cover and dropping your target it one shot...ICONIC ABILITIES.

 

An iconic ability that identified a class was changed to appease an arguably minority group in the gaming community.

 

Second, they didn't just change the iconic ability, they also changed the effect of the animation, rendering it to something that resembles comedy. Like a bad action movie where the enemy drops before you hit them.

 

A double whammy.

 

Third, there was probably a better way to do it. They have abilities that do not work in PVP. Other abilities have different effects in PVP. This tells me one thing....they could have left this ability alone.

 

It worked in PVE. It was an iconic ability. They could have simply given us a new ability with a new name that resembles the current nerfed ability, and then disable the original ability in PVP. Or even have a different effect in PVP.

 

The current ability could have used a different animation so it would not look silly when an enemy is affected right away before the animation finishes....you just change the animation to an instant move trigger.

 

Then you would have had the best solution IMO.

 

Instead they chose to engage in one of the worst mistakes they have ever made from my perspective. A mistake that continues today.

Edited August 12, 2013 by LordArtemis

[aeterno]

Leap and smash to ground is iconic for the knights if anything heh.

 

 

I never understood why PvE-ers got into an uproar about it.

 

What exactly was this 360 knock-back so important for in PvE?

 

Seriously, when did a sage ever use the thing in an operation? A shadow? Never.

 

And if you're suggesting balancing for leveling purposes takes precedent over PvP you're being absurd.

Edited August 12, 2013 by aeterno

[Elly_Dawn]

ok, this is how it worked in PvE for me before the change...

i used a Shadow back then and my brother used a Sentinel, i'd cloak in move to the healer, backstab them drawing the group to me, my brother would Force Leap in and Force Sweep the group, less than a second later i would use Force Wave and send the entire group flying in all directions... at this point the enemy group is effectively gimped by almost half and scattered, making it easy to pick them off before they even got a chance to gang back up... since then i've had to change and adapt my strategy, but i feel the way we did it was the way it was originally intended... now it has lost most of its effectiveness unless you line up properly, it can't be done from the center of the group anymore...

moreover it was a great panic button when you encountered a little too much resistance giving you the edge to make a hasty retreat...

Edited August 12, 2013 by Elly_Dawn

[GuruVII]

Seriously, when did a sage ever use the thing in an operation? A shadow? Never.

The only use in ops, I've seen was using it to annoy dmg dealers by pushing them out of the cone and you can still do that... well that and perhaps as an opener for a large group you want to aggro (which tends to coincide with first use I mentioned), but for this application a long range cone is more effective.

 

I tend to disagree that the effective area FW/OL now covers is greater, It is a lot less. At its current state. its 15 meter cone in front, when pre nerf it used to be a 360 degree 30 meter (I'm pretty sure about the range, but anyone who remembers FW / OL pre 1.5, please feel free to correct me) range.

Someone said it was 8m, I thought it was 5m, so the range did not triple, it nearly doubled. But as far as the area it covers, a circle with r of 8m covers 8^2* pi = 201m^2, and the current force wave, I would guess has a 160° cone (looking at the area the animation covers), which means the area is 15ˇ2* pi * 160/360 = 314 m^2 and even if it is only 120° the area the wave covers is still greater.

 

 

now it has lost most of its effectiveness unless you line up properly

Let us rephrase that... now it lost most if its effectiveness unless you take two steps backwards.

 

Third, there was probably a better way to do it. They have abilities that do not work in PVP. Other abilities have different effects in PVP. This tells me one thing....they could have left this ability alone.

There are, which ones? Do you mean the ones that were removed in 2.0?

Edited August 12, 2013 by GuruVII

[hadoken]

I'd be happier if they just removed it so I could stop having people use it in flashpoints/ops because they're terrible.

[MillionsKNives]

I tend to disagree that the effective area FW/OL now covers is greater, It is a lot less. At its current state. its 15 meter cone in front, when pre nerf it used to be a 360 degree 30 meter (I'm pretty sure about the range, but anyone who remembers FW / OL pre 1.5, please feel free to correct me) range.

 

You sure you thought it was 30m? You realize that 30m is the max range of all sage/sorc attacks, that would be absolutely insane. You could clear an entire battlefield with that range. You had to be thinking of a different number.

 

I'd be happier if they just removed it so I could stop having people use it in flashpoints/ops because they're terrible.

 

Agreed, I can't stand when people use knockbacks against groups of adds, unless they're well aimed and actually condense the group instead of spreading it out. But that rarely happens, it's usually some healer (especially since knockbacks can be specc'd to heal) or derpy DPS who wanders over and ends up knocking the adds all away from the tank and/or DPS. As a tank that means I can't get aggro on them anymore from my AOEs, and end up losing a few to the healer/DPS. As a DPS that means that my big AOEs also can't hit, and we have to single target down what was perfectly a condensed group.

Edited August 12, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[Quraswren]

You're a bit late to the party. It happened in 2.0. I dont remember exactly what BIoware's reasoning was, but it had something to do with it supposedly being OP in PvP.

 

That might be true but then I played a BH and a sniper both which have 360 degree knock-backs that were better than what the sage had since they could pick up points to increase the knock back range.

 

It was a nerf to sages where others got to keep a simple skill that did teh same thing if not better.

 

I never understood the need for the nerf.

[Kitru]

Agreed, I can't stand when people use knockbacks against groups of adds, unless they're well aimed and actually condense the group instead of spreading it out. But that rarely happens, it's usually some healer (especially since knockbacks can be specc'd to heal) or derpy DPS who wanders over and ends up knocking the adds all away from the tank and/or DPS.

 

I friggin' *hate* the randoms that treat the KBs as if they were heals/damage powers instead of what they *actually* are: utility.

 

I've met so many random Sages that act as if Force Wave were their only/best/most useful AoE heal, completely ignoring that they've got Salvation *and* how Force Wave is a pretty terrible heal from any perspective. The "KBs also heal" talents made me facepalm *so* hard when I saw them because I knew it would only make them use the KBs that many of them *already* overused and used poorly even more often.

 

For DPS, if a Sage even *thinks* of using Force Wave as an AoE damage ability, they should be taken out to the shed and shot. Shadows, on the other hand, have so little AoE that I can understand the thought process ("it's one of our two default AoE abilities that deals damage") even if it is *still* completely terrible as an AoE damage ability. As a Shadow DPS, you have to just admit that you have completely negligible AoE damage capability and move on: your "AoE" is either single targeting stuff down or multi-DoTing (depending upon spec).

[Selven]

I actually love the change! I solo about 99% of the time and so I find that sometimes it's a nice trick to have. Before the change, I just about never used it, because that would mean I'd also break the stun I had on the gold elite.

 

It's not a problem pushing a full group of mobs either. Two steps back and I'm still able to get them off of me.

[elvavwiel]

First of all: i never quite cared for force wave, the only thing that still rubs me wrongly is the change they did to the project animation.

 

Now then to the actual reply:

 

If i recall correctly it went something like this (words are a bit off, but fairly certain thats what they said):

They increased the range but made it a conal 180'ish push in front of you to make its utility as an escape skill more usefull.

Translation: We dont know that running away means turning your back on someone, so now you have to jump midair twist 180 degrees, use force wave, turn another 180 degrees and keep running)

 

And for the record, the skill was OP in PvE and PvP before the nerf. Never mind the fact you could scatter however many players and mobs into every direction with an instant cast skill, it didn't even take a shred of skill or effort to do so. Now at least you have to watch where you're facing.

 

On a side note, trooper & sniper aoe knockback is still 360 degrees, but well atleast you can interrupt them before... oh wait... no you cant.

 

they could stun/knockback/mez the counslar/inquistor which put the move on cooldown and prevented it from actually happening

Funny thing is that inq's could interrupt consulars as well with their knockback.

 

An iconic ability that identified a class was changed to appease an arguably minority group in the gaming community.

WTB old project (or current legacy project) animation for current project.

 

The issue is that they somehow found it hard to 'insta activate' things vs the animation it had so they decided to change it all up.

 

I've met so many random Sages that act as if Force Wave were their only/best/most useful AoE heal, completely ignoring that they've got Salvation *and* how Force Wave is a pretty terrible heal from any perspective. The "KBs also heal" talents made me facepalm *so* hard when I saw them because I knew it would only make them use the KBs that many of them *already* overused and used poorly even more often.

It's a no cost insta cast aoe heal without healing limitation, it's damn usefull in ops/boss fights.