Combat Logs are coming! Damage meters & analysis soon to follow!

[ComeAndSee]

I think a combat log is necessary to help understand the games mechanics a little more.

[jaiAtillar]

In my humble opinion those who are afraid of mods/parsers are the people that have been bullyed all their MMO life because the are poor players.

Can you do end content in MMO without mods? probably yes but you would have to be Korean!

 

Maybe those who are "afraid" of them, but that's not everyone who dislikes them.

 

I did end game content back in EQ without mods. I think there was a parser out at the time, but I never really bothered with it. And I'm not now nor have I ever been Korean.

 

I actually have nothing against the tools themselves, I used recount and dbm and plenty of other mods in WoW, and saved myself plenty of hours of frustration in the good old PUGs by seeing the percentage of people who had no chance and taking the cue to cut my losses.

 

My problem is with the mindset it creates and the changes it necessitates from the design teams. I've seen it hit me, it's apparent in my statement just above. I've seen it hit those I've tried to help ("I'm putting out top DPS!" "You're dying in 30 seconds, you're bottom on damage done, you need to follow instructions" "I'm dying because the tanks suck" "You can't tank fire..." "Then it must be the healers" "... /kick"). Now in that, I'm not saying the tool causes idiots and apathy, far from it. I'm saying it gives them a very weighty excuse. Numbers are impersonal, and the more a game becomes about numbers the more you forget you're playing with people, the more you forget you're playing with people the less you actually care about or respect the others you're playing with.

 

I don't know. I just know that while I'd use a parser and I'd tune the hell out of my rotation/priority/whateverthehellitbecomes just like I did in WoW, I'd also become far less likely to even interact with anyone outside my circle. Or maybe I'm just a cantankerous old misanthrope and they just give me an excuse.

[Knyghtprowler]

Thank god... me and a guildie were just sitting here talking during maint downtime and it always goes back to no mods or UI customization and how primitive this game is currently.

 

Im happy to hear this little bit of good news but they still have a long... LONG way to go until they reach what we consider to be the standard in mmo's these days.

[Ujest]

cmon man you ever seen anyone walk better with crutches?

 

No, nobody walks better with crutches, they walk because of crutches

 

To put this in a MMO frame, some people play well with meters, while others play well because of meters. One would play well with out meters, while the the later only play well because of the meter. One knows their class and abilities and how to play the class, while the other does not and would not be playing at the level they do if it were not for the meters.

 

Now, which are you; don't need the crutch or need the crutch...

[Pantanni]

Thank god... me and a guildie were just sitting here talking during maint downtime and it always goes back to no mods or UI customization and how primitive this game is currently.

 

Im happy to hear this little bit of good news but they still have a long... LONG way to go until they reach what we consider to be the standard in mmo's these days.

 

^This.

 

While this game is "Shiny and New" it lacks the customization that I've grown accustomed too. And +1 for the metrics parsing. Some people abuse them and spam the meters in groups, which is super silly. I do like seeing where I stand and helping to hone my damage rotation as a person who has always played dmg dealers as my main class in my other MMOs. It's what I do, and if I can't have tools to hone my skills, ***...?

[PocketHealer]

Good now i can kick the scrubs from my group that do bad dps.

[Satpolpp]

This feature is probably THE LEAST of their worries.....what about the fps drop, auto un-target your enemies, warzone lags, and the myriad of other little things that make the game so unenjoyable?

 

I would prefer they focus 100% of their attention to issues at hand rather than boasting about future features. Besides, I think adding modding functionality is a much better solution and let the community of programmers work their own magic

[covu]

Welcome back combat logs this is excellent news indeed, I can finally start working on the numbers

[Conwolv]

This feature is probably THE LEAST of their worries.....what about the fps drop, auto un-target your enemies, warzone lags, and the myriad of other little things that make the game so unenjoyable?

 

I would prefer they focus 100% of their attention to issues at hand rather than boasting about future features. Besides, I think adding modding functionality is a much better solution and let the community of programmers work their own magic

 

It's very high on their priority list accorrding to the interview. So I wouldn't say "the least of their worries." So we'll see combat logs at some point and if you aren't a fan, don't use them and don't play with people who do. The rest of us will use the tool to evaluate ourselves, our raid and finally have some idea of performance.

 

One thing that helps an MMO community is the community able to provide solid numbers and feedback of items under or over performing. Most bugs affecting performance or under/over-tuning in other MMOs are caught by players and reported. However, without a combat log, this becomes very difficult for the community to provide that level of feedback. Thus you may not be performing as well as you should be, and you wouldn't know.

 

In an encounter, it becomes very hard to determine what went wrong on a fight without one.

 

From what I've seen, people don't like damage meters because they don't like being judged. They don't want to get kicked from groups for not performing and that makes them feel bad. While I can understand that, the rest of the community who needs these tools shouldn't be left without because some people who don't play the game as well as others gets their feelings hurt by some anonymous player on their server kicking them from group.

 

Combat Logs, Macros, Target of Target, UI Scaling etc are the basics of MMOs to be able to perform. We've got at least one coming, I can only hope for more.

 

PS: Can we get debuff icons we can see in Op frames?

[jdmaze]

My personal opinion is that they should give us combat logs, but NOT meters. I agree that meters can hurt more than help. You have uber elitists that hammer people based on meters. You have people that sit and watch their DPS instead of their game play. And worse, they think their good, even if they wiped the group because they were so focused on topping the damage chart.

 

However, I think logs are good, because they still allow you to see and reflect on how you or your group are performing. And you'll really WANT that information if you have to pull it out yourself after the fact.

 

I'm all for combat logs. Totally against damage meters.

[WuphonsReach]

My theory is that the people who are complaining about damage meters are the people who do bad dps. They have a very invested interest NOT to have combat logs/damage meters implemented.

 

Not entirely. Yes there are those who can't deal with / don't want their short-comings as DPS exposed.

 

But combat logs are a tool - neither good nor bad. How you apply that tool and whether you are helpful or hurtful with the information is what counts. A lot of the negative reaction is from those who have dealt with the sub-human "DPS is everything" crowd in PuGs. They don't care if you CC'd or interrupted or tossed a helpful heal mid-fight, if you're not top DPS then you're garbage.

 

Or if you don't top the "healing meter". Which is always amusing.

[kaelthun]

It sucks that a lot of people are asking for combat logs for the wrong reasons. There's a few people out there that will parse the data, spit out some graphs, analyze it and conclude rotations / gear setups and stat priorities from there. More power to you, I loves me some good theorycrafting.

 

Reality of the situation is that most of the tools that grow out of this enable or create bads.

 

That is all.

[Bdaw]

Hopefully, the combat log will only show your data, so you can only see your own dps. Personal parsers are beneficial tools. Group meters, do more harm than good.

 

This only does more harm then good if you're the one bringing down the group. These are great tools for finding weak links in your party which allow you to replace that person with someone who will be able to participate equally with the group. I agree that for low level flashpoints these are a little overkill. But I'm not going to carry you through the end game operations and that's what these tools help you determine.

 

Say whatever anyone wants, the only people who don't like these are people who aren't able to carry their weight and want other players to carry it for them. If you put out the appropriate healing/damage for your lvl/class then you have nothing to worry about from these.

[crimsonite]

My problem with these things, is they seem to invariably lead to the balance theads, then the balance fixes, then I quit it's not balanced enough threads, to the games dead it's too easy threads.

 

honestly, this is the only argument that makes sense against meters. Im still for them anyway

[FloatingFatMan]

honestly, this is the only argument that makes sense against meters. Im still for them anyway

 

I think it's a pretty strong argument against the things, to be honest.

 

Plus, it also leads to min/maxing, with usually leads to nerfs, and almost always leads to arguments somewhere down the line.

 

It's a game, guys. A means of having some fun, hopefully with some friends, and generally entertaining yourselves. It's NOT Spaceships & Spreadsheets!

[CogitoErgo]

Completely unnecessary in this game and a waste of their developement time.

[Sernon]

Unhealthy gaming approach, is unhealthy. You can do it all without cramming numbers in the face of everyone. For it will be in the face of all, not only those interested. Thanks for "sharing".

 

---

[blaquelotus]

I might regret it but I guess I'll weigh in on this.

 

First off, both sides need to remove the rose colored glasses. There is a lot of drama being generated and a lot of denial. First to those fellow old school gamers, I totally get your position. Back in the day we won through trial and error, and many wipes to figure out fights and best play style. We worked hard, got knocked around the block many times but when we came out on top we felt we'd truly been victorious. Those were fun times. That said, there seems to be some visions of a past where people could just play what they wanted and be considered on equal footing. There has always been best build and tactics. It just took us longer to figure them out. And there has always been elitism.

 

Also, the genre has changed. In the past MMO's were defined by figuring out and beating the game. This format kept the game a niche entertainment. MMO's have become mainstream now. With the ascendance of casuals as the dominant player base, there came more and more tools with which to make the game easier to master. We may look back on the old days fondly but its in the past. This is our new paradigm. Casuals rule and after many years of WoW those casuals now actually consider themselves the "hardcores". It may disgruntle those from the old school, but over all its probably a good thing. Games don't have to become such time sinks anymore.

 

To the Add-on crowd all those things that people are talking about with Add-ons breeding bad players, less alert leaders, and removal of sense of adventure? Hate to break it too you but that's true they do. However, for the good players add-ons basically put a super charger into an already fast car. It just gets better. Also it must be acknowledged that making games more accessible to the larger audience is only going to grow the community. There is bad that comes with it, but a lot of good too.

 

In summation jerks have always existed, add-ons didn't create them. Add-ons are kind of lazy, but ultimately so what?

[Airinya]

I'll just leave the same question here as the other.

 

Why are you afraid of metric evaluation tools?

 

Why do you need everything dumbed down so you can understand it in a quantitative form rather than collaboratively working with your raid group to determine the problem and/or a workaround?

[Xzulld]

You can keep your damage meters and combat logs.

 

OHHH, I will.

 

Thanks,

[Xzulld]

"Originally Posted by Tralesh

My problem with these things, is they seem to invariably lead to the balance theads, then the balance fixes, then I quit it's not balanced enough threads, to the games dead it's too easy threads."

 

honestly, this is the only argument that makes sense against meters. Im still for them anyway

 

Yea cause you know the forums are what games are all about!

Edited December 29, 2011 by Xzulld

[Jederix]

That's cute but no.

 

If everyone else in the raid is doing considerably more dps than you are, the fact that the group succeeded is irrelevant to the fact that everybody put in more work than you did. And yet you think it's ok for you to get carried.

 

I have news for you, those builds that you hate so much... they are used because generally they work. If they weren't the most dps efficient people wouldn't be using them. You are more than welcome to play your own custom build, but if your dps is considerably less than where it should be for your gear levels then I'll ask you to make some changes. When you refuse I'll find someone to replace you. It's simply unfair to other players to ask them to carry you because you feel the need to be a unique butterfly.

 

Incorrect. You want to be an elitist "I know how to play the game better than you do" *****. You are doing a good job so far.

 

If the encounter is beaten, it is beaten. Here's a hint. This is a game. You didn't do any "work" at all.

[Airinya]

Let all the whining end! It is over, we're getting combat logs and with that, the ability to parse and analyze the data.

 

Source: http://torwars.com/wp-content/uploads/Podcasts/fan_sum_02_qa_georg_zoeller.mp3

 

EDIT: Dropbox suspended my public links because you guys downloaded that file too much. lol

 

Transcript:

 

That's ok. By the time they add meters, dual spec, and LFD for all the whiney-silver-platter babies I'll be able to play GW2.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Airinya

[Lycaena]

WoW didn't spring forth with damage meters, those were created later on to fulfill a need that arose from doing raids.

 

Meter debate aside, this is a rather good point. In fact, WoW still doesn't have a built in meter, it has a combat log but that's it. The typically used real-time meters are recount and skada, both of which are third party addons.

 

Actually, thinking this through, the out of the box WoW UI is somewhere between god awful and terrible. There have been some changes over the years (i.e. the new and improved raid frames (which are essentially a copy of other popular healing mods), target markers (which used to be handled by a mod called lucky charms)), but overall while it's certainly playable without addons, it's not a very user friendly UI. In my opinion, the SWTOR UI is a billion times better.

 

The difference is that WoW currently allows for the creation and use of third party addons. Combat logs, threat meters, etc. are all done via third party addons, they’re not built into the game. These are community created. The developers opened the door for people to customize the interface and game and the community took hold and created what it needed (i.e. everything from being able to unlock and scale your hotbars – which isn’t built into WoW, last I checked it’s a locked UI, and I’m currently using bartender (I think) to make things moveable -- to combat logs came forth).

 

It's cool that that they're discussing whether to allow addons or not (though frankly even games like EQ2 and LOTRO which, to my understanding, are hard coded allows for some UI customization), and that built in combat logs are a top of the list discussion. I do like having a combat log to refer to so I can better my performance and figure out when I did something wrong. But, really, if the developers are as "community oriented" as they claim, then set up some rules and parameters of what is allowed and what is restricted with UI customization, give the community the ability to create addons to customize it, and let the coding savvy players of the game jump to see if they can create things that people want or feel they need.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Lycaena

[mpano]

I'll pass on the dps meters and such. If you're so pathetic that you decide that person X has to do DPS amount Y in your group....well, you're a waste of pixels anyway. Sorry, WoW rejects, but DPS does not a party make. I'll take a guy who's focused, attentive and helps the group anywhere and anyway needed over some ******** who's only concern is being top DPS in the party ANY day of the week.

 

Again, garbage like this is why WoW has ruined MMO's.