[Class Questions] Let's Start Fresh: 3 Questions to Devs RE: Powertechs

[ellenbec]

Tear apart as you see fit guys. These are my ideas for our questions.

 

If you think anything could be improved, changed, or omitted, I am glad to do that.

 

Also, lets see what else the rest of you can come up with.

[ScytheEleven]

I took your basic ideas for one of your questions Ellenbec and tried to clean it up a little bit...let me know if I misunderstood your intentions:

 

 

1. In response to many concerns about Pyrotech DPS, the combat team has cited that Pyrotech’s dummy DPS does not reflect a “true raid” scenario since the armor debuff and Burnout do not come into play. However, a widely respected theorycrafter by the name of KeyboardNinja on the forums put forth this statement:

 

“On a less acerbic note, I totally agree that Pyro/Assault is unjustifiably low right now. The best parse I've seen from Pyro/Assault on the PTS is in the mid 2.6k range. The armor debuff will increase damage dealt by 0.5 * ((1 - 0.3 * (1 - 0.2)) / (1 - 0.3) - 1) = 4.29%, while the execute increases damage dealt by about 3%. Thus, a raid boss shows higher DPS by (1 + 0.0429)*(1 + 0.03) - 1 = 7.42%. This only bumps Pyro/Assault DPS up to 2.8k, which is cripplingly low. If Pyro/Assault had pre-2.0 levels of burst, I could see penalizing the sustained DPS slightly (as we see with other burst classes), but the fact is that Pyro/Assault is much more of a DoT spec post-2.0, and AP/Tactics really has more on-demand burst. That's why things aren't quite balanced as they currently stand.”

 

There appears to be a level of disagreement between the theorycrafters and the combat team about the damage increase potential, more noticeably so with Burnout which KBN revealed to only offer a minor damage increase of around 3%. We as the Powertech community understand that asking for large changes to our spec could lead to balance issues, but there are a few ideas we would like the combat team to consider.

 

A. Probably the easiest of the changes to make, it has been noted on countless occasions that one of the biggest problems with the Pyrotech spec is that there are too many “goodies” in the low-tiers of the AP and Shield Tech trees. One suggestion that we had that would NOT affect any Shield Tech or AP build, but benefit Pyro greatly, would be to swap Integrated Cardio Package (tier 1 of Pyrotech) with Hyper Fuel (tier 2 of Shield Tech). This would give Pyro players a 6% damage boost to all fire-based abilities.

 

B. A common complaint about Pyrotech is that the trees abilities lack synergy with one another, with Thermal Detonator and Incendiary Missile just kind of being “there”. Another suggestion would be to add a small-to-moderate amount of armor penetration to the initial kinetic damage from Thermal Detonator, around 10-15%, that is only offered when Incendiary Missile is on the target. This would encourage the use of the ability, discourage hybrid builds (since Thermal Detonator is the cap-stone ability), and increase the overall damage that Pyrotech does.

 

 

 

 

EDIT!!!!

 

I had this suggestion written up:

 

C. A final concern is in relation to the set-bonuses. In your Scoundrel class questions, the combat team made note that they are not currently satisfied with set bonuses across the board for all classes. For PVE, many Pyro and AP players feel underwhelmed by the 2-piece bonus (decrease of 15 seconds to the cooldown of Explosive Fuel) since many prefer to time up Explosive Fuel with their Boundless Ages relic (a 2-min cooldown). For PVP, the Eliminator 4-piece bonus (+15% to Rail Shot crit chance) is a necessity for providing burst damage. Can we expect to see a change to our PVE and PVP set-bonuses any time soon?

 

But it really doesn't fit the topic. Honestly, they said they are not happy with the set bonuses across most classes, and they said in the Scoundrel questions that they're not ready to reveal/discuss the new ideas...I think we should drop the set-bonus questions.

Edited September 13, 2013 by ScytheEleven

[Brunner_Venda]

Tear apart as you see fit guys. These are my ideas for our questions.

 

If you think anything could be improved, changed, or omitted, I am glad to do that.

 

Also, lets see what else the rest of you can come up with.

 

We should take your question 2 as-is, the math and the set bonus is spot on to fix both PVP and PVE pyrotechs. When you hit the devs with math, they can't necessarily come back with "LOL Perception problem"

 

Question three is a little long winded, and to be honest we should reserve one or two questions for tanks. I play mostly AP, and it doesn't need any more help for the most part, but tanks need a few serious quality of life issues sorted in shielding, defense, PVE, and DPS.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Brunner_Venda

[Brunner_Venda]

I've also got to disagree with swapping Integrated cardio for Hyper fuel.

 

That would nerf tank damage, they need hyper fuel to increase the damage (and threat) of flame engine. Sure they can still get it in the pyro tree, but then they can't carve as many needed goodies out of the AP tree and they have to waste three points on a crap skill to top off the tank tree.

 

Plus integrated cardio sucks for the points, nobody is going to blow three talent points for 3% extra health (what 900 or so extra health? No thanks.). That's a nerf.

 

We need to keep any suggestions that cannibalize one of our trees for another out of our questions. If a fix you want will ruin another spec, the answer is no. Think of something else.

 

For the record I don't play a tank, but I've got your back.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Brunner_Venda

[ScytheEleven]

I've also got to disagree with swapping Integrated cardio for Hyper fuel.

 

That would nerf tank damage, they need hyper fuel to increase the damage (and threat) of flame engine. Sure they can still get it in the pyro tree, but then they can't carve as many needed goodies out of the AP tree and they have to waste three points on a crap skill to top off the tank tree.

 

Plus integrated cardio sucks for the points, nobody is going to blow three talent points for 3% extra health (what 900 or so extra health? No thanks.). That's a nerf.

 

We need to keep any suggestions that cannibalize one of our trees for another out of our questions. If a fix you want will ruin another spec, the answer is no. Think of something else.

 

For the record I don't play a tank, but I've got your back.

 

Actually, my main spec as a PT right now is Shield Tech...and as Mathemagica and I pointed out on the previous page, swapping Cardio Package and Hyper Fuel still allows PVE and PVP Shield Tech's to access it.

 

This is the common Shield Tech PVE build:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMGrdoroMdRRZbcZbc.3

 

As a PVE tank, what else am I going to put those three points into? Jet Speed? A snare on Ion Cell, Grapple, or Flame Sweep? That doesn't do anything for me. Advanced Tools? We already have Flame Engine, what's the point of lowering the cooldown of Flamethrower when we get a free one/reset it's CD every 15 seconds...and Grapple doesn't need a lower cooldown, since you would really only use it at the start of the fight anyway.

 

You could make the arguement that you should put one point into Prototype Cylinders, but there was math done showing that it was actually kind of a "meh" talent for tanks...since our biggest tick of Ion Cell comes off the last tick and we are constantly trying to refresh it anyway to proc Heat Screens. To be honest, I do forget where that math was posted though...

 

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301.3

 

EDIT:

 

Side note, I derped. The set bonus changes were addressing just Scoundrels/OPs...I thought I read it was for everyone >_> Set bonus question would be good for our "Other" question aka question 3.

Edited September 13, 2013 by ScytheEleven

[Brunner_Venda]

Actually, my main spec as a PT right now is Shield Tech...and as Mathemagica and I pointed out on the previous page, swapping Cardio Package and Hyper Fuel still allows PVE and PVP Shield Tech's to access it.

 

This is the common Shield Tech PVE build:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GMGrdoroMdRRZbcZbc.3

 

As a PVE tank, what else am I going to put those three points into? Jet Speed? A snare on Ion Cell, Grapple, or Flame Sweep? That doesn't do anything for me.

 

You could make the arguement that you should put one point into Prototype Cylinders, but there was math done showing that it was actually kind of a "meh" talent for tanks...since our biggest tick of Ion Cell comes off the last tick and we are constantly trying to refresh it anyway to proc Heat Screens. To be honest, I do forget where that math was posted though...

 

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301.3

 

Prototype cylinders and prototype burn enhancers. That's 6% crit on all fire effects (flame engine!) and 8% ion cylinder damage. More damage is more threat, and that has to be more useful than less than a thousand health.

 

Like I said though, I only PVP. I've only run tank spec (read: badly geared) a few times to keep a healer alive in overworld PVP. I always took the extra snares for peeling people off of my guarded target.

[ScytheEleven]

Prototype cylinders and prototype burn enhancers. That's 6% crit on all fire effects (flame engine!) and 8% ion cylinder damage. More damage is more threat, and that has to be more useful than less than a thousand health.

 

Like I said though, I only PVP. I've only run tank spec (read: badly geared) a few times to keep a healer alive in overworld PVP. I always took the extra snares for peeling people off of my guarded target.

 

The beautiful thing about Shield Tech in PVE is if you know the class, threat generation is laughable. The 6% crit and the 8% Ion Damage aren't really needed, and you can take all the snares for a 36-point PVP build w/o having to take Cardio Package (if Cardio Package was in the ST tree)

 

That's just my 2 cents. If more people disagree with swapping Cardio Package/Hyper Fuel, then I won't be a stubborn mule about it

Edited September 13, 2013 by ScytheEleven

[Brunner_Venda]

The beautiful thing about Shield Tech in PVE is if you know the class, threat generation is laughable. The 6% crit and the 8% Ion Damage aren't really needed, and you can take all the snares for a 36-point PVP build w/o having to take Cardio Package (if Cardio Package was in the ST tree)

 

That's just my 2 cents. If more people disagree with swapping Cardio Package/Hyper Fuel, then I won't be a stubborn mule about it

 

You know what they'll do right? Hyper fuel is too good to be a tier 1 ability with a 6% damage increase. They would cut that to 3%.

 

The net effect is a damage nerf, lets leave it. There are better ways to fix pyro, and that lies in making the skills work together (lots of suggestions on that front).

 

You want to help the tank class, increase integrated cardio to 3% endurance per point, and leave it where it is. I don't see why endurance only gets 1% boost per point where steely resolve gets 3% per point on aim. I'm almost afraid to point this out though, because the derp devs will just nerf steely resolve to 1% (see? Fixed! Trololol)

[ellenbec]

The only issue I have with swapping Hyper Fuel and Integrated Cardio Package is that PvE Shield Tech is now backed into the corner of speccing into either a) A talent that gives (myself personally) 800 extra health (very VERY meh for 3 talent points), b) Neural Overload which has zero impact upon Boss and Champion level mobs c) No Escape that has zero impact upon Boss and Champion level mobs or d) Jet Speed which provides a very small run speed boost that for Shield Tech doesn't need it in the world of Jet Charge and Hydrolic Overrides. I know that I went on about our Gap Closing issues as a AC, but of the three trees, Shield Tech doesn't have as big of issues on it compared to the two dps specs.

 

I agree that the removal of Hyper Fuel from Shield Tech to Pyrotech though would benefit Pyro greatly. The lack of Hyper Fuel though within the Shield Tech tree though would affect TPS and DPS adversely. (As I have brought up before) Yes TPS and holding aggro are trivial if you know what you are doing, but Tank DPS is still important in the grand scheme of things when it comes to Devs designing Boss Fights due to Enrage Timers and Boss Health (see Thrasher and the increased damage dealt buff that tanks receive during the fight to compensate for DPS being split off regularly to deal with Sniper adds)

[ellenbec]

I took your basic ideas for one of your questions Ellenbec and tried to clean it up a little bit...let me know if I misunderstood your intentions:

 

 

1. In response to many concerns about Pyrotech DPS, the combat team has cited that Pyrotech’s dummy DPS does not reflect a “true raid” scenario since the armor debuff and Burnout do not come into play. However, a widely respected theorycrafter by the name of KeyboardNinja on the forums put forth this statement:

 

“On a less acerbic note, I totally agree that Pyro/Assault is unjustifiably low right now. The best parse I've seen from Pyro/Assault on the PTS is in the mid 2.6k range. The armor debuff will increase damage dealt by 0.5 * ((1 - 0.3 * (1 - 0.2)) / (1 - 0.3) - 1) = 4.29%, while the execute increases damage dealt by about 3%. Thus, a raid boss shows higher DPS by (1 + 0.0429)*(1 + 0.03) - 1 = 7.42%. This only bumps Pyro/Assault DPS up to 2.8k, which is cripplingly low. If Pyro/Assault had pre-2.0 levels of burst, I could see penalizing the sustained DPS slightly (as we see with other burst classes), but the fact is that Pyro/Assault is much more of a DoT spec post-2.0, and AP/Tactics really has more on-demand burst. That's why things aren't quite balanced as they currently stand.”

 

There appears to be a level of disagreement between the theorycrafters and the combat team about the damage increase potential, more noticeably so with Burnout which KBN revealed to only offer a minor damage increase of around 3%. We as the Powertech community understand that asking for large changes to our spec could lead to balance issues, but there are a few ideas we would like the combat team to consider.

 

A. Probably the easiest of the changes to make, it has been noted on countless occasions that one of the biggest problems with the Pyrotech spec is that there are too many “goodies” in the low-tiers of the AP and Shield Tech trees. One suggestion that we had that would NOT affect any Shield Tech or AP build, but benefit Pyro greatly, would be to swap Integrated Cardio Package (tier 1 of Pyrotech) with Hyper Fuel (tier 2 of Shield Tech). This would give Pyro players a 6% damage boost to all fire-based abilities.

 

B. A common complaint about Pyrotech is that the trees abilities lack synergy with one another, with Thermal Detonator and Incendiary Missile just kind of being “there”. Another suggestion would be to add a small-to-moderate amount of armor penetration to the initial kinetic damage from Thermal Detonator, around 10-15%, that is only offered when Incendiary Missile is on the target. This would encourage the use of the ability, discourage hybrid builds (since Thermal Detonator is the cap-stone ability), and increase the overall damage that Pyrotech does.

 

 

 

 

EDIT!!!!

 

I had this suggestion written up:

 

C. A final concern is in relation to the set-bonuses. In your Scoundrel class questions, the combat team made note that they are not currently satisfied with set bonuses across the board for all classes. For PVE, many Pyro and AP players feel underwhelmed by the 2-piece bonus (decrease of 15 seconds to the cooldown of Explosive Fuel) since many prefer to time up Explosive Fuel with their Boundless Ages relic (a 2-min cooldown). For PVP, the Eliminator 4-piece bonus (+15% to Rail Shot crit chance) is a necessity for providing burst damage. Can we expect to see a change to our PVE and PVP set-bonuses any time soon?

 

But it really doesn't fit the topic. Honestly, they said they are not happy with the set bonuses across most classes, and they said in the Scoundrel questions that they're not ready to reveal/discuss the new ideas...I think we should drop the set-bonus questions.

 

I definitely went long winded on Topic 3, but wanted to bring as much to the plate as I could about utility for both DPS specs. My personal opinion is that point A is just a weird change that would impact Shield Tech more negatively than it would benefit Pyro positively. I see Hyper Fuel as far too integral to the Shield Tech build, particularly given the options to invest those points (I detest Integrated Cardio Package with a passion. That 800 health is NOT going to keep me alive really whereas the damage boost from Hyper Fuel will actually kill something faster).

 

I think that including point C, but rewording it a bit to actually show that it would be a DPS increase for Pyro would be a good thing.

 

One other way to positively affect Pyrotech's possible DPS output and outgoing burst profile can be affected via set bonuses. Currently the 4p PvE Combat Tech and Eliminator's set provides only a 8% increase in Rail Shot damage, and the Combat Tech 2p PvE set bonus of a 15 second CD reduction on Explosive Fuel causes desyncing of use with TSO and the Boundless Ages Relic for On Demand Burst. Whereas though the 4p PvP Eliminator's set provides an addition 15% crit chance to Rail Shot. This crit chance would bring Rail Shot up to the 40%-45% crit chance range, supplying it with a higher damage profile and makes the Firebug talent provide more of an impact due to a higher chance of each Rail Shot critting to provide the increased Surge Damage.

Providing a bonus to the Eliminator's PvP set to the Eliminator's PvE set on the 4p would not only benefit PT Pyro, but Merc Pyro as well, and would not cause PT AP to be required to take the 4p Eliminator's set due to already having a auto crit mechanic to Rail Shot via Charged Gauntlets.

[Mathemagica]

Ellenbecs questions.

 

Hm... I don't know how the combat team would think about it, but to me these questions seem to be several questions squeezed into one. This might bring us two possible problems:

 

1) (This one is less likely) The combat team won't take these questions, because they think these are more than just 3 questions.

2) (This one seems quite likely to me) The combat team won't touch all the topics in their answer or not in so much detail as we want them to.

 

They are also very long.

 

That's all I can come up with right now. I have to think my additions through before I post them. I hope that my input will be ready to be posted tomorrow.

[ellenbec]

I've read through some of the other AC questions, and they have done much the same as well, presented multi-part questions as one specific question.

 

Like i said though, tear apart the questions. This was just my idea of what to present. The more input we have for these, the better answers we can get.

 

If anyone is willing to zip over to the VG forums and let them know we are working on our questions now, they are more than welcome to come over and give their input as well.

[Zoom_VI]

Prototype cylinders and prototype burn enhancers. That's 6% crit on all fire effects (flame engine!) and 8% ion cylinder damage. More damage is more threat, and that has to be more useful than less than a thousand health.

 

Your not understanding ion Cylinder and Prototype cylinders talent properly. Ion Cylinder isn't actually the dot. IC itself is just a single tick that procs off certain abilities. The Dot that your thinking of is from a talent in the second teir of ST, and its damage is not related to IC other than proccing of it. The 8% damage only affects that single IC tick not the dot that follows. Its a terrible skill for anyone using IC, I do remember the math on it and it adds approx. 3k more damage dealt over a fifteen minute fight

 

Also, I do not like the idea of nerf ST's dps just to convenience pyro, from both a PvE and PvP perspective. In PvP PT tanks have the lowest single target damage by far, with biggest hits barely scra ping the 3k mark (assuming 36pt in tank gear), and our relatively superb AoE dps means nothing in PvP, as even the best tank AoE is still to pathetic to even provide marginal pressure on the healer. Compared to juggs that can get 3k ticks on ravage with 4-5k executes, the same can be said for Sins as well.

 

In PvE tank dps ideally doesn't matter, but in the high tiers of current content, the enrage timers are so close that even the tank must have certain dps.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[ellenbec]

Yeah Prototype Cylinders is a terrible talent. Personal choice dictates what you spec into with the last few points. I personally feel the 1 point investment of it though isn't THAT bad, since it is a threat increase vs what ever else you could invest it in.

 

I guess when it comes to that talent point, you are looking at either a 8% damage increase against 1% additional health. Or 3% increased damage on Flame Burst possibly.

 

I still don't understand you guys and your silly obsession with Integrated Cardio Package

Edited September 13, 2013 by ellenbec

[Zoom_VI]

Yeah Prototype Cylinders is a terrible talent. Personal choice dictates what you spec into with the last few points. I personally feel the 1 point investment of it though isn't THAT bad, since it is a threat increase vs what ever else you could invest it in.

 

I guess when it comes to that talent point, you are looking at either a 8% damage increase against 1% additional health?

 

I still don't understand you guys and your silly obsession with Integrated Cardio Package

 

Because a talent that gives all of 3.33 more damage per second is totally worth it, in raid content where the DPS'es TPS is measured in the 2 to 3 thousands (excluding the guy that's guarded)

 

Compared to a talent that gives 1% more hp per point, which has a direct relationship on the tanks ability to survive burst, (not to mention increase in self healing)

Edited September 13, 2013 by Zoom_VI

[ellenbec]

Because a talent that gives all of 3.33 more damage per second is totally worth it, in raid content where the DPS'es TPS is measured in the 2 to 3 thousands (excluding the guy that's guarded)

 

Compared to a talent that gives 1% more hp per point, which has a direct relationship on the tanks ability to survive burst, (not to mention increase in self healing)

 

I will give you the increased self heal part, but ~ 200 health is not going to save you like you think it is really. And our self heal is not as strong as say an Assassin's, but then again their entire tanking kit is based around their self heals.

 

This I think is going to be a point that you and I will not agree upon in the least. I do respect your's and other's opinion on this though. My own personal preference though sides with increasing any possible outgoing TPS and DPS that I can, and not spending points in a talent that cannot provide (IMO) the same impact.

 

For example: With ICP, assuming the added 800 health brings you to 1800 health at the bottom of your health pool, whereas w/o ICP your bottom of your health pool is now at 1000 health. Incoming boss damage that is not dodged or shielded has to exceed 1801 damage, which many basic attacks will easily clear off. How does that 3% really benefit you from a non self heal stand point? The only time that that extra 3% health will save you is if the incoming damage dealt is if it is from 1 to 1799.

 

Going through one of the last logs that I posted to TorParse, taking my Tu'chuk incoming damage, a completed 4 strikes of Frenzied Swing, and assuming I am within listed 1800-1000 health range, would drop me no matter whether I was specced into Integrated Cardio Package or not.

 

 

But, as I said, this is my opinion, my tanking style, and I find that I do not need the extra health from Integrated Cardio Package.

[easeyway]

My question for the Pyros would be:

 

Why does a 2nd highest tier talent (Rapid Venting) grant Alacrity to a spec that is killed by it?

 

At the moment, alacrity does not shorten the internal cooldown of Prototype Particle Accelerator. This Cooldown is 6 seconds. This just happens to be 4 Global Cooldowns. By shortening GCD, you are possibly killing your heat management and damage as a Pyrotech Powertech, as you now need 5 GDCs to proc, instead of 4. This also means that you are able to use Rail Shot less often.

 

Is this intended, or a bug? If this is indeed intended, what is your justification for it? If this is a bug, would you be so kind as to fix this as soon as possible?

Edited September 14, 2013 by easeyway

[bbrooks]

Because a talent that gives all of 3.33 more damage per second is totally worth it, in raid content where the DPS'es TPS is measured in the 2 to 3 thousands (excluding the guy that's guarded)

 

Compared to a talent that gives 1% more hp per point, which has a direct relationship on the tanks ability to survive burst, (not to mention increase in self healing)

 

I dont necessarily disagree that prototype cylinders is an underwhelming talent. That being said it is easily the best of many bad options in PVE. I do not claim to know much about pvp tanking, as my sorc is my pvp toon, but you are overlookng the fact that the IC damage is not a 1:1 damage to threat ratio.

 

Checking my logs from my guilds NiM TFB last week, the average hit for my IC was 240 damage. The average threat per use however was 480, which obviously shows it has a 100% threat boost. My IC ended up at about 40 tps, which again sounds minimal, but if I tend to proc it close to 5 times in the first 30 seconds of a pull, and with ES up it crits about 40% of the time. All in all it ends up being about 1400 threat just from IC, which can make or break your pull.

 

I'm not advocating that it is an amazing skill, but with the current skill trees in pve it is 100% worth speccing into, just because there is no better option. I would love to see them add the damage boost to the shocked dot also, but i can't figure that is very high on their list of things to do.

 

Edit: I would love to see them maybe give prototype cylinder a higher chance to proc our charge on something like rapid shots. Even though the dot hits very weakly, the threat to damage ration is right around 8:1

Edited September 15, 2013 by bbrooks

[Brunner_Venda]

Isnt the 6% crit bonus on ALL fire effects from prototype burn enhancers any good? Tanks use a lot of sweep, FB, and flame engine. Burn enhancers can take you from an average 25% crit to 31% for those skills, which isn't half bad for a tier 1.

 

Hot iron could work too, but 6% damage increase to flame burst doesn't strike me as useful because you can't get retractable blade.

 

 

I dont necessarily disagree that prototype cylinders is an underwhelming talent. That being said it is easily the best of many bad options in PVE. I do not claim to know much about pvp tanking, as my sorc is my pvp toon, but you are overlookng the fact that the IC damage is not a 1:1 damage to threat ratio.

 

Checking my logs from my guilds NiM TFB last week, the average hit for my IC was 240 damage. The average threat per use however was 480, which obviously shows it has a 100% threat boost. My IC ended up at about 40 tps, which again sounds minimal, but if I tend to proc it close to 5 times in the first 30 seconds of a pull, and with ES up it crits about 40% of the time. All in all it ends up being about 1400 threat just from IC, which can make or break your pull.

 

I'm not advocating that it is an amazing skill, but with the current skill trees in pve it is 100% worth speccing into, just because there is no better option. I would love to see them add the damage boost to the shocked dot also, but i can't figure that is very high on their list of things to do.

[bbrooks]

Isnt the 6% crit bonus on ALL fire effects from prototype burn enhancers any good? Tanks use a lot of sweep, FB, and flame engine. Burn enhancers can take you from an average 25% crit to 31% for those skills, which isn't half bad for a tier 1.

 

Yea sorry, i spec into bun enhancers also. And you're right, the fb damage is minimal at best, since ideally we only use it to keep combust up.

[Mathemagica]

Concerning Integrated Cardio Package: I don't like Integrated Cardio Package either, but it wouldn't be completely crazy. I would prefer it if they replaced some talents in the two lowest tiers by new ones and redistributed them in a 'good way'. It just seems strange that a dps tree has so many fundamental boosts just out of reach.

 

About our questions in general: I recommend you to take a look at the Shadows questions. KBN did something very interesting by listing additional issues simply as feedback, without including them in the actual questions. Depending on how the devs will react to this, this seems a very good idea for us as well, since we have several smaller things that should be brought up, but aren't the core issues. (e.g: The basic attacks of Bounty Hunters and Commandos has a different number of ticks which favors one faction when it comes to cylinder procs. Grapple generating less threat than Force Pull.)

If we follow KBNs example, we could get our questions more focused and less 'overloaded', while still delivering all the feedback we want to.

 

About Pyrotech: Is there anyone active in this thread, who can test Pyrotech on the PTS? The numbers on the PTS should represent the state of Pyrotech in the near future, so they are more relevant than our current live numbers.

[easeyway]

I don't recommend going that road: "look, we parsed this, this proves we are underpowered".

 

We'll just get the same sort of response like VGs: "Dummies don't go below 30%, you don't have armor pen guy helping you, you're just bad l2p" etc. They have their metrics, they'll believe their metrics over our parses.

 

 

I'm really disappointed at the community of this game, and how these class questions are shaping up to be like.

 

Everybody are basically complaining and asking for buffs. If you look at the questions, everybody seems to be underpowered, even marauders/sentinels.

 

This is a question: Why does Rapid Venting grant alacrity, since speccing this means that the Pyro will be able to do less Rail Shots per minute, and thus vent less heat per minute. Why spec to a talent that is detrimental to both damage and energy management? What is the purpose of this talent?

 

See, I didn't tell the developers that they are wrong, and that we needed a buff. I asked them a question. A QUESTION. Questions are not feedback. Read: "3 Questions to Devs".

 

People have a hard time understanding the concept of a question, as every "question" so far seems to start "The community feels like...".

 

Let's ask them clear and simple questions and get clear and simple answers, please.

Edited September 16, 2013 by easeyway

[TACeMossie]

Ok so here's what I would ask as my 3 Questions:

 

1. TANKING

 

Currently, the best mitigation is provided by stacking Defense over Absorb, however a lot of talents in the Shield Tech tree only take effect when an attack is shielded (e.g. Hydrolic Shield), making it so tanks have to choose between optimal mitigation or optimal threat. Have the devs ever looked at the possibility to modify some of the talents in the tree so they provide more Shield Chance, making prioritising Absorb over Defense a better choice?

 

2. MOBILITY

 

Of all 3 trees, only one of them has a way to reliably close the distance in a short time - The Shield Tech tree. However, Jet Charge is not only too far up the tree to be usable at all in other specs, but without it there is a 45 second cooldown on the gap closer (30 seconds in AP). Are there any plans to make it easier for DPS specs to close the distance for their short-to-melee range abilities?

 

3. PYROTECH

 

While the changes in the PTS are all great for soloing content and PvP, the high-end damage skills for pyrotech are still a little weak. Skills like Hyper Fuel, Hot Iron, Advanced Tools and Prototype Cylinders all do much more for a pyrotech than Thermal Detonator, Degauss, Rapid Venting and Automated Defenses, making it so going any further than Burnout in the Pyrotech tree is just shooting yourself in the foot in Raid situations. This is further emphasised by a majority of the damage that Pyrotech does - Burns - is quickly cleansed in PvP.

 

So are there any plans to look at the low damage output and even detrimental aspects (Looking at you, rapid Venting) that the high-level skills in pyrotech give? A simple change such as making Rapid Vent simply increase energy regen instead of increasing alacrity could go a long way to getting pyrotechs to go that far up the tree...

[Zoom_VI]

I will give you the increased self heal part, but ~ 200 health is not going to save you like you think it is really. And our self heal is not as strong as say an Assassin's, but then again their entire tanking kit is based around their self heals.

 

This I think is going to be a point that you and I will not agree upon in the least. I do respect your's and other's opinion on this though. My own personal preference though sides with increasing any possible outgoing TPS and DPS that I can, and not spending points in a talent that cannot provide (IMO) the same impact.

 

For example: With ICP, assuming the added 800 health brings you to 1800 health at the bottom of your health pool, whereas w/o ICP your bottom of your health pool is now at 1000 health. Incoming boss damage that is not dodged or shielded has to exceed 1801 damage, which many basic attacks will easily clear off. How does that 3% really benefit you from a non self heal stand point? The only time that that extra 3% health will save you is if the incoming damage dealt is if it is from 1 to 1799.

 

Going through one of the last logs that I posted to TorParse, taking my Tu'chuk incoming damage, a completed 4 strikes of Frenzied Swing, and assuming I am within listed 1800-1000 health range, would drop me no matter whether I was specced into Integrated Cardio Package or not.

 

 

But, as I said, this is my opinion, my tanking style, and I find that I do not need the extra health from Integrated Cardio Package.

 

The endurance is preference, but if your going for more DPS and TPS, Prototype Cylinders is the worst way ever. Taking any of the RS boost talents or the elemental damage boost or rocket punch boost or any of the other available boost at all, provide more DPS and TPS that Prototype cylinders.

 

honestly you could put a point into the flame burst damage boost from the same teir in AP and it would be greater TPS than cynlinders.

[easeyway]

Ok so here's what I would ask as my 3 Questions:

 

1. TANKING

 

Currently, the best mitigation is provided by stacking Defense over Absorb, however a lot of talents in the Shield Tech tree only take effect when an attack is shielded (e.g. Hydrolic Shield), making it so tanks have to choose between optimal mitigation or optimal threat. Have the devs ever looked at the possibility to modify some of the talents in the tree so they provide more Shield Chance, making prioritising Absorb over Defense a better choice?

 

2. MOBILITY

 

Of all 3 trees, only one of them has a way to reliably close the distance in a short time - The Shield Tech tree. However, Jet Charge is not only too far up the tree to be usable at all in other specs, but without it there is a 45 second cooldown on the gap closer (30 seconds in AP). Are there any plans to make it easier for DPS specs to close the distance for their short-to-melee range abilities?

 

3. PYROTECH

 

While the changes in the PTS are all great for soloing content and PvP, the high-end damage skills for pyrotech are still a little weak. Skills like Hyper Fuel, Hot Iron, Advanced Tools and Prototype Cylinders all do much more for a pyrotech than Thermal Detonator, Degauss, Rapid Venting and Automated Defenses, making it so going any further than Burnout in the Pyrotech tree is just shooting yourself in the foot in Raid situations. This is further emphasised by a majority of the damage that Pyrotech does - Burns - is quickly cleansed in PvP.

 

So are there any plans to look at the low damage output and even detrimental aspects (Looking at you, rapid Venting) that the high-level skills in pyrotech give? A simple change such as making Rapid Vent simply increase energy regen instead of increasing alacrity could go a long way to getting pyrotechs to go that far up the tree...

 

 

 

The above are all good points. However, I'd like to add that in 2.4 there's already been significant improvements to Pyro heat management (Incendiary Missile 16 heat only).

 

Much easier fix to this talent would be if at the same time it decreased the internal cooldown of Prototype Particle Accelerator (The rail shot proc talent 6 seconds CD) by the same 2% it grants alacrity. I am currently testing this as it seems some alacrity still allows for 4 GDC rail proc, but that might just be lag (shouldn't really, as there is the ability queue window that should rule out ping difference, as the server gets the command to cast an ability way ahead, 1 second in advance for max setting (1000ms ping coverage)).

Edited September 16, 2013 by easeyway