Gear VS Bolster arguement

[Tezeretz]

OK...the forums are livid with people disappointed in the lack of PVP updates in the "PVP update".

While i agree with them, and the fact that PVP is largely ignored despite the large demand for it. This thread is NOT about either or not PVP needs more attention or not.

 

 

Instead, i want to discuss the most common argument i see in those types of threads.

People state that bolster was intended to balance pvp so that gear wasn't all that mattered etc.

While others argue that it makes things unbalanced.

 

 

My opinion:

Gear should be all that matters in PVP. This is a progression based game. those who invest more time into it, should be rewarded as such. Lemme ask the PVE'ers this. Do you take newly max lvl tanks into raids? or do you require them to know the fights and be geared? Same applies to PVP. someone who has pvp'd more, grinded more....died more...should eventually have better gear. If that player is bad...gear wont save him. he'll still die if he can't play his class. BUT...if he knows what he is doing...he SHOULD have an edge. He earned it.

 

Its no different then the best tanks, or healers having better gear and getting raid priority. ALL MMO'S are progression based. Thats the lasting appeal to them. Work for what you want, get rewarded.

 

Games like COD all have base stats and the playing field is all even across the board etc. And those games get replaced by new versions every 6 months because they get dry and boring fast. This is NOT a game feature that works in MMO's. Even FPS games are realizing players want to be rewarded for there effort. More and more games now have unlocks and upgrades to advance your characters.

 

As it stands...bolster makes PVP kinda pointless. If you just wanna smack around other players for a bit, great. But if you want to get better, or earn anything...then PVP fails at that.

 

I fixed or reworked version of bolster might be ok for pre-55. since pre-55 is a large talent game between characters. lvl 30s have far less then a lvl 54. But at 55, all players have there skills and talents worked out. Gear and class knowledge should be what sets people apart. Bolster should NOT exists in 55 pvp.

[LordArtemis]

I think the exact opposite. Gear should be next to meaningless in PVP. Instead, bolster should only boost vanilla stats and all gear attributes should be zero except for expertise and standard gear armor rating.

 

So PVP would be based on vanilla stats and expertise and valor can provide appropriate progression to expertise...PVP gear would still have value as it would contain expertise progression.

 

The side benefit would be that balance to one side of the game would no longer effect the other side.

[justandulas]

Put in a bolster for PVE. Make PVP gear equivalent to equal lvl PVE gear since the PVP gear takes longer to earn anyway. Watch the QQ erupt on the forums. When PVP gear is devalued, it's alright because pve warriors still have their progression... but if the shoe were on the other foot, the outrage would be endless. Fix Bolster and make PVP gear valuable again BW.

[Bomyne]

Gear should be meaningless in PvP. The deciding factor in a player verse player battle should be skill. Not class. Not gear. Not level. Skill. This isn't PvE we're talking about. This is PvP.

[CommanderKeeva]

As I said so many times in that other thread:

 

In PvE you get to choose the challenge level. You have a certain gear level and you can go into a mode that is appropriate to your gear level (story, hard, nightmare). PvP you cannot choose the challenge level, since you never know how good your opposition is going to be. Sometimes you have the better gear, sometimes they have....but you never know in advance.

 

As a fresh max level player with no starter gear (because there is no Recruit Mk-2 anymore) pretty much everyone has better gear than you. So you'll keep dying until you overcome the gear gap. The stream of inevitable losses at the beginning turn away a lot of people from PvP.

 

Also, the playing field is not level since new PuG players can go against 8man rated teams in unranked matches. Said premade teams regularly farm unranked warzones for easy comms and gear. The combination of no starting gear AND the possibility of being farmed by ranked teams will just piss a lot of people off to the point, where they stop PvP'ing.

[Atramar]

OK...the forums are livid with people disappointed in the lack of PVP updates in the "PVP update".

While i agree with them, and the fact that PVP is largely ignored despite the large demand for it. This thread is NOT about either or not PVP needs more attention or not.

 

 

Instead, i want to discuss the most common argument i see in those types of threads.

People state that bolster was intended to balance pvp so that gear wasn't all that mattered etc.

While others argue that it makes things unbalanced.

 

 

My opinion:

Gear should be all that matters in PVP.

aaaand this is where I stoped reading.

no.

never.

if you would pay more attention to your skill, not gear, you would not have that problem.

 

there are exploits, yes. maybe it should be removed from ranked warzones to discoruge exploiters from lookig for that 0.1% edge.

min maxing- yes. overpowering others simply by outgearing them? hell to the NO.

[LordArtemis]

Put in a bolster for PVE. Make PVP gear equivalent to equal lvl PVE gear since the PVP gear takes longer to earn anyway. Watch the QQ erupt on the forums. When PVP gear is devalued, it's alright because pve warriors still have their progression... but if the shoe were on the other foot, the outrage would be endless. Fix Bolster and make PVP gear valuable again BW.

 

I would actually support a bolster for PVE for play in heroics, story mode for flashpoints. I think that player requirements should stay in place for HM types of play however.

[ninjonxb]

ok. when will people learn. BOLSTER DOES NOT REMOVE THE NECESSITIES OF GEAR

 

The intent of bolster is to bring everyone up to a base playing field (i know this has not exactly worked out, but this was their intention)

 

AFTER the base playing field. You can still gain an advantage with the higher levels of tier gear.

However gaining that gear is no longer die over and over again until you gain the gear so you can constantly kill the people without the gear.

Instead now the gear gives you an advantage but you still need SKILL. It makes PvP less of a grind of following the pattern below:

 

Hit Cap level >> Do PvP >> Die constantly because your gear sucks with no hope of surviving at all >> Gain better gear >> Die a little less often >> Gain best gear >> Kill everyone

 

Notice how not once I mentioned Skill above?

 

With bolster:

 

Hit Cap Level >> Do PvP >> Die some >> Get more Skilled >> Die Less >> Gain Gear >> Die even less

[CommanderKeeva]

Put in a bolster for PVE. Make PVP gear equivalent to equal lvl PVE gear since the PVP gear takes longer to earn anyway.

 

Uhm....no. Just no.

 

1. In PvE you earn 1 or 2 pieces of gear each week (assuming an 8 man group of the same players that distribute gear evenly to make it fair for everyone), then you're locked out until the next week. For a new tier, it is at least 2 months until everyone has stock gear (assuming they always had the same people and always killed every boss) in an 8man team.

 

2. PvE gear takes impossibly long to min/max. There are no commendations for the 75 tier, so you have to rely on random drops. BiS enhancements are almost nonexistent and are highly sought after by every person in the group, meaning that the next tier will be rolled out long before you have the chance to get enough BiS enhancements.

 

3. PvP mods you can buy with comms. PvE mods you cannot. This feature helps min/maxing PvP gear immensely, yet this much requested feature has been ignored so far by the PvE department.

Edited July 18, 2013 by CommanderKeeva

[Tezeretz]

Anyone who says gear shouldn't matter in PVP is clearly new to MMOS.

 

Progression is key.

 

Not all players are equal. nor should they be. This is a modern day entitlement problem young people have. everything has to be "fair". They are brought up getting medals for participation and told they are all winners.

 

That is not how life works. Nor is it how PVP should work. Some people WILL be better geared then you. In which case...you learn to out play them, or die. Dying in this game has no meaning...so its not that big of a deal. Anyone who has played older MMO's that actually had real progression...also had to deal with perma death or having gear and money looted on death. This MMO is already easy mode.

 

 

Arguing that you can not choose your challenge level in PVP is not a valid arguement. Its PLAYER vs PLAYER. Players are unpredictable. thats the apeal. MORE risk, MORE challenge.

 

Maybe its super easy cause you are facing a bunch of weak derps. But maybe you go against a skilled team who knows there class. Eitherway...its part of the risk involved. Even playing fields are for FPS games. Not progression based games. Anyone who says otherwise has entitlement issues and wants skill handed to them.

 

Sorry buttercup, but thats not how life or pvp works. You will die, you will lose, and you will be stronger for it. Things should not be even for everyone. If you work harder, you get better gear. If you have better gear and you still suck...you will STILL die. So its not unfair or over powered. Saying its unfair is just a whiny excuse. In EVERY other MMO that has real progression and PVP. a skilled player will still kill a geared player if he knows how.

 

If that kind of challenge is to scary for someone...go back to PVE. Where programmed mobs can be learned and predicted for easy replay value. PVP is supposed to be unpredictable and hard....

[LordArtemis]

Anyone who says gear shouldn't matter in PVP is clearly new to MMOS..

 

It has been my experience that the vast majority of PVP players in ALL GAMES on the market at this time state that gear should not matter. The very notion that that means they are new to MMOs is ludicrous.

 

It is just an opposing opinion, not a measure of experience. No one side is correct, just distinct, the pro gear and pro skill folks.

 

Some folks like PVP based on skill, others on gear. At one time gear folks outnumbered skill folks, and visa versa. In this game and the market we are in a "skill" phase.

 

There is no need to try and deride those that oppose your view as "new mmo players" simply because they belong to a rival camp.

Edited July 18, 2013 by LordArtemis

[CommanderKeeva]

Anyone who says gear shouldn't matter in PVP is clearly new to MMOS.

 

Progression is key.

 

Not all players are equal. nor should they be. This is a modern day entitlement problem young people have. everything has to be "fair". They are brought up getting medals for participation and told they are all winners.

 

That is not how life works. Nor is it how PVP should work. Some people WILL be better geared then you. In which case...you learn to out play them, or die. Dying in this game has no meaning...so its not that big of a deal. Anyone who has played older MMO's that actually had real progression...also had to deal with perma death or having gear and money looted on death. This MMO is already easy mode.

 

 

Arguing that you can not choose your challenge level in PVP is not a valid arguement. Its PLAYER vs PLAYER. Players are unpredictable. thats the apeal. MORE risk, MORE challenge.

 

Maybe its super easy cause you are facing a bunch of weak derps. But maybe you go against a skilled team who knows there class. Eitherway...its part of the risk involved. Even playing fields are for FPS games. Not progression based games. Anyone who says otherwise has entitlement issues and wants skill handed to them.

 

Sorry buttercup, but thats not how life or pvp works. You will die, you will lose, and you will be stronger for it. Things should not be even for everyone. If you work harder, you get better gear. If you have better gear and you still suck...you will STILL die. So its not unfair or over powered. Saying its unfair is just a whiny excuse. In EVERY other MMO that has real progression and PVP. a skilled player will still kill a geared player if he knows how.

 

If that kind of challenge is to scary for someone...go back to PVE. Where programmed mobs can be learned and predicted for easy replay value. PVP is supposed to be unpredictable and hard....

 

I'm curious as to how you imagine people with 2k damage and 12k hp and 0 expertise to learn to play their class effectively when they're going against people with 10k damage and 35k hp and 2000~ expertise.

 

You cannot learn to play effectively if you're killed in 2-3 general cooldowns. And I have seen people ripped apart in 2-3-4 GCDs by people who were wearing vastly superior gear.

 

It's like handing a wooden stick to some poor fellow and saying to him...."Hey, use that wooden stick to destroy that Abrams tank!" He can take its cannon if he is successful.

Edited July 18, 2013 by CommanderKeeva

[Ashenti]

Anyone who says gear shouldn't matter in PVP is clearly new to MMOS.

 

Progression is key.

 

Not all players are equal. nor should they be. This is a modern day entitlement problem young people have. everything has to be "fair". They are brought up getting medals for participation and told they are all winners.

 

That is not how life works. Nor is it how PVP should work. Some people WILL be better geared then you. In which case...you learn to out play them, or die. Dying in this game has no meaning...so its not that big of a deal. Anyone who has played older MMO's that actually had real progression...also had to deal with perma death or having gear and money looted on death. This MMO is already easy mode.

 

 

Arguing that you can not choose your challenge level in PVP is not a valid arguement. Its PLAYER vs PLAYER. Players are unpredictable. thats the apeal. MORE risk, MORE challenge.

 

Maybe its super easy cause you are facing a bunch of weak derps. But maybe you go against a skilled team who knows there class. Eitherway...its part of the risk involved. Even playing fields are for FPS games. Not progression based games. Anyone who says otherwise has entitlement issues and wants skill handed to them.

 

Sorry buttercup, but thats not how life or pvp works. You will die, you will lose, and you will be stronger for it. Things should not be even for everyone. If you work harder, you get better gear. If you have better gear and you still suck...you will STILL die. So its not unfair or over powered. Saying its unfair is just a whiny excuse. In EVERY other MMO that has real progression and PVP. a skilled player will still kill a geared player if he knows how.

 

If that kind of challenge is to scary for someone...go back to PVE. Where programmed mobs can be learned and predicted for easy replay value. PVP is supposed to be unpredictable and hard....

 

I really don't understand your argument here. Surely you are completely contradicting your statement that gear should be all that matters?

if gear is all that matters, then skill doesn't. if gear is all that matters then those with the best gear should win everytime. No chance, no randomness, no other factors, just a simple equation Highest gear level=win.

Surely its those who think that 'putting in the time' and having the best gear should mean an automatic win are those displaying entitlement issues?

 

yes, saying 'it's not fair' is a whiny excuse. It's whiny when someone complains they cannot win because they need the gear, it's just as whiny when someone complains that their top-end gear doesn't give them the advantage they think it should.

My own views on bolster don't really matter (for the record, I think its a fairly decent idea, implemented in a terrible manner). I don't think anyone is calling for bolster to make a completely 'even playing field'. But it should be there to slightly bridge the gap between those with great gear and those still earning it.

In a completely gear based situation, a character equipped in to-end gear will slaughter someone just starting out, someone with no gear. Skill level will not come into it one bit.

ideally, bolster should up the gear level of the new player just enough for them to at least stand a small chance of competing. A geared player should still have am advantage over an ungeared one (that advantage growing with the gap in gear level) but, the skill of players should play a part. A well skilled, low geared player should not get face rolled by a well-geared, unskilled player.

[Dismayven]

the main reason i dont farm the ugly garbage pvp gear is for the following reasons.

 

1) its ugly (i know i can take the mods out and put in other gear) still ugly as hell.

 

2) i farmed full battlemaster gear for several max lvl chars, then boom removed from game and made completely worthless.

 

3) i farmed several sets of full elite war hero gear, then boom removed from game and made completely worthless.

 

4) if i farmed several sets of full conq gear guess what will happen with the supposed pvp patch!??!?! boom removed from game and made completely worthless.

 

5) what do you think will happen with conq and partisan gear with the new pvp update?! boom removed from game and made completely worthless. then u gotta start all over again.

 

6) refer to #4 and #5!!!

 

7) why would i wear conq gear in a WZ when bolster raises my expertise high enough? ok so u might say "ur expertise isnt capped." ok well thats fine my damage reduction from other players is lower than yours and my dmg boost to other players is lower than yours, but guess what kids? if i am in full 69's/72's/75's that small % higher that your dmg dealt and damage reduction are than mine. my armor, dmg stats and health are a bigger % than the small % higher u are from ur capped expertise. so guess what kids?!?! my stats are still higher and i am still stronger rofl.

 

8) pvp gear is only worth grinding for if you intend to spend a lot of time driving around in open world lookin for people to kill, and lets face it open world pvp in this game.....ROFLMFAO

 

so keep throwing a fit cuz u keep wasting ur time grinding gear just to have it removed from the game and pve people are stronger in a WZ than you.....or go grind some 72's put them in ur gear, play WZs and laugh at people who waste time farming pvp gear like the majority of people do lol...

[Agidius]

my vote goes to no PvP gear

 

as in many genres of PvP, the one and deciding factor should be always and only player skill and player skill only. period.

 

no one cares, how much time you lost a warzone and still and farmed a gear, no one cares.

 

PvP is player versus player, not gear versus gear

 

In my opinion, the PvP gear should be removed completely in SWTOR, only a working bolster system, and the only thing that should be implemented, is cosmetic stuff for the veteran PvP`ers. (Like different looking gear, earned at different stages.)

 

 

tl;dr

I really really hope that they remove this nonsense PvP gear completely, and only a fixed version of bolster will allocate the stat points, with cosmetic incentives for the regular PvP crowd, to distinguish themselves.

[Bomyne]

Anyone who says gear shouldn't matter in PVP is clearly new to MMOS.

 

Progression is key.

 

Not all players are equal. nor should they be. This is a modern day entitlement problem young people have. everything has to be "fair". They are brought up getting medals for participation and told they are all winners.

 

 

You're right. It is an entitlement issue. certain pvpers believe they are entitled to kill their foes with one button press because they have 'earned' their gear. Their badge of prestige that makes them more worthy of having fun than that poor newcomer. They are entitled to win after win because they have more gear than that poor new comer. And they feel good about these hardearned wins.

 

They haven't earned those wins. They were handed them on a silver platter by their gear or their level. or both.

 

Yes, PvP should be fair. It should be fun to all. If i beat you in a one on one duel, let it be because i'm either better than you/more skilled or had a run of pure luck. Don't let it be because my gear way overpowered yours.

[Skaol-dirtyd]

I think gear should matter.

 

It's all about the gear in my mind. Just the nature of the way the game is set up. Skill is a secondary factor.

 

Without the gear what rewards are left for PVP'ers ?

 

To me it's the same as people wanting to go into a NiM Ops with all greens on and fresh at 55. They may have better skill but that sure as sh** aint gonna carry them through the encounter.

 

So seriously without the gear what is the point ? What are the rewards for PVP'ing b/c as it looks to me know it is only gear..... all you would have left is bragging rights and that aint gonna keep people around for very long.

 

So if you get rid of PVP gear you might as well get rid of PVE gear to and let the entire game be based on the merits of skill. I should not have to grind out weeks of lower tier ops and fp's for the gear so I will be competitive in raids, because my skill should merit my competitiveness. Right?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Skaol-dirtyd

[hadoken]

Gear progression gives people a reason to PvP beyond enjoying the PvP itself.

 

I honestly can't decide if that's a good thing or not. Ideally it should all be 'skill' or whatever, but even that is going to be completely modified by classes involved, number of people involved, health/cooldowns when going into the fight, etc. In the end there is no such thing as a 'balanced' fight or scenario. So gear being another part of that is just that, another part of it and not the entire thing.

 

While I think some people would PvP regardless if they got upgrades or not, I think they'd have less people to play WITH if everything was equal/removed so there was no point to PvP other than enjoying the activity itself.

[Bomyne]

So seriously without the gear what is the point ? What are the rewards for PVP'ing b/c as it looks to me know it is only gear..... all you would have left is bragging rights and that aint gonna keep people around for very long.

 

And that's the problem with modern players.

 

Anyone remember the very old school FPS games? Doom? Quake? Jedi Academy? The games that you played because they were fun, not because they were going to reward you with pathetic little trinkets. These days, even the FPS games are 'rewarding' their players. And those that have been playing a while keep getting better and those that have been playing only a minute can't compete. They die instantly.

 

Same with TOR and WoW and any other MMO that uses this formula.

[LordArtemis]

Just my opinion mind you, but in PVP skill progression is key. In PVE gear progression, at least for end game is key. They are two very different types of gameplay, and the attempt to merge them into one group of progression is part of what is wrong with the state of PVP.

 

I am firmly in the "skill" based PVP crowd. However, I do recognize that there is a "gear" based crowd and do not deride their views. I simply do not agree.

[Skaol-dirtyd]

And that's the problem with modern players.

 

Anyone remember the very old school FPS games? Doom? Quake? Jedi Academy? The games that you played because they were fun, not because they were going to reward you with pathetic little trinkets. These days, even the FPS games are 'rewarding' their players. And those that have been playing a while keep getting better and those that have been playing only a minute can't compete. They die instantly.

 

Same with TOR and WoW and any other MMO that uses this formula.

 

As someone about to ding the big 40 I can assure you I am far from a modern player. What I am is someone who calls it like I see it.

 

Regardless of if the players dictated the make up of the reward systems in game or not, it is what is. The rewards are a part of the game and something a lot of gamer's want now. Just part of the evolution of the industry.

 

Good or bad not for me to decide!

[KimbeFett]

Anyone who says gear shouldn't matter in PVP is clearly new to MMOS

 

Actually most modern PVP Centric MMOs don't use gear as a discriminator. The disconnect here is that there are 2 types of PvP enthusiast.

 

The PvP Pro; More skilled; can play any class, will beat you; favors an even playing field because guess what, he still wins.

 

The MMO Pro: Likes to grind, likes to win; isn't as skilled as PvP Pro but he can sure waste a lot of hours dieing so that he can feel like he achieved something and then WATCH OUT because hes got the gear to farm you!

 

Real PVP Games:

Guild Wars 2 (Itemization matters here but you have access to all the gear; you gotta build the right set but you dont need to farm gear)

Bloodline Champions (Just a pure arena bloodbath)

League of Legends (not 100% sure on this one; haven't played it myself but I have heard)

Real PVPers don't need gear as a crutch to OWN nubs!

 

I like bolster because frankly I don't have the time to farm gear; being skilled is what should determine victory not the fact that you had hours to spend farming gear.

 

A Fresh 55 who is more skilled than someone in the best possible PVP gear should Win every time; why give an advantage to the gear farmer? Because hes got more time on his hands? Is this PvP or PlayersGear vs PlayersGear?

Edited July 18, 2013 by KimbeFett

[LordArtemis]

You can still have gear progression in the way that it provides Expertise.

 

In fact, if I was in charge of PVP, this is what I would do.

 

1) Remove the effect of all stats on armor, weapons, relics, implants, etc EXCEPT for armor ratings and expertise in PVP of any type. PVP would be based on Expertise and vanilla stats only.

 

2) Make all PVP gear orange adaptable gear and give it an Expertise stat. If you PVP only you could leave the slots empty and use the gear just for the armor rating and the Expertise if you wanted.

 

3) Set up bolster to effect vanilla stats only. World PVP would not have a bolster.

 

Then I would add....

 

1) World PVP ranking boards, your rank based on server and valor level.

2) Warzone ranking boards, same as above.

3) Set up that a loss in valor means a loss in rank.

4) Valor would buff Expertise.

5) You would be able to use valor to purchase valor tokens, which could be used for gear. Also valor level would determine access to gear.

You would then still have gear progression to an extent, have the ability to use PVP gear in PVE if you wish, and also have a real meaning to valor AND loss. If you lose, if you die, you lose valor. If you kill other players that are far below you in level you lose valor UNLESS they are bolstered, doing so repeatedly in a short amount of time causes a progressive loss of valor.

 

No more would simple participation in Warzones provide rewards....you would have to survive and win to hope to lead the boards and get the best boosts.

 

Skill based PVP. This would be the core.

Edited July 18, 2013 by LordArtemis

[KimbeFett]

You can still have gear progression.

Why bother?

 

Why not just have the world wide ranking list and end it at that? Why do you need gear progression why not just have like a ladder system where teams fight for the top spot.

 

An individual ladder for healing, and dpsing.

 

The progression should be based on being awesome not wasting time.

[LordArtemis]

Why bother?

 

Why not just have the world wide ranking list and end it at that? Why do you need gear progression why not just have like a ladder system where teams fight for the top spot.

 

An individual ladder for healing, and dpsing.

 

The progression should be based on being awesome not wasting time.

 

Well, you bother to make the folks that like gear progression happy. What is important is that gear would provide a small Expertise boost that is stable, unmoving based on wins or losses. The bonus, however, would not be huge.