The BattleZone Reboot Round 1 Match 11: Darth Traya vs. Darth Bane

[Aurbere]

The battle takes place in the Iziz Royal Palace, starting in the Throne Room. The entirety of the Palace interior, as well as the Sky Ramp, is available to both combatants.

[Beniboybling]

I apologize. I can watch them when I get home on my computer, or you could explain them to me. My phone won't show them.

Basically Traya moves about while invisible, messing with Mical's head.

 

We know Traya can render herself invisible, we now she can move around while doing this, and we know that she can simultaneously communicate with others telepathically.

[Darth_Omega]

The battle takes place in the Iziz Royal Palace, starting in the Throne Room. The entirety of the Palace interior, as well as the Sky Ramp, is available to both combatants.

 

So Bane could resort to crushing parts of the palace if needed, right?

[Darth_Omega]

Basically Traya moves about while invisible, messing with Mical's head.

 

We know Traya can render herself invisible, we now she can move around while doing this, and we know that she can simultaneously communicate with others telepathically.

 

Thank you, that is interesting. However, that does not answer my questions. Can she move at high speeds while concealed? Can she rapidly conceal and unconceal herself like Lord Nefarid? How fast can she conceal herself?

 

We need to know these things in order to use this style against Bane.

[Aurbere]

So Bane could resort to crushing parts of the palace if needed, right?

 

If he can, yes.

[Beniboybling]

Thank you, that is interesting. However, that does not answer my questions. Can she move at high speeds while concealed? Can she rapidly conceal and unconceal herself like Lord Nefarid? How fast can she conceal herself?

 

We need to know these things in order to use this style against Bane.

All variations of Force concealment have performed instantly, she is capable of running while cloaked and as lesser Force users have used Force speed in tandem with Force cloak i.e. Maris Brood so we can assume Traya, being capable of Force speed, would be capable of doing so as well. Indeed I'd assume she can do anything in this category that lesser Force users could. So rapidly concealing and unconcealing herself is on the cards.

[Darth_Omega]

All variations of Force concealment have performed instantly, she is capable of running while cloaked and as lesser Force users have used Force speed in tandem with Force cloak i.e. Maris Brood so we can assume Traya, being capable of Force speed, would be capable of doing so as well. Indeed I'd assume she can do anything in this category that lesser Force users could. So rapidly concealing and unconcealing herself is on the cards.

 

The thing is, is that these "lesser force users" specialize in force concealment. Maris Brood and Lord Nefarid completely based their fighting styles on the ability to conceal themselves. Just because Traya is more powerful does not mean that she would have the same amount of skill as someone who's been training their entire life in the use of that skill.

 

The biggest problem with me is that we can only assume what she can do in combat with this ability. Assumptions aren't always true. We have no evidence of Traya ever using this technique in combat.

 

But in the end, Beni, you and I can only agree to disagree. It is up to Aurbere to decide. However if anyone would like to put their input into this argument, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Darth_Omega]

If he can, yes.

 

He certainly can.

 

"Bane replied, hurling out the wave of force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speach. There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shockwave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Ka'sim's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack. Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Ka'sim beneath tons of rock anf mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble."

- Bane killing Blademaster Ka'sim by destroying the Rakatan Temple on Lehon. Page 294, Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

 

 

The speech took about 10 seconds, for anyone who wants to know how long Bane was building his power up. Considering he has become more powerful since then, it could probably take less time to gather up energy for him now.

[Aurbere]

He certainly can.

 

Oh, I knew he could. This was noted in the analysis. However, I was referring to him possibly not having enough time.

 

However, it is possible that he could collapse the Throne Room entryway, sealing the two in the Throne Room.

[Darth_Omega]

Oh, I knew he could. This was noted in the analysis. However, I was referring to him possibly not having enough time.

 

However, it is possible that he could collapse the Throne Room entryway, sealing the two in the Throne Room.

 

That's kind of what I was thinking. At most, it propably wouldn't take him more than 1 ~ 1.5 seconds to gather the energy required to collapse the doorway.

 

In fact, probably a lot less then that. He could probably collapse the doorway near instantaneously.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Darth_Omega

[tunewalker]

Ok so a more on topic thing from me, I do not believe Traya is going to be able to hold off the brute strength saber attacks Bane will be bringing, Zannah was still loseing while using a double bladed saber and soresu and he was much younger and physically fit, I highly doubt a 1 armed old women can do the same and get away. I don't think her defenses will hold up long and bane has more then enough power in the force to be able to defend against her force abilities and close the gap again on the rare chance that she does get away.

 

 

Also kind of already stated this but force concealment often does not work when the person you are concealing yourself from knows you are there, and has been noted as a problem for most versions of force concealment. If the person is actively looking for you its nearly impossible for you not to be noticed.

[Beniboybling]

1. Fair enough.

 

2. I never said she tries to dominate him, but searched for his fears to use against him.

 

3. Never said she was unfamiliar with the style, I said Bane was unfamiliar with it.

 

4. You assume that Traya can just easily give those lightsabers a mind of their own, and then do her own thing.

 

5. I implied that he sent out a wave immediately, not giving her enough time to escape. You assume she could escape so easily in the midst of battle.

 

6. You forget that Bane is very powerful and fast, Traya can't hold him back as easily as you imply.

 

7. I know its very unpleasant, but you are probably right.

2. Still pointless and time consuming, a quick mental jab to stun him would be more effective.

 

3. My bad, I misread.

 

4. I never said she would give them a mind of her own, its called multitasking. In a state of meditation Traya would be capable of performing multiple feats at once, as long as they are not too taxing on her Force reserves - fortunately they are not but instead demand concentration, which a state of meditation will provide in volumes.

 

5. Bane would be momentarily phased when Traya disappears for at least a few seconds, he'd then take a few seconds more to summon a powerful Force wave - plenty of time for Traya to make the appropriate distance. Its also not in the midst of battle, Traya would have created a distance (and a lapse in the conflict) with a Force push. Alternatively she could use telepathy to fool him into thinking she was trying to leave the throne room.

 

6. You forget that Traya is equally if not more powerful. And Bane is not capable of powering through Force pushes, Force lightning or Force drain, these would stop his advance and he'd seen resort to her own playing field.

[Beniboybling]

Also kind of already stated this but force concealment often does not work when the person you are concealing yourself from knows you are there, and has been noted as a problem for most versions of force concealment. If the person is actively looking for you its nearly impossible for you not to be noticed.

An example of that would be appreciated.

[tunewalker]

An example of that would be appreciated.

 

Dooku also mastered the Qey'tek meditation, which allowed him to hide his presence in the Force. Opposing Jedi were usually unable to pierce this concealment, although Kenobi succeeded on Tythe when he was previously aware Dooku was present.

 

 

This stigma has been placed on several people using this version of force cloak and was a known weakness of it, its also the only known force cloak that can not only hide your presence but your nature as well, thus it being the most likely version for Traya to use as she hid her dark nature from her pupil. So by this since she has never used it in combat it would be very difficult to assume she can since at least 1 version of force cloak is easily detectable by those that know you are already there.

[Beniboybling]

Dooku also mastered the Qey'tek meditation, which allowed him to hide his presence in the Force. Opposing Jedi were usually unable to pierce this concealment, although Kenobi succeeded on Tythe when he was previously aware Dooku was present.

 

 

This stigma has been placed on several people using this version of force cloak and was a known weakness of it, its also the only known force cloak that can not only hide your presence but your nature as well, thus it being the most likely version for Traya to use as she hid her dark nature from her pupil. So by this since she has never used it in combat it would be very difficult to assume she can since at least 1 version of force cloak is easily detectable by those that know you are already there.

Your confusing cloaking one's Force presence with the Force with cloaking oneself with the Force. Force concealement or Force cloak is bending light to render yourself invisible, no matter how aware of your opponent you are, your eyes simply won't perceive them. Dooku did not use Force concealment, he merely hid is Force presence.

 

Furthermore different Force users are more skilled in the technique than others. I'd wager that Darth Traya was more skilled in concealing her Force presence from others as she managed to conceal the fact that she was a Sith Lord from Meetra Surik - despite Surik and others being very suspicious of her.

 

Her skills in this techique are also significantly bolstered by the fact that being severed from the Force made her harder to sense, even when she revealed her true nature to the Jedi Council, they still could not sense her completely:

 

"She is... difficult to see, she is like a shadow of the Exile."

 

Actively concealing herself in the Force would make her nigh impossible to detect, regardless of whether Bane was searching for her or not - noting Bane's sense abilities have not been noted to be exceptional, while Kenobi's have.

[tunewalker]

Your confusing cloaking one's Force presence with the Force with cloaking oneself with the Force. Force concealement or Force cloak is bending light to render yourself invisible, no matter how aware of your opponent you are, your eyes simply won't perceive them. Dooku did not use Force concealment, he merely hid is Force presence.

 

Furthermore different Force users are more skilled in the technique than others. I'd wager that Darth Traya was more skilled in concealing her Force presence from others as she managed to conceal the fact that she was a Sith Lord from Meetra Surik - despite Surik and others being very suspicious of her.

 

Her skills in this techique are also significantly bolstered by the fact that being severed from the Force made her harder to sense, even when she revealed her true nature to the Jedi Council, they still could not sense her completely:

 

"She is... difficult to see, she is like a shadow of the Exile."

 

Actively concealing herself in the Force would make her nigh impossible to detect, regardless of whether Bane was searching for her or not - noting Bane's sense abilities have not been noted to be exceptional, while Kenobi's have.

 

I should note that was only one example I am sure I can find several that was a known flaw with that particular technique in general, but the bending light thing is a bit different but I am still unsure that it will change anything since he would imidiately stretch out with his senses to get a sense of her presence the bending light thing was best known for working on force users that didn't know she was there so were not actively scanning the force for her presence or on none force sensitives that rely on their eyes.

 

Nor have I seen any real reason to think a 1 handed 50 year old women is going to to hold off a powerful blow from a known exception Djem So practitioner who weilds a curved hilt to give him a better grip so he can put even more power behind his blows. I just don't see her blocking many of those with out crumpeling especially when we have reason to believe he is faster.

[Beniboybling]

I should note that was only one example I am sure I can find several that was a known flaw with that particular technique in general, but the bending light thing is a bit different but I am still unsure that it will change anything since he would imidiately stretch out with his senses to get a sense of her presence the bending light thing was best known for working on force users that didn't know she was there so were not actively scanning the force for her presence or on none force sensitives that rely on their eyes.

 

Nor have I seen any real reason to think a 1 handed 50 year old women is going to to hold off a powerful blow from a known exception Djem So practitioner who weilds a curved hilt to give him a better grip so he can put even more power behind his blows. I just don't see her blocking many of those with out crumpeling especially when we have reason to believe he is faster.

Well lets be real here, Traya isn't just going to stand around while Bane tries to find her. Its likely going to be followed up with an attack or distraction of somekind. Remember Traya can confuse Bane as to her location telepathically, meaning Bane will be looking in the wrong direction. Also we have no evidence to suggest that Bane's senses are attuned enough to detect her anyway.

 

Really I don't believe even you believe that Bane is going to disarm/kill Traya with a single blow. Remember Traya is a Force-user. She can use the Force to bolster her strength and overcome her frailty. Do you know how old Count Dooku was when he fought Anakin aboard the Invisible Hand. 80. Traya is young by comparison.

 

Traya ain't just some one-handed hag with a laser sword.

[Darth_Omega]

2. Still pointless and time consuming, a quick mental jab to stun him would be more effective.

 

3. My bad, I misread.

 

4. I never said she would give them a mind of her own, its called multitasking. In a state of meditation Traya would be capable of performing multiple feats at once, as long as they are not too taxing on her Force reserves - fortunately they are not but instead demand concentration, which a state of meditation will provide in volumes.

 

5. Bane would be momentarily phased when Traya disappears for at least a few seconds, he'd then take a few seconds more to summon a powerful Force wave - plenty of time for Traya to make the appropriate distance. Its also not in the midst of battle, Traya would have created a distance (and a lapse in the conflict) with a Force push. Alternatively she could use telepathy to fool him into thinking she was trying to leave the throne room.

 

6. You forget that Traya is equally if not more powerful. And Bane is not capable of powering through Force pushes, Force lightning or Force drain, these would stop his advance and he'd seen resort to her own playing field.

 

2. Bane's mind is strong, a quick mental jab would not stun him very well.

 

3. All good

 

4. If she wants to enter meditation, she will have to get away. Nonetheless I still think Bane could handle those lightsabers easily.

 

5. Propably true. For the last time, Bane is not stupid. He won't fall easily for mind tricks.

 

6. Can Traya spam force attacks too quickly for Bane to advance? No, and I'm sure he could ground her lightning on his saber.

[Darth_Omega]

Well lets be real here, Traya isn't just going to stand around while Bane tries to find her. Its likely going to be followed up with an attack or distraction of somekind. Remember Traya can confuse Bane as to her location telepathically, meaning Bane will be looking in the wrong direction. Also we have no evidence to suggest that Bane's senses are attuned enough to detect her anyway.

 

Really I don't believe even you believe that Bane is going to disarm/kill Traya with a single blow. Remember Traya is a Force-user. She can use the Force to bolster her strength and overcome her frailty. Do you know how old Count Dooku was when he fought Anakin aboard the Invisible Hand. 80. Traya is young by comparison.

 

Traya ain't just some one-handed hag with a laser sword.

 

Bane has very strong willpower, Traya wont be able to just simply confuse him.

[Beniboybling]

Bane has very strong willpower, Traya wont be able to just simply confuse him.

Its less mind tricks and more a projection of her voice, which will distract Bane from whatever her true intentions may be.

[Darth_Omega]

Its less mind tricks and more a projection of her voice, which will distract Bane from whatever her true intentions may be.

 

Perhaps. I think how Traya can effect his mind should be our next argument. I'll be busy for a couple hours, but I'll post my view on this when I get the chance.

[Beniboybling]

Traya isn't just going to spam Force attacks, though noting that Traya has prove herself agile enough to evade lightsaber strikes. Meaning she'd be able to evade Bane as he charges her and reestablish a distance.

 

But like I said Traya isn't just going to be throwing all her powers at him. Her attacks will be calculated and chained to maximum effect. I'm expecting a combination of Force drain and Force lighting. As Bane attempts to close the gap Traya will stop him in his tracks with Force drain. She then might follow up with Force lightning which Bane will likely block with his lightsaber, but it will still stop him in his tracks and maybe even drive him back.

 

A rinse repeat process of this will likely ensue, with Traya drawing on Force speed, Force cloak, and telekinetic attacks to ensure a distance is maintained, readjusting her position if necessary. Noting that concealing herself will allow her to charge an attack and catch Bane be surprise.

 

By constantly barraging him with Force drain, Bane will slowly weaken, while Traya will grow exponentially more powerful. Meaning that each blast of Force lightning will become harder to block, and become more potent. Furthermore Bane's speed will slow, his senses will dull and his reflexes with it. Not only does this make Traya more able to engage Bane in a lightsaber duel if the situation demands it, but it also means she is more likely to catch him off-guard through Force stealth. He will also become more susceptible to Force pushes as his Force barriers weaken. Allowing Traya to throw him against pillars and walls with greater ease, weakening him further.

 

Simply put, Bane will tire. And eventually one of Traya's attacks will strike true. Be it lightning or telekinesis or even a lightsaber attack Bane will falter and become vulnerable, allowing Traya to finish him. If Bane is unable to maintain lightsaber combat in the initial engagement, he cannot win, because he will grow weaker and weaker as the battle progresses.

 

However I also feel that the potency of Traya's ability to attack Bane with a telekinetic lightsaber attack is being underestimated - there are several reasons why such an attack is nothing short of lethal:

 

 

• Traya, without being severed from the Force, can wield with technique with far greater potency than she did against Surik. And if she chooses to put her full concentration into it, rather than multi-tasking other abilities (which is most likely) it could prove very dangerous to Bane.
   
   
  
• Traya can surround Bane with such an attack. Being swarmed from all sides by multiple blades will mean Bane will be incapable of attacking Traya, because doing so could leave him exposed to a possibly fatal attack.
   
   
  
• Fighting disembodied blades throws conventional lightsaber techniques out of the window. Zone attacks suddenly become useless, because there are no zones to attack. And all but one of the marks of contact are equally rendered obsolete. The only attack Bane can rely on is Sun Djem. Bane will find himself having to radically adapt.
   
   
  
• Without the restraints of a body, Traya is able to attack in the most unconventional of manners. She can flip the blades over his head, weave them around his legs, pinwheel them, move them with remarkable speed etc. Which will make them even more difficult to counter.
   
   
  
• Force attacks are useless, any telekinetic attack such as a Force push or wave will have little effect. It may disperse the blades for a moment, but they will just rush back to attack.
   
   
  
• Power attacks are useless, the main focus of Bane's primary style, Djem So, is rendered completely obsolete. Bane cannot perform power attacks on a blade with no wielder, it simply won't have any effect. Having no hand to hold them, they will simply rebound.
   
   
  
• This is an attack Bane has never experienced before, which will only add to the shock factor.
  

 

Now I am not saying that Bane will be defeated by such a move, but that he won't be able to quickly or easily counter it. Bane will be forced to completely redefine his lightsaber style and will likely instinctively fall back on the defensive to while he processes this new threat, and even then he'll be forced to respond to attacks he has never experienced before. Bane will be seriously phased, which will mean he will be tied up.

 

Giving Traya ample time to scout his weaknesses with shatterpoint, and charge up a powerful Force based attack to strike at the holes in his armour. If Traya continually attacks him with precise bursts of lightning, while he is fighting three opponents, one of them is going to hit, and it is going to hit with potent effect.

 

I cannot see Bane escaping such an attack with at least some kind of injury, which will only add to the fatigue Traya will be attempting to induce in him - fatiguing her opponent will be Traya's primary objective here.

[Darth_Omega]

Traya isn't just going to spam Force attacks, though noting that Traya has prove herself agile enough to evade lightsaber strikes. Meaning she'd be able to evade Bane as he charges her and reestablish a distance.

 

But like I said Traya isn't just going to be throwing all her powers at him. Her attacks will be calculated and chained to maximum effect. I'm expecting a combination of Force drain and Force lighting. As Bane attempts to close the gap Traya will stop him in his tracks with Force drain. She then might follow up with Force lightning which Bane will likely block with his lightsaber, but it will still stop him in his tracks and maybe even drive him back.

 

A rinse repeat process of this will likely ensue, with Traya drawing on Force speed, Force cloak, and telekinetic attacks to ensure a distance is maintained, readjusting her position if necessary. Noting that concealing herself will allow her to charge an attack and catch Bane be surprise.

 

By constantly barraging him with Force drain, Bane will slowly weaken, while Traya will grow exponentially more powerful. Meaning that each blast of Force lightning will become harder to block, and become more potent. Furthermore Bane's speed will slow, his senses will dull and his reflexes with it. Not only does this make Traya more able to engage Bane in a lightsaber duel if the situation demands it, but it also means she is more likely to catch him off-guard through Force stealth. He will also become more susceptible to Force pushes as his Force barriers weaken. Allowing Traya to throw him against pillars and walls with greater ease, weakening him further.

 

Simply put, Bane will tire. And eventually one of Traya's attacks will strike true. Be it lightning or telekinesis or even a lightsaber attack Bane will falter and become vulnerable, allowing Traya to finish him. If Bane is unable to maintain lightsaber combat in the initial engagement, he cannot win, because he will grow weaker and weaker as the battle progresses.

 

However I also feel that the potency of Traya's ability to attack Bane with a telekinetic lightsaber attack is being underestimated - there are several reasons why such an attack is nothing short of lethal:

 

 

• Traya, without being severed from the Force, can wield with technique with far greater potency than she did against Surik. And if she chooses to put her full concentration into it, rather than multi-tasking other abilities (which is most likely) it could prove very dangerous to Bane.
   
   
  
• Traya can surround Bane with such an attack. Being swarmed from all sides by multiple blades will mean Bane will be incapable of attacking Traya, because doing so could leave him exposed to a possibly fatal attack.
   
   
  
• Fighting disembodied blades throws conventional lightsaber techniques out of the window. Zone attacks suddenly become useless, because there are no zones to attack. And all but one of the marks of contact are equally rendered obsolete. The only attack Bane can rely on is Sun Djem. Bane will find himself having to radically adapt.
   
   
  
• Without the restraints of a body, Traya is able to attack in the most unconventional of manners. She can flip the blades over his head, weave them around his legs, pinwheel them, move them with remarkable speed etc. Which will make them even more difficult to counter.
   
   
  
• Force attacks are useless, any telekinetic attack such as a Force push or wave will have little effect. It may disperse the blades for a moment, but they will just rush back to attack.
   
   
  
• Power attacks are useless, the main focus of Bane's primary style, Djem So, is rendered completely obsolete. Bane cannot perform power attacks on a blade with no wielder, it simply won't have any effect. Having no hand to hold them, they will simply rebound.
   
   
  
• This is an attack Bane has never experienced before, which will only add to the shock factor.
  

 

Now I am not saying that Bane will be defeated by such a move, but that he won't be able to quickly or easily counter it. Bane will be forced to completely redefine his lightsaber style and will likely instinctively fall back on the defensive to while he processes this new threat, and even then he'll be forced to respond to attacks he has never experienced before. Bane will be seriously phased, which will mean he will be tied up.

 

Giving Traya ample time to scout his weaknesses with shatterpoint, and charge up a powerful Force based attack to strike at the holes in his armour. If Traya continually attacks him with precise bursts of lightning, while he is fighting three opponents, one of them is going to hit, and it is going to hit with potent effect.

 

I cannot see Bane escaping such an attack with at least some kind of injury, which will only add to the fatigue Traya will be attempting to induce in him - fatiguing her opponent will be Traya's primary objective here.

 

Bane is likely faster than Traya, so I don't see that whole first argument working.

 

Secondly I doubt Traya can control 3 lightsabers to a high degree while building up a force attack. She's not that powerful or skilled.

 

Bane is also the best duelist she will have ever faced, so I doubt she will be able to evade his attacks as easily

Edited August 3, 2013 by Darth_Omega

[Beniboybling]

Bane is likely faster than Traya, so I don't see that whole first argument working.

 

Secondly I doubt Traya can control 3 lightsabers to a high degree while building up a force attack. She's not that powerfil or skilled

Can Bane move faster than Traya's lightning? I doubt it.

 

And if Traya can manipulate lightsabers while severed from the Force, I'm sure she can manage with her full faculties available to her, which with Bane replenishing her energies will be at full effectiveness.

 

Also further noting, as I said before, that manipulating lightsabers will not be at all taxing on her Force ability, but will instead demand concentration. Meaning that Traya is more than capable of building up a Force attack.

 

And yes, Traya has proven herself to be incredibly skilled by performing feats requiring intense amounts of concentration and highly attuned precision i.e. peering into any future, even those centuries away, at a moments notice, killing dozens of Sith assassins through Force healing, effectively manipulating their bodies into dying.

 

This in comparison, is a fairly basic task.

[LadyKulvax]

Secondly I doubt Traya can control 3 lightsabers to a high degree while building up a force attack. She's not that powerful or skilled.

 

She nearly killed the Exile whom has exceptional precognitive skills without even knowing they were coming and this was an attack whilst Traya was cut off from the Force, it was her last gasp attack, the only energy she had left after having her arse handed to her, yet it was still clearly very very fast, so I don't agree here.