Dear fanbase... Why?

[Bugattiboy]

So, here we are, playing a MMO. Star Wars, the Old Republic, actually. It's actually free to play, but we subscribed, because we want full access to the game, right?

I guess, technically it is FTP, but as someone who's lapsed into FTP quite a few times and experienced its restrictions, I can say for certain FTP is just subscription bait.

 

See, the problem I have is that for any other game, we wouldn't expect to receive rewards just for buying it. The reward would be the game itself. If we bought Halo 4, we expect to be able to play... Halo 4. There aren't any special discounts for being a long time Halo fan. There aren't any random in game drops that are like "Hey, you're awesome, just like everyone else who bought this game! Enjoy a rocket launcher for the next couple of stages!"

Well to start, I don't really care for Halo or any other FPS for that matter. Name one time when has EA EVER said "Hey, you're awesome." to it's customers and actually meant it and didn't have a hidden agenda. No it's fine, I'll wait.

 

We bought the game so that we could play it. Yet we demand that we be given extra for doing exactly what we do with every other game. You paid to have fun, to enjoy the storyline, to have a good time with the other players. And instead of just one storyline and character, we have at least 8, which split into further playstyles. This game has an incredible replay value for the $15 we paid for a month of subscribing - it would be the rough equivalent of, say, Halo 4 for $15? That's if you only stuck to one character, when there are many many different possibilities, as I just said.

From the looks of it, this is your first online game (MMO). They are completely different can of worms than retail games. Incredible replay value for the people who like to make more than one character. Just so you know there are people that don't like making more than one character. No it would NOT be the rough equivalent of getting Halo 4 for $15.

 

Then we go and hate on Bioware as a whole for displeasing us over one little thing! Bioware, the same company that made Mass Effect, for Emperor's sake. Yes, the ending was bad but was the ride there not spectacular? Let's not even talk about KOTOR the original, or Baldur's Gate, or any number of the great titles they've put out.

Well, anybody that's owned by EA gets that displeasure. Displeasing me what this one little thing? If you think one little thing is all that's wrong with game, than you need to take off the rose tinted glasses man. They made Mass Effect? Oh yeah I heard about, it was the game they completely and totally, in ever sense of the word, flopped the ending.

 

My point is, Bioware and this game aren't perfect, but I really, really feel like I've spent my money well on this game. I enjoy the time I spend with my guildmates, or questing, or dominating the GTN, or whatever. Getting upset over Treek, or the Sub appreciation thing not being 'good enough' (when they didn't even need to do it in the first place), or whatever other excuse people use to get mad - it just doesn't work for me. I'd rather be playing The Old Republic with a smile on my face than complaining about the few flaws that it has.

 

... and that's all I have to say about that

You're right, it's definitely not pefect. You like dominating the GTN? That's so American of you. People are getting upset over Treek? I actually didn't know that, but don't really don't care either. I'll unlock her, just like HK-51, but I'll still never use her either. Unless she can heal better than Doc. As for sub appreciation, no, they didn't need to, but I'm glad they did. It's never too late for EA to start trying. But honestly, there has not been one "I absolutely NEED to have/do that" feature/item yet that has been sub only, not in the Cartel Market, and doesn't cost cartel coins. I like playing TOR with smile as well, just not one of blind faith or ignorance. And that's VERY loose use of the term "few".

[CosmicKat]

Actually, MOST games out there nowadays go for 60$ (or more) and last only 3-8 hours before you have to replay them. Sure some might have a bit of a difference when replaying them, but most dont.

Theres always the games that last forever tho, like civ or total war games. But thats a whole different genre.

MMO's with an optional sub usually dont dole out rewards to subbers each month... Well, not more than SW:TOR already does anyway (with the 500+ free cc each month)

 

3-8 hours? That's not a PC game, that's a Peter Jackson movie.

 

An MMO has to offer replayability through the combat, as that is the activity you will be doing for 99% of all time spent in any MMO. If the combat is hard and challenging then it immediately gains replayability. If it's not hard or challenging then it must offer a whole lot of variety. TOR is far from hard, and there is little variety.

 

Story only offers so much replay value. A linear story in a world with easy, repetitive PvE combat has little replay value. This much should have been obvious from about the launch +3 month time period. Still though, the only part of that formula that realistically can be improved/altered/tweaked (the PvE combat), has not been touched. The activity that every player has to do, and that most players are there to replay over and over is the same today as it was at launch.

[LordArtemis]

3-8 hours? That's not a PC game, that's a Peter Jackson movie..

 

That deserves a brownie.

[SkunkWerks]

3-8 hours? That's not a PC game, that's a Peter Jackson movie.

 

An MMO has to offer replayability through the combat, as that is the activity you will be doing for 99% of all time spent in any MMO. If the combat is hard and challenging then it immediately gains replayability. If it's not hard or challenging then it must offer a whole lot of variety. TOR is far from hard, and there is little variety.

 

Story only offers so much replay value. A linear story in a world with easy, repetitive PvE combat has little replay value. This much should have been obvious from about the launch +3 month time period. Still though, the only part of that formula that realistically can be improved/altered/tweaked (the PvE combat), has not been touched. The activity that every player has to do, and that most players are there to replay over and over is the same today as it was at launch.

 

So, what you appear to be saying is: no one should be playing.

[CosmicKat]

So, what you appear to be saying is: no one should be playing.

 

No.

 

I'm saying that as long as the 1-max level PvE game experience remains ultra-simple and blandly repetitive, the game has no chance of keeping the majority of players who try it.

[SkunkWerks]

No.

 

I'm saying that as long as the 1-max level PvE game experience remains ultra-simple and blandly repetitive, the game has no chance of keeping the majority of players who try it.

 

So, almost no one should be playing this game. Got it.

[Bugattiboy]

I'm saying that as long as the 1-max level PvE game experience remains ultra-simple and blandly repetitive, the game has no chance of keeping the majority of players who try it.

Never underestimate MMO nerds. Or people that like or work in data entry.

[Ottoattack]

There are multiple reasons fan base are upset:

 

1) This is not a one time purchase like Halo 4, Kotor or ME3 (which you compared with). Thus as a subscriber I expect to receive some sort of new content at least once every 3 month ($45). And by new content I mean "new" not rehashed on a higher difficulty (e.g. TBF NIM mode). Last unpaid content (Makeb was paid for separately) was in the end of 2012. So I am unhappy, because I am bored.

 

2) With Makeb BW decided to completely phase out 3 of the 5 operation and all flash points except 4. PvE end game content is pretty much 2 ops and 4 FPs. How many times will you replay them before they get old? While I am not a fan of rehashed content, I would like more options than 2 ops and 4 fps. Same as above, I am overall bored.

 

3) Will PvP... BW killed PvP with bolster, which most high end PvPers viewed it as extremely negative, and we are still to this day (3 month after launch) resolving bolster exploits.

 

4) Bugs... The hyperspace bug that causes black talon, esseles and the foundry to crash is still present, for almost a year after it has been known. Currently, the PvP que gets grayed out and you have to reset Ui interface (which not a lot of people know how to reset). Many cloth have clipping issues. New long hair for humans has clipping issues. PTs dps off-hand is still not present in the in the basic and elite vendors (only AC that doesn't). These are the bugs I remember on the top of my head, but there is much more!

 

5) Class balance. PvE wise I can tell you that classes are not dpsing within "5% range" BW mentioned. Only 3 classes are. Sin tanks have much harder time tanking than the other 2 tanks. Merc healers are not on par with the other 2. PvP wise, you simply have to pick between snipers and warriors for competitive dps. Again merc healers are not on par. Jugg tanks are the best by a big margin. While class balance is subjective, I would expect that there is an ongoing evaluation of how classes are performing and constant changes to class balance, considering that I pay $15 a month. It takes BW 6-8 month to make changes for class balances that they admit to be not working as intended (bubble stun, merc dps performance in PvP).

 

6) Cartel Market. I am not against it as an idea, but items are poorly designed. 95% of the items are just recycling of items already in the game with a different color or slightly different pattern. Of course, version 2.1 making all changes to class visual cost CC was NOT NICE. Same with dyes, but at least these you can buy from GTN.

 

The overall impression that I have is that BW is testing how far can they go in terms of providing too little for subs before they decide to cancel subscription. And the way things are going I feel that I am on the edge of unsubbin, because the PvE content in the game is old and limited for 10 month old sub as me. PvP used to be great till version 2.0. I am overall not convinced that the value I am receiving is worth the money I am paying. I am still invested in the game, but I feel it won't be for much longer.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Ottoattack

[LordArtemis]

Well, I think the game DID have almost no chance of keeping players that tried it. But now it has a much better chance.

 

The market prefers the current model in place except for a few notable exceptions in the market. That doesn't mean this model is perfect, nor does it mean it doesn't need to improve and change a few things, but overall the game is MUCH more appealing to a wider audience than it was at launch.

 

The flaws the game had (and still has to some extent) are not as prevalent since the addition of casual friendly features.

 

This is just MY slant, which of course means next to nothing.

[adamqd]

If this game were a girl, you'd be a White Knight.

[Tsillah]

see, back when the only way to get the game was to buy it and subscribe - sure it was worth it.

 

but nowadays. game is free. I don't have to subscribe to play it. I don't have to keep subscribing to keep playing it. so... why should I? what is my incentive? few minor conveniences that can be circumvented through cartel market unlocks (that others sell on GTN so I don't even have to pay any extra real life money for them)? goodness of my heart?

 

the game is great. the game is fun. its the subscription model that's... not so great IMO.

 

because call me a jerk or whatever, but I don't see why I should give money to someone when I don't have to. unless giving money comes with benefits I cannot get for free.

 

Don't you need a sub to be able to post here?

[Repman]

People will complain about everything, no game can be perfect for everyone. Any ideas BioWare implements, even if you and I think its the greatest idea ever, someone will complain about it.

 

And ideas I think were dumb, like perma-death for SWG Jedi (I did have to re-roll once so I maybe biases;) ) someone thought it was a great idea, probably a BH

 

Yes... in other words you can't please everyone all the time.

[CosmicKat]

Well, I think the game DID have almost no chance of keeping players that tried it. But now it has a much better chance.

 

The market prefers the current model in place except for a few notable exceptions in the market. That doesn't mean this model is perfect, nor does it mean it doesn't need to improve and change a few things, but overall the game is MUCH more appealing to a wider audience than it was at launch.

 

The flaws the game had (and still has to some extent) are not as prevalent since the addition of casual friendly features.

 

This is just MY slant, which of course means next to nothing.

 

Nothing in TOR has ever been casual unfriendly. It is and always has been extremely casual friendly.

 

They have added and modified a lot of cool stuff, my personal favorite being the adaptive armor concept.

 

They haven't, however, changed much of anything in the non-endgame PvE game since launch. This is pretty much unheard of in the MMO world, as every other MMO I've ever played has made massive changes in their first couple of years, the highly successful ones as well as the highly underperforming ones.

[Inflicktion]

Well, I think the game DID have almost no chance of keeping players that tried it. But now it has a much better chance.

 

The market prefers the current model in place except for a few notable exceptions in the market. That doesn't mean this model is perfect, nor does it mean it doesn't need to improve and change a few things, but overall the game is MUCH more appealing to a wider audience than it was at launch.

 

The flaws the game had (and still has to some extent) are not as prevalent since the addition of casual friendly features.

 

This is just MY slant, which of course means next to nothing.

 

Going F2P has definitely helped the game across the board, especially when it comes to new players and their retention. The problems the game had prior to F2P weren't because it was too hardcore though, BW just couldn't deliver compelling content quickly enough to keep players around. That and public opinion mercilessly beat it with a stick. I'm not sure I'd agree that the Cartel Shop has made things more casual as opposed to more convenient, but that could just be chalked up to semantics. Prior to these last few updates I feel players, both casual and hardcore, were embracing the F2P transition a lot more than people are now saying. But 2.1 and 2.2 were incredibly underwhelming, especially for subscribers. We wouldn't be having any of these conversations right now if they'd just have made Treek obtainable like HK-51, but apparently that didn't make enough CC.

 

We're at a point where I'd expect people to be ticked off considering the last few content updates, and I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing one's opinion at the direction of the game. If BW had listened initially perhaps the game wouldn't have derailed itself. I fully expect it to calm down once 2.3 hits though. ((Note this last part isn't really directed at you, Artemis. I know you don't have a problem with opinions.))

[CaptRavenous]

So, here we are, playing a MMO. Star Wars, the Old Republic, actually. It's actually free to play, but we subscribed, because we want full access to the game, right?

 

See, the problem I have is that for any other game, we wouldn't expect to receive rewards just for buying it. The reward would be the game itself. If we bought Halo 4, we expect to be able to play... Halo 4. There aren't any special discounts for being a long time Halo fan. There aren't any random in game drops that are like "Hey, you're awesome, just like everyone else who bought this game! Enjoy a rocket launcher for the next couple of stages!"

 

We bought the game so that we could play it. Yet we demand that we be given extra for doing exactly what we do with every other game. You paid to have fun, to enjoy the storyline, to have a good time with the other players. And instead of just one storyline and character, we have at least 8, which split into further playstyles. This game has an incredible replay value for the $15 we paid for a month of subscribing - it would be the rough equivalent of, say, Halo 4 for $15? That's if you only stuck to one character, when there are many many different possibilities, as I just said.

 

Then we go and hate on Bioware as a whole for displeasing us over one little thing! Bioware, the same company that made Mass Effect, for Emperor's sake. Yes, the ending was bad but was the ride there not spectacular? Let's not even talk about KOTOR the original, or Baldur's Gate, or any number of the great titles they've put out.

 

 

 

My point is, Bioware and this game aren't perfect, but I really, really feel like I've spent my money well on this game. I enjoy the time I spend with my guildmates, or questing, or dominating the GTN, or whatever. Getting upset over Treek, or the Sub appreciation thing not being 'good enough' (when they didn't even need to do it in the first place), or whatever other excuse people use to get mad - it just doesn't work for me. I'd rather be playing The Old Republic with a smile on my face than complaining about the few flaws that it has.

 

... and that's all I have to say about that

 

This post is rich in Irony.

[discbox]

You compare totaly different games and paymet models of games. I don't get the point of that.

[Nemmar]

I agree. The whinning is uncanny.

 

I also read an article on torwars about someone who hated the double XP weekends because it made them advance too fast.

I mean... cmon its just the odd weekend. If you dont like it, take a break for those days, but dont be a miserable person and try to impede everyone else's fun.

 

Treek is the same thing. I have one million credits and legacy 50 and you know what? I am gonna buy Treek with my stipend on cartel coins, because i would rather save my hard earned credits for other stuff.

Yes, it is great to have the option. Stop whinning already!

 

Whine if there is some P2W stuff on the shop. At that point i will support the cause.

Heck i will support whinning cause Bioware dosnt give us enough information on where the game in headed in the future.

But small things? Things that are optional? That angers me towards you. You do not have the right to dictate how this game is gonna play for every other player. That is just selfish. You arent the only ones that pay for this game.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Nemmar

[GusPorterhouse]

What you and the OP are really not getting is that it's possible to be critical of the game and not want it to fail. Some of the criticism is constructive, some not, but everyone complaining does it because they want the game to be better, to continue being fun, to become more fun, and for them to have more reasons to log in. I doubt anyone on these forums, no matter how disappointed in the game/BW/EA, wants it to tank unless they're writing some "SUB CANCELED GUYS" post.

 

I have absolutely NO problem with honest and legitimate criticism, constructive or otherwise, angry or otherwise. That's not what I'm talking about. Not everyone complaining is doing so because of the reasons you have listed, or for any other valid reason other than a lot of people just like to complain about anything they can to anyone that will listen.

 

I would say that I'm sorry you don't see it, but I'm actually glad for you that you don't see it, because I wish I didn't.

[SithKoriandr]

So, here we are, playing a MMO. Star Wars, the Old Republic, actually. It's actually free to play, but we subscribed, because we want full access to the game, right?

 

See, the problem I have is that for any other game, we wouldn't expect to receive rewards just for buying it. The reward would be the game itself. If we bought Halo 4, we expect to be able to play... Halo 4. There aren't any special discounts for being a long time Halo fan. There aren't any random in game drops that are like "Hey, you're awesome, just like everyone else who bought this game! Enjoy a rocket launcher for the next couple of stages!"

 

We bought the game so that we could play it. Yet we demand that we be given extra for doing exactly what we do with every other game. You paid to have fun, to enjoy the storyline, to have a good time with the other players. And instead of just one storyline and character, we have at least 8, which split into further playstyles. This game has an incredible replay value for the $15 we paid for a month of subscribing - it would be the rough equivalent of, say, Halo 4 for $15? That's if you only stuck to one character, when there are many many different possibilities, as I just said.

 

Then we go and hate on Bioware as a whole for displeasing us over one little thing! Bioware, the same company that made Mass Effect, for Emperor's sake. Yes, the ending was bad but was the ride there not spectacular? Let's not even talk about KOTOR the original, or Baldur's Gate, or any number of the great titles they've put out.

 

 

 

My point is, Bioware and this game aren't perfect, but I really, really feel like I've spent my money well on this game. I enjoy the time I spend with my guildmates, or questing, or dominating the GTN, or whatever. Getting upset over Treek, or the Sub appreciation thing not being 'good enough' (when they didn't even need to do it in the first place), or whatever other excuse people use to get mad - it just doesn't work for me. I'd rather be playing The Old Republic with a smile on my face than complaining about the few flaws that it has.

 

... and that's all I have to say about that

 

Actually. You're wrong. So very very wrong. So wrong, it's silly just how wrong you are.

 

People bought the game and subbed to it under the impression of all P2P MMOs. Paying the sub for updates and additional content as time goes by.

 

TOR sold itself on having different storylines.

 

Now, you have subs going "***?" because their sub isn't paying for any of that. It's paying not to have less content than they started with. Basically going F2P screwed over the subs, because all that content they would've had before being paid by their sub fee is now considered not to be enough, and just enough to not have options removed, and have to pay for every little additional thing.

 

Remember those individual class stories they hyped up and made a big deal out of as being the reason to play TOR? Yeah. They stopped them. It's all about group stories now! You know, planet quests.

 

But things change? Out of BW/EA's control? Well...I don't know about that, but doubtful they had to go F2P. It was likely more along the lines of "We can make more money if we do this!" Which I have no problem with, but it totally screwed over the subs.

 

And Makeb? I've seen bigger updates than Makeb, and they weren't called expansions. But I'm willing to go with it.

 

Still, they could've given that to the subs as an update and charged F2Pers for it. Put some costumes on the market while others are obtainable in game.

 

Though have to ask, have you never played an MMO before TOR? You know, those other P2P games that you get additional content just by subbing?

[SkunkWerks]

Remember those individual class stories they hyped up and made a big deal out of as being the reason to play TOR? Yeah. They stopped them. It's all about group stories now! You know, planet quests.

 

I remember that writing eight different storylines as well as the quests and other content to back them up is kinda unrealistic in the wake of the budget crisis the sudden bleed out of subscriptions caused.

 

Not saying I like the change- I'd like as much any anyone to see the return of unique class content. But I understand why it happened, and it definitely wasn't "to screw over subscribers".

[JymmyMorison]

I dont agree with you the game quality is not high enough because of the buged engine(unstable in pvp / everywhere with more than 12 ppl on screen)

[SithKoriandr]

I remember that writing eight different storylines as well as the quests and other content to back them up is kinda unrealistic in the wake of the budget crisis the sudden bleed out of subscriptions caused.

 

Not saying I like the change- I'd like as much any anyone to see the return of unique class content. But I understand why it happened, and it definitely wasn't "to screw over subscribers".

 

I understand it too. Still, for F2P being so profitable, how is it not possible? If F2P is as profitable as they let on, one would think difficulty is just a matter of time, as budget crisis adverted.

 

And if the game didn't bleed subs, does that mean they wouldn't have been able to stay strictly P2P and offer continued class storylines like they stated in the beginning?

[SwoopingLion]

I understand it too. Still, for F2P being so profitable, how is it not possible? If F2P is as profitable as they let on, one would think difficulty is just a matter of time, as budget crisis adverted.

 

And if the game didn't bleed subs, does that mean they wouldn't have been able to stay strictly P2P and offer continued class storylines like they stated in the beginning?

 

To be fair to BW (this is a huge benefit of the doubt though) you could be entirely right here. RotHC was a small "expansion" at best. Perhaps a later expansion will include continued class story lines. Assuming F2P is as profitable as they say and there is no crisis then as you say it is just a matter of time and by all accounts doing 8 different stories complete with voice acting for all the conversation options (those that aren't ctrl c/v) will take quite a while.

 

I very much doubt it's going to be as simple as that, perhaps they vastly underestimated how costly and time consuming it would be to keep an 8 story-story driven MMO going...

[DarthEccen]

See, the problem I have is that for any other game, we wouldn't expect to receive rewards just for buying it. The reward would be the game itself. If we bought Halo 4, we expect to be able to play... Halo 4. There aren't any special discounts for being a long time Halo fan. There aren't any random in game drops that are like "Hey, you're awesome, just like everyone else who bought this game! Enjoy a rocket launcher for the next couple of stages!"

 

 

While I agree that people asking for special discounts just because they play the game and are subscribed stinks of a sense of self-entitlement, I thought I'd play devil's advocate for a second and point out that your analogy doesn't really hold.

 

You're right. If we bought Halo, we would expect to be able to play Halo 4. There aren't any special discounts for being a long time Halo fan. There aren't any random in-game drops that are like "Hey, you're awesome, just like everyone else who bought this game! Enjoy a rocket launcher for the next couple of stages!" The thing about that is, though, you don't subscribe to play Halo 4. You just buy it (or "license" it), and its yours.

 

A better analogy to Bioware's subscription service would be that of Xbox Live or Playstation Plus. You pay a subscription service to have full or extra service-- same as SWTOR, right? And you also occasionally get free games, early beta access, and other cheap/free cosmetic ********... Point is, many other subscription services do provide extra stuff simply because you happen to be subscribed to it. Although, on the flip side, I think people harp on Bioware way too much about problems or lack of bug fixes or content way too much, so personally, and quite frankly, I still think people should just shut the hell up most of the time.

[LordArtemis]

Nothing in TOR has ever been casual unfriendly. It is and always has been extremely casual friendly.

 

They have added and modified a lot of cool stuff, my personal favorite being the adaptive armor concept.

 

They haven't, however, changed much of anything in the non-endgame PvE game since launch. This is pretty much unheard of in the MMO world, as every other MMO I've ever played has made massive changes in their first couple of years, the highly successful ones as well as the highly underperforming ones.

 

The game launched without a functional GTN, no group finder, class locked gear, no legacy system, no achievements, no guild perks, costly repairs, comms locked to planets, faulty respec, etc.

 

The dev team made it perfectly clear that they did not want to allow cross class gear and wanted to support group play and visual gear progression...three things very unfriendly to casual players.

 

Once the storylines ran out there was little remaining to appeal to casual players.

 

Just adding cross class adaptable gear, the market and post creation appearance change was a huge boon to casuals. The 180 on visual gear progression was a HUGE change IMO.

 

Just my opinion mind you.