Combat Logs are coming! Damage meters & analysis soon to follow!

[Humankeg]

If meters are coming then it should be built in and everyone should have it. Cause there's one thing on this planet that is worse than the guy who posts meter results after every pull, and that's the guy who asks, "ne1 got a meter?"

 

Go ahead and say it a few times. Right there, out loud, at your computer. Say it. "Anybody got a meter?"

 

Makes one of your eyes twitch doesn't it?

 

Those people are the lowest life form in the gaming community. They are even below the guild leader who demands a raid spot after getting home from work only to fall asleep at his keyboard 15 minutes into the run. Yeah, they're worse than that guy.

 

So give everyone a built in meter so we won't have to see "ne1 got a meter?"

 

It's like being propositioned by an elderly street walker. "Wanna party?" *screams*

 

So people that are competitive and want to guage their performance are worthless creatons? So those professional atheletes and Olympians that look to see what their speed times are, how much they can lift, and how high they can jump, are also the same pieces of crap you were just talking about.

 

Someone got benched a lot during tea-ball and hasn't recovered from it yet...

[cloneslds]

I like how people try to provide arguments countering combat logs. Becuase there are not any legitimate arguments against them. Combat logs are a primary tool that have been in MMO's since their inception.

 

You don't want combat logs? Fine don't use them. Brings out elitism? This is a multiplayer game of course it's going to do that. We already have guilds in my server bragging that they were the first to complete flash-points.

 

I especially, enjoyed the "have combat logs enabled on some servers"...Like damn people do you know what MMO's are?

[Darqu]

Because people don't like to be reminded that they're only succeeding on the hard work of others?

 

because many are tired of the dps epeen waving

and for the record I was the worldwide best in my class in the last MMORPG I've played, when my char was geared I was #1 for months, even months after I quit, when I didn't raid I would still outdps all and any raid geared chars of my class.

however I've always despised those who would brag about their dps or even exclude people from groups because their dps is suboptimal. what I don't like either is when people lack the ability to understand their role in a group or raid, however that doesn't show in any dps or hps parses.

It's not a job, it's a game. The point of a game is to have fun, especially in an MMO, have fun with people and then especially in this MMO that is so casual and linear in nature.

So fixing or improving the UI and a LFG tool and a /roll or /random function is more important imho than a combat log, also because once you have a combat log you have to design encounter against the max possible dps and can add triggers and warnings which simplifies gameplay, removes challenge and makes encounters boring.

the 1 reason on the pro side for a combat log is to show those too stubborn to learn a proof why they're wrong or to settle a dispute.

[Innocentone]

Content is already being cleared , so why add something that isn't needed? It's like saying for something that isn't broken then why try to fix it?

[Demonifuge]

I agree with those who say that dps meters should be used for personal purposes only. Combat logs are useful in a group in this kind of situation:

 

Party wipes at a boss becuase 1 person aggroed something he shouldn't have, or more generally does something he shouldn't have. Raid Leader asks who did that, noone answers. Party Leader checks combat logs to find out who made that mistake, and proceeds with proper warning or kicking.

 

Now DPS meters are something totally different. I want them for personal use because I (and I repeat I) can test rotations and stuff like that. They become weapons of mass destruction when given to a whole group.

 

Let's face it: most people are stupid, and a good chunk of online players are fanatics. I am tired of seeing "U DON'T HAVE X GEAR, ****! U DON'T USE THIS ROTATION, ****! U DON'T DO X DPS, ****!" Now that's just plain stupid, and I'll gladly kick in the face anyone who sais otherwise (I respect other people's opinions, but this goes beyond my limit). I've been playing MMORPGs for about a decade now, and played most games out there. It's not just WOW, it's not the game. It's the PEOPLE. I say people cannot be trusted with such a tool, so DPS meters shouldn't be public, and things like gearscore shouldn't be taken into consideration.

 

Demonifuge

Edited January 26, 2012 by Demonifuge

[Earthchild]

I agree with those who say that dps meters should be used for personal purposes only. Combat logs are useful in a group in this kind of situation:

 

Party wipes at a boss becuase 1 person aggroed something he shouldn't have, or more generally does something he shouldn't have. Raid Leader asks who did that, noone answers. Party Leader checks combat logs to find out who made that mistake, and proceeds with proper warning or kicking.

 

Now DPS meters are something totally different. I want them for personal use because I (and I repeat I) can test rotations and stuff like that. They become weapons of mass destruction when given to a whole group.

 

Let's face it: most people are stupid, and a good chunk of online players are fanatics. I am tired of seeing "U DON'T HAVE X GEAR, ****! U DON'T USE THIS ROTATION, ****! U DON'T DO X DPS, ****!" Now that's just plain stupid, and I'll gladly kick in the face anyone who sais otherwise (I respect other people's opinions, but this goes beyond my limit). I've been playing MMORPGs for about a decade now, and played most games out there. It's not just WOW, it's not the game. It's the PEOPLE. I say people cannot be trusted with such a tool, so DPS meters shouldn't be public, and things like gearscore shouldn't be taken into consideration.

 

Demonifuge

 

What if party wipes at a boss because 1 person didn't do enough dps?

[aironeousb]

The problem with damage meters is it is used as tunnel vision by a group or raid leader ignoring all other factors especially CC which takes time to cast which you will get called on for not doing but also get called on if your dps dips down because you took time to cast it.

 

If the designers are good all fights will not be a simple dps down the boss situation but will require other factors such as running and keeping line of sight, keeping up some sort of specialized buff on yourselves or debuff on the boss customized to that boss and environment, getting around high amounts of visual noise, use of equipment and items in the room special to that situation, CC casts (on adds too), kiting and sorting out a purposely designed confusing fight situation. None of that is seen by a damage meter.

 

When you let someone else know the information of how much dps you are doing and they are a leader, you are depending on their fair judgement and treatment of you within context.

 

Unfortunately all leaders cannot be trusted and quite often a leader that is a dps class with little cc for example will completely negate all other info about you and use the dps info about you as most important (tunnel vision and out of context) which is a form of dishonesty. Then that leader will start trying to micro manage you when they have never played that class or only played it up to a certain level.

 

It seems some people get off from bullying others.

100% honesty depends on the person receiving that info to be at least 90% fair.

Broadcasting your dps if you are a class with a high amount of CC is basically sticking your self on the bottom of the totem pole where multiple people will start telling you how to play and you will have to walk on eggshells making sure you do every little thing that will make the tunnel vision bullies happy.

Edited January 26, 2012 by aironeousb

[Derbefrier]

The problem with damage meters is it is used as tunnel vision by a group or raid leader ignoring all other factors especially CC which takes time to cast which you will get called on for not doing but also get called on if your dps dips down because you took time to cast it.

 

If the designers are good all fights will not be a simple dps down the boss situation but will require other factors such as running and keeping line of sight, keeping up some sort of specialized buff on yourselves or debuff on the boss customized to that boss and environment, getting around high amounts of visual noise, use of equipment and items in the room special to that situation, CC casts (on adds too), kiting and sorting out a purposely designed confusing fight situation. None of that is seen by a damage meter.

 

When you let someone else know the information of how much dps you are doing and they are a leader, you are depending on their fair judgement and treatment of you within context.

 

Unfortunately all leaders cannot be trusted and quite often a leader that is a dps class with little cc for example will completely negate all other info about you and use the dps info about you as most important (tunnel vision and out of context) which is a form of dishonesty. Then that leader will start trying to micro manage you when they have never played that class or only played it up to a certain level.

 

It seems some people get off from bullying others.

100 honesty depends on the person receiving that info to be at least 90% fair.

Broadcasting your dps if you are a class with a high amount of CC is basically sticking your self on the bottom of the totem pole where multiple people will start telling you how to play and you will have to walk on eggshells making sure you do every little thing that will make the tunnel vision bullies happy.

 

that crap is not as widespread as people want you to believe people can be ******es but it doesnt take a DPS meter to make that obvious. every raid i ever went on in WoW it was always the same, as long as you were trying raid leaders where very understanding and willing to work with you. but if you one of those people that get called out on not pulling your weight and answer the accusation with something like "screw you guys dont tell me how to play" instead of "okay how can i improve" then you deserve to get kicked which is what i saw more often than not. i dont think i ever saw someone kicked just because of bad DPS or bad Heals they were kicked because they refuse to improve and expected to get carried which is a perfectly good reason to kick someone.

 

seriously how many people against this that played WoW or any other MMO were ever kicked from a group for this specific reason

Edited January 26, 2012 by Derbefrier

[Frostbird]

because many are tired of the dps epeen waving

and for the record I was the worldwide best in my class in the last MMORPG I've played, when my char was geared I was #1 for months, even months after I quit, when I didn't raid I would still outdps all and any raid geared chars of my class.

however I've always despised those who would brag about their dps or even exclude people from groups because their dps is suboptimal. what I don't like either is when people lack the ability to understand their role in a group or raid, however that doesn't show in any dps or hps parses.

It's not a job, it's a game. The point of a game is to have fun, especially in an MMO, have fun with people and then especially in this MMO that is so casual and linear in nature.

So fixing or improving the UI and a LFG tool and a /roll or /random function is more important imho than a combat log, also because once you have a combat log you have to design encounter against the max possible dps and can add triggers and warnings which simplifies gameplay, removes challenge and makes encounters boring.

the 1 reason on the pro side for a combat log is to show those too stubborn to learn a proof why they're wrong or to settle a dispute.

 

Proof or didn't happen.

 

A lot of people who are worried about DPS meters causing 'Elitism' are more worried about being called out on their horrible performance.

 

Benefits for me:

- Aggro/threat meters. This is horrible at present for both dps and tanks since we have no idea where the balance lies.

 

- Class balance. We can much more easily determine which class is in the lead and which needs a buff.

 

- My own performance. I need to find out which rotations work best for me.

 

- My groups performance. I'm not going to give anyone in a pug a hard time unless they are completely awful or just not trying. But I do want to know who is slacking off.

 

- What killed me?

[Orila]

About time.

[lokivoid]

Damage meters force cookie cutter builds which force players to conform for be ignored and further turns the game into a glorified Xbox zerg.

 

No math and logic "force" cookie cutter builds. Why becuse talent tress are never large enough or balanced to allow multiple viable options. They do however allow some customization or mild deviations for the sake of utility without much compromise on proformance.

 

Summery: you post is invalid.

[Damador]

Have they said WHEN this is being added to the game? I've been taking my time leveling because it aint there and me and my friends don't really want to do our usual hardcore raiding without some of the tools we got use to using in other mmos.

[aironeousb]

Don't suck at the game and you will not suffer from this.

 

That is to say, if you have nothing to hide, then a combat log or recount will not hurt you. You're essentially saying "I need censorship to protect me!"

 

I'd rather know who to kick out of a group than have to cancel a group/flashpoint/op altogether because someone is dropping the ball and it's impossible to know who it is.

 

A bully loves too much information. He will take it out of context and broadcast it to others and use it to push you around.

 

100% honesty depends on the person receiving that information being at least 90% fair.

 

You must be sith.

[ericdjobs]

The problem with damage meters is it is used as tunnel vision by a group or raid leader ignoring all other factors especially CC which takes time to cast which you will get called on for not doing but also get called on if your dps dips down because you took time to cast it.

 

If the designers are good all fights will not be a simple dps down the boss situation but will require other factors such as running and keeping line of sight, keeping up some sort of specialized buff on yourselves or debuff on the boss customized to that boss and environment, getting around high amounts of visual noise, use of equipment and items in the room special to that situation, CC casts (on adds too), kiting and sorting out a purposely designed confusing fight situation. None of that is seen by a damage meter.

 

When you let someone else know the information of how much dps you are doing and they are a leader, you are depending on their fair judgement and treatment of you within context.

 

Unfortunately all leaders cannot be trusted and quite often a leader that is a dps class with little cc for example will completely negate all other info about you and use the dps info about you as most important (tunnel vision and out of context) which is a form of dishonesty. Then that leader will start trying to micro manage you when they have never played that class or only played it up to a certain level.

 

It seems some people get off from bullying others.

100 honesty depends on the person receiving that info to be at least 90% fair.

Broadcasting your dps if you are a class with a high amount of CC is basically sticking your self on the bottom of the totem pole where multiple people will start telling you how to play and you will have to walk on eggshells making sure you do every little thing that will make the tunnel vision bullies happy.

 

A DPS meter is required because all of the Hard/Nightmare content is pretty much based on enrage timers, that's it. Every single boss has an enrage timer.

 

Not being able to see what kind of DPS your operation is doing, esp. seeing individual DPS, is a problem.

 

When you're wiped for the 3rd time on a nightmare mode boss because of an enrage timer, you start to get a little pissed that you simply can't look at a DPS meter, see who isn't performing, and replace them. You have to guess and nobody is going to be honest "It's my DPS that sucks, sorry guys". You should be able to see how other people are performing; at least in Ops.

 

As long as enrage timers are going to be the MAIN factor of HM/Nightmare content, there needs to be a way to find out who's doing subpar DPS to optimize the ops. Most HM/NM fights CC is not a factor, meeting an enrage timer IS. I could give a crap less about your ability to CC is your DPS is causing us to miss an enrage timer. Everyone should be using stims/adrenals on CD and trying to maximize their DPS, anyone not doing so should be removed. I hate not being able to see who's actually giving it their all, and who's just going through the motions.

 

The only people who are against DPS meters are people that aren't confident in their ability to do well on them, or people who like being able to be lazy in a raid without anyone noticing. At least with DPS meters and you're doing subpar, you KNOW that you're doing subpar... with the way it is now, someone can be doing absolute crap DPS for their class/spec but think they're doing OMG UBER dps Here's the real kicker; without any sort of combat log or meter, it's impossible to see how you are even doing yourself. You have to fish around for anecdotal evidence, etc.. Pretty much guess.

Edited January 26, 2012 by ericdjobs

[Chrismilk]

What next?

 

Threat meter? Auto target healing?

 

Kind of destroys the immersion of flashpoints, to the point its all number crunching. Screw the GUI, lets just have all text like when MUD's were around.

 

I did every raid in LOTRO without any mods what so ever. There was a feel to the game, it was obvious when DPS was too low or a tank was not using all his/her abilities.

[Terko_Koslah]

Oh bollocks!!

 

I'll never get to raid

[Frostbird]

What next?

 

Threat meter? Auto target healing?

 

Kind of destroys the immersion of flashpoints, to the point its all number crunching. Screw the GUI, lets just have all text like when MUD's were around.

 

I did every raid in LOTRO without any mods what so ever. There was a feel to the game, it was obvious when DPS was too low or a tank was not using all his/her abilities.

 

I raided moderately hardcore in WoW before DPS/Threat meters really came onto the scene. It was *horrible* not to know if you were creeping up on the tank in threat, or if that rogue was afk autoattacking, or what killed people.

 

I much prefer the recount posting epeener than the 200dps "don't tell me how to play brah" douche any day of the week. Reason being - at least the epeener is killing stuff fast.

[Fugitivelama]

The ONLY metric that matters is: Did the group succeed?

 

This may be the only metric that matters at the end of the day, IF you kill the boss.

 

Let's say this metric keeps coming up as NO , NO you did not succeed! How are you going to fix this and eventually succeed? Without a combat parse there is absolutely no way to see what your group needs to change to make the outcome of the metric YES, Yes your group succeeded!

 

Sure it may be easy to see if a tank isn't holding aggro, or if someone breaks a CC, or stands in the poo. What you CAN NOT see, NOT AT ALL, is who needs to pickup the pace if your hitting enrage , if your tank is dying to Boss hits(could be tank could be healer, who knows?). It also gives the players who actually care about min/maxing and being the best that they can be something to use to evaluate themselves and determine which approach to rotation/gearing/speccing yields the best results.

 

Even with these tools implemented in any form. Even with a DPS meter that auto calls out in voice, text, and flashing alerts who sucked that fight. There will, and always will be, thousands of guilds and players for you to join up with who do not care about these types of things. Thousands of players are there for you to join who just pick a spec that looks fun and play the game to see the content and have some fun. I think anyone with the opinion that this should be left out for good needs to take that advice.

 

If you do not wanna be a person that uses the combat logs to help yourself or your group, that is fine, nothing against you. Ignore the logs/meters and go about your game playing have some laughs and enjoy yourself , no one is trying to take that away from you. But why are you trying to take it away from the players who do want it? Let the tool be implemented so that the hardcore players and theorycrafters can have access to it.

[Light_Valkyrie]

Oh bollocks!!

 

I'll never get to raid

 

Carry your own weight.

 

Its pretty easy with 5 minutes of your time and google.

[mufutiz]

any chance combat logs will be coming before 1.2?

 

It is really aggravating to not have a combat log in this game... on the list of bad decisions this actually ranks pretty high up for me.

 

And it is not at all about raiding or epeening for me. You can raid perfectly fine without a dps meter. But a combat logs for tanks is ESSENTIAL, as well as for everyone really in PvP.

Edited January 30, 2012 by mufutiz

[Ceribris]

Ooooi Edited January 30, 2012 by Ceribris

[Ceribris]

Ooooi Edited January 30, 2012 by Ceribris

[Ceribris]

What people are failing to see is that is a combat parser not a damage meter

Not only does recount record damage as some of you seem to think it also records; deaths, ccs, interrupts, healing, dispels, and much more.

 

For example I was in an instance on wow where I was on my alt, of course just sitting in the middle of the dps charts when some main tunneled boss i didn't say anything at the time until he linked the meters, then I decided people should see what targets he had attacked since he didn't switch once and actually help with the mechanics he was removed from group for his actions regardless of his dps.

 

The real arguement I'm trying to make is that you can still roll hybrids healing and dps at the same time but you'd probably be better off letting your group know to check healing and all your other aspects of performance becore judging not every fight is about constantly burning boss and if you see people that think it is you can point it out with this tool because if you know you're doing all you possibly can dispelling tossing out heals that guy is most likely tunneling and cheesing his way through the fight and these tools can point it out

Please look into all the functionalities rather than just dps and provide logical arguements not what you feel or troll other players

Edited January 30, 2012 by Ceribris
Grammar

[Ringthanes]

This argument is ridiculous. For SWTOR to be taken seriously by any sect of the mid-to-hard core gaming community, combat logs are a requirement. These nerds (I’m one of them) pour through data, spreadsheets, and calculations trying to find the most effective strategies to defeat encounters. Its most practical use is in raiding but the application can benefit the entire gaming platform. Parsing can help prove balancing issues across the classes and validate one build vs. another for effectiveness. Logs are an extremely valuable tool to not only the players but also the developers. Arguments against combat logs sound more like arguments against getting on the internet because you might get hacked. The benefits to game play far outweigh the risk of someone having a negative experience due to some pompous parse happy reject who thinks the parse is law.

 

Logs are not going to create a class of elitists. The elitists already exist with or without the logs. They may be easier to identify when logs come online, so the more casual players can ignore them as much as they are ignored. What if they include a setting for logs where you keep your individual log data public or private?

 

Good players will know if you are bad with or without the logs. They may not be able to specifically cite data, but you can only hide poor play for so long and you can’t cure stupid. The pseudo elitist who thinks a parse is law fall into the stupid category. You know them immediately as the tools who post DPS after every pull. You don’t want to group with these fools anyway.

[NuanceNW]

It just cracks me up that some folks actually demand they make the game easier through the activation of meters, mods or macros.

 

If someone like those features from those other games, why are aren't they still playing those?