[Class Questions] Let's Start Fresh: 3 Questions to Devs RE: Powertechs

[Brunner_Venda]

Yes, I am acknowledging that our dps shouldn't be as high as a mara or sniper purely because we have a tank tree.

 

Not to be a jerk, but what does the above statement have to do with the price of tea in china?

 

So we have a second-best tank tree that is so far behind guardians, that it isn't taken into rated matches. Therefore, it's perfectly okay for our DPS trees to be 200 points behind others in PVE, and generally suck in PVP.

 

Given the plethora of escapes, mitigation, CC, gap closers, and defensive cooldowns available to maras and snipers, we are certainly entitled to the same class of DPS. How the hell else do the classes balance? Do we bring more mitigation? Do we DPS better? Do we CC more? Do we survive better? Do we shut down healers easier? Do we guard nodes better? Do we run the huttball better? The answer to every single one of these questions is "NO!"

[Melon_Lord]

I don't like how people are specifically saying 200 DPS behind Snipers and Mara, which is laughable with a full tree, can AP regularly break 2800 without being in 75 gear? You should just be mentioning we are not within the 5% limit Devs had set on their own, therefore, we obviously are not working as intended because we are failing to meet the standards initially intended for a full tree build.

[nadiel]

Bottom line is i'm ok with mara's and snipers being better at DPS, but it should be competitive regardless of having the option to tank or heal. Only being able to clear content by bringing a specific grouping of classes is ridiculous. 4 PT DPS should be able to clear all content in game based on player skill, not class and mechanics limitations

[Ottoattack]

Bottom line is i'm ok with mara's and snipers being better at DPS, but it should be competitive regardless of having the option to tank or heal. Only being able to clear content by bringing a specific grouping of classes is ridiculous. 4 PT DPS should be able to clear all content in game based on player skill, not class and mechanics limitations

 

Just to make things clearer for class balance in PvP side rely on the following factors:

 

Burst Damage

Sustained Damage

Survivability

 

For a lesser extent:

 

Utility

Mobility

 

Marauder has then highest suvivability, strongest burst damage and strong sustained damage with strong mobility and arguably best utility.

 

Sniper has reasonable survivability, strong burst damage and strongest sustained damage with low mobility, but 35 m range and okay utility.

 

PT has worst survivability among all dps classes, weak burst and mediocre sustained damage with best mobility and reasonable utility.

 

I can go on and on with all classes, but just comparing PT to marauder who is vastly superior in every aspect, do you think just adding a bit of improvement in damage will make the class balanced?! Obviously not.

 

BTW having a tank tree or healing tree does not justify that dps tree should not be as strong as other dps classes UNLESS skills from tank or healing tree can be utilized as a dps. The only thing dps PT can utilize from the tank tree is that they have heavy armor, but needless to say that heavy armor means nothing, because defensive capabilities are what plays major role in damage mitigation, where dps PTs fall flat. Did you know that rage marauder have even higher base armor than dps PTs?

 

In essence, PT is always going to be compared to the following classes, sin, jugg and marauder. Pre-expansion dps PT had a specific niche that gave them a specific purpose on any PvP team composition, which was strongest burst damage with strong sustained damage and mobility, where the only way to stop a PT from tearing through your healer was to CC or kill him. It was easy to overlook the lack of defensive capabilities, because we offered a unique strong talent that other classes couldn't, specifically, that other melee classes couldn't perform as well as PT does. Now... all the above melee classes are much better in almost every aspect except mobility.

 

Aside from giving PT insane defensive capabilities as a dps class, the only option is to buff damage to pre-expansion era, otherwise the class will never be balanced. If they buff dps or defensive capabilities slightly we still will be a wasted spot on a ranked team.

 

You know what will be a good question for devs? What the heck where you smoking when you did the PT balance adjustments and where can I get some of it? (I mentioned my actual questions earlier, no need to repeat them again).

Edited July 31, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Heezdedjim]

Bottom line is i'm ok with mara's and snipers being better at DPS, but it should be competitive regardless of having the option to tank or heal. Only being able to clear content by bringing a specific grouping of classes is ridiculous. 4 PT DPS should be able to clear all content in game based on player skill, not class and mechanics limitations

The difference between "real" DPS ACs and tank or heal ACs with their DPS trees should be flexibility, not the ultimate top line parse results they can reach. The DPS classes should have the advantage of being able to specialize in burst, sustained single target, or AOE damage, with equal and high performance in every role. The heal and tank classes should just have less options, and those options should probably uniformly be either burst or sustained DPS roles, as well as their tank or heal tree. That would leave "real" DPS classes being the only ones who can spec for high AOE damage, so that they still have a qualitative advantage over the tank and heal classes that also can spec for DPS.

 

There is no good reason for heal and tank classes to be differentiated by simply being weaker. That just means that people avoid these classes for DPS, because they are known to be weak and a liability in any group vs. a "real" DPS class. Distinguishing them by their flexibility rather than by just making them weaker would mean any DPS spec can perform at the same, equally high level as any other, but only the DPS classes can spec for all three DPS specialties, while the others have only two out of three options. People would still have a compelling reason to play a DPS specialist if that's the role they always want to fill, but classes that have DPS as an off-spec would not be gimped if they decide to spec into DPS rather than their designated role.

[ScytheEleven]

IMO what AP needs is a buff to high energy cylinder, which would remove the incentive to go 22 points into AP and then use combust cylinder and talents that affect it. Full AP is not really far behind hybrid in PvE dps, and the defensives make it worth it for me on some fights, though I enjoy it less. Pyro needs some more meat in the top of the tree. TD hasn't been worth speccing into for PvE DPS in over a year.

 

I like the idea of buffing up the cylinders.

 

What if High-Energy Gas Cylinder got a 20% armor penetration attached to it, along with the elemental damage boost? That would buff Rail Shot and Rocket Punch.

 

I agree with you though. To make a full Pyro build appealing, TD must be made better.

Edited July 31, 2013 by ScytheEleven

[OlosBC]

Not to be a jerk, but what does the above statement have to do with the price of tea in china?

 

So we have a second-best tank tree that is so far behind guardians, that it isn't taken into rated matches. Therefore, it's perfectly okay for our DPS trees to be 200 points behind others in PVE, and generally suck in PVP.

 

Given the plethora of escapes, mitigation, CC, gap closers, and defensive cooldowns available to maras and snipers, we are certainly entitled to the same class of DPS. How the hell else do the classes balance? Do we bring more mitigation? Do we DPS better? Do we CC more? Do we survive better? Do we shut down healers easier? Do we guard nodes better? Do we run the huttball better? The answer to every single one of these questions is "NO!"

 

Agree. Stop saying this crap about how everyone should be lower than snipers and marauders. The revs have said there is no intention of a "hybrid tax".

 

When I spec full DPS on my ptech and wear, I'm not able to tank an operations boss. I have a taunt, but that's very rarely anything other than the ability to get killed first on a wipe.

 

 

Hybrid "utility" is the ability to toss a taunt or the occasional bad heal, which, except in rare occasions, doesn't comparewith the utility and defensive ccooldowns brought by maras and snipers. When those classes also bring the best DPS in addition to the best raid utility, is when there's a problem.

[Aetrus]

As far as the 3 questions go, just a quick 2 cents from me that I don't really think it has to be broken down into 1 PvP, 1 PvE and 1 tank question. If you ask a question about AP, Pyro and Shieldtech, I'm pretty sure that'd address the PvE concerns as long as you're asking it from a PvP perspective. Example would be if you found a way to get them to make TD attractive to take in WZs again, or gave Immolate a lower CD/higher burst dmg, that would necessarily void out the Hybrid specs being played in PvE and fix AP and Pyro there. I'm not exactly sure how broken they are, given that Drop It Like Its Hoth got world's first on NiM S&V running an AP PT, but hey, I don't PvE so that's out of my depth. Certainly they aren't nearly as crap as they are in PvP, where the TTK is outrageously long.

 

What I would like to see is for them to remake Energy Rebounder into a passive ability for all Powertechs, but remove the new Energy Redoubt proc from it. This would buff Shieldtech and Pyro. I think TD's nerf/change needs to be reverted and they should add an Energy Redoubt talent into the Pyro tree (hopefully replacing Volatile Igniter talent, because Flame Sweep is useless). That'd fix Pyro completely in PvP. As for AP, they need to buff Prototype Cylinders talent so that it isn't useless. Make it 6% increase elemental/internal damage instead of 1%, which is worthless. With Energy Rebounder removed from the tree, that leaves 2 points open for them to make a talent that lowers the CD of Immolate by 2.5/5 seconds or something similar. I also feel like Prototype Flamethrower should be automatically uninterruptable at 3 stacks (you could still stun/hard CC to interrupt it.) I think the damage increase I suggest for Prototype Cylinder and the CD reduction of Immolate would make AP very attractive in PvE as well as making it much less frustrating in PvP.

[quirez]

most important issues in my opinion (yes, i am a PVE'r , and such will be my questions)

 

1. Pyro is quite worthless and actually punishes you for going high up in the tree (above 22 points), will there be any changes to thermal detonator/ combustible gas cylinder / survivability in the tree?

 

2. AP is ok but still falls behind other AC's in dps capability - Immolate is too weak (make it hit at least 7k on crit or something) and on too long cooldown for a supposed-to-be best skill in the tree. AP cylinder bonus is laughable.

 

3. Lack of tanking cooldowns in tank tree. Kolto Overload is not a real tanking cd (not when we have saber reflect, resilience etc flying around...), its just a very, very minor health buffer that gives a minimum amount of time for your healer to react. Shoulder cannons heal WOULD be nice if it wasnt on such high CD and if all 4 rockets were ready at once. We rely on our passive defences FAR too much, and that needs to be changed.

 

I think all of those problems were mentioned earlier (in this thread on others), but still that is what bugs me the most about Powertechs.

[ScytheEleven]

most important issues in my opinion (yes, i am a PVE'r , and such will be my questions)

 

1. Pyro is quite worthless and actually punishes you for going high up in the tree (above 22 points), will there be any changes to thermal detonator/ combustible gas cylinder / survivability in the tree?

 

2. AP is ok but still falls behind other AC's in dps capability - Immolate is too weak (make it hit at least 7k on crit or something) and on too long cooldown for a supposed-to-be best skill in the tree. AP cylinder bonus is laughable.

 

3. Lack of tanking cooldowns in tank tree. Kolto Overload is not a real tanking cd (not when we have saber reflect, resilience etc flying around...), its just a very, very minor health buffer that gives a minimum amount of time for your healer to react. Shoulder cannons heal WOULD be nice if it wasnt on such high CD and if all 4 rockets were ready at once. We rely on our passive defences FAR too much, and that needs to be changed.

 

I think all of those problems were mentioned earlier (in this thread on others), but still that is what bugs me the most about Powertechs.

 

I'd be fine with PT tanking as just a passive tank...if, you know, we were THE passive tank. Juggs can match our armor rating. So either buff our passive defenses, or give us a shiny new win-button cool down.

[foxmob]

I think it's bogus that we get just one PvP, one PVE and one wild card question. I think we should organize our questions around each of the three specs. please seriously consider doing this. Here's my rationale:

 

Pyro: it's just about universally agreed upon that the capstone abil (TD) is junk and needs to be made worthwhile. That's an obvious and huge issue for Pyros in pvp and pve.

 

AP: this class is widely considered junk in both pvp and pve. even with the nerfs to pyro, pyro out parses AP. AP's heavy hitting ability is practically impossible to execute outside of a targeting dummy as it requires close range, doesn't root, and while it cannot be "interrupted," we can be stunned or the snare that it uses in lieu of a root is easily broken.

 

Tank: well...I can't speak for pve on this one, but it's the worst pvp tank in the game. almost all of it's utility can be covered by a pyro, and nothing about a PT tank is worth taking over a jugg tank in WZs (player skill being equal). all of that said, they're not bad the way AP seems to be.

[ceelaniri]

wild card question: why are PT/VG the only ACs without heal that cannot perform an execute? all the others have one.

 

Pyro's Burnout doesn't really count if you take into account Devouring Microbes (granted, not as potent but still here on top of an execute move) from Sniper's lethality tree.

[WillLongstick]

I've been trying to word this question on my own but can't get it to come out right. Essentially there's a VG/PT mirror asymmetry in regards to auto-attack. For Vanguards Hammer Shot is 7 separate attacks, and for Powertechs Rapid Shots is 5 separate attacks. For Shield Tech and Pyro specs, the cylinder's effect is to give a 15% chance for any damaging attack to proc a DoT. For Shield Tech that DoT proc also reduces the cooldown on Heat Blast, which is the only active mitigation a PT tank has. For Pyro the asymmetry is less important, but Rapid Shots is the only way for a PT to DoT a target farther than 10 meters away, allowing Rail Shot to light up (the need for this almost never comes up in PVE, but can be the difference in a PVP scenario).

 

The problem arises in that each separate damaging attack has a chance to proc the cylinder. So a Vanguard activating Hammer Shot has 7 chances to proc the cylinder, compared to a Powertech activating Rapid Shots having 5 chances to proc the cylinder. This works out to about a 50% chance for a Powertech to proc the cylinder, and a 62.5% chance for a Vanguard to proc the cylinder.

 

As for the format of how we should be asking the questions, I would be very hesitant to ask a question relating to PVE tanking. The Shield Tech tree is in a very good place right now, and asking "Can we have another CD" will likely get a response of "No," but at best will get a response of "No, your CD uptimes are more than comparable to the other tank classes, and you don't need a 5 second I WIN button against Force/Tech damage since your Force/Tech mitigation is miles above the other two classes."

 

My troll question to ask would be "Now that every other class is parsing 3k, can we have our PTS auto-critting pyro hybrid that parses 3k back?" But really, would like to see some love for Powertech DPS.

[Aetrus]

Pyro: it's just about universally agreed upon that the capstone abil (TD) is junk and needs to be made worthwhile. That's an obvious and huge issue for Pyros in pvp and pve.

 

AP: this class is widely considered junk in both pvp and pve. even with the nerfs to pyro, pyro out parses AP. AP's heavy hitting ability is practically impossible to execute outside of a targeting dummy as it requires close range, doesn't root, and while it cannot be "interrupted," we can be stunned or the snare that it uses in lieu of a root is easily broken.

 

Tank: well...I can't speak for pve on this one, but it's the worst pvp tank in the game. almost all of it's utility can be covered by a pyro, and nothing about a PT tank is worth taking over a jugg tank in WZs (player skill being equal). all of that said, they're not bad the way AP seems to be.

You're being melodramatic. AP is better than Pyro in PvP and parses higher in PvE. And PT tanks are fine in PvP. They don't have the raw tanking power Juggernauts do but they have better utility with pull and stealth scan and HO and shoulder cannon. I honestly think they're better in Huttball, too.

[CgSquall]

My main is a PT Tank currently in NiM content in PvE, I also PvP casually.

 

Something I would like to see is the defensive cd suite of the Powertech being reworked in some way.

 

In particular Kolto Overload being nearly useless in high-end PvE content. It triggers when only under 30% health, in NiM and most HM fights, you won't ever be under 30%, you'll go from 40 or 50% to dead in one second.

 

My biggest question/advice to the developers would be to either rework Kolto Overload so that it is a Force/Tech defense cooldown as the other two tanks have one (Saber Reflect for Juggs, Force Shroud for Assassins), but if they don't want that, to simply change the talent in Shield Tech from healing when above 30% max health for less, to having Kolto Overload trigger at say 50, 60 or 75% health, with the same "less healing when above that amount".

 

The latter would be the easier fix and would give one of our MAJOR defensive cooldowns an actual use in high-end raiding instead of being a waste.

[Marb]

I'll leave the question format and phrasing up to Feralpug, these are just my general ideas:

 

 

 

• 1) The PvE question should absolutely be about the hybrid issue we have, and the lack of good top tier skills compared to the mid tier of each tree. For elder game dps, hybrid is currently the only competitive spec, and it relies on the mercenary pvp 4p set bonus.
   
   
  
• 2) This could be a tank specific question, because it does effect pvp as well. The distinct lack of an anti Force/Tech cooldown is frustrating with the addition of saber reflect for juggernauts, making PT's the only tank class with no anti F/T cooldown. Dps powertechs also feel they lack defensive capabilities to stay alive to help their team in pvp.
   
   
  
• 3) This one is a wildcard, we could use this question to be very specific about an issue we feel is important, and not be general about it. We could ask about a gap closer, as with operatives being given the roll, we are now the only melee dps spec without a gap closer of some kind. Many feel hydraulic overrides is more defensive in nature to avoid knockbacks and break roots and snares, and it feels like a waste to use it for a minor speed boost to close to melee range. Grapple also does not serve this purpose, as it does not function in most operation encounters (the tanks would love that).
  

Edited August 3, 2013 by Marb

[Jawstheshark]

[quote=FeralPug;6605171summed up as:

1. AP's top tier talent should hit harder, Prototype Cylinder for HEGC is a very weak talent, FT is dodgy.

2. Shield lacks the utility, control and strong cooldowns of a Juggy.

3. Pyro relies too much on DoTs, has a weak 31 point talent and lacks strong defensive CD.

 

I primarily tank, and primarily do so in PVE encounters. So I will provide my sentiment towards #2

 

My operations peer is a Jugg tank. Right now there are only two scenarios where it is in our groups best interest to have me tank the baddies instead of him:

-- Encounters with mechanics that the ability to keep up decent threat at range is beneficial. (There are not many of these)

-- AOE dog piles

 

There is only one ability of mine that my peer would like, and that is Grapple. (Which is one of my favorites)

 

Two tank areas come into mind as needing attention upon looking at the mitigation mechanics:

-- The DR and point allotment of SR + AR on gear and bonuses from talents do not scale nearly as well as Defense as tanks get better gear

-- PT is in need of an additional mitigation 'happy' button, or a big rework of an existing ability. The summation to what PTs get in their toolbox compared to Juggs is not even a competition.

 

Suggestions:

-- The Heat Screen buff needs to be for both SR and AR

-- Coolant needs to allow Kolto Overload to trigger at any health percent below 100

-- Give us a talent that adds a reflective potential to our Energy Shield ability

 

Hope that helps you craft your question.

[CgSquall]

Honestly, we have higher mitigation values than a Juggernaut, it's comparable, yes, but not the same.

 

The difference in cooldowns is also comparable if you look at them based upon their up-time rather than simply "Invincible's DR is 40%, Energy Shield is 25%", the CD on Invincible, even specced, is 30 seconds longer, and it lasts less time. Also Oil Slick if used on cooldown every time, basically provides a 7.5% defense buff constantly by figuring out it's up-time.

 

The powertech cooldown suite is actually very well made and matched to the class as long as Kolto Overload is made viable for end-game raiding, or they add or tweak something to be a Force/Tech cooldown.

 

I honestly feel like you're doing something wrong, the Jugg in my raid is doing something wrong, or I'm doing something very right, if your raid would prefer the Juggernaut over the Powertech in most high end raid situations. Juggernauts are inherently more spiky than Powertechs due to the difference in their mitigation choices - and if you're using min/maxed mitigation numbers, the mean mitigation is actually higher for powertechs - and from talking to healers, many of them prefer to heal Powertechs over Juggernauts unless a boss enrages, in which case the superior short-term cd's of a Juggernaut saves them.

 

Please go over and read some of the tanking forums, yes, there is a lot of "juggernauts are the best tanks right now" talk, and it's true, overall they are with their better cooldowns, but we are not nearly as far behind as everyone thinks, and in Nightmare ops right now, it's all about mitigating spike damage, which Powertechs/Vanguards do best.

[Ottoattack]

Honestly, we have higher mitigation values than a Juggernaut, it's comparable, yes, but not the same.

 

The difference in cooldowns is also comparable if you look at them based upon their up-time rather than simply "Invincible's DR is 40%, Energy Shield is 25%", the CD on Invincible, even specced, is 30 seconds longer, and it lasts less time. Also Oil Slick if used on cooldown every time, basically provides a 7.5% defense buff constantly by figuring out it's up-time.

 

The powertech cooldown suite is actually very well made and matched to the class as long as Kolto Overload is made viable for end-game raiding, or they add or tweak something to be a Force/Tech cooldown.

 

I honestly feel like you're doing something wrong, the Jugg in my raid is doing something wrong, or I'm doing something very right, if your raid would prefer the Juggernaut over the Powertech in most high end raid situations. Juggernauts are inherently more spiky than Powertechs due to the difference in their mitigation choices - and if you're using min/maxed mitigation numbers, the mean mitigation is actually higher for powertechs - and from talking to healers, many of them prefer to heal Powertechs over Juggernauts unless a boss enrages, in which case the superior short-term cd's of a Juggernaut saves them.

 

Please go over and read some of the tanking forums, yes, there is a lot of "juggernauts are the best tanks right now" talk, and it's true, overall they are with their better cooldowns, but we are not nearly as far behind as everyone thinks, and in Nightmare ops right now, it's all about mitigating spike damage, which Powertechs/Vanguards do best.

 

PvE wise the difference margin is very small, but still Juggs are ahead due to stronger defensive cool downs. PvP Juggs are significantly better at protecting healers and can handle much more damage, so they are favorable in HB.

 

Again, PT tanks are good, but if you are second rated in almost every aspect, kind of defeats the purpose to bringing the class instead of another. PT tanks need to have a niche in which they are better. Currently there is none.

[MarkXXIV]

Don't forget about dps! Edited August 4, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[DogEyedBoy]

Something that I really feel should be brought to the developers attention is the imbalance of Hammer Shot being 7 attacks and Rapid Shots only being 5.

[ScytheEleven]

 

Again, PT tanks are good, but if you are second rated in almost every aspect, kind of defeats the purpose to bringing the class instead of another. PT tanks need to have a niche in which they are better. Currently there is none.

 

This.

 

PT are good tanks, it's just that Juggs do everything (except AoE threat gen and single target threat gen) a little bit better than we do. I'd love to see more shield chance added to, you know, the shield tech tree, and maybe boost our armor rating buff from 16% to 20%.

 

But more importantly, a force/tech cooldown would be nice.

[dijskykiller]

Here's my take to PT Tanking in Rated PvP.

 

Right now, the current Meta in ranked is to bring 2 tanks (1 Main-Tank, 1 Node-guard). Juggs are good choice for main-tanking due to their interrupts, good number of defensive CDs, and excellent mobility through jumps to both hostile and friendly. For node-guarding, Sins will always be the best choice since they have the ability to stealth, proficiency in 1v1 because of interrupts, sap and good burst. As for PTs, the way devs assigned skills on our tanking tree only explain that they want us to be viable on both node-guarding and main-tanking with no role specialization. This is the main reason why our class have been second rate tanks to run in rateds. The only way to fix this is to balance out PT with Jugg tanks.

 

To be effective in tanking role, we need to take considerable damage by using defensive CDs, mitigate incoming damage from our teammates through guard-switching and taunts, peel for teammates via stuns/interrupts, and have good overall mobility to stay in range of guarded teammate and allow easy switches.

 

Amongst these warzone roles, PTs fell behind on defensive CDs, and mobility. I would also like to add peeling, but i think combust is already a filler for PT's lack of peels.

 

Defensive CDs

I know that PTs are considered passive tanks, but with the buff to the immortal tree and the addition of a mechanic cheeser to Juggs, they are now both at the same level with taking smooth damage. I agree that the problem comes from how they buffed Juggs post 2.0, and not a fault in the ST tree.

 

To fix this, my suggestion is to increase PTs passive mitigation (armor/shield/absorb) if they don't plan to give us another CD. Sorry, but i have to bring this up here. One idea that came up in the tanking board is the redoubt talent of Paladins in WoW. Something similar to that would be good or a proc that increases our shield for 2-3 seconds in a 10-15 second lockout.

 

or

 

Give us another defensive CD. A rider on Oil Slick or another talent that is high up the ST tree.

 

I would also like to add that Shoulder Cannon is a little clunky in some situations where you need the quick boost of health and would be more effective if all 4 missiles are automatically loaded instantly. I prefer replacing the 5% damage boost of SC in shield cannon for the auto-fill of 4 missiles.

 

Mobility

Intercede is something that PTs can never match, especially in Huttball. But it's a map bias imo. If we have a capture the flag map, i think PTs will have be ahead of Juggs too. However, i find it really easy for Juggs to utilize their jumps around the battlefield making guard-switches a breeze. While PTs only have one jump without reset and Hydraulic Overrides to close the distance. In addition, HO as a gap-closer is easily countered by stuns, which makes it impossible to close the distance in an emergency situation.

 

To fix this, my suggestion would be a faster run speed with HO for PT tanks.

 

or

 

Add CC-immunity on the first 3-4 seconds of HO.

 

or

 

A talent rider in jet charge that allows us to jump to a friendly only when HO is up.

 

___________________________

 

 

I don't really have experience with progression PvE tanking, but here's what i found in the tanking board worth noting. Willlongstick summarized the balance between the 3 tank classes in terms of self-heals, defensive CDs and mechanic cheesers.

 

 

Self Heal:

 

Jugg – Endure Pain. Instant 15.2k heal. Refunds the health after 20 seconds (though it’s better to click it off when you’re good on health).

 

Sin – Overcharge Saber. Instant 5.7k heal. Causes Dark Charge to heal for roughly 60 HPS more than normal. Also has 25% DR tied in.

 

Powertech – Kolto Overload and Shoulder Cannon. Kolto Overload heals at 2800 HPS when under 30%, and 900 HPS when over 30%. That’s between 7.2k and 22.4k healing over 8 seconds. Shoulder Cannon heals 1900 HPS for 4 seconds, or 7.6k total. Active self healing can then range from 7k to 30k. Also has passive self healing when taking damage from AOE.

 

Notes: I argue with myself every day if Kolto Overload or Endure Pain is better. Kolto overload heals for a lot more, but Endure Pain wins against large spikes every time. Sins are definitely lagging in this department (looking only at the healing capabilities of the above, not any tied in DR).

 

Defense Chance:

 

Jugg – Saber Ward. 12 seconds of 50% defense chance increase, with the first 2-3 seconds being 100% defense chance. 2.5 minute CD gives it an uptime of 8% if used on cooldown. Also has a 25% damage reduction for Force/Tech attacks tied into it.

 

Sin – Deflection. 12 seconds of 50% defense chance increase. 2 minute CD gives it an uptime of 10%. Has no effect on Force/Tech attacks.

 

Powertech – Oil Slick. 17 seconds of 30% defense chance increase on targets in marked area. Raid members other than the PT tank can benefit from this effect. 1 minute CD gives an uptime of 28.3%. Has no effect on Force/Tech attacks.

 

Notes: Looking strictly at the above CD’s effects on Melee/Ranged damage we see good balance between the 3 tanks. Juggs and Sins are very similar, with Juggs getting a longer CD to penalize the 100% initial defense chance. Powertech’s have a smaller Defense Chance increase but this is balanced by Oil Slick having remarkable uptime, and the ability for Oil Slick to be used for the co-tank’s benefit (in fact, Oil Slick is the only CD you can pop for another tank).

 

Damage Reductions:

 

Jugg – Invincible. 40% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 12 seconds on a 2.5 minute CD giving an 8% uptime.

 

Jugg – Saber Ward. 25% damage reduction to all Force/Tech attacks (Kinetic or Internal). Lasts 12 seconds on a 2.5 minute CD giving an 8% uptime. Has 50% melee/defense chance increase tied to it.

 

Jugg – Total effect. Having 12 seconds of CD followed by 12 seconds of CD each on a 2.5 minute timer gives an uptime of 16%.

 

Sin – Overcharge Saber. 25% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 15 seconds on a 2 minute CD giving a 12.5% uptime. Has a 5.7k heal tied to it.

Powertech – Energy Shield. 25% damage reduction to all (Melee, Force, or Internal) attacks. Lasts 18 seconds on a 2 minute CD, giving a 15% uptime.

 

Notes: Sins and Powertechs are very similar in this department. They each have the same DR and same CD timer, and the longer effect on Energy Shield is balanced by the initial self heal for Sins. Juggs really pull away in this department by having 2 cooldowns that work against Force/Tech damage. Even though the uptimes are 12.5% - 15% - 16% (more balanced than initial appearances) being able to activate a CD at 2 separate times is a strong advantage.

 

I Win Buttons:

 

Jugg – Saber Reflect. 100% damage immunity to specific Ranged, Force, or Tech attacks. Lasts 5 seconds on a 1 minute CD giving an 8.3% uptime.

 

Sin – Force Shroud. 100% Resist chance to Force/Tech attacks. Last 5 seconds, and the cooldown is nominally 1 minute but can be reduced to around 45 seconds, giving an uptime between 8.3% and 11.1%.

 

Notes: Powertech’s aren’t on this list. There is nothing a PT can do to say “I win for the next 5 seconds.”

 

The asymmetries are that...

 

The asymmetries are that...

1) Sins fall behind in the initial self heal department (other 2 tanks balanced here).

2) Juggs are far ahead in the long duration cooldowns that work against Force/Tech damage (other 2 tanks balanced here).

3) Powertechs don’t have the “I win button” that has been a long time feature of Sin tanking and was handed to Juggs in 2.0.

 

Edited August 4, 2013 by dijskykiller

[Jawstheshark]

Honestly, we have higher mitigation values than a Juggernaut, it's comparable, yes, but not the same.

 

The difference in cooldowns is also comparable if you look at them based upon their up-time rather than simply "Invincible's DR is 40%, Energy Shield is 25%", the CD on Invincible, even specced, is 30 seconds longer, and it lasts less time. Also Oil Slick if used on cooldown every time, basically provides a 7.5% defense buff constantly by figuring out it's up-time.

 

The powertech cooldown suite is actually very well made and matched to the class as long as Kolto Overload is made viable for end-game raiding, or they add or tweak something to be a Force/Tech cooldown.

 

I honestly feel like you're doing something wrong, the Jugg in my raid is doing something wrong, or I'm doing something very right, if your raid would prefer the Juggernaut over the Powertech in most high end raid situations. Juggernauts are inherently more spiky than Powertechs due to the difference in their mitigation choices - and if you're using min/maxed mitigation numbers, the mean mitigation is actually higher for powertechs - and from talking to healers, many of them prefer to heal Powertechs over Juggernauts unless a boss enrages, in which case the superior short-term cd's of a Juggernaut saves them.

 

Please go over and read some of the tanking forums, yes, there is a lot of "juggernauts are the best tanks right now" talk, and it's true, overall they are with their better cooldowns, but we are not nearly as far behind as everyone thinks, and in Nightmare ops right now, it's all about mitigating spike damage, which Powertechs/Vanguards do best.

 

I never said the gap was huge, but it is there. For encounters with constant pounding, yes PT is not as spiky, I agree. But for encounters where you have to endure occasional huge events, that you use a CD for, Jugg is better almost every time.

 

I have not spent the time to run all the math, nor have I consumed every tanking post out there. Just going by reading talents/abilities, and first hand experience with who lives through a boss better.

 

From the post right above this one in the spoler box:

Conclusion:

1) Sins fall behind in the initial self heal department (other 2 tanks balanced here).

2) Juggs are far ahead in the long duration cooldowns that work against Force/Tech damage (other 2 tanks balanced here).

3) Powertechs don’t have the “I win button” that has been a long time feature of Sin tanking and was handed to Juggs in 2.0.

 

Very good compare info the spoiler box in that post.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Jawstheshark

[Srepos]

I really do hope they buff the AP spec:D