KBN's Guide to Combat Spec (or: how to sentinel tank)

[KeyboardNinja]

So I'm finally back from my trip and I got a chance to play around with new Combat a bit, though on a rather laggy connection and a toon that only has 180s. First off, I'd like to reiterate that I still believe the changes really suck and I'm very sad that they happened. With that out of the way…

 

Cooldown Drift

 

This is the most difficult skill check in this spec post-2.10. None of the cooldowns align. At all. One would want to align everything in the rotation along a cycle with a 10.5 second period. The following lists our major abilities and how they drift relative to Precision Slash.

 

A - indicates that it drifts back, while a + indicates that it drifts forward. Thus, a + is sort of ok, since we can make that ability line up by delaying it by the drift length. A - means that we cannot realign the ability without delaying Precision Slash itself. Delaying abilities to make them fall under Precision Slash is generally ok. Delaying Precision Slash is not ok. Thus, the + drifts are annoying but not problematic. The - drifts are severely problematic at various points.

 

• Zealous Strike (-1.5s)
  
• Master Strike (+1.5s)
  
• Dispatch (-1.5s)
  
• Cauterize (-3.5s)
  
• Twin Saber Throw (+3s)
  
• Blade Storm (+1.5s)
  

 

Zealous Strike is by far the worst offender here. The fact that it misaligns with Precision Slash by exactly 1 GCD is a real problem, since it means that every fifth Zealous Strike will come off cooldown during Precision Slash. This was a problem even with the old double-PS rotation, but it's more acute now since we only have four GCDs to build up enough focus for our next PS window (more on that in a second). The end result is that new Combat has a distinctly "Watchman-ish" flare, where the focus costs come crashing down around our ears once every few rotations.

 

Note that the above implies that you categorically must always put Master Strike inside of Precision Slash, and further implies that Master Strike must take priority over Blade Storm in such windows. Clipping Master Strike is a requirement, even under Zen. (sidebar for future investigation: this means that alacrity might actually have some value now)

 

Another implication of the above is that Dispatch should be mostly used on CD during the execute phase (regardless of proc status), except when Precision Slash has less than 2 seconds on the cooldown. In that case, delay Dispatch and use it in the first GCD of the window. The exception to that guideline is if PS has less than 2 seconds on its cooldown and Master Strike has less than 0.5 seconds and you have less than 24 stacks of Centering, in which case you should use Dispatch immediately since you won't be able to get it into the window. This does require some practice.

 

Focus Costs

 

In the old double-PS regime, we could actually predict our focus costs a bit better due to the reliable focus-builder GCD between windows and the longer rotation period. 7 focus was enough to get through any non-Zen double PS pair, and we could stick with that pretty reliably since Master Strike always went in the second window. With the more frequent PS, oddly, our focus costs have become less consistent but still potentially just as high as they were before.

 

Blade Storm goes in every single Precision Slash window. No exceptions. It does move around within the windows, but it will always be present somewhere. Thus, the only distinction between windows (absent Zen) is in the two remaining GCDs. I have broken down the focus costs of all valid windows below:

 

• Master Strike (3 focus)
  
• Dispatch (proc) > Twin Saber Throw (3 focus)
  
• Dispatch (no proc) > Twin Saber Throw (5 focus)
  
• Dispatch (proc) > Blade Rush (4 focus)
  
• Dispatch (no proc) > Blade Rush (7 focus)
  
• Blade Rush > Twin Saber Throw (5 focus)
  
• Blade Rush > Blade Rush (7 focus)
  

 

All windows involve a focus refund of at least 1. The costs listed are the execution costs, meaning you need at least that much focus in your pool, even though you won't actually use all of it.

 

As you can see, the focus costs are pretty much the same as they used to be in the worst two cases (double-BR or Disp>BR). Every other window will involve a Twin Saber Throw, and every third window will involve a Master Strike (delaying TST). This means that, on average, you will see a "worst-case" window about 25-30% of the time, depending on RNG. That number climbs closer to 30% during the execute phase, since you're using your proc'd Dispatch outside of the PS window, uniformly increasing costs.

 

So, every 3-4 windows are expensive (7 focus) depending on HoJ RNG, while every fifth window happens without Zealous Strike. This means that every 15-20 windows, you will see an expensive window without being able to use Zealous Strike at any point before that window but after the previous one. This situation SUCKS. You basically end up having to Strike three out of your four filler GCDs, probably delaying Cauterize and maybe even not building Opportune Attack (depending on ataru RNG). The good news is that the previous window is guaranteed not to be expensive and guaranteed to have a Zealous Strike immediately prior, which means you can plan for this situation a bit in advance and save up some extra focus. Basically, the same thing you do in Watchman.

 

Zen pretty much uniformly increases PS window costs by 2 focus. There are exceptions to this (e.g. Master Strike > Blade Storm > Twin Saber Throw), but in general you should just plan on having one Strike more focus going into a PS window where Zen will be active. Thus, the worst-case scenario is a 9 focus window, which is hilariously expensive given that we need to build all of that focus in just four GCDs, potentially without being able to use Zealous Strike.

 

Managing your focus is the second-hardest thing about this spec. Since it is cooldown-dependent, and the cooldowns don't align, you could actually make a pretty compelling argument that it is the absolute hardest aspect of the spec.

 

Blade Rush

 

Correctly managing the Blade Rush buff is the last 100-150 DPS that separates a good parse from a fantastic parse. Blade Rush should be used in one of the two GCDs prior to Precision Slash, ideally in the very last one (but not mandatorially). Blade Rush should be used once every four GCDs at a minimum, but unfortunately that's not sustainable from a focus standpoint. You need to build a lot of focus between windows, and you need to get Cauterize on cooldown, and you don't always have Zealous Strike to help you out. The buff falls off sometimes and you simply can't avoid it.

 

Due to the more variable focus costs, Blade Rush seems to be used a bit less often than before. I guess that's sort of nice…

 

Oh, one thing to keep in mind here. Due to the misaligned CD on Zealous Strike, it is actually possible to hit a PS window during the execute phase without having Opportune Attack available. This can probably be avoided by using Blade Rush rather than Dispatch if you don't have OA. It can happen outside the execute phase as well if your expensive ZS-less window aligns with the cooldown on Cauterize (roughly once every 30-40 windows). Be careful. Opportune Attack is more important than keeping Cauterize or even Dispatch on CD.

 

Opener

 

I'm pretty sure the following is optimal:

 

Leap + Zen + Valorous > ZS > BR > Inspiration + Adrenal + [PS + MS > BS > Disp/TST] > Cauterize > Strike > Strike > BR > [PS + BS > Disp/TST > BR] > ZS

 

You can use Blade Storm before Master Strike if you want to. I prefer to use Master Strike first so that the CD aligns more precisely with Precision Slash, thus making it slightly easier to use the second time it comes off CD. It doesn't make much of a difference though.

 

If you use the double Zen trick (e.g. for a dummy parse), you can delay your first activated Zen until after the first window, and Valorous gets paired with Inspiration rather than Zen.

 

APM

 

Due to Zen, our GCDs often drift out of alignment with the 10.5 second CD on Precision Slash. This isn't anything new. However, what is new is the fact that we don't have to worry about HoJ procing and eating a Precision Slash. This means that certain instances where we would hit the end of a GCD with about 0.2s on the cooldown of PS no longer result in a (slight) loss of APM. Previously, if we hit that situation and we had gotten an early HoJ proc in the previous double-PS window, the optimal response was to stand still for the 0.2s rather than risk an early proc. This resulted in a very slight loss of APM. Post-2.10, we don't delay anything. If PS has 0.2 seconds on it, we squeeze in another GCD and delay PS by 1.3 seconds as a result.

 

All of this means that the optimal dummy APM for this spec is probably around 50.3 (maybe 50.4).

Edited September 12, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Ardarell_Solo]

Two words: Thank you!

[angushammet]

When do you apply ZEN in the rotation? i don't understand... :s

 

Can we have a video guide on youtube or something else?

 

Thank you very much!

[TACeMossie]

When do you apply ZEN in the rotation? i don't understand... :s

 

Can we have a video guide on youtube or something else?

 

Thank you very much!

 

As he said 2 posts above, unless Precision Slash has <3 seconds left on its cooldown, use Zen immediately. Otherwise, delay it until you hit Precision Slash

[Ardarell_Solo]

Hey guys, it's been a while since the specc is under examination and I haven't done too much testing in Combat. Do you think it can give 4K consistently? For I'm having a hard time pushing numbers with it. It's probably just me, but 4.1 K seems pretty much impossible to me atm...

 

Any further insights how the rotation could be further optimized in addition to what's been mentioned here?

 

*scratcheshishead*

[Maudril]

Yes, because spending a fight staring at one's personal buff bar to ID two tiny icons is the penultimate indicator of l33tness

 

You appear to be confused. In this threat we are talking about old *Combat*, not *Vigilance*. Please go to the Guardian message board if you wanna talk about old Vigilance.

 

Largely the same. We've lost the double PS windows, but now we have OA on demand and BS comes off CD 1.5 seconds before PS. That gives you about 5 seconds between windows to keep your Cauterize dot going while you make sure you have the right amount of focus and an OA proc for the next PS window.

 

And this is why I now gun for Ataru form in PVP. I gun for them because I know Exactly when their next PS is gonna pop, and I'll be happy to interrupt them all and shut him/her down completely.

yay for static rotiations, they made combat even easier to shut down!

 

Blade Rush in between PS windows anyway, let alone Dispatch Sub 30 as well.

 

I always tried to line up a PS window with when MS goes off cooldown if I could also line up a zen. If not, sometimes MS just stayed off CD for a while

[g_mK]

Hey guys, it's been a while since the specc is under examination and I haven't done too much testing in Combat. Do you think it can give 4K consistently? For I'm having a hard time pushing numbers with it. It's probably just me, but 4.1 K seems pretty much impossible to me atm...

 

Any further insights how the rotation could be further optimized in addition to what's been mentioned here?

 

*scratcheshishead*

 

I would say that in full Dreadmaster you should be able to hit 3950 on a consistent basis with 4000-4100 on the lucky parses

[Phatbeard]

You appear to be confused. In this threat we are talking about old *Combat*, not *Vigilance*. Please go to the Guardian message board if you wanna talk about old Vigilance.

 

Thanks Captain Patronzing! I suppose I couldn't possibly have been referring to the old OA and HOJ buffs, now could I?

[justinplainview]

Hey guys, it's been a while since the specc is under examination and I haven't done too much testing in Combat. Do you think it can give 4K consistently? For I'm having a hard time pushing numbers with it. It's probably just me, but 4.1 K seems pretty much impossible to me atm...

 

Any further insights how the rotation could be further optimized in addition to what's been mentioned here?

 

*scratcheshishead*

 

I hit 4k quite often, it's not a difficult 4k TBH. 4.1 seems within reach if I can just handle execute more effectively. 4.2 with BiS HONESTLY seems possible, but not something you'd do often. Also, I don't feel bloodthirst/inspiration at the start of a fight is optimal in this spec anymore. I found better results with double berserk and a berserk+frenzy+bloodthirst+adrenal leading into the first gore window in execute phase that has ravage up.

[Sarafain]

I started another thread but was referred here.

 

I'm a little confused :S

 

I was under the impression that there was a delay in when VT and DST actually did it's damage; meaning you could get an extra hit in a Gore window. Ideally I'd try for Massacre, VT/DST + Gore, <Insert Gore rotation>. Yet now I'm see that VT/DST should be the 3rd GCD in a Gore window; Does this cause the tick to possibly miss the Gore window?

 

The 2nd thing is do you only use Ravage under Berserk effect? I had been using Berserk on CD, holding it only if there was 2/3 GCD's before Gore/Ravage. If Gore/Ravage was up without Berserk I'd still Gore/Ravage.

[KeyboardNinja]

I was under the impression that there was a delay in when VT and DST actually did it's damage; meaning you could get an extra hit in a Gore window. Ideally I'd try for Massacre, VT/DST + Gore, <Insert Gore rotation>. Yet now I'm see that VT/DST should be the 3rd GCD in a Gore window; Does this cause the tick to possibly miss the Gore window?

 

Not to my knowledge. Remember that the VT/DST trick required hitting Gore almost instantly after the ability activation (depending on boss hitbox size). There has never really been a problem putting VT at the end of a window, providing that you're quick enough. Clipping Ravage helps a lot:

 

[Gore + Ravage (clip) > Scream > VT/DST]

 

There's actually plenty of time at the tail end of that Gore window. In fact, there's enough time that you could feasible use the pre-Gore DST trick at the front end of the window and still have enough time for VT at the end:

 

DST > [Gore > Ravage (clip) > Scream > VT]

 

I really, really don't recommend this though. For starters, it requires godlike timing to reliably clip Ravage while under Berserk. You can do it, and many people do, but it's very tight. If you mess it up, VT will be pushed out of Gore in this variation since you're hitting Gore between the DST and Ravage GCDs. So basically, the above is just a bit of theorizing about what you could do if you really wanted to. I recommend against it.

 

The 2nd thing is do you only use Ravage under Berserk effect? I had been using Berserk on CD, holding it only if there was 2/3 GCD's before Gore/Ravage. If Gore/Ravage was up without Berserk I'd still Gore/Ravage.

 

Ravage on cooldown, especially now that it aligns almost perfectly with Gore. It is true that Ravage is your highest DPS use of Berserk, since it doesn't consume a stack, but it's really not worth delaying it. Every third Gore should look like this, no exceptions:

 

[Gore + Ravage > Scream > gcd?]

 

The GCD at the end is dependent on whether or not Berserk is active during the Gore window.

[Sarafain]

Thanks KBN.

 

just to clairify it's best to use Massacre before a Gore, rage depending then just VT/DST within.

 

I just don't want to teach my fingers a new order.

[KeyboardNinja]

Thanks KBN.

 

just to clairify it's best to use Massacre before a Gore, rage depending then just VT/DST within.

 

I just don't want to teach my fingers a new order.

 

Yes. Massacre is just about the lowest-damage thing that you can do in a Gore (aside from the obviously-bad things like Assault or Rupture), so it's your lowest priority. However, the buff is fantastic (more Ataru = more damage), so you want to have it up to maximize your Ataru hits under Gore, which means using it in the GCD prior to Gore whenever possible.

 

I'll defer to Pumpy on the question of whether or not it is ever advantageous to VT/DST prior to a Gore window. I never really liked that trick (because of variable boss hitboxes and instance latency), so I'm not the best source on that one. :-)

[justinplainview]

Yes. Massacre is just about the lowest-damage thing that you can do in a Gore (aside from the obviously-bad things like Assault or Rupture), so it's your lowest priority. However, the buff is fantastic (more Ataru = more damage), so you want to have it up to maximize your Ataru hits under Gore, which means using it in the GCD prior to Gore whenever possible.

 

I'll defer to Pumpy on the question of whether or not it is ever advantageous to VT/DST prior to a Gore window. I never really liked that trick (because of variable boss hitboxes and instance latency), so I'm not the best source on that one. :-)

 

On a dummy I absolutely pre-spam vicious throw into gore windows with a Massacre preceding the VIcious Throw, because it absolutely is a DPS gain on dummy. In fights, there IS a higher risk of the gore itself not activating if you pre-spam vicious throw (happened to me twice the first time I used Carnage on Calph), so I stopped pre-spamming on that fight, but I still did it on Raptus.

 

The main issue with whether or not you pre spam Vicious Throw into a gore window is that it's far less simple when you're moving around, staying out of stupid and you have to time it properly than when you're on a parse dummy. If you can comfortably activate the abilities with proper timing (and if your latency in raid doesn't mess with the activation) then it's 100% a DPS gain, but I would suggest you run it in a HM where the DPS doesn't matter, then go into your fight logs and make sure that you're getting the gore buff on VT in raid before doing it in NiM. I know more than a few maras that have that problem where on a dummy it works just fine but they can't get the timing down in raid.

 

I know that KBN does the Massacre leading into gore for Ataru form hits, which is sound reasoning for the priority. I should point out that I use Carnage a little differently in that I use Dual Saber Throw as a Rage offset, in that I use it as an attack outside of gore where I don't have to Assault (one less focus building global) followed by a Rupture (making it to where I have a static place for both abilities in my rotation, allowing for a quick recovery for any mistakes made).

Edited October 2, 2014 by justinplainview

[KeyboardNinja]

I know that KBN does the Massacre leading into gore for Ataru form hits, which is sound reasoning for the priority. I should point out that I use Carnage a little differently in that I use Dual Saber Throw as a Rage offset, in that I use it as an attack outside of gore where I don't have to Assault (one less focus building global) followed by a Rupture (making it to where I have a static place for both abilities in my rotation, allowing for a quick recovery for any mistakes made).

 

I still don't quite understand what this looks like in practice. Could you elaborate more? Doesn't using Rupture in a static spot result in significant delays on the ability, particularly when paired with the way in which Battering drifts?

 

At present, I'm using DST exclusively within Gore windows. I could see it being a good idea outside of Gore in situations where your rage levels are a bit wonky (i.e. that one window where you don't get Battering) and you have enough things up that you can't squeeze DST in the next few windows (happens often in the execute). I guess there's sort of a question of how long of a delay on DST is too long, and at what point does it become more worthwhile just to use it right away and exchange an additional Massacre in an upcoming Gore.

Edited October 2, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[justinplainview]

From my phone I can't post logs, but with a static rotation of where I place rupture, I do roughly 40-45k in rupture bleeds on a 1 mill dummy, which looks on par next to other new carnage parses I've seen, which suggests I'm not seeing any significant delays with the ability. When I'm not being lazy and when I get my second relic (either the upcoming Tuesday or the one after) I'll be reparsing and will post parses, priorities, and thoughts behind where I place things, so that it can be critiqued or given more ideas. Because at the moment I can't break 4100 and I know for a fact it's more than possible. Edited October 2, 2014 by justinplainview

[KeyboardNinja]

From my phone I can't post logs, but with a static rotation of where I place rupture, I do roughly 40-45k in rupture bleeds on a 1 mill dummy, which looks on par next to other new carnage parses I've seen, which suggests I'm not seeing any significant delays with the ability. When I'm not being lazy and when I get my second relic (either the upcoming Tuesday or the one after) I'll be reparsing and will post parses, priorities, and thoughts behind where I place things, so that it can be critiqued or given more ideas.

 

I'd be curious to see the seconds-per-activation on DST and Cauterize, as well as the obvious candidates of Gore and Vicious Throw (though VT would be more useful if we could separate execute from non-execute). I'll do a parse tonight and see what my numbers look like in these areas. StarParse has better tools for splitting fight phases than Parsec, so maybe I'll be able to use that to get the information I'm interested in w.r.t. VT.

 

Because at the moment I can't break 4100 and I know for a fact it's more than possible.

 

First world Marauder problems. ;-)

Edited October 2, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[KeyboardNinja]

Continuing a conversation I had with Justin yesterday…

 

We were discussing whether it was better to use Dual Saber Throw in Gore or Massacre. I went back and did the calculations using Macedonicus's AskMrRobot profile (basically BiS) with cheated up surge, since his AMR is spec'd into Watchman. I think the results are relatively realistic. Using the game's fundamental formulae, I calculated the total expected value of Massacre including the forced Ataru hit and the surge talent, as well as the total expected value of Dual Saber Throw both with and without the Massacre buff assuming only one target is hit. The results are as follows:

 

<|mass -> {4242.86, 4672.83}, dstproc -> {4723.84, 5329.56}, dstnoproc -> {4457.27, 5028.91}|>

 

Min hit is to the left, max hit is to the right (calculates assuming average crit rates, and thus you will see values both higher and lower than this, depending on crits and relics and weaponmaster). These calculations also ignore armor, simulating what would happen inside a Gore window. To see what happens outside a Gore window but with an armor debuff, multiply by (1 - 0.31).

 

Anyway, it's very clear that Massacre is far less potent than Dual Saber Throw, even if DST is used without the Massacre buff active. Using DST with the Massacre buff increases the expected damage substantially, so it's absolutely worth keeping that buff up as much as you can (thus, if you are in a Gore window and you have to use both Massacre and DST, use Massacre first).

 

As a sidebar, it looks like DST is precisely 12.7% more powerful than Massacre (assuming the Massacre buff) in current gear levels. Gore increases the damage of an ability without armor pen by 1/(1 - 0.31) -1 = 44.93%. A 44.93% increase on a 12.7% benefit is worth 18.41%, which is to say that it is worth delaying Dual Saber Throw by no more than 3.32 seconds (or just over 2 GCDs) to fit it into a Gore window, and this is not accounting for the fact that it's free!

 

In other words, these calculations indicate that you should delay DST to fit it into Gore only if it comes off cooldown roughly 1 GCD before Gore does. If it comes off CD before Gore but you know you won't be able to fit it into the next Gore window (e.g. due to Ravage coming off CD), you should just use it right away.

Edited October 3, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[justinplainview]

I REALLY need to figure out why my critted averages of massacre are often higher than my critted DST averages. It's not on every parse but it's almost every time DST has a low crit %. It makes me gunshy on DST inside of Gore unless it's leading in, but I guess I just have to ignore it and see where it leads me.

[KeyboardNinja]

I REALLY need to figure out why my critted averages of massacre are often higher than my critted DST averages. It's not on every parse but it's almost every time DST has a low crit %. It makes me gunshy on DST inside of Gore unless it's leading in, but I guess I just have to ignore it and see where it leads me.

 

Surge talent! :-D I wanted to mention that to you last night but I was too busy.

Edited October 3, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[justinplainview]

Surge talent! :-D I wanted to mention that to you last night but I was too busy.

 

You mean me having 77.95% crit chance isn't high enough in one relic shy of BiS? Or do you mean if it doesn't crit often surge is less I'm confused

[Emperor-Norton]

You mean me having 77.95% crit chance isn't high enough in one relic shy of BiS? Or do you mean if it doesn't crit often surge is less I'm confused

http://www.torhead.com/ability/a02I8gD/sever

+30% Damage on Crits from Blade Storm and Blade Rush

Edited October 4, 2014 by Emperor-Norton

[justinplainview]

http://www.torhead.com/ability/a02I8gD/sever

+30% Damage on Crits from Blade Storm and Blade Rush

 

No, I get that part, I meant I don't understand why because KBN was telling me last night that DST hits inside gore harder than Massacre, but my Massacre average crit was higher than my DST average crit.

[TACeMossie]

No, I get that part, I meant I don't understand why because KBN was telling me last night that DST hits inside gore harder than Massacre, but my Massacre average crit was higher than my DST average crit.

 

Probably because outside of crits (which will happen more often), DST hits harder than Massacre. And unlike Torparse, Parsec splits up the crits vs non-crits for averages.

[justinplainview]

Probably because outside of crits (which will happen more often), DST hits harder than Massacre. And unlike Torparse, Parsec splits up the crits vs non-crits for averages.

 

I know, I'm usually going through parsec when checking on this stuff. IDC about a non critted DST. I care about the critted ones