Pay to Win

[branmakmuffin]

This is a MMO with subs. The Subber has the NORMAL stuff a player need.

F2P has all the stuff a player needs to play the game from 1 to 50.

[LordArtemis]

I may not understand this right, but I am still confused as to why a game offering a sub is a bad thing...or translates into P2W.

 

Or even why, if that is the definition of P2W that P2W would be considered a bad thing. Seems to me it is the formula that players have accepted for a LONG time.

 

I think people are a bit "free and loose" with the P2W term, as if they can paint anything they do not like as P2W so as to turn folks against it.

 

The problem with that idea is that folks are not as uninformed as they used to be. So folks can make up their own minds.

[OldRepJedi]

The Cartel Market isn't - the restrictions are.

 

The F2P model is to get you interested enough to want to sub. Or you can drop even more money with the CM when buying a sub is much cheaper.

[AlexDougherty]

I may not understand this right, but I am still confused as to why a game offering a sub is a bad thing...or translates into P2W.

 

It isn't, a sub is a good thing it makes the game easier and more fun, but it has never been pay to win.

Or even why, if that is the definition of P2W that P2W would be considered a bad thing. Seems to me it is the formula that players have accepted for a LONG time.

 

It's viewed as being lazy and not learning to play the game, which does not apply to having a sub.

I think people are a bit "free and loose" with the P2W term, as if they can paint anything they do not like as P2W so as to turn folks against it.

 

Yes.

The problem with that idea is that folks are not as uninformed as they used to be. So folks can make up their own minds.

 

I can't agree, people don't listen, the arguements for this being pay to win have been shot down consistantly, the actual definition has been trotted out several times, and still people are saying it's pay to win. The information might be out there, but people aren't looking, or they're looking for facts that agree with their preconceptions, which in this case are unjustified.

Edited July 30, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Andryah]

people don't listen, the arguements for this being pay to win have been shot down consistantly, the actual definition has been trotted out several times, and still people are saying it's pay to win. The information might be out there, but people aren't looking, or they're looking for facts that agree with their preconceptions, which in this case are unjustified.

 

Signature worthy IMO.

[chuixupu]

You sure do post much on this thread.

 

350 comments 12k views - keep it coming.

 

Well, at least we all know the OP is trolling for sure, if we ever had any doubt.

[ikinai]

You all can pay to win all you like, I pay to be awesome! No, I pay to be contagious, which is much better than that tired old word awesome. Yeah, I am contagious!

[curtkram]

I can't agree, people don't listen, the arguements for this being pay to win have been shot down consistantly, the actual definition has been trotted out several times, and still people are saying it's pay to win. The information might be out there, but people aren't looking, or they're looking for facts that agree with their preconceptions, which in this case are unjustified.

 

what is your source for the definition of pay 2 win? is it andryah? if so, you're an i. d. 10. T. is it EA? they're biased. is it based on your opinion, based on a scale of your personal taste as to the point where a game should stop charging extra and provide a service or content within the subscription cost? is it based on a clear line MMORPG.com drew? maybe kotaku, g4, or penny arcade gave us a final unarguable definition? or, just as a possibility since i'm throwing out ideas, you could be as wrong as you assume everyone else is.

 

there is no pay 2 win. p2w is only for pvp games, and since this game is focused on pve, it's not possible for this game to be p2w.

or, it's not possible for this game to be p2w because that is a term generally seen as a negative in the press, and you love EA soooo much you would never assume they did something negative. no matter how hard EA fails, some of us will never admit they could do something wrong.

or, anything more than an emote or empty armor shell is p2w. an ewok does stuff, so it's more than an empty armor shell, therefore p2w. if the ewok has armor with stats, it's not an empty armor shell. p2w. case closed.

[OldRepJedi]

what is your source for the definition of pay 2 win? is it andryah? if so, you're an i. d. 10. T. is it EA? they're biased. is it based on your opinion, based on a scale of your personal taste as to the point where a game should stop charging extra and provide a service or content within the subscription cost? is it based on a clear line MMORPG.com drew? maybe kotaku, g4, or penny arcade gave us a final unarguable definition? or, just as a possibility since i'm throwing out ideas, you could be as wrong as you assume everyone else is.

 

there is no pay 2 win. p2w is only for pvp games, and since this game is focused on pve, it's not possible for this game to be p2w.

or, it's not possible for this game to be p2w because that is a term generally seen as a negative in the press, and you love EA soooo much you would never assume they did something negative. no matter how hard EA fails, some of us will never admit they could do something wrong.

or, anything more than an emote or empty armor shell is p2w. an ewok does stuff, so it's more than an empty armor shell, therefore p2w. if the ewok has armor with stats, it's not an empty armor shell. p2w. case closed.

 

Pardon my ignorance since I've been a sub since launch, but what exactly are people supposedly winning? Hmmmmm....I haven't won anything yet and I have paid CC's to unlock HK on all of my toons after the one time I did the quest line. Is this pay to win then?

Edited July 30, 2013 by OldRepJedi

[DarthTHC]

Pardon my ignorance since I've been a sub since launch, but what exactly are people supposedly winning?

 

The ability to play the game without the odious f2p / preferred restrictions, apparently.

[Chickensevil]

The ability to play the game without the odious f2p / preferred restrictions, apparently.

 

Bwahahaha this has to be one of the best troll threads I have seen in a while. I mean people can't be serious about this...

 

Paying for a sub is P2W... oh this is just too rich. ahaha...

 

Who knew, every single game since the dawn of time has been pay to win on some scale then. Cause I had to pay 60$ for that COD game, obviously now that I gave them monies I win!

[curtkram]

Bwahahaha this has to be one of the best troll threads I have seen in a while. I mean people can't be serious about this...

 

Paying for a sub is P2W... oh this is just too rich. ahaha...

 

Who knew, every single game since the dawn of time has been pay to win on some scale then. Cause I had to pay 60$ for that COD game, obviously now that I gave them monies I win!

 

you mean like playing chess in the park, where someone brought/lent the chess board.

or cards, where someone shares the deck.

or charades

soccer. only one person needs the ball, which could be a hand-me-down. free for everyone else.

or almost every game ever since the dawn of time that didn't require a monetary investment to play.

 

your idea of time and games is very messed up.

[OldRepJedi]

But someone had to pay for the chess set or ball. If they are sharing, that is their choice. F2P isn't meant to give you full feature. Businesses don't make money that way. And above all else, EA/Bioware are a business. And no, I am not a fanboy. They have screwed up too many games for me to be. Do I agree with them putting the Ewok on the CM? No. But come on, to call this a p2w game because there are subscribers is ludicrous. And if you want to put it that way, look at sports. All teams pay some sort of money in order to be able to win. So I know it only a troll post but get over yourself.

[AlexDougherty]

what is your source for the definition of pay 2 win? is it andryah? if so, you're an i. d. 10. T. is it EA? they're biased. is it based on your opinion, based on a scale of your personal taste as to the point where a game should stop charging extra and provide a service or content within the subscription cost? is it based on a clear line MMORPG.com drew? maybe kotaku, g4, or penny arcade gave us a final unarguable definition? or, just as a possibility since i'm throwing out ideas, you could be as wrong as you assume everyone else is.

 

there is no pay 2 win. p2w is only for pvp games, and since this game is focused on pve, it's not possible for this game to be p2w.

or, it's not possible for this game to be p2w because that is a term generally seen as a negative in the press, and you love EA soooo much you would never assume they did something negative. no matter how hard EA fails, some of us will never admit they could do something wrong.

or, anything more than an emote or empty armor shell is p2w. an ewok does stuff, so it's more than an empty armor shell, therefore p2w. if the ewok has armor with stats, it's not an empty armor shell. p2w. case closed.

 

To me, Pay to win is where paying cash gives you such an advantage that people who don't pay can't keep up, which isn't the case for this game. Several people have mentioned friends who have gotten to level 50 without spending any cash, one has mentioned friends who's only purchase was the expansion ROTHC. Several have said that you can buy the unlocks on GTN, admittedly it's rare for the unlocks to be cheap enough for F2Pers, but they do ocassionaly happen.

[OldRepJedi]

To me, Pay to win is where paying cash gives you such an advantage that people who don't pay can't keep up, which isn't the case for this game. Several people have mentioned friends who have gotten to level 50 without spending any cash, one has mentioned friends who's only purchase was the expansion ROTHC. Several have said that you can buy the unlocks on GTN, admittedly it's rare for the unlocks to be cheap enough for F2Pers, but they do ocassionaly happen.

 

While I do agree in spirit with that definition, I have to ask, who are they keeping up with? You are in competition with no-one but yourself. There is not time limit to leveling. Your are not fighting against anyone. It is only you that you are competing against. Pay 2 win in an MMO only applies to PvP. If you can directly purchase PvP upgrades from the CM, then I see it as p2w.

[curtkram]

p2w is whatever you want it to be. if you want to believe swtor is not p2w, then that's fine and valid. if you want to tell me what to believe, back it up with something substantial. just assume i don't care about your opinion any more than you care about my opinion.

 

i am not trolling. trolling is telling other people what they have to believe without being able to substantiate it. for what it's worth, i really don't care if it's p2w or not. i just think their decision to push everything through the cartel market makes the game far less enjoyable. and i think people claiming they speak for all mmo players is self-righteous bull-**** that should stop.

[chuixupu]

p2w is whatever you want it to be. if you want to believe swtor is not p2w, then that's fine and valid.

 

If there is no solid definition of pay to win, then it really doesn't exist and this whole argument is pointless.

 

Pay to win *traditionally* means you pay money directly to get the best gear in the game. I.E. if you had to buy Kell Dragon or Warhero gear from the cartel market, that would be Pay to Win. That's classic Pay to Win, you can't say that's NOT pay to win; you might have some other opinions about what could possibly be considered P2W, but they're not very easily defined and easily debatable.

 

if you want to tell me what to believe, back it up with something substantial. just assume i don't care about your opinion any more than you care about my opinion.

 

We all care about each others opinions to a degree, otherwise we would not all be posting them in a public forum and responding to them.

 

i am not trolling. trolling is telling other people what they have to believe without being able to substantiate it.

 

Trolling is whatever you want it to be.

Edited July 30, 2013 by chuixupu

[Amaranth]

Pay to win *traditionally* means you pay money directly to get the best gear in the game. I.E. if you had to buy Kell Dragon or Warhero gear from the cartel market, that would be Pay to Win. That's classic Pay to Win, you can't say that's NOT pay to win; you might have some other opinions about what could possibly be considered P2W, but they're not very easily defined and easily debatable.

 

Based on playing MMOs for the last 13 years, this is what I understand the commonly accepted definition of P2W means. Of course it is a matter of opinion to some extent; I mean I could question whether you can even have P2W for PVE, since you can't really win PVE. But for the purposes of argument it's generally best to go with the common definition , unless you can definitively prove that the common definition is wrong.

 

Honestly I think this whole discussion of P2W clouds what could actually be a good discussion to have - whether or not the restrictions on F2P players are too strong or not. That is a topic that I think is worthy of discussion. But because some people insist on framing the discussion as a P2W issue, there isn't going to be as reasonable of a discussion, since that is a much harder position to defend.

[OldRepJedi]

i just think their decision to push everything through the cartel market makes the game far less enjoyable

 

^this. I totally agree with this.

[Grayseven]

Common usage of terminology defines the terminology. In MMO's Pay to Win means one thing; paying real cash above and beyond fees to play the game in order to gain an advantage over those who do not pay the "above and beyond" fee to purchase the same thing.

 

Before Free to Play came into vogue, Pay to Win most often involved purchases of gear sets that were stronger than those obtained by the highest level of end game content currently available...whether it be PvE or PvP gear.

 

With Free to Play, the definition can get a little murkier. Since people who pay a monthly subscription have access to benefits that those who do not subscribe have to take extra steps to obtain, it could be argued that subscriptions are Pay to Win. The problem with calling it that is the simple fact that those same benefits are available through purchase on the GTN, regardless if they are initially purchased with real cash (or freebie coins) by others.

 

Now, the big reason why the CM is not really Pay to Win comes from the simple fact that by playing the game "for free" you are agreeing to the restrictions placed upon you as a "free" player. Whether those restrictions are draconian are moot. The available option if you do not like the restrictions is to pay the monthly subscription fee which completely removes the gates.

 

Free players are not the baseline for this game, they are a modification of the subscription model which is the true baseline of MMO's.

[chuixupu]

Honestly I think this whole discussion of P2W clouds what could actually be a good discussion to have - whether or not the restrictions on F2P players are too strong or not. That is a topic that I think is worthy of discussion. But because some people insist on framing the discussion as a P2W issue, there isn't going to be as reasonable of a discussion, since that is a much harder position to defend.

 

I agree. That's why it just irks me when people get on the pay to win thing. it's just a phrase that gets people worked up and does little to address the actual concerns most people have with the game that are currently a reality. I actually agree that some of the restrictions are not well designed. I don't like the fact that the only way I can change the color of my characters' hair is by using CC's. But that has nothing to do with Pay to Win, it's just nickle and diming to have a little fun.

[AlexDougherty]

Signature worthy IMO.

 

I kind of like my current signature, it's borrowed from another person and descibes a grey sith philosophy, which I like, but feel free to borrow that quote for your own signature.

[AlexDougherty]

While I do agree in spirit with that definition, I have to ask, who are they keeping up with? You are in competition with no-one but yourself. There is not time limit to leveling. Your are not fighting against anyone. It is only you that you are competing against. Pay 2 win in an MMO only applies to PvP. If you can directly purchase PvP upgrades from the CM, then I see it as p2w.

 

I agree, but some feel that the need to get artifact authorisation for level 50+ makes it pay to win, despite several people saying that f2pers have bought it off GTN, but on the whole the cartel market is just fluff, which is nice.

[AlexDougherty]

I agree. That's why it just irks me when people get on the pay to win thing. it's just a phrase that gets people worked up and does little to address the actual concerns most people have with the game that are currently a reality. I actually agree that some of the restrictions are not well designed. I don't like the fact that the only way I can change the color of my characters' hair is by using CC's. But that has nothing to do with Pay to Win, it's just nickle and diming to have a little fun.

 

Yes, there are several restrictions that could be lifted with no impact for subscribers, the cooldown in chat for example, or the ability to mail to alts (restrict it to same faction if there has to be a restriction).

 

I get that there has to be differences to justify charging for a subscription, but several of them are petty and mean. Personally I sub for the rested exp, crew skills (need three), ability to equip anything, unrestricted acess to warzones and ops, ability to mail to anybody, and ability to post here.

 

Admittedly this is alot, but there are several that could be revisited, perhaps increase how many times f2pers can do warzones and ops, unrestrict chat, let them learn sprint earlier (so they don't slow down flashpoints, heroics, etc), increase the heroic limit, etc.

[Grayseven]

Yes, there are several restrictions that could be lifted with no impact for subscribers, the cooldown in chat for example, or the ability to mail to alts (restrict it to same faction if there has to be a restriction).

 

I get that there has to be differences to justify charging for a subscription, but several of them are petty and mean. Personally I sub for the rested exp, crew skills (need three), ability to equip anything, unrestricted acess to warzones and ops, ability to mail to anybody, and ability to post here.

 

Admittedly this is alot, but there are several that could be revisited, perhaps increase how many times f2pers can do warzones and ops, unrestrict chat, let them learn sprint earlier (so they don't slow down flashpoints, heroics, etc), increase the heroic limit, etc.

 

The cool down on chat and restrictions on the ability to mail to alts is more about circumventing gold farmer practices. If they were lifted there would be an impact on all players since gold farmer practices affect us all.

 

They may seem petty, but for subscriptions to be encouraged there has to be limits on free players and this game does a good job of allowing players access to the game free of charge while making subscriptions attractive.

 

Ultimately, players will have to make a decision. Are they able to fully enjoy the game free or at a reduced rate through Cartel Market purchases, or would a subscription offer more? This game is still a business product and as such is designed to provide income for the product owner. Since the game launched under the subscription-only model, the free-to-play model was designed into the game after the fact which probably makes the restrictions seem more brutal to people who went from sub to f2p versus others who didn't "lose anything" since they came in straight to the f2p model.