Im gonna start calling Tripple A MMO's "Barbie" MMO's.

[Callaron]

I would say in the West, as a fraction of the total game player market, yeah.. it is niche.

 

Now.. in Asia.. not so niche. MMOs are quite popular there... but still I think mobile games are going to kill MMOs in Asia over time.

 

Sure, if you count them as a genre like RPGs, FPS, RTS, etc - it'll probably be one of the smallest (if not the smallest) fraction.

But they are a lot more widespread than back in the days of UO and EQ, with some very diverse people playing them.

[WSRB]

MMO's are still and always will be a niche market. It's a complete myth that they are anything but. Take WoW and EQ out of the equation and you are left with a list of failed and break-even games. Two highly successful games in 20 years of MMO's does not a mainstream entertainment phenomenon make.

 

 

If "success" in creating an MMORPG must be defined as having millions of subscribers, then only World of Warcraft has ever succeeded: even Everquest at its peak never broke past 500k subscribers. I see companies continue to spend tens of millions of dollars developing and distributing MMORPGs... and then they turn around and run them profitably for years.

 

So, please define "failed" because you and I clearly do not share the same definition.

[hadoken]

If "success" in creating an MMORPG must be defined as having millions of subscribers, then only World of Warcraft has ever succeeded: even Everquest at its peak never broke past 500k subscribers. I see companies continue to spend tens of millions of dollars developing and distributing MMORPGs... and then they turn around and run them profitably for years.

 

So, please define "failed" because you and I clearly do not share the same definition.

 

You're talking two different things. You can absolutely be both successful and niche.

 

Compare the MMO industry to the console gaming one. That's what people mean when they say 'niche'

Edited July 25, 2013 by hadoken

[Andryah]

But they are a lot more widespread than back in the days of UO and EQ, with some very diverse people playing them.

 

Agreed. But the point remains.. as a fraction of total game plays, and total revenue in the gaming industry.. they are still very small.

 

Back in the days of UO and EQ.. there were no console games and no mobile gaming either, nor did every household have internet connected devices (today the US alone has 5.7 per household, 500 million, and many are tablets with game apps played by even Mom and the grandparents). So while MMOs player base has expanded greatly since the "old days" so has every other segment of gaming.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Andryah

[Callaron]

Agreed. But the point remains.. as a fraction of total game plays, and total revenue in the gaming industry.. they are still very small.

 

Back in the days of UO and EQ.. there were no console games and no mobile gaming either, nor did every household have internet connected devices (today the US alone has 5.7 per household, 500 million, and many are tablets with game apps played by even Mom and the grandparents). So while MMOs player base has expanded greatly since the "old days" so has every other segment of gaming.

 

True.

It's a good time to be a gamer, even a "niche" one.

[Andryah]

True.

It's a good time to be a gamer, even a "niche" one.

 

LOL... Indeed!

[WSRB]

You're talking two different things. You can absolutely be both successful and niche.

 

Compare the MMO industry to the console gaming one. That's what people mean when they say 'niche'

 

I wasn't debating whether or not the MMORPG genre is niche or not. The poster I was responding to claimed that every MMORPG other EQ and WoW was a failure: the measurement they were using was clearly whether or not the games achieved WoW-like subscription figures, as opposed to whether or not they maintained profitability for several years (which is the measurement that gaming companies and their investors use use).

 

 

As for "niche": MMORPGs are subsection of video games that generates over a billion dollars in combined annual revenue for the various companies that develop, distribute and run MMORPGs. By any market analyst's standards, it's tough to consider the market "just a niche".

 

Besides, "niche" itself is subjective. In the 1980s, comic book sales and readership were ten times what they are today, and yet they were considered a niche form of entertainment; today they are considered mainstream, but the best selling ongoing series from DC or Marvel Comics in 2013 would be on the chopping block for cancellation in 1983 for the same sales numbers.

Edited July 25, 2013 by WSRB

[LordArtemis]

World of Tanks is actually the most successful MMO in history, with over 60 million registered users. They also hold the record for most players playing on one server at the same time, set on 21st of January, 2013, 190,541 players on its RU2 server. The previous world record that they broke also belonged to them...91,311 concurrent players.

 

The most successful game in history? Depends on what context....Sims if you look at entire series for only PC...46 million plus copies sold across the series worldwide.

 

Most successful single game? Well, it's usually a toss up between Legend of Zelda, Portal, Super Mario with Tetris being the all time most successful if all platforms are considered (including phones and arcade). Best selling game of all time is Wii sports at 82 million copies sold.

 

Some facts from a study conducted by Newzoo in 2011...at the arguable height of the MMO industry.

- Americans spend 26M hours per day in total playing MMO games

- In 2011, total US MMO games consumer spend will grow 3% compared to 2011 from $2.5bn to $2.6bn

- Free-to-play MMO games take 47% of all money spent on MMO games in the US, up from 39% in 2010

- The total US F2P MMO market has grown from $1.0bn to $1.2bn: +24%

- Free-to-play MMO games gross more revenues than Pay-to-play MMOs in Asian (51%), European (53%) and Emerging markets (59%)

- Free-to-play MMO revenues for 7 key EU countries totals $1.1bn. Emerging Markets Russia, Brazil and Mexico spend $0.4bn. Korea and China combined spend $2.2bn on Free-to-play MMOs

- 84% of American MMO gamers plays browser-based MMOs. Almost half of these consumers also play client-based MMOs

- Asia has the highest share of client-based-only MMO gamers with 24% for China and Korea combined

- 37% of F2P MMO gamers prefer SciFi/Space themed MMO games. This is 35% for P2P MMO gamers

 

..just felt like sprinkling in some actual facts in among all the speculation.

Edited July 25, 2013 by LordArtemis

[hadoken]

Registered users in a free to play game is not even in the same ballpark as copies sold for a console. These facts you're listing above are greatly skewed towards MMOs (considering you haven't listed much else anyway in comparison).

 

For example "Free-to-play MMO revenues for 7 key EU countries totals $1.1bn" compared to ONE console game (Call of Duty: Black Ops which had over $1 billion in sales within the first two months of release).

 

There's no doubt you can be successful in an MMO even these days, it just pales compared to other genres of the gaming industry which is why it's labelled 'niche'

[LordArtemis]

Registered users in a free to play game is not even in the same ballpark as copies sold for a console. These facts you're listing above are greatly skewed towards MMOs (considering you haven't listed much else anyway in comparison).

 

For example "Free-to-play MMO revenues for 7 key EU countries totals $1.1bn" compared to ONE console game (Call of Duty: Black Ops which had over $1 billion in sales within the first two months of release).

 

There's no doubt you can be successful in an MMO even these days, it just pales compared to other genres of the gaming industry which is why it's labelled 'niche'

 

I didn't post that information to invalidate the view that MMOs are a niche market or not....just like I said, I wanted to present facts in a sea of speculation.

 

What people glean from that information is their choice.

[hadoken]

I didn't post that information to invalidate the view that MMOs are a niche market or not....just like I said, I wanted to present facts in a sea of speculation.

 

What people glean from that information is their choice.

 

Calling it a niche market isn't speculation or is it something made up, but I appreciate bringing the facts to prove that since people are skeptical and think just cause they enjoy something it must be really popular

[Grayseven]

It's weird that you ask where the progression is and then desire something more like a sandbox (where there is no programmed progression).

 

Sounds to me you don't really know what it is you want, only that it isn't what this game is.

 

I don't know how you played UO or SWG (the sandbox games most people reference) but I collected a ton of clothes and decorated my house. I acted far more like playing barbie than in these themepark games.

 

Hell even in Skyrim it was about finding cool looking armor to wear, and having a house (and you could even get married and have your partner live there). How is that less barbie than these MMOs?

 

I agree. I spent massive amounts of time and credits decorating my guild hall mall in SWG, as well as getting/crafting gear. More than I ever did in any other MMO.

[Tsillah]

World of Tanks is actually the most successful MMO in history, with over 60 million registered users. They also hold the record for most players playing on one server at the same time, set on 21st of January, 2013, 190,541 players on its RU2 server. The previous world record that they broke also belonged to them...91,311 concurrent players.

 

..just felt like sprinkling in some actual facts in among all the speculation.

 

Facts? I read this on the iternet:

 

Happy Farm is the most popular MMOG with 228 million active users, and 23 million daily users (daily active users logging onto the game with a 24-hour period).

 

In the end what do you measure to decide if a game is successful. You might think the number of users is, but for a company it's more interesting how much profit they can make. That's what most companies would call successful.

 

So perhaps WoW is stil the MMO that brought in the most cash ever? I don't know, but be careful what you call facts.

[LordArtemis]

Calling it a niche market isn't speculation or is it something made up, but I appreciate bringing the facts to prove that since people are skeptical and think just cause they enjoy something it must be really popular

 

Just to be clear....I'm not claiming it is or is not. Yes, I have a personal view on whether or not MMOs are part of a niche market, but with respect to that post only I decided to post actual data instead of just my opinion.

 

In other words with respect to that post I am not taking a position on the matter, nor was that post meant to promote one view or the other.

[LordArtemis]

Facts? I read this on the iternet:

 

Happy Farm is the most popular MMOG with 228 million active users, and 23 million daily users (daily active users logging onto the game with a 24-hour period).

 

In the end what do you measure to decide if a game is successful. You might think the number of users is, but for a company it's more interesting how much profit they can make. That's what most companies would call successful.

 

So perhaps WoW is stil the MMO that brought in the most cash ever? I don't know, but be careful what you call facts.

 

The information I posted is from online studies....Happy Farm is not considered because it was a social network game. If all types of multiplayer games are included in the lists than many MANY more would top the roles....

 

From what I heard Words with Friends holds the social game crown right now at over 70 million total active players, and 370 million players worldwide.

 

Social games are not included in the lists. That is not a judgement against those games...you can certainly add them to your personal list if you wish.

 

Do not make the mistake of thinking that I post information arbitrarily. I take great pains to make sure that if I post information that I claim are facts they are, in fact...facts.

[ImperialSun]

I agree. I spent massive amounts of time and credits decorating my guild hall mall in SWG, as well as getting/crafting gear. More than I ever did in any other MMO.

 

I would love to see a crafting system similar to SWG in this game and if BW were to give us all an instanced house to decorate like SWG I believe this would go a long way towards adding some sandbox type features that a lot of players crave...it would give people something to do other than PvP or level alts. SWG even had regular competitions for the best decorated house...never ceased to amaze me the creativity of some players

 

I think in reality though the engine in SWTOR would not support the surveying/mining system that SWG used to facilitate resource farming etc.

 

However if BW implemented a housing/decorating system as SWG did....or even a creature handler profession ala preCU/CU SWG can you imagine all the cash they would rake in by putting furniture or schems and creature handler associated consumables on the CM?

 

Driz

Edited July 25, 2013 by ImperialSun

[chuuuuucky]

Well if i think of a few browsergames which meet all criterias of a MMO even the persistant universe then MMOs are far away from beeing a niche. Then they are the Number 1 gaming market in the world.

However i think client based MMOs are a niche as even installing a game and fight thru all the configuratins to make it work are some criterias that people dislike.

I met a lot of people who like browser games because they are so easy to handle and you don't have to worry to much about your hardware, drivers and stuff. Something most gamers have no problem with is a big barrier for the people with no computer knowledge at all.

[LordArtemis]

Yes. I think, and this is just me mind you, that they are making a big mistake with putting starship interior decoration on the back burner, so to speak.

 

That is why I suggested an in game poll....I would bet dollars for donuts they would be surprised to find how many of their current players would be interested in an internal decoration mechanic, especially one as powerful as the SWG decoration mechanic.

 

The amount of content that could be added to the game to support it would be astounding IMO, and the profit potential is huge from my perspective.

 

Not to mention allowing players to train animal companions and craft droid companions as companion replacements...adding companion variety without need for back story or extended dialog.

[ImperialSun]

Yes. I think, and this is just me mind you, that they are making a big mistake with putting starship interior decoration on the back burner, so to speak.

 

That is why I suggested an in game poll....I would bet dollars for donuts they would be surprised to find how many of their current players would be interested in an internal decoration mechanic, especially one as powerful as the SWG decoration mechanic.

 

The amount of content that could be added to the game to support it would be astounding IMO, and the profit potential is huge from my perspective.

 

Not to mention allowing players to train animal companions and craft droid companions as companion replacements...adding companion variety without need for back story or extended dialog.

 

Exactly...

 

My main doubt is do they have the resource to implement all of the required assets etc...

 

There were something like a dozen different styles of furniture in SWG, each with about 20 different pieces...plus all of the ornaments / vendor droids / paintings / rugs etc...

 

If BW are prepared to speculate to accumulate, as I said in a recent thread I believe a decorating system or creature handler system could be an absolute gold mine

 

Driz

[LordArtemis]

Exactly...

 

My main doubt is do they have the resource to implement all of the required assets etc...

 

There were something like a dozen different styles of furniture in SWG, each with about 20 different pieces...plus all of the ornaments / vendor droids / paintings / rugs etc...

 

If BW are prepared to speculate to accumulate, as I said in a recent thread I believe a decorating system or creature handler system could be an absolute gold mine

 

Driz

 

Well, keep in mind that the vast majority of models already exist in game. Plus, they had internal tools to place those items in the world.

 

What would need to happen to implement this is that mechanic would have to be reworked into active player code, and you would essentially be given the same tools the mesh artists used to place assets.

 

That is generally how SWG did it.

[ImperialSun]

Well, keep in mind that the vast majority of models already exist in game. Plus, they had internal tools to place those items in the world.

 

What would need to happen to implement this is that mechanic would have to be reworked into active player code, and you would essentially be given the same tools the mesh artists used to place assets.

 

That is generally how SWG did it.

 

That's why you could place things and align them literally one pixel at a time onscreen?

 

You were essentially using the same tools as the devs...understood thanks for elaborating

 

Driz