The BattleZone Reboot Round 1 Match 11: Darth Traya vs. Darth Bane

[Beniboybling]

I largly agree with omega on this one. I think it comes down the physical and combat capabilities of the 2. While Traya may be more powerful in the force and can use that to her advantage I do not believe bane will let it come to that and he is more then powerful enough to defend himself against force attacks and act in kind, she may hold him off for a bit but with his affinity for force speed and his general force power in general I think he is just powerful enough to close the gap and force a saber fight, one in which Traya will hold against but not long enough to truly make a difference my money is on Bane.

Traya is by no means lacking in Force speed, and being lighter and more agile than Bane she can likely move much faster than him. I don't believe Bane to be the more powerful Force user, he was only able to sustain a Force drain when drawing on the dark side nexus on Prakith. Traya used this power without any aid to kill three Jedi masters. So do not assume that his Force lightning and telekinetic attacks are more potent. The opposite may in fact be true.

 

But any gap can be closed through Force drain. Literally taking his power and restoring her own.

[tunewalker]

Traya is by no means lacking in Force speed, and being lighter and more agile than Bane she can likely move much faster than him. I don't believe Bane to be the more powerful Force user, he was only able to sustain a Force drain when drawing on the dark side nexus on Prakith. Traya used this power without any aid to kill three Jedi masters. So do not assume that his Force lightning and telekinetic attacks are more potent. The opposite may in fact be true.

 

But any gap can be closed through Force drain. Literally taking his power and restoring her own.

 

I never said he was more powerful she is very clearly more powerful I just do not believe the difference in their power is large enough to compensate for the difference in their physical and martial capabilities.

[Selenial]

Thoughts: I should probably make a general rule like 'no insta-kill/insta-win abilities' like Vitiate's mind control or Traya's Force Drain. This was one of the reasons Nihilus was excluded as he can insta-kill practically anything.

 

Yah, off the table

[tunewalker]

Yah, off the table

 

but not entirely just isn't going to be used to kill him it could still be used to drain him a little and slow him down a bit. or at least that's how I interpret it.

[sell-dog]

Traya is by no means lacking in Force speed, and being lighter and more agile than Bane she can likely move much faster than him

 

I don't know much of Traya's Force Speed feats but I do know that at the beginning of the Dynasty of Evil Bane was practicing his saber skills through a downpour of rain and avoided all rain drops. Not necessarily saying Bane has the edge in Force Speed but that's pretty impressive to say the least.

[Beniboybling]

I never said he was more powerful she is very clearly more powerful I just do not believe the difference in their power is large enough to compensate for the difference in their physical and martial capabilities.

I think people are two quickly jumping to the conclusion that because Traya is a scholar was somehow lacking in physical ability and lightsaber ability. This is not the case. She went toe-to-toe with Meetra Surik in lightsaber combat, and even when defeated, was capable of wielding lightsaber telekinetically. Her ability to recognize an opponents style and its weaknesses will only bolster her ability.

 

as Traya schools the Exile's 'Lost Jedi' without even drawing her lightsaber (restored content)

 

How dangerous will she be when armed? Really though Bane's martial abilities will be rendered null and void when Traya chooses to force a Force-based engagement. She is more than capable enough of holding him back, and his most likely attempts to charge Traya will only make her more vulnerable. Think Bane vs Zannah.

[Beniboybling]

Thoughts: I should probably make a general rule like 'no insta-kill/insta-win abilities' like Vitiate's mind control or Traya's Force Drain. This was one of the reasons Nihilus was excluded as he can insta-kill practically anything.

Force drain is not an insta-kill ability unless you are considerably less powerful than your opponent. And I feel stripping Traya of one of her most central abilities will lead to a outcome misrepresenting of combatants abilities.

[Beniboybling]

I don't know much of Traya's Force Speed feats but I do know that at the beginning of the Dynasty of Evil Bane was practicing his saber skills through a downpour of rain and avoided all rain drops. Not necessarily saying Bane has the edge in Force Speed but that's pretty impressive to say the least.

Perhaps you are exaggerating, bearing in mind said feat is impossible unless Bane can somehow render himself small enough to evade a blanket of raindrops.

 

EDIT: Wait, I found it, he used his lightsaber to deflect the raindrops. Impressive, most impressive.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Beniboybling

[sell-dog]

Perhaps you are exaggerating, bearing in mind said feat is impossible unless Bane can somehow render himself small enough to evade a blanket of raindrops.

 

He was moving around all over the place and deflecting whatever he did not avoid with his saber. Says that after the short downpour the only liquid on him was his own sweat.

 

It's within the first 10ish pages of the novel and can grab the quote when have it later today.

 

Edit: Saw your edit so saves me some work later

Edited August 1, 2013 by sell-dog

[Aurbere]

Force drain is not an insta-kill ability unless you are considerably less powerful than your opponent. And I feel stripping Traya of one of her most central abilities will lead to a outcome misrepresenting of combatants abilities.

 

Note I said should, not that I did. Force Drain has not been removed from play.

 

Remember that the 'Thoughts' section is simply my own general musings. 'Inward thoughts' if you will.

 

(btw are we considering Traya has only one hand or both?)

 

Traya is as she appears at her endgame. So only one hand.

[Beniboybling]

Note I said should, not that I did. Force Drain has not been removed from play.

 

Remember that the 'Thoughts' section is simply my own general musings. 'Inward thoughts' if you will.

 

 

 

Traya is as she appears at her endgame. So only one hand.

Nowhere is safe Aurbere, not even your own mind. I shall debate it all.

 

Wait, Traya only one hand? Oh boy.

 

Well Makashi at least only requires one hand.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Nowhere is safe Aurbere, not even your own mind. I shall debate it all.

 

Wait, Traya only one hand? Oh boy.

 

Well Makashi at least only requires one hand.

 

The analysis assumes that Traya is as she is prior to engaging Surik on Malachor V. So, yes, only one hand.

 

I don't think it's a stretch for me to say that Bane is the superior swordsman. I think we can all agree on that.

[Aurbere]

I don't know much of Traya's Force Speed feats but I do know that at the beginning of the Dynasty of Evil Bane was practicing his saber skills through a downpour of rain and avoided all rain drops. Not necessarily saying Bane has the edge in Force Speed but that's pretty impressive to say the least.

 

Yup, noted in the analysis.

[Beniboybling]

The analysis assumes that Traya is as she is prior to engaging Surik on Malachor V. So, yes, only one hand.

 

I don't think it's a stretch for me to say that Bane is the superior swordsman. I think we can all agree on that.

I think its a stretch. I kid I kid. But the gap is by no means considerable.

 

In fact it could work to his disadvantage, once he realities this one-handed hag is wielding Makashi he's going to be pushing for lightsaber combat at every opportunity. Leading him to favour reckless charges instead of well-placed Force powers, allowing Traya to use her abilities to maximum effect.

 

Couple that with Dun Moch and we have hook, line and sinker.

[Aurbere]

Updated Traya's Force abilities section now that I have the time (Selenial, you keep rushing me!)

[Aurbere]

I think its a stretch. I kid I kid. But the gap is by no means considerable.

 

In fact it could work to his disadvantage, once he realities this one-handed hag is wielding Makashi he's going to be pushing for lightsaber combat at every opportunity. Leading him to favour reckless charges instead of well-placed Force powers, allowing Traya to use her abilities to maximum effect.

 

Couple that with Dun Moch and we have hook, line and sinker.

 

I don't know if Bane will be susceptible to Dun Moch. Unless you can refer me to a point in Bane's life where he was taunted and reacted... badly.

 

But you make a good point. Traya's own body is a tool for manipulation.

[Beniboybling]

Updated Traya's Force abilities section now that I have the time (Selenial, you keep rushing me!)

Well done Selenial, you work in the shadows while I act as the public face of Operation: Traya-wins-the-BattleZone.

[Aurbere]

Well done Selenial, you work in the shadows while I act as the public face of Operation: Traya-wins-the-BattleZone.

 

She'll probably win the Kaggath, too.

[Selenial]

She'll probably win the Kaggath, too.

 

Damn Straight

[Beniboybling]

I don't know if Bane will be susceptible to Dun Moch. Unless you can refer me to a point in Bane's life where he was taunted and reacted... badly.

 

But you make a good point. Traya's own body is a tool for manipulation.

I would hardly say Bane is immune to aggression and battle rage, in the heat of battle he may fall prey to Traya's taunts. Which don't have to be verbal - gestures, mental whisperings etc. will all work to her advantage.

 

Couple that with the fact that she can disappear at will and I can see her easily frustrating Bane, which will make him easily to manipulate into a position in which she can exploit his weaknesses.

[sell-dog]

I would hardly say Bane is immune to aggression and battle rage, in the heat of battle he may fall prey to Traya's taunts. Which don't have to be verbal - gestures, mental whisperings etc. will all work to her advantage.

 

Couple that with the fact that she can disappear at will and I can see her easily frustrating Bane, which will make him easily to manipulate into a position in which she can exploit his weaknesses.

 

When Bane has his armor he was the mindless charger with saber battle but when it was off he wasn't as mindless as it seems he is being made out to be.

 

Note that in the final battle vs Zannah he opened with overpowering strikes for a while then when she was on the ropes she wipes out some high technique acrobatic move that would've ended him as she anticipated him to continue his charge but he was nowhere close to her when she did this watching from a near distance. She then becomes worried about the waste of effort she just put forth etc.

[Aurbere]

I would hardly say Bane is immune to aggression and battle rage, in the heat of battle he may fall prey to Traya's taunts. Which don't have to be verbal - gestures, mental whisperings etc. will all work to her advantage.

 

Couple that with the fact that she can disappear at will and I can see her easily frustrating Bane, which will make him easily to manipulate into a position in which she can exploit his weaknesses.

 

Some good points. Reminds me of Ventress vs. Maul.

[Darth_Omega]

I would hardly say Bane is immune to aggression and battle rage, in the heat of battle he may fall prey to Traya's taunts. Which don't have to be verbal - gestures, mental whisperings etc. will all work to her advantage.

 

Couple that with the fact that she can disappear at will and I can see her easily frustrating Bane, which will make him easily to manipulate into a position in which she can exploit his weaknesses.

 

Bane won't fall victim to dun moch, anger only makes him stronger.

 

I don't think traya's speed would be faster than his, either. Where is it said that she is thst fast?

 

Where is it said that traya can completely disappear in the midst of battle? And to what extent could she use her shatterpoint ability? I recall her saying that she could see fractures, but not how proficiant she was with them (like has she ever defeated someone with shatterpoint?)

 

Traya by no means can defeat Bane in lightsaber combat. His sheer strength will over power anything her makashi can do (think dooku vs anakin). His unpredictable style was made so that it would be incredibally difficult for someone to find fault in it.

 

Regarding her ability to telekinetically wield 3 sabers at once, think back to the battle between her and the exile. When wielding the sabers she didn't move at all, didnt use any force powers, and if you attacked her rather than th sabers she would only use melee attacks. So its suffice to say that she has to focus her full attention in to doing that.

 

Her force drain ability won't work as well against bane as it did against the 3 defenseless Jedi masters who were caught by complete surprise that Kreia even attacked them. It wouldn't be incorrect to say that bane is much more powerful than those 3 jedi masters.

 

Remember that bane is also well versed in sith sorceries (considering he studied Nadds holocron), I doubt anything traya will throw at him will catch him by surprise.

 

Edit: Also her lightsabers were very slow moving, and it was easy to seperate them

Edited August 1, 2013 by Darth_Omega

[Beniboybling]

Bane won't fall victim to dun moch, anger only makes him stronger.

 

I don't think traya's speed would be faster than his, either. Where is it said that she is thst fast?

 

Where is it said that traya can completely disappear in the midst of battle? And to what extent could she use her shatterpoint ability? I recall her saying that she could see fractures, but not how proficiant she was with them (like has she ever defeated someone with shatterpoint?)

 

Traya by no means can defeat Bane in lightsaber combat. His sheer strength will over power anything her makashi can do (think dooku vs anakin). His unpredictable style was made so that it would be incredibally difficult for someone to find fault in it.

 

Regarding her ability to telekinetically wield 3 sabers at once, think back to the battle between her and the exile. When wielding the sabers she didn't move at all, didnt use any force powers, and if you attacked her rather than th sabers she would only use melee attacks. So its suffice to say that she has to focus her full attention in to doing that.

 

Her force drain ability won't work as well against bane as it did against the 3 defenseless Jedi masters who were caught by complete surprise that Kreia even attacked them. It wouldn't be incorrect to say that bane is much more powerful than those 3 jedi masters.

 

Remember that bane is also well versed in sith sorceries (considering he studied Nadds holocron), I doubt anything traya will throw at him will catch him by surprise.

See my link, she can move fast enough to dodge a volley of lightsaber strikes. Whether that makes her faster than Bane is a different story, but she can keep up.

 

Traya was highly skilled in the use of Force concealment and Force stealth, meaning she can render herself invisible both from sight and from sense with a moments notice. I see no reason why she wouldn't be able to use this when not engaging in lightsaber combat with Bane.

 

Given the fact that she can percieve shatterpoints on a large scale, in events etc. like Mace Windu, the master of shatterpoint. We can assume she was able to see shatterpoints in this midst of battle which all other users of shatterpoint have been capable of i.e. Cade Skywalker. Though we should note that is you play DS and confront the Jedi Council Members in battle she (presumably) uses shatterpoint to recognize their forms and its weaknesses.

 

I never said Traya can defeat Bane in lightsaber combat, but that we should not assume her abilities to be lacking. And like I said before, shatterpoint will work to dampen the advantages of his unpredictable form.

 

And finally it should be noted that Traya was severed from the Force when she performed that move, drawing on the last reserves of her strength to perform it. With her full abilities at her disposal the effects would be far more potent. Regardless Bane will not be able to reach Traya with three lightsabers blocking his path. Attempting to do so will only leave his exposed.

 

And no, her Force drain won't work as well, but being able to diminish his Force powers and bolster her own is an undeniable advantage. She can use it to weaken him and in particular weaken is Force rage which makes up for a large majority of his strength. Force drain is paper to Force valor's rock.

 

P.S. Force drain is not a power in the sphere of Sith Sorcery (a power Bane could not wield) and cannot be defended against through conventional means. There is nothing he can do to stop the attack.

[Aurbere]

Bane won't fall victim to dun moch, anger only makes him stronger.

 

That's true. It was the same with Anakin Skywalker.

 

I don't think traya's speed would be faster than his, either. Where is it said that she is thst fast?

 

She's pretty fast. However, Bane's deflection of the raindrops is very fast. The speed advantage likely goes to Bane.

 

Where is it said that traya can completely disappear in the midst of battle?

 

I don't know if she can. It takes a great deal of concentration to use Force Cloak.

 

Traya by no means can defeat Bane in lightsaber combat. His sheer strength will over power anything her makashi can do (think dooku vs anakin). His unpredictable style was made so that it would be incredibally difficult for someone to find fault in it.

 

I agree. I don't think Traya can actually defeat Bane in lightsaber combat. But she has her own advantages in lightsaber combat. Whether those advantages can actually help her is another story.

 

Regarding her ability to telekinetically wield 3 sabers at once, think back to the battle between her and the exile. When wielding the sabers she didn't move at all, didnt use any force powers, and if you attacked her rather than th sabers she would only use melee attacks. So its suffice to say that she has to focus her full attention in to doing that.

 

Her connection to the Force had been severed. She could barely summon the energy to use them.

 

Now, I've been thinking on this whole 'using three lightsabers' thing. Originally, I planned to opt our of her using that, but we allowed Plagueis to use two lightsabers even though that isn't his primary tool. So Traya using three lightsabers is a go.

 

Her force drain ability won't work as well against bane as it did against the 3 defenseless Jedi masters who were caught by complete surprise that Kreia even attacked them. It wouldn't be incorrect to say that bane is much more powerful than those 3 jedi masters.

 

Bane is obviously more powerful than the three Council members. However, the Force Drain will have some sort of effect of him. When we get to such a discussion, we must decide how much of an effect it will have.

 

Remember that bane is also well versed in sith sorceries (considering he studied Nadds holocron), I doubt anything traya will throw at him will catch him by surprise.

 

Bane admitted that such abilities were beyond his own abilities. But you're right, anything Traya throws at him won't really surprise him.

 

It should also be noted that Darth Bane has shown the ability to use a Death Field. This ability would have exhausted him if he weren't in a nexus, but it does show that he could use it.

 

Just throwin' it out there.