So What *Are* We Going To Ask? July

[MKnightRider]

I'm very glad to see talk about Shadow DPS, was a little scared that the tank spikiness problem was going to overshadow DPS. And I'm not saying that that isn't a big concern either, but I'm a little biased and still sad from the 2.0 changes to Balance, plus there's much fewer Shadows DPSing top PvE content and ranked PvP than there are tanks at this time.

 

So here's my input, wall of text style:

 

I definitely love seeing Balance discussed, both the fact that the old play style has been ruined/lack of DPS and the lack of burst and other problems that make it horrible for PvP. The major thing I'd like to see for Balance is Shadow Strike brought back. I still don't understand why the class' signature move was taken from a DPS spec. And with a Shadow Strike proc brought back into the mix, it could potentially solve force, burst DPS, and sustained DPS problems, not to mention fun problems. The one thing I disagree on though is the difficulty of Balance. The spec was dumbed down immensely in 2.0 in my opinion. To me, it has become mind-numbing compared to pre-2.0. I think the problem was that the spec was complex enough (I still don't think it was as bad as it was made out to be) pre-2.0 that no one wanted to bother with it and basically wrote off the class as DPS back then and have never thought to try it since, despite the changes with 2.0. It really is essentially Sage Balance with two different moves and more moving around. I see quite a few Sages playing Balance and have never heard any complaints that it is a complex/difficult spec. Honestly I feel like the changes made it less enticing to the people who played it before and not enticing enough to bring new players to the Shadow.

 

I have only seen one post in this thread so far about Infiltration, and I think that's good. I don't think it needs much work right now, at least nothing pressing that requires taking up one of our questions. I don't PvP a ton, but I have a lot of fun with Infiltration when I do. And I used it in 2/5 of the NiM Terror From Beyond fights (Operator IX mainly because FiB STILL doesn't reliably hit the cores, or I just suck and still don't know the sweet spot; and the Terror for the burst/low setup time) and I will most likely be using it for NiM Styrak fight since I use it for HM Styrak. So even for PvE I think it's good where it's at, still could do better DPS compared to other classes, but that isn't a problem of just Infiltration.

 

Talk about Phase Walk is good too. It is a great addition for PvP, but very lacking for PvE and have wanted some true use for it as a DPS in PvE. I will admit that I have used it a couple times in PvE as DPS, came in handy for NiM Dread Guards and NiM Thrasher, but those are only 2 of the 12 top level fights. Definitely something needs to be done to make it more useful.

 

Okay, almost done.

 

The last thing I would like to say is I feel like Shadow DPS can never really be great in Bioware's eyes. Stealth is the root of the problem. We can't have stealth and be one of the top DPS in PvP, understandably. So our damage gets held back in PvE despite the relatively low usefulness of stealth in PvE. We should be glass cannons in my opinion, and we are with respect to our survivability, but in PvE most definitely not when it comes to DPS. I hope that there is a way to make us a truly wanted DPS asset in both PvE and PvP, but I don't think Bioware seems to care that much.

 

So in my opinion the lack of DPS just overall should be our target for the PvE question, the Balance spec issue our PvP question, and then the Phase Walk usefulness our wild card question.

Edited July 14, 2013 by MKnightRider

[stephenalandavie]

Just a note, I didnt think I saw anyone else respond to this yet. If you use Phase Walk will carrying the HB it resets the ball. While handy to reset in those times when its the best option it doesnt really help to score in this regard. Unless something has changed in the past couple weeks since the last time I accidentally used it with the ball.

 

You are right it does reset the ball, I have seen phase walk used to catch the ball but not to travel with it.

[thejollygreenone]

So in my opinion the lack of DPS just overall should be our target for the PvE question, the Balance spec issue our PvP question, and then the Phase Walk usefulness our wild card question.

Couldn't agree more with just about everything you mentioned. Tanks are surely not working to where they should be, prime example the new nightmare content one shotting them sometimes. But shadow dps have been the bottom of the food chain since 2.0 and are well in need of some love to make us more viable. I would actually feel bad if my guild took me to their nightmare progression because its impossible for me to provide the 3000 dps that they could be bringing. People have said it before, and dare i say i it now, there is close to no reason to bring a shadow dps to a higher difficulty operation rather than a sentinel. This is iconic of the shadow dps' plight and where we need to address the problem, imho.

[Lithy]

Force Shroud / Resilience

Instant

Cooldown: 60s

Removes all hostile removable effects and increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds. Does not break Stealth.

 

According to the tooltip, it is guaranteeing the players that we have an absolute certainty, that when we pop this ability, we will CLEAR our hostile effects and resist them. When this is not the case, then there is something very, very, very wrong. It's going directly against its design mechanic. It is supposed to be a 100% chance to resist force and tech attacks. If this is not the case, then change the tooltip to what it truly is. Having attacks, mezzes or stuns bypass something based on its design was meant to counter said things, is nothing short of outrageous blind luck and furthermore, infuriating and absolutely gamebreaking. (IE: Node caps, Boss spikes) This either:

 

A) Needs to be fixed (to 100% ACTUAL resist)

B) Tooltip change to the true value

 

While I agree with every other question being asked in this thread and post I want to say that resilience's tooltip is very clear, it increases your resistance BY 100%. I have 2% resistance. I use resilience I now have 102% resistance to force and tech attacks. Now with the way accuracy works if you have over 100% accuracy in subtracts that from the enemies defense. It's very simple. If your opponent has 110% accuracy they against that opponent I have 0 base resistances and with resilience on I'll be at a 92% resist chance. It's been like this for a very long time, it's why with skills like target acquired I can kill a shadow with an explosive probe through resilience some of the time.

Should it be changed to how you want it? In tank spec, yes. It should be a talent point. Not for DPS though.

 

 

My questions are similar to many others in terms of competitiveness.

Will the DPS trees be brought more in line with other classes?

 

As mentioned before Infiltration is completely single target, and that's fine. But because of it's lack of AoE it's single target dmg should b substantially higher than it is now. While this be addressed?

Balance has decent AoE with whirling blow applying force technique and FIB. Will it's sustained AOE be increased to compensate for not as competitive single target numbers compared to other classes? Further Reduced force cost on whirling blow.

 

KC Shadow tanks are meant to be spiky, that's fine.Will they remain as is or will spikiness be addressed? If that's staying as is will our passive defenses or selfhealing be increased to compensate? This is really my main question as KC Shadow is my main currently and I'm not giving it up, so hopefully this gets an answer from somewhere.

 

Phase walk, imo is great. As a pve tank the amount of things I've been able to set up is amazing. It let's me return to places immediately, predict where things are going (NM Horror, phase walk on one end of the room, force speed for other) gather groups of mobs up quickly and efficiently in one place and just overall do things that are just more difficult or not possible for other tanks to do.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Lithy

[Kitru]

While I agree with every other question being asked in this thread and post I want to say that resilience's tooltip is very clear, it increases your resistance BY 100%.

 

Except that if you check the actual *effects* of Resilience rather than just checking the tooltip, you'll see that it's not a 100% increase, it's a 200% increase. The tooltips are not the most reliable information about your character; your character sheet is. The only thing the character sheet *doesn't* show is multiplicative damage reduction mechanisms, like Shadow's Respite/Masked Assault, Warding Call, and the AoE damage reduction talents because those are pretty self explanatory.

 

The actual intent, as explained several times by the devs, is to allow Resilience to completely negate any and all F/T attacks barring those with the auto-hit tag (which is reserved for the various phase mechanic stuns that can't be broken out of, instant-wipe mechanics, and the like). One of the members of the combat team actually came and responded to a thread concerning Resilience being broken and said that the problem wasn't with Resilience (which was WAI) but with the back end of the attack formula which was applying a 5% floor to hit chance that they need to fix.

 

Of course, I'm curious why they couldn't just have Resilience apply 100% Resist chance *and* 100% F/T damage reduction such that, if the attack *does* penetrate with the 5% chance, we still take no damage from it (but have to deal with the secondary effects). Even if it were just a temporary solution while they're fixing the attack formula, I'm pretty sure it would keep everyone happy because, while it's not doing *exactly* what it should, it's close enough that most people probably won't care all that much.

[Lithy]

.

 

Fair enough then I have no reason to doubt that. I assumed the tool tip was the bugged part because it does the same for Evasion, it says 200% on the sheet and it says increases dodge chance by 100% on tooltip but ranged attacks still get though. Is evasion broken as well?

Edited July 14, 2013 by Lithy

[Kitru]

Is evasion broken as well?

 

Yes. The problem occurs for *any* ability that is intended to push hit chance down to 0% with a redundantly large amount of Defense or Resist chance. The minimum chance to hit is *always* 5% (though it wasn't always this way; it was a stealth change that landed around patch 1.4, when the "Resilience bug" first started popping up). It also affects Guardian Blade Turning.

[leto_cleon]

Questions

 

1a. Prior to 2.0 the effect of Technique Mastery on Force Technique was "Increases critical hit chance by 1/2/3% and the damage dealt by Force Technique by 6/12/18%". In 2.0 this was changed to "Increases melee and Force accuracy by 1/2/3% and Increases the critical hit chance of Force Technique by 15/30/45%." What was the rationale behind restricting critical chance buff and changing the flat damage buff to critical chance?

 

1b. Guardians and Sentinels at Insight to increase force critical chance by 2/4/6%. Sages get Penetrating Light to increase force critical chance by 1/2/3%. What is the rationale behind Shadows only getting a skill that increase melee critical chance (force synergy) and not force critical chance?

 

2. Prior to 2.0 Shadowy Veil was in Tier 1 of the Infiltration skill tree. In 2.0, Shadowy Veil was moved to Tier 2. As Shadowy Veil is also meant to benefit those using Force Technique, why was it made less accessible?

 

3. Commandos get Ironsights and Vanguards get Steely Resolve to increase Aim by 3/6/9%. Gunslingers get Streetwise and Scoundrels get Bedside Manner to increase Cunning by 3/6/9%. Guardians get Perseverance to increase Strength by 3/6%. Sages get Will of the Jedi to increase Willpower by 3/6%. What's the rationale behind Shadows not getting a skill that increases Willpower?

 

4. What's the rational behind Mind Maze costing 50 force (~6s force regen), but Tranquilizer being 20 energy (~3s regen)?

[leto_cleon]

Things I've noticed:

- The removal of Insta-FL has severely hurt this tree's PvP performance. Re-inserting this ability and perhaps moving such an ability higher up the tree to prevent hybrids is a recommendation.

- A proc that allows Spinning Strike or Shadow Strike to be used at any % of health. When this attack connects, it should either renew dots on said target, or cause X% more damage based upon the amount of dots on a target, or it can simply just restore X amount of force.

- Mental Defense should recover X amount of force in addition to its effect.

 

 

- Yeah it was actually bizarre that instant force lift was just removed. I think it was mostly a problem with hybrid, so all that needed to be done was add "only usable in force technique". Instant force lift also had its utility in PVE raids for bad pulls (a gunslinger not accidentally pulling is a rare feat )

 

- Hmm... a spinning strike proc at any health. For Knights in in the middle Vigilance or Combat tree, so well it might go into Infiltration. But... Balances needs buffs

 

- Why not tie increased force gen / alacrity to Psychic Absorption instead?

[CJNJ]

Just curious, I haven't read into the class rep thing much. Is it one rep for all shadows and assassins or is there a rep for shadows and a rep for sins?

[leto_cleon]

(4) Are DPS Shadows *ever* going to get some actually reasonable AoE? Force In Balance is about as close as we get and, even then, it only hits as hard as Force Sweep while on a longer CD.

 

- A proc that allows Spinning Strike or Shadow Strike to be used at any % of health. When this attack connects, it should either renew dots on said target, or cause X% more damage based upon the amount of dots on a target, or it can simply just restore X amount of force.

- Mental Defense should recover X amount of force in addition to its effect.

 

The Balance tree for Shadows is (or should be) about the synergy of force and melee attacks. So here's a thought on Shadow Strike and AOE.

 

Mental Defense: Reduces all damage taken while stunned by 15/30%. Grants a 50/100 % chance to make Shadow Strike usable when stunned, and upon activation projects a force avatar who deals Shadow Strike damage on all attackers. (Shadow Strike would still cost 75 force, so it would only be usable once every 10s. Though if a Shadow Strike AOE is too OP than well, Project would be fun too. And well in terms of effect, it gonna be "never chain stun a balance shadow".)

[Pyrinoos]

Main reason I ask this question is because of something that perhaps, can even extend past just Shadows / Assassins. What I'm fearing at this point is the stagnant, same-old-boring lock of PvP. Shadow just automatically designated to guard nodes, Guardian just automatically designated to MT. I'm wondering if it will ever be possible to reverse these roles, although, stealth generally does have a leg up on node guarding.

 

IMHO, it would be satisfying to see the day where a Shadow Tank can be equally as dominant as the Guardian Tank midfight and even visa versa with nodes. It's just this dynamism isn't here and it begins somewhere. Again, just one of many questions I'm sure we all have. Balance's performance is more of a priority over this for me.

 

Yes, I think the point should be are assassin/shadow tanks ever going to be viable choices to main tank? The best node guards because of stealth, sure. But if a ranked team has one player who only has an assassin/shadow tank and another player who has a geared assassin/shadow and a geared jugg, in the current meta player 1 will always be that teams node guard. If all three tanks were somewhat equally capable of main tanking a ranked game then those players could take turns guarding and tanking. They don't have to do anything to make juggs more viable as node guards, just make sin/shadow tanks better at main tanking.

[a-n-i-k-i]

...

I hope that there is a way to make us a truly wanted DPS asset in both PvE and PvP, but I don't think Bioware seems to care that much. ...

 

// PvE message

 

Yeah, they saw our complains a long time ago and they gave us some minor changes near the end of 2.0 PTS, but it was more PvP oriented.

We know for sure they read the forum, best example was 2.0 PTS.

They absolutely know what we think, about dps comparing to others, about fun away from balance, about huge dps gap (luck vs crit) in infiltration, ...

They precautiously said multiple things about this representative thing, it's just here to have a specific answer or a specific comment, so we can go a little further in their head, but on their side they already know what they have to know, choices are already been made.

Since most important problems will have a unique ambassador, the "masses of people whining on the forum" problem will be softened. It's all profit, for them. (and we're not even masses of dps shadows !)

I fear that the representative voice will become the unique voice, because they're tired to follow topics.

 

IMHO, to put suggestions inside a question is a waste of effort (1 question lost for nothing).

They have a stock of answers ready for our concerns, and none begin by "We agree ..."

And sorry being pessimist, but NO, they have no plan for dps shadows.

 

The reason is we're not enough players doing PvE with a dps shadow (yeah it's sad, it's a vicious circle), and their goal is to please current players with their current classes/specs, not to create a class/role migration.

And PvP always seemed more important for big choices.

There are numerous ways to boost our dps, better regen, more Force, PvE exclusive skills, PvE exclusive boosted current skills, PvE-only backstab for balance (more for fun), or give us a PvE buff saying "boost damages for all/Force/non-Force skills by 7%, buff only available in ops group/inside operation/ or not functioning on enemy players" or x% whatever is the most honest or create a special buff item that is not usable with a certain amount of expertise (with a little quest to get it ).

So either they don't know how to separate values between PvP and PvE skills , or they just don't want it.

Seems that PvE shadow dps has to be elitist, making others being tank or reroll, that's strange.

 

Knowing this, the best question for dps is : "How much players play a dps shadow for HL PvE content, comparatively" or "Are you serious ? *** :p"

Edited July 15, 2013 by a-n-i-k-i

[Ancaglon]

Of course, I'm curious why they couldn't just have Resilience apply 100% Resist chance *and* 100% F/T damage reduction such that, if the attack *does* penetrate with the 5% chance, we still take no damage from it (but have to deal with the secondary effects). Even if it were just a temporary solution while they're fixing the attack formula, I'm pretty sure it would keep everyone happy because, while it's not doing *exactly* what it should, it's close enough that most people probably won't care all that much.

Well, except that when it's stuns or pushes/pulls going through it, the "secondary effects" are actually more of an issue than the actual damage... meaning mostly PVP.

[Kitru]

Well, except that when it's stuns or pushes/pulls going through it, the "secondary effects" are actually more of an issue than the actual damage... meaning mostly PVP.

 

I know that it wouldn't explicitly solve the problem, but it would, at the very least, allow Resilience to function like it's *supposed* to 100% of the time where damage is concerned and only screw up the 5% of the time where secondary effects are concerned. It's just a simple temporary solution, but it would at least address the PvE and some PvP concerns while requiring almost no work.

[KeyboardNinja]

I know that it wouldn't explicitly solve the problem, but it would, at the very least, allow Resilience to function like it's *supposed* to 100% of the time where damage is concerned and only screw up the 5% of the time where secondary effects are concerned. It's just a simple temporary solution, but it would at least address the PvE and some PvP concerns while requiring almost no work.

 

I primarily use Resilience in PvP to negate the secondary effects. Mezes, pulls, stuns, etc. I care a lot less about the damage in *most* instances.

[oaceen]

my questions:

 

what the hell with tank spikiness, and what the hell with balance shadows?

 

 

 

i know someone commented on balance already by saying 'once you spend your points in your tree, everything else is just tertiary... you already have your rotation'

but with that in mind, i consider shadow strike part of the rotation already since it's a skill every shadow gets the moment they decide to become a shadow.

 

an equivalent ability i can think of is back blast for scoundrel. there are no skills to improve it in the dirty fighting tree, but it is still one of the best filler attack because it's great damage at a low cost.

 

this is not the case for shadows. shadow strike is decent damage at an absurd cost that's only ever useful with the procs that drastically lower that cost.

 

so a suggestion i have: reduce the native cost by 50% and give it a built-in cooldown, say 9s. remove the lockout from infiltration tactics, make it only reduce the cost by 50% (so the same cost reduction as before) and additionally have shadow wrap reset the cooldown of the skill and no longer reduce the cost.

essentially keep the procs for infiltration / combat without messing up with how they're used, but make shadow strike a strong filler attack (but no longer spammable) for balance

 

personally, i think i would prefer some proc for balance though (or move infiltration tactics back down, tie it force / shadow techniques). i felt it was a lot more challenging and fun to play the rotation pre-2.0, but my above suggestion is an alternative possibility.

[Ancaglon]

I like that idea. It doesn't take anything away from the other trees, and gives Focus a decent ability for the rotation.

 

But, this thread is for Questions, not suggestions those should flow out of the answers we get.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Ancaglon

[Lord_Huxley]

I agree with the bulk of the questions here listed.

 

For Phase Walk (with Shelter) I only drop it for healers at the start of the fight. If I get a chance or am off-tanking I will run it back and drop for them as well. The big issue I have with it is that the animation covers/overpowers all other things on the floor (at least for Sins not sure if Shadows have this). The Prophet of Vodal in Athiss will drop purple circles on the ground to avoid and there are the grenades from Battlelord Kreshan. They are hard to see under Phase Walk.

[Doulo]

PVE: Shadow Tank 'Spikiness'

 

PvP: The underperformance of Balance (as a supplemantary - do they know how many people play this spec now?).

 

'Wild card' question: Phase Walk concerns.

 

I think these are the three best right now. We need to phrase them simply so that we are asking for solid answers, but still be expansive enough that there will have to be a substantial answer.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Doulo

[stuffystuffs]

Anything that brings back more melee ability usage for Balance is good.

 

Spamming Double Strike/Saber Strike is zzzzzzzzzzzz

 

I like the Spinning Strike at any health idea (it could have a chance to proc of of a DOT).

 

A proc that makes Shadow Strike useful would be great too. Possibly make the next Shadow Strike used cost a bit less force and maybe consume all DOTs on the target but turn them into extra force damage on top of the SS melee damage. Timing on when to use that might be tricky. That might be a bad idea, but basically it would be nice to see a skill unique to Balance that affects SS like Shadow Wrap or Infiltration Tactics but does something different from those.

[dipstik]

i also feel that balance should be able to use shadow strike more frequently.

shadow tank spike in 16m hm, 8m nim and 16m nim needs to be addressed.

[DarthSpekulatius]

 

PVE: Shadow Tank 'Spikiness'

 

PvP: The underperformance of Balance (as a supplemantary - do they know how many people play this spec now?).

 

'Wild card' question: Phase Walk concerns.

 

 

I think these are the three best right now. We need to phrase them simply so that we are asking for solid answers, but still be expansive enough that there will have to be a substantial answer.

 

i agree with the points

 

neither shadow tank Spikiness nor the general state of Balance are purely pve/pvp though, they are lacking in both.

 

as main tank shadows aren't wanted

node-guard shadows are between good enough and very good as far as i can see

so id say it's a PVE Problem (not elusively and any fix for burst survivability in pve would also affect PVP positivly)

 

Balance is both not much need to elaborate i think

 

then there's the Randomness Infiltration has, i don't play that spec (at all) but i can see very clearly that its dependency on Crits hurts the spec badly for PVP because:

First you won't always Crit when you need to

Second others will only look at the big numbers and say Infi is totally Overpowered

anyway I'd say thats only number 4

behind phase walk since infiltration seems to work good enough to be an asset?

 

(in terms of pvp i can only speak for PUG matches, however i can't see how it could work better in ranked if it doesn't even work really well in Pugs.)

[Sarenne]

I realize that balance needs a major fix but please remember there are two DPS trees and infiltration still lags behind balance in PVE so I'd really like to see both DPS trees addressed. Saying infiltration doesn't need a fix because it's decent in PVP is no different from saying PVE tanks don't need a fix because they're good node guards.

[thejollygreenone]

I realize that balance needs a major fix but please remember there are two DPS trees and infiltration still lags behind balance in PVE so I'd really like to see both DPS trees addressed. Saying infiltration doesn't need a fix because it's decent in PVP is no different from saying PVE tanks don't need a fix because they're good node guards.

+1 most certainly. Balance is in need of some big changes to appease the players but overall BOTH trees need a way to compete with the other damage classes. If balance gets fixed and then is in the top contenders and infiltration stays exactly where it is i might quit this game.