HELP JUGG Tanks are under attack!!!

[Hambunctious]

The shadow/assassin self healing is garbage, and it was only nerfed int he first because of pvp. The same with armor buff while in tank role.

 

Even so, nerfing guardian/juggs in no way helps shadows/assassins.

[Vaidinah]

Sorry for the late responses, I've been busy as of late.

 

You're either confusing your terms or including raid healing in an assassin's self-heal. I'm not sure which.

 

Assuming you use your Phase Walk on the healers, you are giving them a 5% buff with 33% uptime (per your assumptions). This is a stochastic 1.65% buff to healing done. Which is to say, a multiplicative increase to general mitigation by that same factor. This reduces the effective external healing required (adjusting pre-buff) to 2209.54 at 5200 DtPS, which is less than a juggernaut.

 

However, I would challenge the 33% uptime. On most fights that matter, Phase Walk is simply unusable for the healing buff. Allow me to enumerate:

 

• Dread Guard (no time to refresh it and too much pushback)
  
• Kephess (too much movement and too large of an arena)
  
• TfB 1st phase (can be used in the second, but the uptime is far less than even 33% due to phase timing)
  
• Titan VI (needed as a teleport; also too much movement)
  
• Thrasher (no time to refresh it)
  
• Cartel Warlords (Spray 'n Pray; also large arena)
  

 

Note that the three bosses which represent the most serious heal check are included on this list. I was also tempted to include Writhing Horror as the tanking phases make it extremely difficult to achieve significant uptime on Phase Walk (I've tried), even with two assassins. I'm not sure it's fair to count Phase Walk as part of an assassin's mitigation when it isn't available on the hardest content in the game.

 

Additionally, please keep in mind that Phase Walk affects both tanks. In other words, juggernaut mitigation is improved by 1.65% whenever an assassin is using Phase Walk. This is a theme that is shared with the damage debuff from Wither, which is precisely why theory crafters do not include such buffs/debuffs when talking about tank balance, because they stack in such a way that all tanks benefit.

 

I would say that in general, you can definitely get more than 33% uptime on Phase Walk. From your examples:

 

1) Dread Guard - Put up at the beginning and put up again after getting the first Force Leech to get around 60% uptime or more. This will give not only great uptime, but also allow them to be up at the most important parts of the fight. Although it's true that your healers may get a green circle that ruins the last circle, but this can be worked around.

 

2) Kephess - I completely agree with this one as you'll get probably less than 15% uptime here. Since your entire team needs to move with you to be ready to get next to a pillar, the only real use you'll get out of Phase Walk would be right before the 3rd phase when Kephess shoots orange circles at the farthest targets.

 

3) TFB 1st Phase - The tentacles always spawn in the same places and if your healers are on them, you don't even need to move to place them. You can put one up for one full tentacle and most of another one for close to 55-65% uptime since there are only 3 tentacles.

 

4) Titan 6 - You can put one up at the beginning and every time you are off-tanking for a total of 2-3 times (40-60% uptime). Thus, you'd have one up for every other area Titan 6 spawns. Thus, it can be used as both a teleport and a heal boon as you just cancel the skill early when you are off-tanking to help;out your co-tank. Also, I know most teams have their tanks take the closest rocks, but you don't need to hold aggro once the 2nd set of Lots of Missiles comes out so you can use it to take closer rocks to the next spawn point.

 

5) Thrasher - While I definitely agree that you can only put this up the very first time for your healers, this is a pretty short fight (less than 5 minutes in general) so the 2 minute timer amounts to a 40% or more uptime.

 

6) Cartel Warlords - You can get this up twice in the fight for about 50% or more uptime. Spray and Pray only hits for a short time so it's pretty easy to move back in once it's done and this is perhaps one of the easier fights since you can Force Speed away from Sunder to drop one when he fixates to have the breathing room needed. Even if you are not available all the time, your co-tank can be healed at least along with the rest of your team for most of the fight.

 

I would agree with you in general that it probably wouldn't be fair to count Phase Walk for Assassin mean mitigation since it's very conditional, you have no control over if you are getting the healing or your team is, and so on. I think these kind of factors should be noted as a caveat, though, similar to how you mention important considerations like "armor debuff" and "execute" in your DPS leaderboard so people are aware of them.

 

I'm going to have to come in here and eat crow, because I made a typo in my original math, giving Guardians higher base mitigation (specifically shield) than they actually have. Correcting this gives me adjusted numbers:

 

• Shadow: 50.93%
  
• Guardian: 52.85%
  
• Vanguard: 55.33%
  

 

With these corrected numbers, we have some very different results. Specifically, Assassins do have better mean mitigation than Juggernauts. On a boss which does 5200 DtPS pre-mitigation, assassins will take 3.5% less damage than an equivalently geared juggernaut (2251.64 vs 2335.3) and 3% less damage than a Vanguard.

 

The level of pre-mitigation damage required to make an assassin take more damage than a juggernaut is 9564 DtPS, while the level of damage required to make an assassin take more damage than a powertech is 6814 DtPS. There are no bosses which do 9564 DtPS. There are, however, a number of bosses which do more than 6814.

 

This also doesn't strike me as particularly balanced, since I would really rather see a Juggernaut with better mean mitigation than a Powertech to compensate for their slightly higher spikiness. The issue here, of course, is the non-scaling nature of the Juggernaut self-heal.

 

So anyway, I retract what I said earlier about Juggernauts exceeding Assassin mean mitigation. Corrected math shows that there is no current content where this is true.

 

I really couldn't believe Jugg mean mitigation could be so good since from what I've seen, Juggernaughts gain by far the least amount of free stats from their skill trees/abilities, but theoretically make up for it with amazing defensive cooldowns. Based on your math, mean mitigation is probably not perfect between the tanks, but reasonable. On future NiM content, though, it is likely that the Assassin and apparently the Juggernaught will end up putting them behind where they should be here.

 

This reminds me a bit of when I first got on the PTS for 2.0 and everyone had a huge amount of health. I had a bad feeling about the big numbers, but I didn't think it would foreshadow such massive spikes on NiM content. When everyone's health totals go up by about 30% and Dark Charge's heals and Blade Barrier didn't really scale, it was inevitable that this would be an issue.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Vaidinah

[Leafy_Bug]

Epic thread deserves an epic answer. Edited August 22, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[KeyboardNinja]

There seems to be a ~20% gap between how much Juggernauts spend on stat mitigation chance compared to how much Assassins spend. Comparing it with Powertech this difference 17-19%. I'm not sure about the differences between the the base+active mitigation chance of the 3 tanks, but a 20% gap seems pretty large.

 

So I wonder if Assasins would lower their spike RNG death chances by shifting points from absorb into either shield or defence.

 

That's a really neat thought, and I had never looked at that before. There are a couple mitigating factors though. First, remember that shadows/assassins get a 20% shield boost, a 2% defense boost and a 7.8% absorb boost simply through talents and other abilities. This evens things out a fair bit. Granted, powertechs get a significant absorb boost and a noticeable defense boost, while juggernauts get substantial defense boosts, so it's hard to make any definitive arguments here.

 

More importantly, the way that mods are statted does not allow us to swap absorb/defense for shield except in the augment slot (which a lot of us do; I'm running two shield augments right now, and I'll be swapping in a third once I hit the next threshold in my statting).

 

1) Dread Guard - Put up at the beginning and put up again after getting the first Force Leech to get around 60% uptime or more. This will give not only great uptime, but also allow them to be up at the most important parts of the fight. Although it's true that your healers may get a green circle that ruins the last circle, but this can be worked around.

 

I drop it at the beginning. Dropping it during Force Leech isn't an option for two reasons. First, you get red circles during Leech, and so you simply cannot be near the middle of the room while waiting out the debuff (also, AoE heals). Second, the healers get red circles on a very consistent basis. They cannot be near the middle of the room either, and due to the way that Marked for Death works, they need to constantly shift from one end of the room to the other. Even if you can place it during that phase, they can't take advantage of it for long, and even if they could stand in it, they would very quickly red circle it into obsolescence.

 

2) Kephess - I completely agree with this one as you'll get probably less than 15% uptime here. Since your entire team needs to move with you to be ready to get next to a pillar, the only real use you'll get out of Phase Walk would be right before the 3rd phase when Kephess shoots orange circles at the farthest targets.

 

He doesn't actually shoot the circles at the farthest targets. I wish! Our melee get circled all the time.

 

I do occasionally drop Phase Walk on this fight for the lulz, but because the lightning puddles drop at random locations, and because the healers have to be dynamic in their positioning due to orbs, you can't even get 15% uptime. Maybe you can get 15% uptime on Phase Walk itself, but your healers can't stand in it for more than a few seconds. Also, after the start of the fight, I'm literally in motion right up until the soft enrage (which is the part of the fight where it makes the most sense to drop Phase Walk). I take all the lightning puddles in our strategy, and I main tank the second phase. I don't really have time to do anything.

 

3) TFB 1st Phase - The tentacles always spawn in the same places and if your healers are on them, you don't even need to move to place them. You can put one up for one full tentacle and most of another one for close to 55-65% uptime since there are only 3 tentacles.

 

This is sort of doable post-2.4, when you can pick up Phase Walk without trigger in the CD. Right now, the best you can do is every-other tentacle. Additionally, you have to place Phase Walk either while tanking or before a tentacle spawns. The former is impractical unless you're really good about the Slam timing, while the latter is essentially impossible due to the larva spawns.

 

4) Titan 6 - You can put one up at the beginning and every time you are off-tanking for a total of 2-3 times (40-60% uptime). Thus, you'd have one up for every other area Titan 6 spawns. Thus, it can be used as both a teleport and a heal boon as you just cancel the skill early when you are off-tanking to help;out your co-tank. Also, I know most teams have their tanks take the closest rocks, but you don't need to hold aggro once the 2nd set of Lots of Missiles comes out so you can use it to take closer rocks to the next spawn point.

 

I'm not sure you understand how I'm using Phase Walk in this fight. :-) When I'm off-tanking, Phase Walk goes down while I'm hiding behind my rock after taking Huge Grenade. I take one of the close rocks at the next spawn location every time, which means that I'm dropping Phase Walk right on top of the boss. This allows me to sprint out, snag the adds and then teleport back. This gains us several seconds more uptime on DPSing the adds than my cotank is able to achieve, which is a lot of damage saved in Nightmare Mode. Phase Walk has a cooldown, which means that I can't just replace it somewhere that the healers can stand in.

 

Above and beyond all that, there's a lot of movement in this fight in Nightmare Mode as the group collapses in after the first Lots of Missiles, drifts to the left during Air Strike, then fans out for the second Lots of Missiles. The healers simply do not have consistent locations or even consistent rocks that they take.

 

5) Thrasher - While I definitely agree that you can only put this up the very first time for your healers, this is a pretty short fight (less than 5 minutes in general) so the 2 minute timer amounts to a 40% or more uptime.

 

You can pre-place it, but then it isn't useful as an emergency teleport (which I tend to favor as I do the wall). Even pre-placing it isn't enough because you don't really know where the snipers are going to be at the 50% mark, so things get significantly disrupted. Still, you can probably have it down and effective for about 20-30% of the boss's HP.

 

6) Cartel Warlords - You can get this up twice in the fight for about 50% or more uptime. Spray and Pray only hits for a short time so it's pretty easy to move back in once it's done and this is perhaps one of the easier fights since you can Force Speed away from Sunder to drop one when he fixates to have the breathing room needed. Even if you are not available all the time, your co-tank can be healed at least along with the rest of your team for most of the fight.

 

Movement. We've tried using Phase Walk on this fight. Believe me. We used to run double shadows, and Phase Walk does stack, so we've spent a lot of time working out how to get the most benefits from the buff. Healers have to move in this fight far more than you are assuming, since both tanks are kiting and both tanks *have* to kite in opposing areas. Depending on who is taking damage and when, the healers have to drift around the arena quite a bit.

 

This reminds me a bit of when I first got on the PTS for 2.0 and everyone had a huge amount of health. I had a bad feeling about the big numbers, but I didn't think it would foreshadow such massive spikes on NiM content. When everyone's health totals go up by about 30% and Dark Charge's heals and Blade Barrier didn't really scale, it was inevitable that this would be an issue.

 

Yeah, the non-scaling is really bad. The fact that it's a reactive mechanism is also problematic, since it loses value the closer we are to the high- and low-ends of our health pool. It's just bad design overall, and hopefully will be fixed eventually.

[Winteroreo]

As a tankasin and a shieldtech powertech I think u guys are taking the thoughts of a few to represent a community. A lot of the posts you are calling for nerds to your class are actually calling for buffs/fixes to the other tanking classes.

[Winteroreo]

Pls excuse grammatical errors but I think u get the gist of it

[KeyboardNinja]

As a tankasin and a shieldtech powertech I think u guys are taking the thoughts of a few to represent a community. A lot of the posts you are calling for nerds to your class are actually calling for buffs/fixes to the other tanking classes.

 

There's a whole thread on the tanking sub-forum entitled "NERF Guardian Tanks!" That, coupled with the oft-cited issue of Juggernauts being the best all around tank at present, is probably what this thread is in reply to.

[leto_cleon]

That's a really neat thought, and I had never looked at that before. There are a couple mitigating factors though. First, remember that shadows/assassins get a 20% shield boost, a 2% defense boost and a 7.8% absorb boost simply through talents and other abilities. This evens things out a fair bit. Granted, powertechs get a significant absorb boost and a noticeable defense boost, while juggernauts get substantial defense boosts, so it's hard to make any definitive arguments here.

 

Hmm... I'm just not sure how to do an the same comparison with all the base and active mitigation included. Summing the %tages and getting another percentage seems a littler strange. But essentially looking at the allocation of the it would be useful to see if how much a higher total mitigation chance, lowers the spike death chance. (Although that may mean raising the dtps).

 

More importantly, the way that mods are statted does not allow us to swap absorb/defense for shield except in the augment slot (which a lot of us do; I'm running two shield augments right now, and I'll be swapping in a third once I hit the next threshold in my statting).

 

On stats alone, a 20% shift in the stats means shifting 480/500/520 stat points which is pretty large. I'm not sure how large the change would be but aside from augments, absorb can also be exchange for shield by switching from the sturdiness enhancements to the bulwark ones. (Though this might drop the total defensive stat budget, but hey lower spike death chance > higher dtps)

[Fallen_Dragon]

There's a whole thread on the tanking sub-forum entitled "NERF Guardian Tanks!" That, coupled with the oft-cited issue of Juggernauts being the best all around tank at present, is probably what this thread is in reply to.

This is precisely why I started this thread and I think even with a few negative comments along the way it's actually helped with some of the misconceptions. I thank all those that have done what they can to better the experience for everyone.

[Latrodectus]

I'm not going to discuss Vanguards/Powertechs because I play the class very little and unlike most people, I can admit my ignorance when it comes to subjects I don't know. For Assassins, here's a nice list of their unique advantages that affect PvE tanking. Of course, I don't actually think they are OP, but here we go, anyways.

 

1) Require the least amount of external healing due to their abundance of self-healing.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, oh my sides.

[KeyboardNinja]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, oh my sides.

 

It's true that assassins require the least amount of external healing. It's not just because of the self-healing though.

[Dragonexadon]

This is precisely why I started this thread and I think even with a few negative comments along the way it's actually helped with some of the misconceptions. I thank all those that have done what they can to better the experience for everyone.

 

That said, I wish threads like "NERF GUARDIANS!" would die, and threads that have have theory crafting and parses rise. There is a large tank community that, do not crunch numbers but respect those that do.

 

While I will never be happy with a Guardian nerf , who wants their class nerfed?, Some aspect that were brought up by KBN seemed reasonable. Raising our cooldowns to 3 min but decreasing saber reflect cool-down for example.

 

I hope our Guardian rep gets in contact with you KBN and Kitru to help further healthy discussions for the Tanking community.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[KeyboardNinja]

That said, I wish threads like "NERF GUARDIANS!" would die, and threads that have have theory crafting and parses rise.

 

+1

 

While I will never be happy with a Guardian nerf , who wants their class nerfed?, Some aspect that were brought up by KBN seemed reasonable. Raising our cooldowns to 3 min but decreasing saber reflect cool-down for example.

 

Some of those assertions were based on math which was later found to be erroneous. I do think that adjustments need to be made, but they shouldn't be nerfs overall. Specifically, I'm coming round to Kitru's opinion that Guardian Slash / Crushing Blow should grant a shield and absorb bonus rather than flat DR, and that shield/absorb bonus should be tuned to provide higher mean mitigation than the 3% DR it currently provides. I do think that the cooldown timers should be lengthened (with Saber Reflect's cooldown reduced), but powertechs would need an additional cooldown before I would consider things "balanced".

 

Ideally, juggs should have higher mean mitigation than powertechs but lower than assassins, whereas right now juggs have lower mean mitigation than both. This would be sort of ok if they were the smoothest tanks, but they are still spikier than powertechs, which is why I think some adjustments are in order.

[leto_cleon]

I do think that the cooldown timers should be lengthened (with Saber Reflect's cooldown reduced), but powertechs would need an additional cooldown before I would consider things "balanced".

There was actually 1 fight where Jugg long cooldowns were a big disadvantage compared to Assassins. Foreman Crusher's frenzies were faster than the 3min Saber Ward and Warding Call cooldowns, forcing Juggs to tank swap. The shorter defensive cooldowns for Assasins allowed them to solo tank Foreman Crusher. Lengthing the cooldowns again... well maybe something like the Assassin Lightning Recovery that lowers the defensive cooldown when defending against attacks would be needed.

[Vaidinah]

He doesn't actually shoot the circles at the farthest targets. I wish! Our melee get circled all the time.

 

Unless something has changed (I haven't tested this in a long while), Kephess the Undying should always try to target the 3 furthest opponents with his orange circles in his final phase. Most teams I've played with have 2 tanks running around while everyone else stands under Kephess. This still leaves one circle that hits almost under Kephess, but this is easily healed through with AoE skills while the 2 tanks get the other ones. Some teams have a healer away from the group as well to take the orange circles (Scoundrel/Operative due to their mobility) to guarantee that the team under Kephess is safe from the circles. Of course, even then, everyone on the team takes a steady amount of raid damage during this phase until Kephess is dead.

[wearyKhan]

Having tanked many classes (with jugg as my main) the only thing that makes ANY tank OP is a good healer. I, personally l think that powertech tanking is easier, but then, that's personal opinion. Whenever my tank excelled, it was also down to the team behind me, not the power of the build.

 

Next time anyone wants to complain about a class, give one of the others a go, you may find that it has more to do with playstyle than balance.

[HBCentaurion]

Unless something has changed (I haven't tested this in a long while), Kephess the Undying should always try to target the 3 furthest opponents with his orange circles in his final phase. Most teams I've played with have 2 tanks running around while everyone else stands under Kephess. This still leaves one circle that hits almost under Kephess, but this is easily healed through with AoE skills while the 2 tanks get the other ones. Some teams have a healer away from the group as well to take the orange circles (Scoundrel/Operative due to their mobility) to guarantee that the team under Kephess is safe from the circles. Of course, even then, everyone on the team takes a steady amount of raid damage during this phase until Kephess is dead.

 

I think it's the top 2 on the aggro table. When we did it in NiM, we had the tanks running around but messed up our taunts (ie both tanks taunted at the same time and didn't have any taunts for 10-15 seconds) and several orange circle were placed under Kephess. The next try we did everything the same except that we coordinated our taunts (tank 1 taunts, wait 5 seconds, tank 2 taunt, wait 5 seconds etc.) and no aoe orange circles were placed under Kephess.

[LadyKohastFel]

I play all the classes (yes I have no life, lets get that out of the way early so we can focus on the issue at hand) and I visit all the class forums and lurk quite a bit and I have noticed some common threads that are the same no matter which forum I am looking at .

 

1: The class in question will always have a couple of members that will be trying to metagame the devs into nerfing every other class except theirs.

 

2: These people will also cry loud and long about how underpowered their class is and demand that the devs buff their class significantly. Often using the threat of unsubscribing in some form (solo (they will unsubscribe) or mass (every member of X class will unsubscribe) ) to try and force the issue.

 

And this phenomena makes it very difficult to actually work out which concerns are genuine and which are just metagaming to gain an advantage in the game.

 

So I suggest that the way to avoid being seen as a metagamer is to provide detailed data in the form of parse data, fraps videos and screenshots that prove your claims are genuine.

 

(Also if you think X class is OP and you are class Y then roll up a character in class X and nine times out of ten you will see first hand that this is not the case, and with the other one time out of ten when you are right you 'win' because you have a character in the OP class now.)

Edited September 5, 2013 by LadyKohastFel

[UndyingHadyn]

I play all the classes (yes I have no life, lets get that out of the way early so we can focus on the issue at hand) and I visit all the class forums and lurk quite a bit and I have noticed some common threads that are the same no matter which forum I am looking at .

 

1: The class in question will always have a couple of members that will be trying to metagame the devs into nerfing every other class except theirs.

 

2: These people will also cry loud and long about how underpowered their class is and demand that the devs buff their class significantly. Often using the threat of unsubscribing in some form (solo (they will unsubscribe) or mass (every member of X class will unsubscribe) ) to try and force the issue.

 

And this phenomena makes it very difficult to actually work out which concerns are genuine and which are just metagaming to gain an advantage in the game.

 

So I suggest that the way to avoid being seen as a metagamer is to provide detailed data in the form of parse data, fraps videos and screenshots that prove your claims are genuine.

 

(Also if you think X class is OP and you are class Y then roll up a character in class X and nine times out of ten you will see first hand that this is not the case, and with the other one time out of ten when you are right you 'win' because you have a character in the OP class now.)

 

Great post. In regards to the class xyz thing, you may even perform better than the predecessors.

 

LoL Cheers.

[XisscVekno]

As for one who played from the begining on my jugg as tank and Dps screw the assassin they were stupid op with all there little craptastic skills they had . If a jugg tank is now on the same level and or more powerfull then it was like 6 months ago then good on us . And yes I have returned to the game in the past week and find my jugg almost the same as he was when i left a about 3 to 4 months ago and now seeing new things. I think the jugg is still fine.

 

I have no love for the filthy dress wearing big eared smelly nerf herding double toothpick weilding nancy boys,now leave or I shall insult you for a second time.

 

And by the way tanking is a a art form, not everyone can tank it takes time to be good at it , even if its a easy class to play or if it is not. there is more to tanking then just hitting buttons in a rotation .

 

This post makes me laugh, Juggs by far where the inferior tank pre-2.0 and I am glad they buffed them. They sorely needed it. But they nerfed Sins with the 2.0 patch. It's one thing to scream that Juggs are fine and all tanks are viable. But when you start to do the actual mechanics of raids and find that one tank needs to have a perfect run of RNG to make it threw the fight that's a flaw in class design and right now with Sin tanks a few of the fights have to be cheesed to get them through. This is not acceptable by any standard. So Sins really need a buff from a tanking view point.

 

So you running your mouth saying to damn bad get over it with a bunch of name calling is not even remotely productive as well as supporting the fact that BioWare did good making only two viable tanks and ******** on the third.

[XisscVekno]

I play all the classes (yes I have no life, lets get that out of the way early so we can focus on the issue at hand) and I visit all the class forums and lurk quite a bit and I have noticed some common threads that are the same no matter which forum I am looking at .

 

1: The class in question will always have a couple of members that will be trying to metagame the devs into nerfing every other class except theirs.

 

2: These people will also cry loud and long about how underpowered their class is and demand that the devs buff their class significantly. Often using the threat of unsubscribing in some form (solo (they will unsubscribe) or mass (every member of X class will unsubscribe) ) to try and force the issue.

 

And this phenomena makes it very difficult to actually work out which concerns are genuine and which are just metagaming to gain an advantage in the game.

 

So I suggest that the way to avoid being seen as a metagamer is to provide detailed data in the form of parse data, fraps videos and screenshots that prove your claims are genuine.

 

(Also if you think X class is OP and you are class Y then roll up a character in class X and nine times out of ten you will see first hand that this is not the case, and with the other one time out of ten when you are right you 'win' because you have a character in the OP class now.)

 

The thing is though there are numerous posts with data confirming Sins short falls in NiM operations as well as a few videos showing a Sin/Shadow being one shot be a few bosses. As well as confirmation by many people that don't play a sin tank that they need to cheese fight mechanics to make them viable in a raid setting. Don't get me wrong the Sin even in it's current form brings a ton of tools to the table that are useful, but that doesn't make them fine or on par with the other two tanks.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

The thing is though there are numerous posts with data confirming Sins short falls in NiM operations as well as a few videos showing a Sin/Shadow being one shot be a few bosses. As well as confirmation by many people that don't play a sin tank that they need to cheese fight mechanics to make them viable in a raid setting. Don't get me wrong the Sin even in it's current form brings a ton of tools to the table that are useful, but that doesn't make them fine or on par with the other two tanks.

 

True, but I think that's an argument for tweaking Sin/Shadow Tanks, not reducing the other ones. Even if spike damage is supposed to be an issue for them, it's clearly too much of one at the moment. Not saying that you're arguing for nerfs when a slight buff would be more useful, but some are.

[Zoom_VI]

You realize that the OP of the nerd thread specifically declaring that he did it to be dramatic in order to draw more attention to the issue, outside of the sin/shadow community. I think he succeeded.

[Ottoattack]

 

You are half right and half wrong. Many, if not most people post about classes that they never played or don't understand. However others, like me, played sin and jugg tank tanks in PvP, and from experience, why would anyone in their right mind bring a sin tank when you have jugg tank that is way superior? Passive damage mitigation? Jugg better. CDs? Jugg is way better. Ability to protect healer? Jugg is better. The only aspect that sin tanks are better in is damage output, which is the least useful aspect of a tank.

 

I am not advocating nerfing jugg, but the tank classes are not on even grounds by any means.