The BattleZone Reboot Round 1 Match 11: Darth Traya vs. Darth Bane

[Darth_Omega]

Will post my argument layer, got a 6 hour journey now, only half of it with Wi-fi

 

I'll post it when I arrive rather than on the plane, 'cause I'm not going to use my laptop till I get there.

 

No rush. I have to sleep before work, so I won't be on for quite awhile. You should wait till you know you have the time to make a good argument.

[Darth_Omega]

take your time I am sure everyone will enjoy picking apart both scenarios

 

And I have to argue with people right when I wake up tomorrow, boy will that be fun...... haha

Edited August 2, 2013 by Darth_Omega

[Beniboybling]

Can I get a source and possibly a quote for the force stealth thing? I've never seen or heard of her using this ability anywhere.

She used Force concealment combined with Force stealth to hide her presence from Mical when he boarded the ship, likely for several days if not weeks. Spying on him and evenly mental communicating with him in plain sight. She then eventually revealed herself to him and proceeded to wipe his mind.

 

See all three instances below:

 

 

She also used Force concealment in a similar manner to Darth Sidious, hiding her presence from the Jedi and the Jedi Council despite sometimes being in plain sight of them.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Now, the battle scenario...

Of which there are several problems:

 

 

1. Traya will not go on the offensive, she will let her opponent come to him, backpedaling while performing various pinwheeling deflecting strikes to ward of the full force of his attack. She was also recognize his style immediately and her first priority will be to break of the duel.
    
    
   
2. Traya does not need to, and will not attempt to, dominate Bane's mind. A much more preferable course of action will be a flurry of short, quick mental attacks to catch him off guard and exploit any weaknesses it leaves. Unlike Sith Sorcery she can perform such attacks without be incapacitated, meaning she can unleash Force-based attacks while he is distracted - his defenses lowered.
    
    
   
3. It is pure assumption to believe that Traya was unfamiliar with wielding lightsabers telkientically, the fact that she was able to do so with a severely diminished connection to the Force - and did so not with one blade by with three - would suggest she was highly competent in the technique. Also noting that having a diminished connection to the Force diminishes your ability to draw on Force nexuses.
    
    
   
4. Traya can happily send all three lightsabers to attack Bane at once, and then used that as a distraction for a Force-based attack or a lightsaber attack. Imagine attempting to ward of four opponents at once. Alternatively it could be used to buy her time while she builds up a powerful Force based attack.
    
    
   
5. Traya is no fool, she isn't simply going to stand around while invisible and wait for Bane to detonate a Force wave. Any move Traya makes will have a plan attached. As soon as she renders herself invisible she will use Force speed to swiftly exit the arena while Bane is momentarily confused. As Bane searches for her Traya can lead him into a trap. It can also be used in the instance that she is wounded and needs to recover.
    
    
   
6. If Bane makes any attempt to charge Traya, she will simply blast him back with lightning, Force drain, Force push etc. she is not simply going to stand there and let Bane reengage her.
    
    
   
7. Force drain is not a power known to cause pain, having your very life essence sucked out of you likely won't cause pain but coldness and emptiness, he won't be able to call on any bolstered emotions.
   

 

Also, as a general point, Traya is perfectly capable of meeting intense demands of concentration:

 

Despite having her Force potential severely diminished she was still able to concentrate enough to lift not one, but three lightsabers and manipulate them with enough precision to be a threat to a highly skilled lightsaber duelist.

 

She was able to mask her presence in the Force, hide herself from vision, presumably muffle the sound of her movement, telepathically communicate with another Force user and erase his memories simultaneously.

 

In the center of the Trayus Core, she was able to peer into any future that the Exile asked of her with remarkable accuracy - despite being severely wounded and close to death.

 

She did all this with little effort or strain, think what she could be capable of if she actually tried.

[Beniboybling]

I am also aware of Trakata, as well as its dangers if she does so it could risk her life, but it could throw him off balance just long enough for her to attempt to get away. This being said I still do not see her staying away for very long. If she was as good at that as people say I wonder why we never see her employ such a tactic in combat, she either decimates with her force powers or she is forced into both melee and force engagement and in a melee engagement her body is frail enough that a punch to the gut could likely slump her over and leave her vunerable she has shown considerable physical frailty something that against a physical power house can and likely would prove fatal.

Your talking as if there is an entire novel written about Traya with tons of lightsaber duels in it. There is not. There is one duel, against Meetra Surik. And of course we don't see Traya keeping her at bay with Force powers as that wouldn't work with KOTOR II game mechanics.

 

Though you should take not that despite having only one hand, Traya still managed to go toe-to-toe with a Jedi who had presumably achieved a high level of skill in all seven forms of lightsaber combat - which she learned remarkably quickly. Effectively she became a Battlemaster. Yet Traya still managed to handle her. So where you are getting these misguided conceptions that Traya - a Sith Lord - is somehow an amateur duelist I don't know.

 

Oh and physical frailty eh? Punch in the gut. How's

for physical frailty. I think Traya can handle a punch in the gut, that is if Bane lands any kind of physical attack which Traya has shown herself to be exceptionally capable of dodging.

 

I think people are also forgetting just how powerful a Force user Traya is. She decimated all three members of the Jedi Council, dropped dozens of Sith Assassins without raising a finger, Force choked Sion with ease and totally schooled the Exile's Lost Jedi. She has a considerable power advantage over Bane.

[Beniboybling]

A more plausible scenario:

 

The duel begins, Bane rushes to engage Traya who falls back onto a Makashi/Soresu hybrid - backpedaling furiously as she attempts to redirect and deflect his powerful attacks. But she quickly finds herself overwhelmed and releases a Force push than sends Bane flying back.

 

She then proceeds to unleash Force drain upon him which he is unable to defend himself against, however Bane manages to disrupt the attack with a Force-based attack of his own and attempts to close the gap.

 

Realizing she cannot subdue him with Force drain alone Traya renders herself invisible. Bane attempts to flush her out with a Force wave but she is already out of range. She takes a seat on the throne () and enters state of meditation. Momentarily distracting Bane so his back is turned she launches three lightsabers at him telekinetically.

 

While preoccupied by the lightsabers Traya scouts out his weaknesses using shatterpoint and begins building up Force energy. Then, at the opportune moment, she unleashes a potent fork of Force lightning that hits Bane were he is weakest, momentarily paralyzing him. In this moment of weakness she uses the lightsabers to finish him off.

 

An alternate scenario, in which Traya does not fall back on Force concealment, is to simply push a Force based engagement. Overwhelming him with Force lightning and Force drain barrages while holding him back if he attempts to charge with well timed Force pushes. Falling into one of the Force Forms Traya will be in her element as a Consular, simply outclassing Bane's on Force capabilities, and with her siphoning his Force energies he will only grow weaker.

[Darth_Omega]

A more plausible scenario:

 

The duel begins, Bane rushes to engage Traya who falls back onto a Makashi/Soresu hybrid - backpedaling furiously as she attempts to redirect and deflect his powerful attacks. But she quickly finds herself overwhelmed and releases a Force push than sends Bane flying back.

 

She then proceeds to unleash Force drain upon him which he is unable to defend himself against, however Bane manages to disrupt the attack with a Force-based attack of his own and attempts to close the gap.

 

Realizing she cannot subdue him with Force drain alone Traya renders herself invisible. Bane attempts to flush her out with a Force wave but she is already out of range. She takes a seat on the throne () and enters state of meditation. Momentarily distracting Bane so his back is turned she launches three lightsabers at him telekinetically.

 

While preoccupied by the lightsabers Traya scouts out his weaknesses using shatterpoint and begins building up Force energy. Then, at the opportune moment, she unleashes a potent fork of Force lightning that hits Bane were he is weakest, momentarily paralyzing him. In this moment of weakness she uses the lightsabers to finish him off.

 

An alternate scenario, in which Traya does not fall back on Force concealment, is to simply push a Force based engagement. Overwhelming him with Force lightning and Force drain barrages while holding him back if he attempts to charge with well timed Force pushes. Falling into one of the Force Forms Traya will be in her element as a Consular, simply outclassing Bane's on Force capabilities, and with her siphoning his Force energies he will only grow weaker.

 

You underestimate Bane and overestimate Traya.

 

1. You merely assume that a force push would so easily drive Bane back.

 

2. That's basically how I said it.

 

3. First off, its unlikely that Traya can do this so easily in the middle of a battle, but even if she could, using the force as heavily as she would need to to control 3 lightsabers all at once, would give away her location allowing Bane to sense her.

 

Bane's fast. She couldn't stay back so easily.

[Beniboybling]

You underestimate Bane and overestimate Traya.

 

1. You merely assume that a force push would so easily drive Bane back.

 

2. That's basically how I said it.

 

3. First off, its unlikely that Traya can do this so easily in the middle of a battle, but even if she could, using the force as heavily as she would need to to control 3 lightsabers all at once, would give away her location allowing Bane to sense her.

 

Bane's fast. She couldn't stay back so easily.

Bane is not the immovable rock, have you ever come across an instance in which a Force push has not driven its opponent back? I'm sure I can provide many examples. Bearing in mind that Traya is most likely the more powerful.

 

Telekinetically lifting and manipulating lightsabers with the Force will not require a great deal of Force energy as lightsabers are small and light. Precise applications of the Force - e.g. Alter Enviroment - usually require minimal amounts of Force energy. All she would require is concentration - entering a meditative trance would grant her that.

 

Traya is fast too, and if he attempts to charge her - a potent Force based attack will stop him in his tracks. Unless Bane is too fast for Traya to see then it is not a point worth bringing up.

[Darth_Omega]

Of which there are several problems:

 

 

1. Traya will not go on the offensive, she will let her opponent come to him, backpedaling while performing various pinwheeling deflecting strikes to ward of the full force of his attack. She was also recognize his style immediately and her first priority will be to break of the duel.
    
    
   
2. Traya does not need to, and will not attempt to, dominate Bane's mind. A much more preferable course of action will be a flurry of short, quick mental attacks to catch him off guard and exploit any weaknesses it leaves. Unlike Sith Sorcery she can perform such attacks without be incapacitated, meaning she can unleash Force-based attacks while he is distracted - his defenses lowered.
    
    
   
3. It is pure assumption to believe that Traya was unfamiliar with wielding lightsabers telkientically, the fact that she was able to do so with a severely diminished connection to the Force - and did so not with one blade by with three - would suggest she was highly competent in the technique. Also noting that having a diminished connection to the Force diminishes your ability to draw on Force nexuses.
    
    
   
4. Traya can happily send all three lightsabers to attack Bane at once, and then used that as a distraction for a Force-based attack or a lightsaber attack. Imagine attempting to ward of four opponents at once. Alternatively it could be used to buy her time while she builds up a powerful Force based attack.
    
    
   
5. Traya is no fool, she isn't simply going to stand around while invisible and wait for Bane to detonate a Force wave. Any move Traya makes will have a plan attached. As soon as she renders herself invisible she will use Force speed to swiftly exit the arena while Bane is momentarily confused. As Bane searches for her Traya can lead him into a trap. It can also be used in the instance that she is wounded and needs to recover.
    
    
   
6. If Bane makes any attempt to charge Traya, she will simply blast him back with lightning, Force drain, Force push etc. she is not simply going to stand there and let Bane reengage her.
    
    
   
7. Force drain is not a power known to cause pain, having your very life essence sucked out of you likely won't cause pain but coldness and emptiness, he won't be able to call on any bolstered emotions.
   

 

Also, as a general point, Traya is perfectly capable of meeting intense demands of concentration:

 

Despite having her Force potential severely diminished she was still able to concentrate enough to lift not one, but three lightsabers and manipulate them with enough precision to be a threat to a highly skilled lightsaber duelist.

 

She was able to mask her presence in the Force, hide herself from vision, presumably muffle the sound of her movement, telepathically communicate with another Force user and erase his memories simultaneously.

 

In the center of the Trayus Core, she was able to peer into any future that the Exile asked of her with remarkable accuracy - despite being severely wounded and close to death.

 

She did all this with little effort or strain, think what she could be capable of if she actually tried.

 

1. Fair enough.

 

2. I never said she tries to dominate him, but searched for his fears to use against him.

 

3. Never said she was unfamiliar with the style, I said Bane was unfamiliar with it.

 

4. You assume that Traya can just easily give those lightsabers a mind of their own, and then do her own thing.

 

5. I implied that he sent out a wave immediately, not giving her enough time to escape. You assume she could escape so easily in the midst of battle.

 

6. You forget that Bane is very powerful and fast, Traya can't hold him back as easily as you imply.

 

7. I know its very unpleasant, but you are probably right.

[Darth_Omega]

Bane is not the immovable rock, have you ever come across an instance in which a Force push has not driven its opponent back? I'm sure I can provide many examples. Bearing in mind that Traya is most likely the more powerful.

 

Telekinetically lifting and manipulating lightsabers with the Force will not require a great deal of Force energy as lightsabers are small and light. Precise applications of the Force - e.g. Alter Enviroment - usually require minimal amounts of Force energy. All she would require is concentration - entering a meditative trance would grant her that.

 

Traya is fast too, and if he attempts to charge her - a potent Force based attack will stop him in his tracks. Unless Bane is too fast for Traya to see then it is not a point worth bringing up.

 

I don't believe Traya is more powerful. Ive seen no argument to support it.

 

Yes, intense concentration. Leaving her body vulnerable for attack.

 

Bane is fast, and reacts to things very quickly.

[marcelo_sdk]

Bane is more powerful in the Force. Darth Traya may be ahead of him in the Sith list, but such position is highly questionable, and let's remember, she wasn't that powerful with the Force. Dominating Sion? The only thing he knew was to channel his pain to keep himself alive. He ever displayed any powerful Force skills? No. He was a great fighter, but about Force power, we know little about him.

 

Compared to Nihilus, Traya was ridiculously weak. The Sith Lord surpassed her by far in all Force powers, not just Force Drain, cause I know someone will say that was his only skill. Ultimately, she was defeated by Surik in a Dark Side nexus. Let's remember, Surik was highly incapacitated, both physically and mentally. Yet she defeated Traya with ease. The same Surik, who was completely overpowered by Darth Nyriss and was leagues below Revan.

 

Darth Traya is, perhaps, the greatest character of EU, but don't let your like for her cloud your judgment.

[LadyKulvax]

Defeated by Darth Nyriss in a place where it is very difficult to call upon the Light Side and not to mention Revan was also empowered in the Dark Side nexus at Dromund Kaas, as was Nyriss, that whole scenario is not a fair judge of power at all.

 

Surik is hardly leagues below Revan, when you compare force abilities.

Edited August 2, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

TBH, I don't see how effective the telekinetic lightsabers will be. While they could surprise Bane, I don't see Bane having to spend a great deal of time dealing with them.

 

Remember, Darth Bane was able to deflect torrents of rain to keep himself dry. Three lightsabers shouldn't be too difficult.

 

However, it does give Traya time to disappear and formulate a plan.

[LadyKulvax]

..She was simply tired now, exhausted beyond reprieve, she had fought all this way enduring this hellish planet and now she had finally done it. Or so she thought, she had barely noticed the hiss of an activated lightsaber when she saw three purple rays shoot at her almost faster than she could react, the only defence she could mount quick enough was to simply drop and roll, as the blades stabbed at her place on the ground it took a mental battle with the weakened Sith to cease their momentum and allow her to destroy all three hilts in one swipe of her own Cyan blade.

 

This was the last offence the Sith had left to mount...

 

As you can see, she could mount an attack at an extreme speed and this was barely noticed by someone with extremely proficient precognitive senses.

[marcelo_sdk]

Defeated by Darth Nyriss in a place where it is very difficult to call upon the Light Side and not to mention Revan was also empowered in the Dark Side nexus at Dromund Kaas, as was Nyriss, that whole scenario is not a fair judge of power at all.

 

Surik is hardly leagues below Revan, when you compare force abilities.

 

Right, and it's easy to call the Light Side on Malachor V. Both faced Surik in a Dark Side nexus, one was defeated with ease, the other overpowered the Jedi, I don't see how we can conclude anything different tha Nyriss > Traya.

[Aurbere]

As you can see, she could mount an attack at an extreme speed and this was barely noticed by someone with extremely proficient precognitive senses.

 

Hmm. Interesting. Good to know.

[LadyKulvax]

Right, and it's easy to call the Light Side on Malachor V. Both faced Surik in a Dark Side nexus, one was defeated with ease, the other overpowered the Jedi, I don't see how we can conclude anything different tha Nyriss > Traya.

 

Actually Dromund Kaas had a miasma of Dark Side energy that covered the planet making it much more difficult to reach out to the Light Side than on Malachor V.

 

Exar Kun could still call on the Light Side deep in the tombs of Korriban, it took Freedon Nadd actively blocking his attempt to reach out to the Light and Master Baas to stop him.

 

If she had been effected on Malachor V the same way any other Jedi would be, she would have died or turned, she didn't, there is a massive difference in being ill and a seeming inability to perform at all.

Edited August 2, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Darth_Omega]

As you can see, she could mount an attack at an extreme speed and this was barely noticed by someone with extremely proficient precognitive senses.

 

Is that the Exile in this quote?

[LadyKulvax]

Is that the Exile in this quote?

 

It's Traya vs the Jedi Exile in the Trayus Core yes, it is right after severing Traya's connection to the force.

Edited August 2, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Darth_Omega]

It's Traya vs the Jedi Exile in the Trayus Core yes, it is right after severing Traya's connection to the force.

 

Impressive.

 

However its important to note that the exile was nearly out of energy.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Darth_Omega

[Darth_Omega]

TBH, I don't see how effective the telekinetic lightsabers will be. While they could surprise Bane, I don't see Bane having to spend a great deal of time dealing with them.

 

Remember, Darth Bane was able to deflect torrents of rain to keep himself dry. Three lightsabers shouldn't be too difficult.

 

However, it does give Traya time to disappear and formulate a plan.

 

Agreed. But Traya leaving will give them both time to re establish their energy and formulate a plan. This would just really complicate things.

[LadyKulvax]

Impressive.

 

Howeveri ts important to note that the exile was nearly out of energy.

 

True, that may have slowed her reaction time down.

Edited August 2, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

Ok beni you called me out saying its like we have a book on traya and we don't we only really have the one fight, well guess what if she didn't do it in the only fight we see her have there is no reason to believe she will do it here. The point is you guys are saying she is going to display an ability or a tactic that she has never displayed in the entirety of her character. This is the very definition of overestimating a characters abilities by giving them feats they never displayed.

 

Her stabbing herself didn't show very good resistance, she ended up slumped over on the floor just like the exile did so all you showed was her getting incapacitated no resistance shown or ability to take physical blows.

 

Also traya already said everyone in that era were amateurish by the standards of the ancient sith so technically even Surik was an amateur saber duelist, Bane on the other hand does not have the same stigma placed on him nor do any of the other Banite sith. So for this reason alone along with the force speed differences shown and the physically limited Traya there is no reason to believe that she can stand up to his saber attacks and her getting away is pure speculation based on NONE of her feats as she has never done this or attempted to do this in her entire exsistance as a character we can not speculate that she would do so now.

Edited August 2, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Bane is more powerful in the Force. Darth Traya may be ahead of him in the Sith list, but such position is highly questionable, and let's remember, she wasn't that powerful with the Force. Dominating Sion? The only thing he knew was to channel his pain to keep himself alive. He ever displayed any powerful Force skills? No. He was a great fighter, but about Force power, we know little about him.

 

Compared to Nihilus, Traya was ridiculously weak. The Sith Lord surpassed her by far in all Force powers, not just Force Drain, cause I know someone will say that was his only skill. Ultimately, she was defeated by Surik in a Dark Side nexus. Let's remember, Surik was highly incapacitated, both physically and mentally. Yet she defeated Traya with ease. The same Surik, who was completely overpowered by Darth Nyriss and was leagues below Revan.

 

Darth Traya is, perhaps, the greatest character of EU, but don't let your like for her cloud your judgment.

Wait what?

 

Darth Sion, not a powerful Sith Lord? Hasn't displayed any powerful Force skills?! How about achieving immortality through sheer power of the dark side? People seem to forget that the only reason Sion was able to keep himself alive was through sheer will of the Force, people seem happy to tout Vader's accomplishments surviving this that and the other and coming back from the dead, why shouldn't Sion receive similar accolades?

 

He is a extremely powerful dark sider and should by no means be underestimated. Yet for some bizarre reason you seem to find holding one's body together through the power of the dark side a trivial matter.

 

Compared to a gosh darn black hole in the Force Traya was ridiculously weak? Was not everyone? Even Darth Sidious and Luke Skywalker would have trouble defeating the gobble monster. Or are we forgetting that it was this wound in the Force that ravaged and entire planet. Another Sith Lord you grossly underestimate.

 

And finally, your making the assumption that Nyriss was some chump Sith Lord who could only perform a few cheap parlor tricks before getting her ***-whooped by Revan.

 

What happened to fair and impartial comparison of abilities?

[Darth_Omega]

Ok beni you called me out saying its like we have a book on traya and we don't we only really have the one fight, well guess what if she didn't do it in the only fight we see her have there is no reason to believe she will do it here. The point is you guys are saying she is going to display an ability or a tactic that she has never displayed in the entirety of her character. This is the very definition of overestimating a characters abilities by giving them feats they never displayed.

 

Her stabbing herself didn't show very good resistance, she ended up slumped over on the floor just like the exile did so all you showed was her getting incapacitated no resistance shown or ability to take physical blows.

 

Also traya already said everyone in that era were amateurish by the standards of the ancient sith so technically even Surik was an amateur saber duelist, Bane on the other hand does not have the same stigma placed on him nor do any of the other Banite sith. So for this reason alone along with the force speed differences shown and the physically limited Traya there is no reason to believe that she can stand up to his saber attacks and her getting away is pure speculation based on NONE of her feats as she has never done this or attempted to do this in her entire exsistance as a character we can not speculate that she would do so now.

 

We should definately take into account that Traya has never shown to be able to vanish during a fight. This shouldn't be allowed since we don't know how it could actually be played out.