[Rep] State of the Guardian Address

[Dragonexadon]

They have come up with their questions if I am not mistaken. We'll just remove those from the list once they get their answers.

 

I think it would be better to do it before they get their answers. I don't see DEVs giving them different answers to each Mirror AC

 

And they did come up with their questions. It seems the similar question is only focused defense

[Riivan]

They have their questions. They approached us to help, but we felt more inclined to argue with one another. You can still put your two cents in on the other thread. As it is, any question they ask we obviously won't ask.

[Dragonexadon]

So perhaps take out focus defense from my earlier post and replace it with a knockback question? So the primarly 3 questions would be around

1) State of Focus spec in PVP

2) Knock back protection

3) Vigilance DPS/Utility

 

thoughts?

 

If it were completely up to me, these would be my three issues:

 

1. Knock back protection. I don't know who decided that it is fun gameplay for tanks to get constantly knocked around and stunned for the duration of trash pulls so that we are unable to do our job and tank, but it is not fun, at all.

 

2. Focused Defense needs a revamp. At the very least the focus cost needs to be removed so that DPS Guardians can actually use it, but I would also love to see some way for Defense Guardians to spec into removing the threat drop from the ability.

 

3. Ghost abilities. The master strike thing is very annoying and is a DPS loss for all Guardians of all specs. Also I have had instances where I have tried to Force Leap to a boss and had the ability not happen, resulting in my DPS pulling off me and dying.

[ArenCordial]

So perhaps take out focus defense from my earlier post and replace it with a knockback question? So the primarly 3 questions would be around

1) State of Focus spec in PVP

2) Knock back protection

3) Vigilance DPS/Utility

 

thoughts?

 

1. On Focus - Honestly I'd prefer not to bring this up. Focus is really good for PvP and its doing very well in 4x4 right now (though Sentinels have the edge with their cooldowns). The Sent questions seemed to indicate they were happy with Focus and it was performing to their expectations. I'd prefer not to rock the boat here too much as the Vanguard/Shadow situation has taught me that BW trying to rebalance classes can often destroy the viability of some specs.

 

2. Knockbacks - Isn't this more a tanking issue than a Guardian one? Personally I think its more of an encounter design issue and BW's love for knockbacks being every where it feels like in recent content.

 

3.) Vigilance - Yeah this makes sense though the Juggs are asking something on this line so we might to take that in mind.

Edited August 23, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Dragonexadon]

1. On Focus - Honestly I'd prefer not to bring this up. Focus is really good for PvP and its doing very well in 4x4 right now (though Sentinels have the edge with their cooldowns). The Sent questions seemed to indicate they were happy with Focus and it was performing to their expectations. I'd prefer not to rock the boat here too much as the Vanguard/Shadow situation has taught me that BW trying to rebalance classes can often destroy the viability of some specs.

 

2. Knockbacks - Isn't this more a tanking issue than a Guardian one? Personally I think its more of an encounter design issue and BW's love for knockbacks being every where it feels like in recent content.

 

3.) Vigilance - Yeah this makes sense though the Juggs are asking something on this line so we might to take that in mind.

 

All good points, did not look at the Sent questions till just now. Almost back to square one on which questions to pick lol

[Ugolino]

BW trying to rebalance classes can often destroy the viability of some specs

 

Is this meant to be a bad thing?

[ArenCordial]

Is this meant to be a bad thing?

 

I don't consider useless or underperforming specs a good thing.

[ArenCordial]

So here's Marb's new rough draft for the Jugg side, so we know what they seem to be doing over there.

 

PVP: Would the team consider removing the rage cost and rage consumption effect from Enraged Defense? Additionally, would improving the ability for other Juggernaut specs outside of Vengeance be something to consider as well?

 

PVE: If an armor debuff is provided by another class (which it often is), why would an ops group take an equally skilled dps Juggernaut over a Marauder for nightmare content? Is overall damage output supposed to be the cost that hybrid AC's pay for having access to taunts and heals?

 

General: Would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

**For emphasis, we don't necessarily mean buffs to dps (although that would be nice too, see PvE question), but rather, being able to deal our top potential damage more easily in PvP (dependence on ravage channel) and more regularly in PvE (rampage proc rate).

 

Given that where does it leave us for our questions?

 

The most obvious one for me is the fact the Guardian/Jugg class is the only class without some kind of offensive cooldown, so that could be one.

[Riivan]

We have quite a bit of time before out questions are to be submitted. We shouldn't pigeon hole ourselves to 3 but rather compile a list of potential questions. A lot can change between now and then. These are the questions or at least topics that have been discussed in this thread. I may have missed a few because you all love to post walls of text.

 

PVP:

• Rebalancing focus
  

 

PVE:

• What changes to Vigi dps to bring us in line with the top 3 or 4 dpsers and remove our heavier reliance on RNG.
  
• Revamp of focused defense to bring it in line with other threat dropping abilities.
  
• What sort of raid utility could they add to bring us in line with the top 3 or 4 dpsers so there is a reason to actually bring a dps guard.
  
• Add something to the accuracy talent to provide an additional benefit for the point cost
  
• Something to make guards hardier (compared to the Sent cd suite we're more of a pain to heal)
  
• Knock back protection for tanks
  

 

MISC:

• Stance animations
  
• Better more varied class armor (let's face it, we look dumb or not that tanky using our tier gear)
  

[Ugolino]

I don't consider useless or underperforming specs a good thing.

 

It couldn't happen to a more deserving spec though.

[Dragonexadon]

We have quite a bit of time before out questions are to be submitted. We shouldn't pigeon hole ourselves to 3 but rather compile a list of potential questions. A lot can change between now and then. These are the questions or at least topics that have been discussed in this thread. I may have missed a few because you all love to post walls of text.

 

PVP:

• Rebalancing focus
  

 

PVE:

• What changes to Vigi dps to bring us in line with the top 3 or 4 dpsers and remove our heavier reliance on RNG.
  
• Revamp of focused defense to bring it in line with other threat dropping abilities.
  
• What sort of raid utility could they add to bring us in line with the top 3 or 4 dpsers so there is a reason to actually bring a dps guard.
  
• Add something to the accuracy talent to provide an additional benefit for the point cost
  
• Something to make guards hardier (compared to the Sent cd suite we're more of a pain to heal)
  
• Knock back protection for tanks
  

 

MISC:

• Stance animations
  
• Better more varied class armor (let's face it, we look dumb or not that tanky using our tier gear)
  

I liked all of these but the Focus question. This question, more or less, is answered on the sents. I personally like where focus is at but that's just me. And I agree with a previous poster on not rocking the boat on it.

[Riivan]

Just compiling everything. It's the only pvp one I saw. I tried not to attach my personal opinions to the list though I failed a couple times . But I agree focus is solid where it is at. It fills it's niche perfectly. Before touching focus or defense, vigilance needs some love. I have swapped to sent now because the dps is just not their on vigi guards.

[Dragonexadon]

Just compiling everything. It's the only pvp one I saw. I tried not to attach my personal opinions to the list though I failed a couple times . But I agree focus is solid where it is at. It fills it's niche perfectly. Before touching focus or defense, vigilance needs some love. I have swapped to sent now because the dps is just not their on vigi guards.

We are keeping this conversation live. It's good stuff. Not sure what we would replace the PVP question with.

 

"We are fine, please no nerf?:

[ArenCordial]

Just want to throw some thoughts on to some of the ideas compiled.

PVP:

-Rebalancing focus - Sent questions kinda covered this.

 

 

PVE:

-What changes to Vigi dps to bring us in line with the top 3 or 4 dpsers and remove our heavier reliance on RNG. -Juggs will be asking a Vig question on its dps woes. We can probably refine another question out of BW answer.

 

-Revamp of focused defense to bring it in line with other threat dropping abilities. -Yup

 

-What sort of raid utility could they add to bring us in line with the top 3 or 4 dpsers so there is a reason to actually bring a dps guard. -Juggs have a utility question for us.

 

-Add something to the accuracy talent to provide an additional benefit for the point cost -AndrewPast made a good point in regards to this. That said Snipers/Slingers also have an accuracy talent with no extra bonus so we aren't alone in this.

 

-Something to make guards hardier (compared to the Sent cd suite we're more of a pain to heal) -Tough to do. You don't really want to throw out another CD since Jugg tanks have enough already. I think Focused Defense was an attempt to do this because pretty much all the other Tank CDs are better than FD so they wouldn't use it much, so DPS Guards would be more drawn to it. Obviously it needs work and the Jugg side is going to ask about it.

 

-Knock back protection for tanks-Does any tank have good KB protection? I think the problem is BW seems to put KB everywhere.

 

 

MISC:

-Stance animations - I actually like the Guard's stance, but if we can't find more important issues....

 

-Better more varied class armor (let's face it, we look dumb or not that tanky using our tier gear)-Hehe so true. I love having horizontal stabilizers on my shoulders all the time. Still I don't think that's pressing and at best we'll get a working on it answer.

[ssfish]

I'm curious, and honestly not motivated enough to do the math, but how much of a gain would we see if our 6% strength talent was moved to 9% like other classes get? That's roughly another 100 strength at current tier, and could easily be worked into something with the Accuracy talent, since they share a tier on the tree (Accuracy goes to a 2 point talent while the Strength goes to 3.).

[ArenCordial]

I'm curious, and honestly not motivated enough to do the math, but how much of a gain would we see if our 6% strength talent was moved to 9% like other classes get? That's roughly another 100 strength at current tier, and could easily be worked into something with the Accuracy talent, since they share a tier on the tree (Accuracy goes to a 2 point talent while the Strength goes to 3.).

 

I'm not a big math guy but I can't see it being much. Maybe when BW reworks Crit like they said they would it might have a greater impact. As of right now I doubt it would be noticeable.

[Dragonexadon]

Got KBN to give some input as well which may help us

Any suggestions that you could give on what questions we should give for the Guardian section? Thanks.

 

Hmm, off the top of my head:

 

• Vig RNG issues. This is a problem for other specs too (Gunnery and Combat being the prime examples).
  
• Defense reliance on dodge (putting it at a slight statting disadvantage in TfB and a more significant disadvantage in PvP)
  
• Focus single-target DPS: is it really intended to be as high as it is? (maybe not a concern, but I'm personally curious)
  
• Defense mitigation levels, which are noticeably behind vanguards for Nightmare level content due to self-heal scaling while simultaneously being spikier. Is this intended? Are Guardian cooldowns meant to account for this? (I can supply numbers here if you would like)
  
• Ranged threat is still a problem when it needs to be generated more than once every 45 seconds (e.g. snipers on Thrasher). Perhaps separate Saber Reflect's damage cooldown from its immunity component? Lower the CD on the reflect and raise the CD on the immunity.
  
• Kiting is as problematic as it has ever been in Defense (opening on Dash'roode is awful)
  

 

Those are the things I can think of off the top of my head. Overall, I think Guardians are in a reasonably good place. The mitigation in full defense and the single-target DPS in Focus are the most concerning issues. Ranged threat is also annoying.

 

I'm not sure what I would ask that would be PvP oriented. Maybe something with Vig? Focus and Defense are the FOTM specs for Arenas, so not much to complain about there. :-)

[Dragonexadon]

If I had to pick two PVE questions , after seeing KBNs list , it would be

Vig RNG issues. This is a problem for other specs too (Gunnery and Combat being the prime examples).

For the first one. Most of us, including myself , are focused on the tanking aspect of guardians.

This post : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=674991 stats many concerns over the RNG aspect of VIGs. If vigilance DPS agree that this is their primary issue then I believe it should be one of our questions.

 

The second question I believe should still be focused defense. KBN list a lot of other great issues but , in the end , mentions that we are in a really good spot as far as tanking. I tend to agree. I know HM is not 'hard' but this is where my current experience is at. From that experience I can say guardians have a smooth damage profile, great utility, we lack some AOE threat but saber reflect is AMAZING. I would say our second biggest question/concern is still Focus Defense and the cost/benefit.

 

If we use those two are our PVE questions then our biggest concern will be finding a PVP question/concern. Which I am all for being "We as guardians love where Focus is at for it's niche role, and feel tanking PVP is great. Vig, besides RNG issues, is great for single target damage but we prefer being sweep monkies anyway. Please no nerfs ."

Edited September 3, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[ArenCordial]

The Jugg questions have been posted if anyone is interested.

[snaplemouton]

If we use those two are our PVE questions then our biggest concern will be finding a PVP question/concern. Which I am all for being "We as guardians love where Focus is at for it's niche role, and feel tanking PVP is great. Vig, besides RNG issues, is great for single target damage but we prefer being sweep monkies anyway. Please no nerfs ."

Vigilance and how it is so susceptible to roots and slows.

[Dragonexadon]

The Jugg questions have been posted if anyone is interested.

Here are the questions

 

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. When "Enraged Defense" is active in the Rage Tree the amount of healing you receive vs the amount of damage taken is very lopsided in favor of the damage taken. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

 

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

PvE

Vengeance doesn't translate very well to a live operation environment, where the reliance on a channeled melee ability (Ravage) is consistently punished due to encounter design. Additionally, Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage.

 

Question: Would the combat team consider making some changes (like faster ravage channel and improved proc chances) to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in a dynamic operation environment?

 

General

General) Out of all the classes in the game, the Juggernaut holds the distinction of being the only advanced class that lacks an offensive cooldown in a literal sense. Enrage gives more rage, but doesn't feel very interesting and has no secondary dps benefit.

 

Question: Would the developers consider granting the Juggernaut an offensive cooldown? Alternatively, would adding an interesting secondary effect onto Enrage be something to consider?

[maverickmatt]

Here are the questions

 

i like their questions.. kinda.

 

I think that if you give any more mitigation or defenses to Focus, then you HAVE to tone down it's damage.

 

 

At any rate, this will likely not make it to our questions since Juggs focused heavily on Vengeance BUT..

 

Vigilance has a very hard time staying on target with the way slows and roots are thrown around like Christmas Parade Candy.

 

Defense gets a reduced CD on Push (for obvious reasons)

Focus gets a reduced CD on Stasis (again, obvious reasons)

 

Giving Vigilance a reduced CD on Force Leap, maybe replacing one of the talents that is less than useful, would relieve some of the frustration and ineffectiveness we experience.

 

I feel as though a 7.5 second CD on Leap would be far too little given our current Unremitting ability. If the CD could be reduced to 10 seconds, we could more reliably apply our damage to an intended target in PvP.

Edited September 1, 2013 by maverickmatt

[Marb]

There was a pretty strong backlash over them because of the feedback that took place towards the deadline, which created a drastically different approach to the questions then originally put forth by the rep as a draft (my fault). This was also made worse by the sudden posting of the alternative questions in progress without any warning or showing the community a final draft. Marl isn't totally to blame as the community wasn't exactly coherent in their desires either.

 

I hope you guys can come to a mutual understanding over your final 3.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Marb

[Draqsko]

Biggest issues I see are:

 

Focused Defense: Remove the threat drop component from the self heal component. The healing throughput is fine, it's the threat drop that really causes an issue. Defense spec cannot use it for PvE, and with guardians being a heavy defense favored class that tends to recieve damage spikes, being able to use FD while tanking would help to mitigate those damage spikes that so often drive a healer insane.

 

Knockback protection for Defense Spec: Shadow tanks and Vanguard tanks can minimize the effect of knockback because they have a 0-10m range on a few skills. Guardian tanks on the other hand only have 1 skill that is useable in that range and more than likely have to burn a taunt to help keep aggro on the walk back, which is often hindered by a slow component in the knockback. Either better encounter design or something in the tree would go a long way to making guardian tanking less of a chore.

 

Vigilance reliance on RNG in PvE: I know this doubles the Juggie question but really this needs to be addressed in a different manner. I think the proc chances are fine as well as the channel on Masterstrike. Perhaps a better approach would be to see if adding Bladestorm and/or Dispatch as triggers for the proc to reset Masterstrike. With another skill or two for a trigger for Zen Strike, the proc chance wouldn't need to be changed really, plus the fact that both are slightly longer ranged than OHS or PB means that you can reset on approach and go right in and Masterstrike again immediately. Obviously you can still be victimized by the RNG, but by and large this expansion of triggers would be more effective for mitigating the effects of the RNG than just flat out increasing a proc chance.

 

Focus Guardians are fine where they are, they are hard hitting but also have the staying power of wet tissue paper. The ones that everyone complains about in PvP are Focus Sentinels who have GBTF, although people tend to just group them up with Guardians. We need to insure that any nerf on Focus Sentinels does not affect Guardians because honestly, guardians need that damage where it is now, since we lack a defensive suite as powerful as Sentinels. Focused Defense is crap for Focus spec, Saber Ward is the only defense we get on Focus, and that is completely fine in my eyes.

 

Those are really the only issues we have as an AC, other than this Guardians are in a really good place now with all 3 trees being viable in all aspects of the game. Even Vigilance is still viable in PvE contrary to what everyone seems to think, a good player can still score in the top dps of a raid, although the RNG issues do make it slightly harder, but Vigilance always was and always should be the "skilled" player spec with managing procs, cooldowns, and positioning.

[Riivan]

I like your thoughts. I'd only add that the cost of the healing component is too great. Unless you have Combat Focus up or you happen to have sundering up or soon you're hosed. It'd be nice to split them and remove either the initial focus cost from the heal or the per hit focus cost from the heal. With DPS checks so tight in pve and our lagging output we can't afford the hit to our dps.