Stealth: fair or unfair advantage?

[Darth-Piranha]

Stealth is quite an advantageous ability to have. The more stealth on your team, the better your chances are in getting control of those turrets. Its a pretty wicked kill coming up behind a victim and knifing them to death almost instantly while keeping them laid. Its also a good ability to have as a last resort to evade an otherwise certain death. For those guarding a turret its an instant stun dart out of nowhere.

 

But what about those who can't stealth. Is it unfair to them, that they're completely oblivious, to an incoming stealth enemy and by the time they can see, its too late. Is it fair that those classes that can't stealth have no way of sneaking or evading. If a sage tries to rush a captured turret, the enemy guard is gonna spot him a mile away and call for reinforcement. So he's better off rushing in with a crowd. But with stealth its just one or two to sneak up from behind, stun - knife kill before backup can arrive.

 

To me personally? yeah its a bit overpowered but this really isn't a "please-nerf-pvp-stealth" this is more of maybe we should consider giving the non stealth classes an enhanced ability to sense better and possibly better immunity to the so-called ninja stuns or ninja knifing. (imo)

 

So I ask the fine & skilled pvp community: Is stealth in pvp fair or unfair?

[hallucigenocide]

well it's far more "op" than roll that seems to be ppl's main focus these days but as with anything else it's manageble... players are more concerned with nerfing things than actually learning how to counter them..

 

anyways no it's not unfair same as leap aint unfair or roll aint unfair.. only thing unfair with wz's is the lack of matchmaking.

Edited July 29, 2013 by hallucigenocide

[DharmaPolice]

Stealthed classes play a given role in warzones. A Sage should probably not (in most cases) be trying to ninja/solo cap. It's silly to say that it's unfair that a Sage can't do this, that's not their job. It's like complaining that I can't heal on my Sentinel, Leap on my Commando or knock back on my Scoundrel. Different classes do different things.

 

As for enhanced stealth detection - Vanguards/Commandos have stealth scan. Gunslingers have enhanced stealth ability if they stay in cover (and the best CC immunity ability in the game). Sages have (effectively) a second CC breaker. Shadows and Scoundrels can stealth themselves which is a great defence against stealth. The other classes (i.e. Sentinels/Guardians) really shouldn't be guarding in most cases.

 

So, no stealth isn't an unfair advantage (except arguably for Scoundrel healers). It's an asset that dps Shadows / Scoundrels have at the cost of being able to hit the high sustained numbers of other classes (usually).

Edited July 29, 2013 by DharmaPolice

[LaVall]

Poorly guarded nodes are supposed to be captured.

[Pathlight-]

Poorly guarded nodes are supposed to be captured.

 

/Thread.

[Kurso]

There is no problem with stealth per se, it is the combination of stealth with other capabilities that make people complain.

 

Stealth+Stun+Burst+Resteath+Restun+Burst is the problem.

 

It's not uncommon for me to take half a players HP away before they have a chance to respond, at which point I stealth away and hit them again for the other half.

[Alejo-SWTOR]

I always thought stealth in any game was cheap.

[General_Aldo]

Stealth are weak in this game. They have been nerfed to the ground.

 

If you lose a turret to a stealth by getting killed by them "So fast" OR getting ninja'd.

 

Then it's your fault.

 

L2P

[Kurso]

Stealth are weak in this game. They have been nerfed to the ground.

 

If you lose a turret to a stealth by getting killed by them "So fast" OR getting ninja'd.

 

Then it's your fault.

 

L2P

 

I shred 9/10 players without trouble. If they don't use CC break they are dead. If they use CC break then I stun them again and they are dead. If something goes wrong with the attack I just stealth away and try again.

[hallucigenocide]

I shred 9/10 players without trouble. If they don't use CC break they are dead. If they use CC break then I stun them again and they are dead. If something goes wrong with the attack I just stealth away and try again.

 

but ofcorpse.. that's what you do in pugs.. tis really fun but that'd never happen against a coordinated team.. but then again that's where the problem is pugs dont communicate unless it's entering the forums screaming for nerfs

[Zunayson]

There is no problem with stealth per se, it is the combination of stealth with other capabilities that make people complain.

 

Stealth+Stun+Burst+Resteath+Restun+Burst is the problem.

 

It's not uncommon for me to take half a players HP away before they have a chance to respond, at which point I stealth away and hit them again for the other half.

 

meanwhile another guard comes and you're SoL because you used all your cooldowns

 

cooldown based games actually fit the technical definition of an iWin button

[Vikassi]

I shred 9/10 players without trouble. If they don't use CC break they are dead. If they use CC break then I stun them again and they are dead. If something goes wrong with the attack I just stealth away and try again.

 

In ranked or PUGS?

[Kurso]

but ofcorpse.. that's what you do in pugs.. tis really fun but that'd never happen against a coordinated team.. but then again that's where the problem is pugs dont communicate unless it's entering the forums screaming for nerfs

 

I think you are making the OPs point. I'm saying 1v1 my stealther will rock anyone. Your saying the solution to that is make sure it's 2v1 (coordination).

 

If 2v1 is really the answer then stealth is too powerful as the OP say.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Kurso

[TheRampage]

1 vs 1 stealth will kill anyone. Sayint you need to guard it better means you will put either stealth or 2 guardians on it. In the end you are accepting the fact that stealth is extremly powerfull tool.

 

As somebody op said, I dont bother about stealth, it is combination of stuns and stuff which gets you to 40% before you can even react. Can ranged do so much damage before you react? No. Meele? No. You can be ready for them. For stealth you can't.

[Vaerah]

Stealthers sustained DPS is the lowest in game by far, their health one of the lowest, their armor one of the lowest (inf / deception spec). Guess why? Exactly because they can stealth. They are also fairly easily kited.

 

Stealthers are actually weaker in this game than in most others, in fact only in SWTOR they don't get good armor penetration and only in SWTOR the ranged DPS may have tank-grade armor. SWTOR is full of warlocks...

 

Generally, they are not even accepted in RWZ nor in competitive PvE.

 

Let's nerf them again, so that you can kill them without using a pot nor the stun breaker .

After all, they are meant to be as vicious as those level 52 NPCs you farm for dailies on Maked, confirm or deny?

Edited July 30, 2013 by Vaerah

[Kurso]

Stealthers sustained DPS is the lowest in game by far, their health one of the lowest, their armor one of the lowest (inf / deception spec). Guess why? Exactly because they can stealth. They are also fairly easily kited.

 

Stealthers are actually weaker in this game than in most others, in fact only in SWTOR they don't get good armor penetration and only in SWTOR the ranged DPS may have tank-grade armor. SWTOR is full of warlocks...

 

Generally, they are not even accepted in RWZ nor in competitive PvE.

 

Let's nerf them again, so that you can kill them without using a pot nor the stun breaker .

After all, they are meant to be as vicious as those level 52 NPCs you farm for dailies on Maked, confirm or deny?

 

I don't think the answer to the state of stealthers is giving them an 90+% chance to kill anyone 1v1. Ya, I love running around ganking players with all but absolute certainty I'll kill them but I'm thinking of the overall balance of the game rather than the OP nature of one of my toons.

[hallucigenocide]

I think you are making the OPs point. I'm saying 1v1 my stealther will rock anyone. Your saying the solution to that is make sure it's 2v1 (coordination).

 

If 2v1 is really the answer then stealth is too powerful as the OP say.

 

no i'm saying pugs dont communicate... if you cant handle a stealther on your own dont guard because sooner or later there's going to be one coming for you.. that's why stealth guards are popular because when a stealther tries to cap he'll get slapped in the face

[hallucigenocide]

bah quoted myself xD Edited July 30, 2013 by hallucigenocide

[Jarfunkz]

Stealth is quite an advantageous ability to have. The more stealth on your team, the better your chances are in getting control of those turrets. Its a pretty wicked kill coming up behind a victim and knifing them to death almost instantly while keeping them laid. Its also a good ability to have as a last resort to evade an otherwise certain death. For those guarding a turret its an instant stun dart out of nowhere.

 

But what about those who can't stealth. Is it unfair to them, that they're completely oblivious, to an incoming stealth enemy and by the time they can see, its too late. Is it fair that those classes that can't stealth have no way of sneaking or evading. If a sage tries to rush a captured turret, the enemy guard is gonna spot him a mile away and call for reinforcement. So he's better off rushing in with a crowd. But with stealth its just one or two to sneak up from behind, stun - knife kill before backup can arrive.

 

To me personally? yeah its a bit overpowered but this really isn't a "please-nerf-pvp-stealth" this is more of maybe we should consider giving the non stealth classes an enhanced ability to sense better and possibly better immunity to the so-called ninja stuns or ninja knifing. (imo)

 

So I ask the fine & skilled pvp community: Is stealth in pvp fair or unfair?

 

unfair if they are as strong as all other classes. Having first strike is a huge advantage. All the reward and decreased risk is something that I just never really liked.

[Brunner_Venda]

As for enhanced stealth detection - Vanguards/Commandos have stealth scan. Gunslingers have enhanced stealth ability if they stay in cover (and the best CC immunity ability in the game). Sages have (effectively) a second CC breaker. Shadows and Scoundrels can stealth themselves which is a great defence against stealth. The other classes (i.e. Sentinels/Guardians) really shouldn't be guarding in most cases..

 

It would help if the PT and VG skill 'infrared sensors' actually gave us a reasonable chance to see a stealth enemy once in a while. It doesn't.

 

It would also help if stealth scan didnt broadcast a huge green area off effect sign that says 'HEY assassin! DON'T STEP HERE herp derp derp!"

 

So yeah. Fix detection and pyro/assault specs can kill stealth players.

 

AP/tactics are actually okay against stealth while guarding. Shoulder cannon will do 14K while stunned/mezzed AND the spec takes a third less damage while stunned/mezzed. Tactics VG will come out of a stealth gank with more health than the attacker and full resolve. The stealthers usually vanish and leave in disgust.

[Savej]

Stealth is one of those things that they threw into EQ1 that had it because invisibility existed in D&D which is what stealth turned into. But the pvp version doesn't really belong in games like this. And it's certainly not one of those things mentioned in the movies, comics or books for this genre or mythos.

 

It became very popular in Wow especially when rogues were abusing it all over youtube to destroy whole teams of enemies solo or duo in pvp. I think subsequent games have thought it was a mandatory mechanic just because so many flocked to the original and completely op class/spec in Wow.

 

There were balance pluses and minuses to the stealth classes built into Wow and other games that eventually became relevant as they fixed the classes : if you can stealth then you're generally low def, vulnerable in a straight-up fight and moved much slower while stealthed. Of course this game threw all that out the window first thing which was clue #1 for me that the original swtor devs had no idea and/or didn't care what they were doing regarding balance (especially pvp balance).

 

Its hard to justify not playing a stealth class from a purely mechanics perspective. It's a massive defensive and offensive advantage, especially in objective play and even moreso in open world skirmishes. It becomes less relevant in large and disorganized group-v-group fights but this game doesn't have too many of those.

[Gren-Aluren]

OP do you understand what counters are? Since 2.0 they added quite a bit of counters to the stealth classes. If you play a Sage I can see why you would be upset because both Stealth classes are your hard counter. This game is nothing more then a complicated game of paper, scissors, rocks.

 

Just look at the Scoundrel though, aside from healing, it has the lowest surviviablity in the game. It's defense comes from mobiility and stealth. It's hard enough for this class to survive when they added crazy lock down mechanisms like Electro-Net.

 

Tip: Don't stand anywhere near nodes. Stay atleast 20-30m away or they can sap and cap.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Gren-Aluren

[ErikGW]

Players are op. Nerf them all!

 

Stealth is part of the game. It's not "unfair" because both teams have it. If that's too difficult, maybe flashpoints might be more to your liking. Most npcs don't use stealth :-)

Edited July 30, 2013 by ErikGW

[Vaerah]

I don't think the answer to the state of stealthers is giving them an 90+% chance to kill anyone 1v1. Ya, I love running around ganking players with all but absolute certainty I'll kill them but I'm thinking of the overall balance of the game rather than the OP nature of one of my toons.

 

You have even to:

 

1) Prove you play one and are just not someone who gets splattered by them in regular WZs (you sound suspiciously so) and now raging on the internets.

 

2) What you say is true: post a video or screenshots proving what you say is true.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Vaerah

[Vaerah]

There were balance pluses and minuses to the stealth classes built into Wow and other games that eventually became relevant as they fixed the classes : if you can stealth then you're generally low def, vulnerable in a straight-up fight and moved much slower while stealthed. Of course this game threw all that out the window first thing which was clue #1 for me that the original swtor devs had no idea and/or didn't care what they were doing regarding balance (especially pvp balance).

 

In case you never noticed, an inf / deception stealther HAS lowest def of all, IS vulnerable in a straight up fight (i.e. "normal" fights where 3-6 players fight each other) and they do move slower when stealthed. Ah, they also have some of the lowest health pool of all.

 

Simple proof: if they were so good and unsurpassable, they would easily find a spot in ranked WZ teams and in progression PvE teams. Guess what, they don't.

Other classes that can 1 button smash and also stealth for some seconds, those are wanted everywhere.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Vaerah