Commando - Assault Spec Hybrid 2.0 PVE Guide

[LordKantner]

Doing more AP testing on PTS. These number probably will not be exactly the same for you as I am going pure power, and have some 75 gear.

 

 

The current AP is 3015-3129 for the hit and 2465 for the 12 sec dot.

 

VS.

 

The new AP 3974-4087 for the hit and 2348 for the 12 sec dot.

 

 

I had an average of 2825 DPS for a 5 minute parse with no armor pen using the 1/12/33.

 

I had an average of 3045 DPS for the first 2 1/2 minutes, running into some ammo issues, but ultimately having around 2880 DPS for a 2/8/36 spec.

 

With the nerf to the damage of incendiary round, and the fact certain things such as Hyper Barrels and Assault Trooper buff the damage of AP, it might be better.

 

However its very confusing ammo management wise, and the fillers are never consistently the same. I am using Full Auto more and more to proc HiB, but to my surprise the 75% doesn't seem to proc HiB as much as the 45% chance of CB when used in the current rotation fillers.

 

I will do some more testing but I am even more confused now.

Edited September 13, 2013 by LordKantner

[odawgg]

Doing more AP testing on PTS. These number probably will not be exactly the same for you as I am going pure power, and have some 75 gear.

 

 

The current AP is 3015-3129 for the hit and 2465 for the 12 sec dot.

 

VS.

 

The new AP 3974-4087 for the hit and 2348 for the 12 sec dot.

 

 

I had an average of 2825 DPS for a 5 minute parse with no armor pen using the 1/12/33.

 

I had an average of 3045 DPS for the first 2 1/2 minutes, running into some ammo issues, but ultimately having around 2880 DPS for a 2/8/36 spec.

 

With the nerf to the damage of incendiary round, and the fact certain things such as Hyper Barrels and Assault Trooper buff the damage of AP, it might be better.

 

However its very confusing ammo management wise, and the fillers are never consistently the same. I am using Full Auto more and more to proc HiB, but to my surprise the 75% doesn't seem to proc HiB as much as the 45% chance of CB when used in the current rotation fillers.

 

I will do some more testing but I am even more confused now.

 

I think you're just used to playing your hybrid spec...if you were regularly using full assault before and then transitioned to PTR for the IR change you find it easier to keep IR up and use AP closer to on cd IMO. Less rapid shots overall...the problem is we don't have an active simulator that acts according to the in-game proc rates which are more consistent than the tooltips state. If we did we could find a maximized priority system much easier than live trial and error...sigh...

 

Edit: But you're right about the fillers not being consistently the same, requires a bit more awareness

Edited September 13, 2013 by odawgg

[Gyronamics]

If a HiB doesn't proc there's only two reasons why because I've said before its not random except the very first one.

 

1) It's the first proc attempt and you need to take a roll on that. The second attempt will autoproc if the first failed.

 

2) You tried to proc during the unproccable 6s after a proc <- alacrity, alacrity boosts, transcendence all cause your casts to run faster and shorter which means a proc point on a cast can end up miliseconds short of the window opening, thus requiring a second cast. If you anticipate this you use hammer shots and delay for 1GCD.

 

 

If you let things cool down for too long you reset it and go back to #1 again.

[LordKantner]

If a HiB doesn't proc there's only two reasons why because I've said before its not random except the very first one.

 

1) It's the first proc attempt and you need to take a roll on that. The second attempt will autoproc if the first failed.

 

2) You tried to proc during the unproccable 6s after a proc <- alacrity, alacrity boosts, transcendence all cause your casts to run faster and shorter which means a proc point on a cast can end up miliseconds short of the window opening, thus requiring a second cast. If you anticipate this you use hammer shots and delay for 1GCD.

 

 

If you let things cool down for too long you reset it and go back to #1 again.

 

The roll you speak of is the 75% on FA and the 45% on CB. CB procs HiB more than FA for whatever reason.

[windogie]

he's saying full auto in arsenal is hard-hitting, and it is just filler in assault. he did not really mention any other attacks.

 

 

 

also, where are you getting these numbers:

 

 

 

 

i see the 33%, but i'm confused where the 10%, 18%, and 43% are coming from

 

It's the difference between pyro and arsenals damage for unload pyro has a +15% boost to unload and arsenal has 25% at proc of barrage I forgot about the 33% at all time so I said we had a 10% difference of base damage but as I said I forgot about the 33% so it got bumped to 43% during their barrage proc. Thats the difference between pyro unload and arsenal unload just from base damage.

[windogie]

The roll you speak of is the 75% on FA and the 45% on CB. CB procs HiB more than FA for whatever reason.

 

If like he said the second one is a insta proc then CB would proc it more cause it doesn't last as long. Even though unload is supposed to have a higher proc chance it still takes twice the time. It does seen like there is a auto proc on the second.

[odawgg]

If a HiB doesn't proc there's only two reasons why because I've said before its not random except the very first one.

 

1) It's the first proc attempt and you need to take a roll on that. The second attempt will autoproc if the first failed.

 

2) You tried to proc during the unproccable 6s after a proc <- alacrity, alacrity boosts, transcendence all cause your casts to run faster and shorter which means a proc point on a cast can end up miliseconds short of the window opening, thus requiring a second cast. If you anticipate this you use hammer shots and delay for 1GCD.

 

 

If you let things cool down for too long you reset it and go back to #1 again.

 

Yup, to add to this an FA used during the internal proc cd counts as your "roll" attempt even though you have zero chance of procing, the next CB after the internal cd ends will auto proc

[LordKantner]

Okay, I went up against a dummy, to see how many times HiB proced, this was after the natural cooldown of HiB so 15 seconds +. I also made sure Ionic Accelerator was not on my buffs.

 

Charged Bolts proced HiB 79/100 times.

 

Full Auto proced HiB 49/100 times.

Edited September 14, 2013 by LordKantner

[Gyronamics]

If you really want to get into harvesting data then in theory you should set up a macro to run casts every 15s for ages.

 

I'm not saying that data you have is right or wrong, I'm saying its a small sample.

 

But you still don't seem to be getting what I'm saying because what I'm saying is that the cold proc chance is almost irrelevant because once warmed up there is 100% chance as long as you set your proc to go off when 6s is up after the last one.

 

All your procs as assault are guaranteed except the very first attempt which is the only time you ever need to give a dam about the RNG.

[LordKantner]

Got a crazy idea.

 

As you know Vanguard and Sentinels go power augs mainly due to Battle Focus and Zen. We may not have cooldowns but we do have a 15% crit bonus to charged bolts. With the reduced cost in IR it is doable to make do with these 2 fillers to go power augments:

 

HiB, Bolt, Hammer, Bolt, HiB

 

HiB, IR, Boltx2, HiB.

 

Worst case scenario you'd be doing a hammer in the middle of the last one, but since you are almost always doing CB, and HiB has its own special crit going on, it might end up doing more dps.

Edited September 16, 2013 by LordKantner

[BobaFaceroll]

If you really want to get into harvesting data then in theory you should set up a macro to run casts every 15s for ages.

 

I'm not saying that data you have is right or wrong, I'm saying its a small sample.

 

But you still don't seem to be getting what I'm saying because what I'm saying is that the cold proc chance is almost irrelevant because once warmed up there is 100% chance as long as you set your proc to go off when 6s is up after the last one.

 

All your procs as assault are guaranteed except the very first attempt which is the only time you ever need to give a dam about the RNG.

 

Very interesting. I didn't realize it was that controllable. Probably because I am good at derping up the rotation: too much time as Gunnery for DPS post 2.0.

 

If I take the 2% Alacrity bonus from Weapon Calibrations can I go [Proc/HIB > Filler > CB > CB] and get a guaranteed Ionic Accelerator proc on the second CB, or does the Alacrity shorten my cast times enough to let that second CB end before IA can proc? What happens with the Alacrity bonus from Cell Capacitor running?

 

Thanks in advance Gyro. I can't log in and plink on a dummy right now or I'd check myself.

[LordKantner]

Very interesting. I didn't realize it was that controllable. Probably because I am good at derping up the rotation: too much time as Gunnery for DPS post 2.0.

 

If I take the 2% Alacrity bonus from Weapon Calibrations can I go [Proc/HIB > Filler > CB > CB] and get a guaranteed Ionic Accelerator proc on the second CB, or does the Alacrity shorten my cast times enough to let that second CB end before IA can proc? What happens with the Alacrity bonus from Cell Capacitor running?

 

Thanks in advance Gyro. I can't log in and plink on a dummy right now or I'd check myself.

 

Most of the time, yes. If it isn't 100% of the time its certainly very close. If you don't have to worry about plasma cell being reapplied, it may be a good idea to wait a few milliseconds before firing the procing CB so you aren't early in the 6 second effect.

 

Being a few millisecond late will still count as the "heated" proc like Gyro said.

[Zoom_VI]

Most of the time, yes. If it isn't 100% of the time its certainly very close. If you don't have to worry about plasma cell being reapplied, it may be a good idea to wait a few milliseconds before firing the procing CB so you aren't early in the 6 second effect.

 

Being a few millisecond late will still count as the "heated" proc like Gyro said.

 

I wouldn't say 100%

In a raid last night I definitely had a case where I failed to get a proc after 6 seconds. If I am remembering correctly it was something like this.

.... >HiB>AP>IR>CB (no proc) > CB (again no proc) > CB (failed - desperate now) > (Reserve powercell) FA > HiB *finally*

 

Had it happen a couple other times to, albet with those I am pretty sure the next CB procced it.

 

Also, been switching around between Katner's hybrid and full assault. From my experience at least 36pt does better on really high movement fights such as Kephiss the Undying. I would also assume that 36pt would be better for Dashrode as well. Jury is out on hybrid vs. 36pt for the Dread Guards. Conversely Gunnery seems to be the way to go for Operator, particularly for the last phase, since the immunity phases when the color circles come out really messes with assault.

 

I am wondering if the changes to IR coming in 2.4 will change the effectiveness of the hybrid. With IR becoming cheaper there doesn't seem to be any good reason to keep FA in the rotation, which would rule out the hybrid.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[LordKantner]

I wouldn't say 100%

In a raid last night I definitely had a case where I failed to get a proc after 6 seconds. If I am remembering correctly it was something like this.

.... >HiB>AP>IR>CB (no proc) > CB (again no proc) > CB (failed - desperate now) > (Reserve powercell) FA > HiB *finally*

 

Had it happen a couple other times to, albet with those I am pretty sure the next CB procced it.

 

Also, been switching around between Katner's hybrid and full assault. From my experience at least 36pt does better on really high movement fights such as Kephiss the Undying. I would also assume that 36pt would be better for Dashrode as well. Jury is out on hybrid vs. 36pt for the Dread Guards. Conversely Gunnery seems to be the way to go for Operator, particularly for the last phase, since the immunity phases when the color circles come out really messes with assault.

 

I am wondering if the changes to IR coming in 2.4 will change the effectiveness of the hybrid. With IR becoming cheaper there doesn't seem to be any good reason to keep FA in the rotation, which would rule out the hybrid.

 

I'm pretty sure you didn't proc because it was early for some reason, the 4% alacrity you receive from the spec can mess up some things. I also am not sure why you are using reserve powercell for a Full Auto. The main reason I am saying this is that if you fail to proc it, it will proc the very next cast. That is the beauty of this spec, unlike gunnery where you can fire grav round after grav round and no Curtain of Fire proc ever happens.

 

As far as the effectiveness of my spec in the future, I'd imagine you'd simply hammer shot less, going full assault is leading me to use full auto more to proc HiB and that's lower DPS, and anytime you deal with channeled abilities you are more prone to mess up the 6s timers because when they're interrupted they cut time vs. a casted ability adds time.

 

I'd also like to mention that using this spec has gotten me the highest commando parse for Kephess the Undying, Dash'roode, and Dread Guard in 16m.

[Zoom_VI]

I'm pretty sure you didn't proc because it was early for some reason, the 4% alacrity you receive from the spec can mess up some things. I also am not sure why you are using reserve powercell for a Full Auto. The main reason I am saying this is that if you fail to proc it, it will proc the very next cast. That is the beauty of this spec, unlike gunnery where you can fire grav round after grav round and no Curtain of Fire proc ever happens.

 

Even with the 4% alacrity I still spent two GCDs (not counting the one after HiB) and then three CB without proc. Yes it only happened once, but its still happened.

 

I used reserve with FA because I was not at 90+ ammo after the HiB and I had just done 5 ammo costing skills without another HiB, so I needed to recoup some ammo and using reserve cell on the 3 second FA channel was the most effective way to do so.

 

As far as the effectiveness of my spec in the future, I'd imagine you'd simply hammer shot less, going full assault is leading me to use full auto more to proc HiB and that's lower DPS, and anytime you deal with channeled abilities you are more prone to mess up the 6s timers because when they're interrupted they cut time vs. a casted ability adds time.

 

I'd also like to mention that using this spec has gotten me the highest commando parse for Kephess the Undying, Dash'roode, and Dread Guard in 16m.

 

Not sure why full assault would cause you to use FA more, when I run 36pt I actually drop FA completely except for a emergency ammo regen.

 

On your latter bits I think that might be preference, I parse higher with 36pt on Kephess than I do with the hybrid. I settled on using the hybrid for DG, because its a little more bursty than full assault, and AP is really clunky for the first phase when you have to switch between Heirad and Ciphas

[LordKantner]

Even with the 4% alacrity I still spent two GCDs (not counting the one after HiB) and then three CB without proc. Yes it only happened once, but its still happened.

 

I used reserve with FA because I was not at 90+ ammo after the HiB and I had just done 5 ammo costing skills without another HiB, so I needed to recoup some ammo and using reserve cell on the 3 second FA channel was the most effective way to do so.

 

It may also be that you aren't spamming the abilities one right after another, if i miss a proc with a CB, I am already casting another instantly, and it gives me that 100% chance. If I happen to proc HiB on the first cast I simply brake the cast of the 2nd CB and fire HiB then and there.

 

 

Not sure why full assault would cause you to use FA more, when I run 36pt I actually drop FA completely except for a emergency ammo regen.

 

On your latter bits I think that might be preference, I parse higher with 36pt on Kephess than I do with the hybrid. I settled on using the hybrid for DG, because its a little more bursty than full assault, and AP is really clunky for the first phase when you have to switch between Heirad and Ciphas

 

You are using FA more because in the filler you are using that 3rd GCD more for either an AP or an IR to line up with the cooldowns correctly. If you have already done 3 GCDs in between HiB's, doing another CB would add another GCD to your HiB timer, making it have a chance to proc less, add time to your potential HiB proc, and you will probably mess up plasma cell too.

 

Because FA can proc HiB at the beginning of its cast its something you can use if you can't do a CB on the 3rd GCD, which is quite often at the moment.

 

As far as the dread guards go, I'm not the top dps by a long shot in the first phase. With all the flyby's and time windows where burst is favored, makes perfect sense you'd do less dps. However when on Ciphas and Kel'sara my dps usually overtakes people, and by the time Kel'sara is sub 30% I am passing some gunslingers.

[Zoom_VI]

It may also be that you aren't spamming the abilities one right after another, if i miss a proc with a CB, I am already casting another instantly, and it gives me that 100% chance. If I happen to proc HiB on the first cast I simply brake the cast of the 2nd CB and fire HiB then and there.

A little confused here, to my understanding it should ideally be

HiB (1.5 sec)> filler (~1.5 sec) > filler (~1.5 sec) > CB (~1.5 sec ) >(~6 seconds later now) HiB.

My original point was where that failed and I had multiple CBs after that 6 second mark disputing the previous comment about HiB somehow always proccing after 6 sec.

 

 

You are using FA more because in the filler you are using that 3rd GCD more for either an AP or an IR to line up with the cooldowns correctly. If you have already done 3 GCDs in between HiB's, doing another CB would add another GCD to your HiB timer, making it have a chance to proc less, add time to your potential HiB proc, and you will probably mess up plasma cell too.

A little confused by your meaning.

When I run 36pt I it looks something like this.

....> HiB > CB > IR > CB > HiB (or another CB if failed) > CB > AP > CB > HiB

The only times I use FA with it is to take advantage of its 3 second channel to recoup some ammo

 

 

As far as the dread guards go, I'm not the top dps by a long shot in the first phase. With all the flyby's and time windows where burst is favored, makes perfect sense you'd do less dps. However when on Ciphas and Kel'sara my dps usually overtakes people, and by the time Kel'sara is sub 30% I am passing some gunslingers.

 

I was making more of a general comment that 36pt has to much ramp up for DG, particularly first phase because you generally have to hold back on AP to avoid having a lot of it wasted. By all means is your hybrid more effective in that particular fight.

[Gyronamics]

I'm not seeing value in an example we can't reproduce.

 

We can all go up to a dummy and reproduce the guaranteed procs I've detailed before.

 

If it bugged it bugged, worse bugs have happened, also there's always the possibility you lost track of your timing, it happens too. False FA casts are the most common actual bug I see in combat.

 

As far as anything is considered reliable the proc is going to happen unless alacrity messes with us and for that there's a decent argument that for Assault we should not take the bottom alacrity talent or the combat medic boost unless anticipating having to use an extra GCD in the proc sequence every time recharge cells is used.

 

Of course if you have your combat log it would be nice to see what it says.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Gyronamics

[Zoom_VI]

I'm not seeing value in an example we can't reproduce.

 

We can all go up to a dummy and reproduce the guaranteed procs I've detailed before.

 

If it bugged it bugged, worse bugs have happened, also there's always the possibility you lost track of your timing, it happens too. False FA casts are the most common actual bug I see in combat.

 

As far as anything is considered reliable the proc is going to happen unless alacrity messes with us and for that there's a decent argument that for Assault we should not take the bottom alacrity talent or the combat medic boost unless anticipating having to use an extra GCD in the proc sequence every time recharge cells is used.

 

Of course if you have your combat log it would be nice to see what it says.

 

I'm starting to think it was a bug it hasn't reproduced itself, and I am positive I was out of the 6 second ICD.

 

Will have to find the log, although no guarantees since I didn't write down the time when I was doing that fight and I have to many logs from that day.

 

It was a curiosity I had noticed, I hardly meant to create all this fuss over it.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[LordKantner]

A little confused by your meaning.

When I run 36pt I it looks something like this.

....> HiB > CB > IR > CB > HiB (or another CB if failed) > CB > AP > CB > HiB

 

Those fillers are fine, but you are most definitely not doing AP off cooldown. You have a 6s filler and the cooldown is 15 seconds for AP, its going to change its position in the filler....

 

If you use AP off cooldown, which was more dps I believe, you're going to need to use FA more to proc HiB.

[Zoom_VI]

Those fillers are fine, but you are most definitely not doing AP off cooldown. You have a 6s filler and the cooldown is 15 seconds for AP, its going to change its position in the filler....

 

If you use AP off cooldown, which was more dps I believe, you're going to need to use FA more to proc HiB.

 

Hmmm...

I've been running on the assumption that keeping the rotation format would be more dps over always having AP up.

Will have to parse this, when I can catch enough time

[Gyronamics]

What.

 

You put in AP in the 2 GCD after a proc use.

 

There is no issue with breaking a proc pattern because it fits right in.

 

Use proc HiB

1gcd

1gcd

CB

Use proc HiB

 

Rinse

 

Repeat

 

In those two GCD slots you can:

Use any two of of IR, HS, CB, AP, PG or random other 1GCD attack

Use FA or MV

 

There is nothing complex about using AP

 

And no, you wouldn't use it the moment it was free either.

 

Priority is having a DoT up, AP is not a DoT until it goes off which means wasted time or bad ammo control if you use it then realise you are going to overextend on ammo or waste time fishing for a plasma cell proc getting a DoT up for the HiB.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Gyronamics

[LordKantner]

I'm talking 2.4 when IR damage is reduced and AP hits for more. AP has a bunch of buffs in the spec too on top of the damage buff.

 

My priority is HiB procs > AP > IR.

[Gyronamics]

I'm talking 2.4 when IR damage is reduced and AP hits for more. AP has a bunch of buffs in the spec too on top of the damage buff.

 

My priority is HiB procs > AP > IR.

 

And for HiB procs you need a DoT so AP cannot be priority over IR.

 

IR is priority over all if you have no DoT.

 

Its that or fishing for a PC proc.

[odawgg]

And for HiB procs you need a DoT so AP cannot be priority over IR.

 

IR is priority over all if you have no DoT.

 

Its that or fishing for a PC proc.

 

I dunno I prioritize AP over IR and very very rarely run into that issue, there's usually a small window the AP dot isn't on the target and 9 times out of 10 if I'm ready to fit HiB during that window there's a cell dot going anyway. And if there's not, you can still proc HiB, follow it with IR (or HS if heats too high) and then the HiB lights up ready for activation