Domino Effect and the Pyrotech

[Brunner_Venda]

We get it. You played with bad PT's. Now show us where the bad PT touched you.

 

I just hope it doesn't take a year for PT to be fixed to the point of being viable again.

 

PT pyros are rare enough as it is, and they still depend on wearing merc eliminator PVP gear FFS.

[Zoom_VI]

This has nothing to do with anything but powertech damage.

 

Health went up about 50%, some healing specs got their resource problems fixed, operatives got a roll (which can't be slowed at the start of the game when it is most beneficial) and sorcs got a 10s invincibility bubble. Tanks also got extra mitigation from improved shielding mechanics. All of these benefit healers and healing.

 

Comparitively, the dps classes didn't get more dps, in fact much dps was nerfed when crit was reduced. And none of the classes got extra dps. Assuming all these classes specced into dps, snipers got mobility, ops got mobility, juggs got more defense, marauders got a ranged aoe throw (which doesn't increase their primary dps rotation at all in any of their specs), sins got mobility, sorcs got defense, mercs and pts got mobility (and mercs got a net). The reworking of most trees didn't really buff anyone's damage save for a few rare and specific scenarios which mostly don't apply to rated play, and merc net won't keep up with all the other healing buffs.

 

It's not pyro nerfs that caused healing to perform better, it's the massive sweeping survivability and healing buffs.

 

Shields got buffed but BW also nerfed the crap outta sheild rating, absorb, defense and armor. My van pre 2.0 was 52%, 51%, 20%, 45% and now post 2.0 in conq gear is at 33%, 34%, 13%, 40%. So the mechanic change was negated by stat nerf.

 

Dps didn't get a boost..ummm what?

Most non dot specs can put up 7k hits now something that only smasher could do pre 2.0. Sustained dps parses went up by 1k damage per second. The crit nerf was offset by the massive increase in bonus damage

[BoushhDC]

im pretty sure you're trolling now. nobody could be dumb enough to think pts played like an aoe class or purposely ignored a healer just because they were an op or because they were further away from other players. nobody could be that stupid

 

You misunderstand me, but perhaps I should have risked redundancy for purposes of clarity. The AOE reference was in the immediate context of the AOE stun (carbonizing followed by aoe flames -- flame thrower, or flame sweep?). It seems to be their favorite trick since I see it multiple times from each Pyro in each WZ. The main tactics that I observe personally, is that they seem to prioritize their targets in a certain order in which they can inflict the most carnage. I never said they don't go after a healer, but they will prioritize in which order. Sage healers & Commando healers top the list. I'm not sure why you find that statement about my observations so upsetting.

 

In terms of my own experience on my sawbones, my personal tactics are to stay out of clumps of players (to minimize exposure to AOEs such as smashes, carbonize->flames, force storms made worse by being caught in carbonization, etc, etc), create LOS issues (Sorcs seem more apt to let it all hang out in the open. lol), and I use mobility/elusiveness/CCs as defensive tools. As a result, Pyro's almost never pay me attention for any length of time, but it's rather the Assassins that tend to be the relentless pursuers. You might think I play against bad Pyro's but does it not occur to you that maybe you played against bad Op/Scoundrel healers, if they didn't manage to minimize your solo effectiveness? Again, don't shoot the messenger.

 

In the context of this thread, I agree with Legatus' statement:

 

It's not pyro nerfs that caused healing to perform better, it's the massive sweeping survivability and healing buffs.

Edited July 5, 2013 by BoushhDC

[Dafydil]

Pyro Powertechs did not need a nerf with everyother AC being buffed now with all the whiners are complaining about heals being OP its only a matter of time until a healing nerf *Sigh*

[BoushhDC]

Pyro Powertechs did not need a nerf with everyother AC being buffed now with all the whiners are complaining about heals being OP its only a matter of time until a healing nerf *Sigh*

 

Apparently that guy Metrics disagreed with you. Maybe he thought the average 50% WZ representation was an indicator. What surprises me though, was that there were never that many Vanguards indicating that maybe it was just the "coolness factor" of the PT animations/BH lore, that lead to the comparative overpopulation? Dunno.

Edited July 4, 2013 by BoushhDC

[KhalDrogoe]

Bottom line, keep powertechs nerfed, buff mercenaries Pyro

[Brunner_Venda]

Bottom line, keep powertechs nerfed, buff mercenaries Pyro

 

Or you know, they could fix both pyro specs and be fair. Retard.

 

And yes, BH is all 'coolness' of the class, lore, and animations.

 

If it were about how effective the class is, we would all roll sniper.

[foxmob]

isnt watchman dot based? any healer with half a brain will just cleanse those dots.....

 

it's a solo hero spec. and it was quite good as such. back in the hey day, it wasn't much more than a waste of a rated slot though. I mean...combat would do hella dmg. arguably easier to play. and ooooo that transcendence buff. mind you, this was before every class had a speed buff or two and 3 ways to break snares/roots. so give all of that, I'd take two combats trading trans on every map in the game over a watchman. but man oh man. did watchman ever tear up regs.

[skarlson]

AP needed it more than you. Sustained DPS specs like AP need more sustained defense to put it out. I agree that you're flat out broken after the nerfs as pyro, but if you got to keep your burst, losing the shield doesn't mean too much. A good defense is a good offense.

 

EDIT: Also carnage. Carnage is now a lot harder to play. I'm thinking scream should be hitting harder than force smash. One's AOE, free, and can be used every 7-8 seconds, the other is single target, costs 2 rage, and can only be used every 9 seconds. If single target burst came back then we'd all be gooood

 

Welcome to Sorcerer arguments for the last year. TB is still weaker than an insta AOE spell and it requires a 2s cast time. The good news is Carnage belongs to the warrior class so there is a 50/50 chance they may actually listen.

[TonyDragonflame]

Bottom line, keep powertechs nerfed, buff mercenaries Pyro

 

Bottom line, nerf mercs arsenal

[kweassa]

.. blah blah blah blah healer OP blah blah blah whine disguised as suggestion/idea blah blah I want my pyro back to facerolling OPness blah blah...

 

Here's the story. Any "oooh buff my class so I can roflstomp healers easy" idea, is simply the same thing as "since my class can roflstomp a well guarded/protected/crosshealed/peeled healers for lulz, I'll do the same to any other class in the game but in a lot shorter time".

 

So no, we don't need some one class being the "EZ-mode healer killer". If you have a problem with healers that are guarded, protected, peeled and crosshealed, then effectively the objective of killing the healer implies you need to fight the enemy on the team-scale. To guard him takes a tank, to peel takes at least one DPS, to cross-heal a second heaelr. When you're fighting a healer, you're fighting against 4 people. You need at least that much people working in coordination to bring him down.

Edited July 9, 2013 by kweassa

[JP_Legatus]

Shields got buffed but BW also nerfed the crap outta sheild rating, absorb, defense and armor. My van pre 2.0 was 52%, 51%, 20%, 45% and now post 2.0 in conq gear is at 33%, 34%, 13%, 40%. So the mechanic change was negated by stat nerf.

 

Dps didn't get a boost..ummm what?

Most non dot specs can put up 7k hits now something that only smasher could do pre 2.0. Sustained dps parses went up by 1k damage per second. The crit nerf was offset by the massive increase in bonus damage

 

I had a 9k recorded maul (2nd on charts) before 2.0 dropped and the biggest smash prior to then was 13k, a documented fact which should be on one of the old record threads. The current biggest hit is 14k and my current biggest maul iirc is 10k (current maul record). So yeah it didn't go up by much. Dps record was 1700, now it is 2600, a number which is only inflated by people never dying allowing smash monkeys to run wild. Meanwhile healing is reaching nearly 5m in long games, nearly triple the old records. And the biggest heal which used to be pretty low is now 13k. Those are all just documented facts.

 

And the crit nerf may have offset the shield/absorb/etc nerfs vs tanks but it sure didn't change anything on attacks vs healers or dps specs, which is the primary targets for dps until the other team is wiping.

 

So yes, the conclusion is that dps didn't change much (tiny increase) and healing and survivability got massive sweeping buffs.

Edited July 10, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[SOULCASTER]

Pyrotech/Assault was OP for a VERY long time, and there is a reason that it got hit in the face with the nerf bat. That said however, the changes to other classes with 2.0 should have come out FIRST, BEFORE any changes to pyro/assault were made. As I feel pre-2.0 pyro/assault would be very ideal in these post 2.0 healer intensive warzone matches.

 

Thermal Detonator is a complete joke now. The CGC nerf was kind of a bit over the top too, though with the 30% crit multiplier to ion pulse/flame burst taken away from the middle tree and given to assault/pyro, i can see why they did that change. Thermal Det though needs to be put back to the way it was. Get rid of that "1200 elemental damage over 30 seconds!" bull crap.

[MidichIorian]

Pretty much every recent change has indirectly affected healers in a positive way for the healer. HP went up 2/3 while many burst attacks only got a 1/5-1/4boost, some got nerfed. CC has been nerfed in steps for consulars/inqs/BH'es/Troopers etc etc. So less burst in relation to HP and less crowd control. Add to this the margin of error in normal warzones, even when WW was instant, the stun had a 30 meter range etc the risk was always overwhelming that some random pug would screw it up. Who the hell wants to spend 1,5 secs casting CC just so that a random knockback can break it 0.0001 secs later. Or having to move toward the target for a stun just so that your intended target might stun you instead...and the most common target doesnt just stun for 4 s. Having to stand through 8 secs while they heal back to 100 % is getting old. Edited July 10, 2013 by MidichIorian

[Brunner_Venda]

If you want to fix pyro:

 

Fix Automated Defenses. Give it a small heal proc when a DOT tick crits. Otherwise the ability is useless, since we have no other spec defensive CD.

 

Fix kolto overload to work up to 50% health. It currently only heals you below 30% and stops, leaving you in everyone's 'execute ability' or 'one smash' range. It's a. 'Press this key and die anyways' button.

 

Incendiary missile should not cost 24 heat. Fix it. Really. Why is this so hard? Want to make me a DOT class? Let me apply my DOTS without overheating.

 

Rail shot should get a little bit of its armor pen back in the 'power bracer' skill, and TD should get some of its up front damage back. Why? All of the top tier pyro abilities need fixing, because they are consistently outperformed in every way by hybrid specs (PVE parses and PVP). Think about that, the top tier pyro abilities are so bad, they are outclassed by just about any of the low tier abilities of other trees. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

Look - I can accept being a quasi-melee range DOT DPS spec, but hand me some survivability to go with it. The spec has nothing other than the default class defensive CD's, and that 's terribad. We usually die before all of our DOTS are applied, and if we do live that long, we die before the DOTS burn.

 

Yeah we needed a nerf, but where we are now is ridiculous.

[Selout]

Well, I am no longer hopeful for the PvP in this game. I don't see how a small company can allow such a disparity between the healers. Literally every rated match is 2-3 op/scound heals vs each other. If we happen to run against one of the two other heals, we roll right over them. So boring and stale. Zero variety = dead pvp scene. Taking way too long to address obvious imbalance... might as well call Ghostcrawler for some balance advise while you are at it.

 

Not to spread rumors but I was told that the lead dev in charge of class balance mains an Operative... I hope this isn't the case cuz that would just be pathetic.

[BanetheDarkLord]

Here's the story. Any "oooh buff my class so I can roflstomp healers easy" idea, is simply the same thing as "since my class can roflstomp a well guarded/protected/crosshealed/peeled healers for lulz, I'll do the same to any other class in the game but in a lot shorter time".

 

So no, we don't need some one class being the "EZ-mode healer killer". If you have a problem with healers that are guarded, protected, peeled and crosshealed, then effectively the objective of killing the healer implies you need to fight the enemy on the team-scale. To guard him takes a tank, to peel takes at least one DPS, to cross-heal a second heaelr. When you're fighting a healer, you're fighting against 4 people. You need at least that much people working in coordination to bring him down.

 

Easily can tell you didn't really READ what I had to say. One of the first things I pointed out was that I DON'T THINK Ops/Scouns are OP and NO I don't want any easy mode class, I enjoy challenges. For the longest time before 2.0 I played AdvProto as my PT back when it took 5 stacks to use Proto-Flame Thrower. Fun spec, but Pyro was just too good to ignore at that time. Now I'm back to AdvProto and enjoying it a lot more.

 

I'm not whining and crying to have them change it back, I'm just bringing up the discussion what would our WZs look like if Pyrotech didn't get the CGC and TD nerf. Reading more of the replies to this discussion (which BTW, this discussion has gone great so far with very little QQ or Flaming) it's obvious that DPS in total is a little behind which does force the DPSers to focus more as a team to bring competent healers/tanks down. Although even with top teams going at it in WZs with well coordinated DPS focus, there are more stalemates these days than ever before.

[foxmob]

I'm not whining and crying to have them change it back, I'm just bringing up the discussion what would our WZs look like if Pyrotech didn't get the CGC and TD nerf. Reading more of the replies to this discussion (which BTW, this discussion has gone great so far with very little QQ or Flaming) it's obvious that DPS in total is a little behind which does force the DPSers to focus more as a team to bring competent healers/tanks down. Although even with top teams going at it in WZs with well coordinated DPS focus, there are more stalemates these days than ever before.

I know this will irk a lot of top tier or pvp purists, but what's going on in top lvl rated is relatively inconsequential. rated matches between good teams have ALWAYS bordered on monotonous stalemates/draws, etc. whether it's getting stuck on the first vstar door, a stalemate mid in CW, a prolonged, drawn out stalemate at mid in NC, stalemates mid in AHG where maybe 2 ppl die per round, or goal trading in hb.

 

the real sign that there's a problem is when the same stalemates occur regularly in REGULAR WZs. the reason is simple: you'd expect top tier players to maximize their potential, be difficult to cap, etc. that SHOULD NOT be the case in reg WZs where there is a much wider variety of skill in the same match.

 

the fact that any old tank and any couple of healers can sustain a prolonged battle for mid in CW/NC is a problem.

[Ottoattack]

There's no heavy armor class in the game that has any over the top burst (it wouldn't be fair!). The only one that comes closer to that (shien), is 4m range and has clear drawbacks. Commandos/Mercs were just resurrected, but they will be brought in line soon enough (they're just getting a break for now, in retribution for all these months of suck) .

 

I hate to break your bubble, but both rage Jugg, rage marauder, carnage marauder and deception sins have higher armor rating (after you factor in skills) than PT and all have extremely high burst with little to no drawbacks beside being full melee classes, which doesn't really matter much because they have superior gap closers. I may also add that the extra 10% damage reduction as heavy armor does not mean jack, considering that light armor classes like sorc have a bubble on demand that sucks 6-7K. Or medium armor snipers with their defensive and battle control capabilities.

 

This heavy armor argument is moot. PT has lowest survivability among all dps classes, the compensating factor was burst damage. Basically glass cannon. Know PT as dps is just glass.

[BoushhDC]

...There's no heavy armor class in the game that has any over the top burst (it wouldn't be fair!). The only one that comes closer to that (shien), is 4m range and has clear drawbacks. Commandos/Mercs were just resurrected, but they will be brought in line soon enough (they're just getting a break for now, in retribution for all these months of suck) ....

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about Commando/Mercs "will be brought in line soon enough...." Basically, they were the universally acknowledged "free kill" class, and it didn't last "months" but over a year. BW felt that there was nothing wrong with how much their damage had been nerfed (their burst underwent a series of nerfs, again, going back over a year ago). What BW felt was that their "escapability" needed addressing.

 

Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

The majority of the changes they made in 2.0 went directly into a suvivability formula. What I mean by "formula" is that taken individually, each minor change (note they still managed to work in a nerf to one extremely small, traited defensive ability - 4m KB attached to Stockstrike) would not have added *anything* to their survivability whatsoever, but together, you add a little here, a little there, an escape to let them help themselves, etc. So Commando didn't get their damage ability resurrected at all. If they are doing more damage in a WZ it's because they are alive more than the average 3 seconds of an initial encounter like they were forever prior to 2.0. Welcome to your future: not return of damage, but given some other (maybe what you might consider less desirable) "tools" to address a deficiency other than damage production.

Edited July 10, 2013 by BoushhDC

[TheOneWag]

Tactics / AP is fine. It plays methodically. Use your Rocket for executing people, not for getting them low. A fully charged Pulse Cannon / Flamethrower can do quite a bit of damage, and the guarenteed crit HiB / Rail after melee is very good.

 

Pyro / Assault - doesn't do enough with CGC or elemental / dot damage to compete with the extra energy regen you're going to have on the High Energy Cell in Tactics. That HE regen doesn't always have to equal straight into damage either - it's just extremely useful to have passive recovery when you're sc****** the bottom. If Pyro had tighter energy management but put out more damage / burst, I could see it being worth the tradeoff. Sadly it doesn't and therefore it's not.

 

Great fix for TD would be to put TD / Plastique on a longer CD and just make it AOE like Sticky / Tracer - something, ANYTHING to make it actually somewhat dangerous and not laughable. Also a talent where popping Spare Cell (CD to make next attack free) also gave 100% crit on the next activated ability to compete with AP / Tactics, where your HiBs / Rails will always be coming after Punch / SS for 100% crit.

[foxmob]

Tactics / AP is fine. It plays methodically. Use your Rocket for executing people, not for getting them low. A fully charged Pulse Cannon / Flamethrower can do quite a bit of damage, and the guarenteed crit HiB / Rail after melee is very good..

 

I enjoy playing AP, and I am still improving. however, I do far more dmg on my assault vg (FULL assault at that -- I take TD, which is the consensus weaker build). a fully buffed AP flame thrower is very difficult to complete, because you almost have to be white barred to get it off. (and yes, I pop htl with it whenever possible). people just aren't fooled by it anymore. it's like a ravage. pop your "soft" breaker and run or stun the guy. easiest thing to avoid in the game.

 

it has a little better survivability (especially if you spec into the first tier shield tree dmg debuff), but at the end of the day, it's a schizophrenic spec: part of it wants to work toward a buffed hib. part of it wants to work toward a buffed pulse cannon. part of it wants to take advantage of that new shoulder cannon. problem? the two big lines of focus (hib & pulse cannon) don't have any synergy with each other. shoulder cannon operates independently of both as well, but it's a supplementary kind of abil anyway. so that's not a big detractor.

 

iunno. that's my experience with it.

[Seengularity]

I hate to break your bubble, but both rage Jugg, rage marauder, carnage marauder and deception sins have higher armor rating (after you factor in skills) than PT and all have extremely high burst with little to no drawbacks beside being full melee classes, which doesn't really matter much because they have superior gap closers. I may also add that the extra 10% damage reduction as heavy armor does not mean jack, considering that light armor classes like sorc have a bubble on demand that sucks 6-7K. Or medium armor snipers with their defensive and battle control capabilities.

 

This heavy armor argument is moot. PT has lowest survivability among all dps classes, the compensating factor was burst damage. Basically glass cannon. Know PT as dps is just glass.

 

BH:

"A thorough professional, the Bounty Hunter trains mind and body for every possible job. Blasters, flamethrowers, missiles, energy shields, jetpack and the best armor money can buy-the name of the game is preparation and versatility. Artisans spend months and even years hand-crafting the Bounty Hunters' heavy armor to ensure it offers superior resistance to all manner of weaponry, and that each suit will still allow maximum flexibility and versatility"

 

I don't feel you broke any bubbles here. Anyway: If you really think the extra 10% dmg redux from heavyarm means jack and sins and maras have higher armor rating than your PT (flat out lie, even after "factoring skills"), you should NOT play any heavy armor classes period. In fact, you should not play a game where such disparities are allowed.

 

Like I said before, top of the line PTs in the Bastion are STILL wrecking people (why you cannot?)... and they're tough to take down. It's just about players longing for pre 2.0 ez mode to be given back ( ). Clearly, it takes more preparation and brains to succeed with PT in Ver. 2.0+... They now need to coordinate with the other 7 players in the team and use your CDs at the precise time. I cannot help there.

 

In PTs defense: I do think there's discrepancies between Merc vs. BH right now. I feel Mercs are better; good CDs, very good burst, healz, very sturdy ofc and the stinking E-Net to boot. I think Merc's burst needs dialed down a bit and PT needs a small percentage of its former burst restored (say, make the shoulder cannons hit a bit harder, make RS ignore a bit more armor/hit a bit harder). W/e.

 

As far as any "Domino effect and the Pyrotech" (with regards to healing) I say --> "Pfffttt". Legatus made compelling arguments to put things in perspective, as did a couple other posters.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Seengularity

[BoushhDC]

...Mercs ...and the stinking E-Net...

 

LOL. Electro Net is the single most brilliant mechanic BW has ever produced in that if you die to it, it is literally your own fault. A true PvP'er will at least research a class if not roll it themselves to discover its ins and outs. I have never died to E-net (not even close) but I have watched Mercs murder themselves under the effects of that of an opponent's on 19 out of every 20 occasions and they HAVE NO EXCUSE!

Edited July 11, 2013 by BoushhDC

[Brunner_Venda]

Tactics / AP is fine. It plays methodically. Use your Rocket for executing people, not for getting them low. A fully charged Pulse Cannon / Flamethrower can do quite a bit of damage, and the guarenteed crit HiB / Rail after melee is very good.

t.

 

How is AP fine?

 

The two biggest hitting abilities are on 15 second cooldowns (rail and immolate).

 

Neither of them ever exceeds 5.5K. Show me all of your 6K warzobe damage medals! Oh that's right, you rarely ever get them. Pyro spec does in every rotation let alone every match.

 

Proto Flame thrower does what, about 9K if you manage to catch someone who doesn't just CC you or leap right out? It's a three second channeled cone AOE cast. Do the math. You do better with two flame bursts that crit with explosive fuel.

 

You get seven shoulder cannon rockets, but the cooldown is what, two minutes with loading time? How the hell do you fit that into a standard rotation? Should you be happy that one of AP's top tier skills (proto loaders) is dedicated to something you can use once every couple of minutes? And you get what? Three extra rockets for it?

 

AP is my favorite spec. It's mobile. The defenses are great with energy rebounder and reinforced armor. You take about 2/3rds damage from smash. AP just doesn't perform as well as a DPS class should when it comes to doing damage in a PVP environment.

 

/fix AP