The REAL Most Powerful Jedi

[LadyKulvax]

Actually we know that yoda is a better duelist then him he beats him in duels all the time so no he isn't the number 1 duelist in the order that goes to yoda. I am argueing semantics because you are saying Second Greatest Jedi is not equal to Second Most powerful its a different choice of words but mean the same thing its semantics.

 

"Wars not make one great."

 

Yoda, Dooku and Jinn(in his prime) were the only ones said to be able to outspar him.

 

He owned Dooku in the Clone Wars, whereas Yoda and Dooku seemed matched during AOTC and he defeated Sidious in lightsaber combat, something Yoda couldn't do.

 

Windu is clearly superior in actual engagements where lightsabers come in.

Edited July 2, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

"Wars not make one great."

 

Yoda, Dooku and Jinn(in his prime) were the only ones said to be able to outspar him.

 

He owned Dooku in the Clone Wars, whereas Yoda and Dooku seemed matched during AOTC and he defeated Sidious in lightsaber combat, something Yoda couldn't do.

 

Windu is clearly superior in actual engagements where lightsabers come in.

 

as you can see Yoda is on that list and again we know Yoda was the better duelist to Windu the only thing windu had going for him above yoda in saber duels was Vapaad's amp but Saber to saber no amp Lightside Vs Lightside Yoda was better.

 

So the question becomes if not the second most powerful what makes him the second "greatest" lightsaber dueling alone will not make you a great jedi as you said wars do not make one great... and clearly he isn't the second greatest philosopher of that time for jedi as his philosophies were a little off.

 

 

Finally Lucas was talking mostly about the jedi stacking up to one another in terms of the Clone wars and there ability to fight specifically Palpatine.

 

 

I am actually truly surprised I am even argueing this at all I was figuring this was common knowledge and ultimately ya saying second greatest isn't equal to second most powerful when talking about a statement from Lucas is pure semantics when you take into context its clearly power that he is talking about.

[LadyKulvax]

The theory that Yoda was better in lightsaber combat is disproved due to ACTUAL live engagements, Yoda was only drawing in his engagement with Count Dooku, Mace Windu absolutely owned Dooku and this was NOT using Vaapad, he instead used Djem-So, knowing of Makashi's inabilities for using and defending against kinetic power, also Yoda couldn't stack up against Darth Sidious, yet Mace Windu defeated him handily.

 

You can have all the training spars you like, it is not reflective of what things would be like in live action battles.

 

Also you keep claiming semantics, yet also assume that when he says greatest = most powerful then okay let's say he did refer to Windu as second most powerful, how do we know he is referring to pure power in the Force and not his considerably great lightsaber prowess?

Edited July 2, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

The theory that Yoda was better in lightsaber combat is disproved due to ACTUAL live engagements, Yoda was only drawing in his engagement with Count Dooku, Mace Windu absolutely owned Dooku and this was NOT using Vaapad, he instead used Djem-So, knowing of Makashi's inabilities for using and defending against kinetic power, also Yoda couldn't stack up against Darth Sidious, yet Mace Windu defeated him handily.

 

You can have all the training spars you like, it is not reflective of what things would be like in live action battles.

 

Also you keep claiming semantics, yet also assume that when he says greatest = most powerful then okay let's say he did refer to Windu as second most powerful, how do we know he is referring to pure power in the Force and not his considerably great lightsaber prowess?

 

And Yoda was using Ataru Something Dooku was known for having a great affinity for fighting against that doesn't make Yoda any less of the skilled again this I am pretty sure was confirmed also..... when did Sidious and Yoda have a pure lightsaber duel last I checked Sidious was pretty quick to move it to a more confined space to drop yoda's mobility and it was mostly a force fight by the end they didn't really have a pure lightsaber duel so comparing Windu using a form Dooku's form is weak against Vs Yoda using a form that Dooku's form is strong against is poor example the sidious comparison is also a bad example.

 

Again the last we just need to know Lucas's context really when he was talking about this he also called Yoda the greatest jedi of the order now lets think what did that entail force power and lightsaber combat...... so wouldn't you think the same thing would also be entailed by saying windu as the second greatest jedi... I would.

 

OK so Yoda= Greatest jedi of prequel means most powerful and best duelist

Windu= Second greatest jedi of prequel means....... good duelist.... no we use the same formula from one that is called greatest as a measuring stick for the meaning of second greatest. If greatest means best saber duelist and most powerful then second greatest means second best duelist AND second most powerful.

[LadyKulvax]

I actually decided to look it up, he doesn't say anything like second greatest or second most powerful.

 

He actually says he's only second to Yoda on the Jedi Council.

[tunewalker]

I actually decided to look it up, he doesn't say anything like second greatest or second most powerful.

 

He actually says he's only second to Yoda on the Jedi Council.

 

Which could mean all sorts of things really easiest though would be to take that at face value and that means he was second in command and had nothing to do with power at all. That being said I don't believe that is the only quote ever said by Lucas in the matter i will look it up

[LadyKulvax]

Which could mean all sorts of things really easiest though would be to take that at face value and that means he was second in command and had nothing to do with power at all. That being said I don't believe that is the only quote ever said by Lucas in the matter i will look it up

 

I agree, he's probably said other things on it, but that was the only one I could find.

[tunewalker]

I agree, he's probably said other things on it, but that was the only one I could find.

 

Edit: NVM it seems all poppy ****

Edited July 2, 2013 by tunewalker

[Beniboybling]

Sorry I couldn't reply sooner, but I ran into some trouble with my subscription. Anyway, to address a couple of issues.

 

 

1. This is individuals at the height of their power. I'm not prepared to negotiate on that one. The reasons being that it would allow Sith figures like Skywalker, Jacen Solo and Exar Kun to creep onto the list - when really they belong on the Most Powerful Sith list. If we allowed that you'd find the Jedi list becomes very similar to the Sith list. So take it like this, all three lists catalogue who, at the height of their power, was the most powerful Jedi, Sith or Force user. I feel this is only fair.
    
    
   
2. Concerning Windu vs Fay, perhaps a quote could be provided concerning Mace Windu? I can't seem to find anything particularly solid. Context is important too, given that Master Fay died in 22 BBY - when the Clone Wars began - after than Windu would indeed be the second most powerful.
   

[Wolfninjajedi]

To clear up, Windu isn't the best Lightsaber duelist in the JO that is Yoda..

 

=5:28-5:35

 

With a stooped, small appearance, Yoda may not look like a warrior, but his skills with a lightsaber were unequaled.

 

--Taken from Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

 

Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Mace Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

 

--Taken from Darth Maul Shadow Hunter

Edited July 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

To clear up, Windu isn't the best Lightsaber duelist in the JO that is Yoda..

 

=5:28-5:35

 

Actually funny thing with that he doesn't specify lightsaber there either he says haven't seen him fight and only second to yoda this possibly means second in combat to yoda this could be all aspects of combat vs all aspects of combat so second best saber and who knows what else maybe he is better at certain things then yoda but overall yoda is better that seemed an overall combat ability statement so overall combat he is second only to yoda.

 

 

And with the Sam Jackson portion of that interview he often times does refer to himself as the second best in the universe I am under the impression this is how it was how the character was described to him so??? I almost feel that's a bit definitive.

Edited July 2, 2013 by tunewalker

[Wolfninjajedi]

Actually funny thing with that he doesn't specify lightsaber there either he says haven't seen him fight and only second to yoda this possibly means second in combat to yoda this could be all aspects of combat vs all aspects of combat so second best saber and who knows what else maybe he is better at certain things then yoda but overall yoda is better that seemed an overall combat ability statement so overall combat he is second only to yoda.

 

Read my post again, other sources.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[tunewalker]

Read my post again, other sources.

 

Ya I wasn't saying Yoda wasn't the best duelist.... I was saying Windu could also be up there in more then dueling capacity.

[Beniboybling]

I think we should go for Fay to be honest, given the fact that there is no definitive quote stating that Mace Windu was the second most powerful Jedi in the Jedi Order, a title that arguably could be given to Anakin. Whereas Obi-Wan Kenobi, who was been in the presence of both Yoda and Windu, seems to believe Fay to be the most powerful Force user he has ever seen barring Yoda. Unless we have a definitive statement that overrules this, I think we should go with Fay and have Windu a close 6th.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I think we should go for Fay to be honest, given the fact that there is no definitive quote stating that Mace Windu was the second most powerful Jedi in the Jedi Order, a title that arguably could be given to Anakin. Whereas Obi-Wan Kenobi, who was been in the presence of both Yoda and Windu, seems to believe Fay to be the most powerful Force user he has ever seen barring Yoda. Unless we have a definitive statement that overrules this, I think we should go with Fay and have Windu a close 6th.

 

I guess that is fine, though...her one and only appearance doesn't really show her amazing ability.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

I guess that is fine, though...her one and only appearance doesn't really show her amazing ability.

True, but that's not exactly her fault.

 

EDIT: That said her healing capabilities were nothing short of exceptional.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

True, but that's not exactly her fault.

 

Also I thought we were barring character statements here as per your post I recall...

 

However character statements are non-canon so is by no means the be all and end all.

 

 

That said her healing capabilities were nothing short of exceptional.

 

True.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Also I thought we were barring character statements here as per your post I recall...

We are not barring them, but they are not the be all and end all. They should definitely be taken into account, but in the case of Belodorion - well he's not exactly the most reliable source having only (possibly) met one of them. Whereas Obi-Wan is familiar with Fay, Windu and Yoda and has the means to gauge ability.

 

So yeah, they are not unquestionable, but they should be taken into account. Hence why #5 is still up for debate, though I personally feel Fay takes it.

 

P.S. Non-canon is kinda the wrong use of phrasing. They are technically canon. Let's just call them opinions. Though I feel this is less of an opinion and more of a factual observation.

[Wolfninjajedi]

We are not barring them, but they are not the be all and end all. They should definitely be taken into account, but in the case of Belodorion - well he's not exactly the most reliable source having only (possibly) met one of them. Whereas Obi-Wan is familiar with Fay, Windu and Yoda and has the means to gauge ability.

 

So yeah, they are not unquestionable, but they should be taken into account. Hence why #5 is still up for debate, though I personally feel Fay takes it.

 

P.S. Non-canon is kinda the wrong use of phrasing. They are technically canon. Let's just call them opinions. Though I feel this is less of an opinion and more of a factual observation.

 

Alright, though character statements would have more weight, if there was something backing it up. With Fay's only appearance, that is kinda hard. But I suppose she will do fine at 5.

[marcelo_sdk]

True, but that's not exactly her fault.

 

EDIT: That said her healing capabilities were nothing short of exceptional.

 

If we think like this, than we should consider the Hero of Tython, it's not his fault either.

 

But regarding Fay vs. Windu, I believe that Windu could disarm Ventress just using his Force Powers, like Fay did. Yoda has done far more easily than Fay.

[Beniboybling]

If we think like this, than we should consider the Hero of Tython, it's not his fault either.

 

But regarding Fay vs. Windu, I believe that Windu could disarm Ventress just using his Force Powers, like Fay did. Yoda has done far more easily than Fay.

Well we are only discounting the HOT because we don't know anything about him. All I'm saying here is that a display of abilities are unimportant if we possess statements or other means of categorization.

 

But as for your other point, I'm afraid that is not the case. Windu in fact actually engaged Asajj Ventress in a lightsaber duel. Though she was forced to flee Windu certainly did not disarm her using Force powers. Whereas Fay simply rendered her unconscious. I'd say that solidifies her position.

[Aurbere]

All I'm saying here is that a display of abilities are unimportant if we possess statements or other means of categorization.

 

I don't like that idea. Many characters have grandiose statements, but relatively fewer feats.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I don't like that idea. Many characters have grandiose statements, but relatively fewer feats.

 

"I'm out of it for a little while, and everyone gets delusions of grandeur."

Edited July 2, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

I don't like that idea. Many characters have grandiose statements, but relatively fewer feats.

Well of course everything has to be taken into account. I mean its not as if what Fay has done doesn't point to her power. And its not as if the Force sense of Obi-Wan Kenobi is not a reliable source. Like I said in the previous thread there is no blanket means by which Force power can be assessed. But in this case we can't fault Fay simply because she's only appeared in one comic - that doesn't diminish her power in any sense. Edited July 2, 2013 by Beniboybling

[marcelo_sdk]

Well we are only discounting the HOT because we don't know anything about him. All I'm saying here is that a display of abilities are unimportant if we possess statements or other means of categorization.

 

But as for your other point, I'm afraid that is not the case. Windu in fact actually engaged Asajj Ventress in a lightsaber duel. Though she was forced to flee Windu certainly did not disarm her using Force powers. Whereas Fay simply rendered her unconscious. I'd say that solidifies her position.

 

We have the statement of Satele Shan that the HoT surpassed her, that's something to consider.

 

And Windu favored lightsaber combat, as Fay favored Force skills, doesn't mean he couldn't have used the Force. Also, as we know he was very powerful in both, we have no idea of Fay's skill with a lightsaber, and that must be taken ito account.