The BattleZone Reboot Round 1 Match 11: Darth Traya vs. Darth Bane

[Beniboybling]

Ok beni you called me out saying its like we have a book on traya and we don't we only really have the one fight, well guess what if she didn't do it in the only fight we see her have there is no reason to believe she will do it here. The point is you guys are saying she is going to display an ability or a tactic that she has never displayed in the entirety of her character. This is the very definition of overestimating a characters abilities by giving them feats they never displayed.

 

Her stabbing herself didn't show very good resistance, she ended up slumped over on the floor just like the exile did so all you showed was her getting incapacitated no resistance shown or ability to take physical blows.

 

Also traya already said everyone in that era were amateurish by the standards of the ancient sith so technically even Surik was an amateur saber duelist, Bane on the other hand does not have the same stigma placed on him nor do any of the other Banite sith. So for this reason alone along with the force speed differences shown and the physically limited Traya there is no reason to believe that she can stand up to his saber attacks and her getting away is pure speculation based on NONE of her feats as she has never done this or attempted to do this in her entire exsistance as a character we can not speculate that she would do so now.

But she has... Traya has shown highly skilled proficiency with Force concealment, force stealth, shatterpoint and the ability to wield lightsaber telekinetically. And you have failed to put forward any reasons for why she would not be capable of replicating this in a battle scenario, other than the fact that game mechanics don't allow it.

 

Pure speculation? I see it as pure speculation to assume that the KOTOR lightsaber duelists were amateurs, yet for some strange reason the lightsaber duelists of Bane's era are pros? What is this based upon?

 

P.S. The link I provided was drawing your attention to Traya's incredible ability in Force healing - which she could use to quickly heal any injuries that Bane may inflict on her through punches, kicks etc.

[Beniboybling]

We should definately take into account that Traya has never shown to be able to vanish during a fight. This shouldn't be allowed since we don't know how it could actually be played out.

You can't possibly advocate barring Traya's abilities simply because she has not shown them in a duel which she would have been prevented from doing by game mechanics.

 

At least give an in-universe reason for why she wouldn't be able to do this...

[tunewalker]

Wait what?

 

Darth Sion, not a powerful Sith Lord? Hasn't displayed any powerful Force skills?! How about achieving immortality through sheer power of the dark side? People seem to forget that the only reason Sion was able to keep himself alive was through sheer will of the Force, people seem happy to tout Vader's accomplishments surviving this that and the other and coming back from the dead, why shouldn't Sion receive similar accolades?

 

He is a extremely powerful dark sider and should by no means be underestimated. Yet for some bizarre reason you seem to find holding one's body together through the power of the dark side a trivial matter.

 

Compared to a gosh darn black hole in the Force Traya was ridiculously weak? Was not everyone? Even Darth Sidious and Luke Skywalker would have trouble defeating the gobble monster. Or are we forgetting that it was this wound in the Force that ravaged and entire planet. Another Sith Lord you grossly underestimate.

 

And finally, your making the assumption that Nyriss was some chump Sith Lord who could only perform a few cheap parlor tricks before getting her ***-whooped by Revan.

 

What happened to fair and impartial comparison of abilities?

 

Just a note as to why I do not feel sions is as impressive as vader's. Sion accomplished what he did by staying angry all the time, Vader could not stay angry all the time, by the way the dark side heals sion technically didn't do anything special since its just a matter of staying angry all the time and you will never lose that power.

 

 

Now the big difference here is in the Shadows of the Empire novel Vader noted that after each healing session some of his breathing ability was coming back, Vader was beginning to display an ability never before seen in dark side healing, the ability to affect permanent healing. Vader surmised that given enough time he would be able to heal himself completely. To me this is more impressive as until vader no dark side healing had ever had any kind of permanent affect it always required continual rage and concentration.

 

Just a thought on all that take it what you will.

[tunewalker]

But she has... Traya has shown highly skilled proficiency with Force concealment, force stealth, shatterpoint and the ability to wield lightsaber telekinetically. And you have failed to put forward any reasons for why she would not be capable of replicating this in a battle scenario, other than the fact that game mechanics don't allow it.

 

Pure speculation? I see it as pure speculation to assume that the KOTOR lightsaber duelists were amateurs, yet for some strange reason the lightsaber duelists of Bane's era are pros? What is this based upon?

 

P.S. The link I provided was drawing your attention to Traya's incredible ability in Force healing - which she could use to quickly heal any injuries that Bane may inflict on her through punches, kicks etc.

 

Force healing is not resist pain, she may be able to heal a wound but the pain and reaction to it will still be the same.

 

I don't doubt that she has those abilities and never said she didn't, but here is the problem with not using them in any kind of cut scene or anything. Many people who can use force concealment and force stealth can easily be located by those that are actively looking for them its one of the stigma's of the ability and since she has never used it in combat we have no reason to believe she has surpassed that stigma. You are assuming she can get passed all this and using "game mechanics" as an excuse yours is as much speculation as mine.

 

1:35 is why I think she is amateurish, bane on the other hand was the start of the banite sith who would lead to some of the most exceptional duelists in star wars history to think the man that started it all and was known for his skill and prowess specifically with a lightsaber was like what Kreia describes both herself and meetra to be would be nearly impossible for his training to produce such fine duelists.

[Beniboybling]

Just a note as to why I do not feel sions is as impressive as vader's. Sion accomplished what he did by staying angry all the time, Vader could not stay angry all the time, by the way the dark side heals sion technically didn't do anything special since its just a matter of staying angry all the time and you will never lose that power.

 

 

Now the big difference here is in the Shadows of the Empire novel Vader noted that after each healing session some of his breathing ability was coming back, Vader was beginning to display an ability never before seen in dark side healing, the ability to affect permanent healing. Vader surmised that given enough time he would be able to heal himself completely. To me this is more impressive as until vader no dark side healing had ever had any kind of permanent affect it always required continual rage and concentration.

 

Just a thought on all that take it what you will.

So all you need to do to be immortal is be in constant pain? I hardly think so. Pain is a means of unlocking dark side power, if that power is not there you can be as angry and as in as much pain as you like but nothing is going to happen.

 

Furthermore Vader didn't need to be in constant pain and anger because his injuries were trivial compared to Sions - who's bones had fractured hundreds of times, and body was a web of scars and wounds. He needed to be angry all the time just to keep is body together. So in fact, Sion is more impressive, because Vader was only able to keep himself alive through the Force for a short amount of time, while Sion could seemingly do this indefinitely.

 

Though I'm not saying that Vader is less powerful than Sion, but only that he should be given the proper respect.

[LadyKulvax]

Sion was literally the undead, he wasn't just injured, he was dead, it took the Dark Side to keep him alive, he was so immersed in it that despite being literally a walking corpse, he continued, he was a Dark Side zombie that was so filled with rage that he could sustain his own will and power in this corpse.

 

This is EXTREMELY impressive as we know from the Plagueis novel that the midichlorians themselves vanish from a body upon death, it literally becomes forceless, he had managed to surpass that natural degradation by becoming a Dark Side essence still encased in a dead body, a walking corpse, that is MUCH more impressive than a Dark Sider being able to keep himself alive.

Edited August 2, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

So all you need to do to be immortal is be in constant pain? I hardly think so. Pain is a means of unlocking dark side power, if that power is not there you can be as angry and as in as much pain as you like but nothing is going to happen.

 

Furthermore Vader didn't need to be in constant pain and anger because his injuries were trivial compared to Sions - who's bones had fractured hundreds of times, and body was a web of scars and wounds. He needed to be angry all the time just to keep is body together. So in fact, Sion is more impressive, because Vader was only able to keep himself alive through the Force for a short amount of time, while Sion could seemingly do this indefinitely.

 

Though I'm not saying that Vader is less powerful than Sion, but only that he should be given the proper respect.

 

"Although it was believed that malevolent Force-users could not employ Force healing, this was a wrong assumption. The dark side could in fact be used to heal, but, twisted by the dark side, such power came at a terrible price

 

The most 'benign', to the user at least, of these side effects was the healing being temporary, and requiring renewed applications or constant concentration to remain active."

 

 

All Sion did was show that he could use force healing and that he could keep up that concentration forever, it was no more impressive then standard force healing, but it was an impressive display of willpower and concentration.

[Beniboybling]

"Although it was believed that malevolent Force-users could not employ Force healing, this was a wrong assumption. The dark side could in fact be used to heal, but, twisted by the dark side, such power came at a terrible price

 

The most 'benign', to the user at least, of these side effects was the healing being temporary, and requiring renewed applications or constant concentration to remain active."

 

 

All Sion did was show that he could use force healing and that he could keep up that concentration forever, it was no more impressive then standard force healing, but it was an impressive display of willpower and concentration.

Force healing? Does this body look at all healed to you? In the slightest? Sion did not use Force healing to keep himself alive, he used Force rage to keep himself alive. Much like Vader did when he almost died, and like Malgus did when buried under rubble. Noting that this is why when in proximity to a dark side nexus, Sion became unstoppable. Dark side nexuses do not bolster willpower or concentration, but Force ability.

 

Regardless, your making the incorrect assumption that Force healing does not require a considerable deal of Force energy. It does. See Master Fay, it took the last reserves of her considerable Force energy to keep Obi-Wan alive - and it was only thought that exceptional power that she could have saved herself.

[tunewalker]

Force healing? Does this body look at all healed to you? In the slightest? Sion did not use Force healing to keep himself alive, he used Force rage to keep himself alive. Much like Vader did when he almost died, and like Malgus did when buried under rubble. Noting that this is why when in proximity to a dark side nexus, Sion became unstoppable. Dark side nexuses do not bolster willpower or concentration, but Force ability.

 

Regardless, your making the incorrect assumption that Force healing does not require a considerable deal of Force energy. It does. See Master Fay, it took the last reserves of her considerable Force energy to keep Obi-Wan alive - and it was only thought that exceptional power that she could have saved herself.

 

the parts that matter are healed, and yes it does require force energy, but at the same time I argue as long as the concentration can be kept up the power would come itself, as is described on the Wookie page darth sions power was driven by his rage and pain the more he was injured the more pain he felt the more pain he felt the more force power he could draw on to fuel his healing it was a never ending cycle. So yes he was powerful I just don't think we can assess how powerful in anything other then force healing.

[Beniboybling]

the parts that matter are healed, and yes it does require force energy, but at the same time I argue as long as the concentration can be kept up the power would come itself, as is described on the Wookie page darth sions power was driven by his rage and pain the more he was injured the more pain he felt the more pain he felt the more force power he could draw on to fuel his healing it was a never ending cycle. So yes he was powerful I just don't think we can assess how powerful in anything other then force healing.

The parts that matter are healed. So like, I don't know, his bones? Wait no? His bones are fractured in hundreds of difference places? His bones are not held together through Force healing but through sheer power of the Force? Please point to me which 'important parts' of Sion's body are healed. Because I see none.

 

Nowhere at all has it the word 'Force healing' been mentioned in relation to Sion, that is pure speculation on your part. So let's stop mentioning the word Force healing, when it is clearly not a power in Darth Sion's repertoire.

 

Your understanding of how the dark side works also seems to be flawed. Allow me to explain. Rage, anger, pain etc. are passions, through these emotions a dark sider draws on the dark side of the Force. So by saying Darth Sion draws on his rage and his pain to keep himself alive is saying that Sion draws on the dark side of the Force to keep himself alive - hence why he is empowered by dark side nexuses.

 

Being in more pain doesn't change anything, in the end he has a limited well of Force energy to draw on. Being in more pain may increase his ability to draw on that power but in the end it does not increase his Force affinity in the slightest.

 

Simply put, Sion keeps himself alive by channeling vasts amounts of dark side energy through his body - this means he is a considerably powerful Force user. Simple as. Really I don't know how people can wave around Vader using his rage to survive colossal injury, and Malgus being able to emerge from being buried alive and proceeding to slaughter two Jedi, and then fail to be impressed by Sion who has outclassed then both.

[Beniboybling]

Can we get back on topic? I don't think anyone here doubts that Sion was a considerably powerful darksider. Being a Dark Lord of the Sith who has slaughtered countless Jedi alone should make this clear.

 

And being dwarfed by Darth Nihilus is nothing to be ashamed off, Bane would not stand a chance either.

[LadyKulvax]

Sion didn't heal anything because his body was dead.

[Aurbere]

How did we get to talking about Sion? Let's focus on the task at hand, shall we? I don't think Sion really factors into this whole thing.

[StarSquirrel]

Simple as. Really I don't know how people can wave around Vader using his rage to survive colossal injury, and Malgus being able to emerge from being buried alive and proceeding to slaughter two Jedi, and then fail to be impressed by Sion who has outclassed then both.

 

I'm suitably impressed. However, since he uses a lot of the power he channels to hold his body together, doesn't that limit how much he has to use on other things?

 

(sorry for asking as it is off-topic but I'm curious.)

Edited August 2, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

I'm suitably impressed. However, since he uses a lot of the power he channels to hold his body together, doesn't that limit how much he has to use on other things?

 

(sorry for asking as it is off-topic but I'm curious.)

Yes and no. Yes (speculatively) in terms of using Force powers but no in the sense of passive Force abilities like Force barrier which is determined simply by the strength of the Force user.

 

Of course this is all speculation. All I see in the scenario where Traya chokes Sion is a visible demonstration of the fact that 'your strength is no greater than the strength of my hand.'

[tunewalker]

The parts that matter are healed. So like, I don't know, his bones? Wait no? His bones are fractured in hundreds of difference places? His bones are not held together through Force healing but through sheer power of the Force? Please point to me which 'important parts' of Sion's body are healed. Because I see none.

 

Nowhere at all has it the word 'Force healing' been mentioned in relation to Sion, that is pure speculation on your part. So let's stop mentioning the word Force healing, when it is clearly not a power in Darth Sion's repertoire.

 

Your understanding of how the dark side works also seems to be flawed. Allow me to explain. Rage, anger, pain etc. are passions, through these emotions a dark sider draws on the dark side of the Force. So by saying Darth Sion draws on his rage and his pain to keep himself alive is saying that Sion draws on the dark side of the Force to keep himself alive - hence why he is empowered by dark side nexuses.

 

Being in more pain doesn't change anything, in the end he has a limited well of Force energy to draw on. Being in more pain may increase his ability to draw on that power but in the end it does not increase his Force affinity in the slightest.

 

Simply put, Sion keeps himself alive by channeling vasts amounts of dark side energy through his body - this means he is a considerably powerful Force user. Simple as. Really I don't know how people can wave around Vader using his rage to survive colossal injury, and Malgus being able to emerge from being buried alive and proceeding to slaughter two Jedi, and then fail to be impressed by Sion who has outclassed then both.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_healing

 

"Perhaps the most curious example of the dark side's cost of living is the case of the ancient Sith Lord Darth Sion, the Lord of Pain. Sion could focus on his own pain and agony, using it to fuel the dark side and recover from grievous wounds nearly instantly. Sion's capability with this technique appeared almost perfect, but over time his injuries accumulated to such a degree that he was in constant agony. This, however, he welcomed, as it fueled his power. To accomplish this task, he channeled the Force constantly to literally hold his shattered body together. Fortunately for Sion, it was very much a circular power: more pain beget more power, more power beget more capacity, more capacity beget more pain. Medical staff examining his body concluded that it should be pulling itself apart, so damaged was his physical shell. Sion died only when Meetra Surik sowed doubt in Sion's mind, convincing him that his Force-dependent "life" was not worth existing."

 

When are you guys going to learn I do my research before making claims?

Not like I needed to do the research it was obvious from playing the game. Holding bones together.... sounds like dark side healing, healed lungs same blood vessels same. Also the force doesn't work like it does in games your ability to draw on the force is limited by only 2 things the first being your affinity for it and the second being your ability to concentrate and/or utilize your emotions for it. Most force users start to diminish over a course of a fight do to exhaustion and the way they draw on the force becoming more and more difficult thus giving them less and less ability to call on it and weaker and weaker abilities. Do to the way sion draws on the force on the other hand he doesn't have such a stigma his force power does not falter because his constant pain and rage allows him to draw on the same amount of energy all the time. So him being healed for decades essentially indicates only the same amount of affinity as it would require to heal it for a few seconds and other then that its his ability to constantly draw on that power that keeps him alive.

 

Obviously this doesn't mean he is by any means weak as the injuries he is healing are insanely severe and doing so means he is incredibly powerful, just not in comparison to Vader or Malgus.

[Beniboybling]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_healing

 

"Perhaps the most curious example of the dark side's cost of living is the case of the ancient Sith Lord Darth Sion, the Lord of Pain. Sion could focus on his own pain and agony, using it to fuel the dark side and recover from grievous wounds nearly instantly. Sion's capability with this technique appeared almost perfect, but over time his injuries accumulated to such a degree that he was in constant agony. This, however, he welcomed, as it fueled his power. To accomplish this task, he channeled the Force constantly to literally hold his shattered body together. Fortunately for Sion, it was very much a circular power: more pain beget more power, more power beget more capacity, more capacity beget more pain. Medical staff examining his body concluded that it should be pulling itself apart, so damaged was his physical shell. Sion died only when Meetra Surik sowed doubt in Sion's mind, convincing him that his Force-dependent "life" was not worth existing."

 

When are you guys going to learn I do my research before making claims?

Not like I needed to do the research it was obvious from playing the game. Holding bones together.... sounds like dark side healing, healed lungs same blood vessels same. Also the force doesn't work like it does in games your ability to draw on the force is limited by only 2 things the first being your affinity for it and the second being your ability to concentrate and/or utilize your emotions for it. Most force users start to diminish over a course of a fight do to exhaustion and the way they draw on the force becoming more and more difficult thus giving them less and less ability to call on it and weaker and weaker abilities. Do to the way sion draws on the force on the other hand he doesn't have such a stigma his force power does not falter because his constant pain and rage allows him to draw on the same amount of energy all the time. So him being healed for decades essentially indicates only the same amount of affinity as it would require to heal it for a few seconds and other then that its his ability to constantly draw on that power that keeps him alive.

 

Obviously this doesn't mean he is by any means weak as the injuries he is healing are insanely severe and doing so means he is incredibly powerful, just not in comparison to Vader or Malgus.

I'd like to point out that that excerpt from Wookieepedia is not supported by any sourcebooks of any kind so it is as speculative as your own assumption. However if simply funneling your body with a constant stream of dark side energy is defined as Force healing then fine. It doesn't change the fact that it requires immense amounts of dark side energy to sustain and is not just 'standard force healing' which for some reason in your opinion does not require a great deal of Force energy but just willpower and concentration, despite this being an abject dismissal of the fact that Sion's powers reach heightened levels when being empowered by a dark side nexus which does not increase willpower and concentration, but just Force energy. Clearly there is a lot more to it than that.

 

And secondly, yes, the duration of his ability is inconsequential. But the scale? The scale is still important. The fact still remains that Sion was holding his entire body together which had suffered innumerable amounts of injury. Which surpasses anything that Vader or Malgus has done. So yes he is incredibly powerful in comparison to them.

 

P.S. I'm not sure were you got the idea that Sion healed his blood vessels and lungs, this is nowhere stated. There is a difference between repairing tissue damage, cleansing the body of poisons etc. and simply willing one's body to live as you would electrocute a half dead person back to life. The latter certainly takes a lot more effort.

[LadyKulvax]

Sion didn't heal anything because his body was dead.

 

Just saying.....

[sell-dog]

And being dwarfed by Darth Nihilus is nothing to be ashamed off, Bane would not stand a chance either.

 

Isn't she in this versus series as well (meaning Aurbree views them as similiarish power levels)? Could be a possible matchup at some point. I am sure Bane would do a lot more than stand a chance against Nihilus and I would argue that he'd beat her.

 

Edit: If Bane doesn't stand a chance, which me personally I don't see this at all at the moment, then shouldn't she be at least #10 over on the Sith list? Also if Bane ends up on top in this match should Bane and Traya flip-flop over there?

 

Edit2: As pointed out below. I read Nihilus and pictured Nyriss in my mind *Face Palm* sorry disregard all in this post and esp Beni. Fridays afternoons...

Edited August 2, 2013 by sell-dog

[Darth_Omega]

Isn't she in this versus series as well (meaning Aurbree views them as similiarish power levels)? Could be a possible matchup at some point. I am sure Bane would do a lot more than stand a chance against Nihilus and I would argue that he'd beat her.

 

Edit: If Bane doesn't stand a chance, which me personally I don't see this at all at the moment, then shouldn't she be at least #10 over on the Sith list? Also if Bane ends up on top in this match should Bane and Traya flip-flop over there?

 

Nihilus is a guy, and he's not on this list.

[sell-dog]

Nihilus is a guy, and he's not on this list.

 

*Face Palm*

 

I read Nihilus and had Nyriss in my mind

[Darth_Omega]

You can't possibly advocate barring Traya's abilities simply because she has not shown them in a duel which she would have been prevented from doing by game mechanics.

 

At least give an in-universe reason for why she wouldn't be able to do this...

 

Only one ability. Her force concealment. Here is the reason why I think this:

 

We don't know how well she could use it in combat. Like, how fast could she disappear? Could Bane detect her force levels dropping to give him a hint to what's about to happen? How fast can she move in it? Can she disappear and reappear constantly and quickly, in a similar manner to Lord Nefarid? And can she leave the area if she uses it (a question for Aurbere)? If she can, Bane could just collapse the building to prevent her from escaping.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Darth_Omega

[Darth_Omega]

*Face Palm*

 

I read Nihilus and had Nyriss in my mind

 

Haha, its good.

[Beniboybling]

Only one ability. Her force concealment. Here is the reason why I think this:

 

We don't know how well she could use it in combat. Like, how fast could she disappear? Could Bane detect her force levels dropping to give him a hint to what's about to happen? How fast can she move in it? Can she disappear and reappear constantly and quickly, in a similar manner to Lord Nefarid? And can she leave the area if she uses it (a question for Aurbere)? If she can, Bane could just collapse the building to prevent her from escaping.

I guessing you didn't watch those videos I provided.

[Darth_Omega]

I guessing you didn't watch those videos I provided.

 

I apologize. I can watch them when I get home on my computer, or you could explain them to me. My phone won't show them.