Revan

[LadyKulvax]

This is a serious issue for me in the Star Wars mythos. How many people did Kyp Durron massacre with the Sun Crusher? Yeah, I know, it was Exar Kun. But there seem to be virtually no consequences for Jedi who fall to the dark side and do horrible things if they are later redeemed, when it is usually their own moral failings and weaknesses that lead them down that path in the first place. You start to understand why some in the Star Wars universe wonder whether they would be better off with no Jedi or Sith at all.

 

This is brilliantly spoken upon by Chris Avellone through Atton Rand in KotOR 2, he says what we should all be thinking, you can't just go 'soz dark zide' and explain away millions, if not billions of deaths, it's frankly one of the most annoy things in Star Wars for me.

[Jandi]

This is brilliantly spoken upon by Chris Avellone through Atton Rand in KotOR 2, he says what we should all be thinking, you can't just go 'soz dark zide' and explain away millions, if not billions of deaths, it's frankly one of the most annoy things in Star Wars for me.

 

Just like schizophrenia is annoying in court. The point is that for all intents and purposes, the dark side affects the brain in some way and long exposure causes total detachment from reality in most cases as see all across the EU on older Sith. It's a matter of personal perspective whether or not it's reason enough to relieve someone of blame, but, the reasoning is the same as in the real world. If you have brain damage or suffer from a severe mental illness, you aren't responsible for your actions and the same principle applies in the SW universe.

[SoonerJBD]

Just like schizophrenia is annoying in court. The point is that for all intents and purposes, the dark side affects the brain in some way and long exposure causes total detachment from reality in most cases as see all across the EU on older Sith. It's a matter of personal perspective whether or not it's reason enough to relieve someone of blame, but, the reasoning is the same as in the real world. If you have brain damage or suffer from a severe mental illness, you aren't responsible for your actions and the same principle applies in the SW universe.

 

Yes, but schizophrenics and others with mental illness who commit violent crimes do not go without consequences. They almost always spend their lives locked away in mental hospitals. There is no cure for schizophrenia, although there is treatment. There is no cure for brain damage. Contrary to what people seem to think, people who are declared mentally incompetent by a court don't just walk free. They usually spend the rest of their lives institutionalized. Plus, and this is important, you don't contract schizophrenia or brain damage through your own moral failings and lust for power.

Edited June 27, 2013 by SoonerJBD

[Jandi]

Yes, but schizophrenics and others with mental illness who commit violent crimes do not go without consequences. They almost always spend their lives locked away in mental hospitals. There is no cure for schizophrenia, although there is treatment. There is no cure for brain damage. Contrary to what people seem to think, people who are declared mentally incompetent by a court don't just walk free. They usually spend the rest of their lives institutionalized. Plus, and this is important, you don't contract schizophrenia or brain damage through your own moral failings and lust for power.

 

Well obviously. However, if a Jedi turn back from the dark side, it's effects on the mind pass, over time at least. So, why keep them locked up if the mental problems pass? More importantly, the Jedi don't dwell on the past and if a fallen Jedi does his utmost to atone, why not let them? After all, what's done is done and executing the fallen Jedi won't bring back the dead, but the Jedi can still save lives in the future.

 

It's why they usually try to redeem fallen Jedi or even Sith, rather than simply execute them. I'm not arguing for the practice as "right" or "wrong", simply explaining it from a philosophical standpoint.

[BradTheImpaler]

Well obviously. However, if a Jedi turn back from the dark side, it's effects on the mind pass, over time at least. So, why keep them locked up if the mental problems pass? More importantly, the Jedi don't dwell on the past and if a fallen Jedi does his utmost to atone, why not let them? After all, what's done is done and executing the fallen Jedi won't bring back the dead, but the Jedi can still save lives in the future.

 

It's why they usually try to redeem fallen Jedi or even Sith, rather than simply execute them. I'm not arguing for the practice as "right" or "wrong", simply explaining it from a philosophical standpoint.

 

Well put.

 

This is why Truce at Bakura was awesome, though. Read it if you want to see Vader/Anakin get told off.

"Maybe Vader had died heroically, but ten minutes of contrition did not make up for years of atrocities."-Leia Organa

Edited June 27, 2013 by BradTheImpaler

[SoonerJBD]

Well obviously. However, if a Jedi turn back from the dark side, it's effects on the mind pass, over time at least. So, why keep them locked up if the mental problems pass? More importantly, the Jedi don't dwell on the past and if a fallen Jedi does his utmost to atone, why not let them? After all, what's done is done and executing the fallen Jedi won't bring back the dead, but the Jedi can still save lives in the future.

 

It's why they usually try to redeem fallen Jedi or even Sith, rather than simply execute them. I'm not arguing for the practice as "right" or "wrong", simply explaining it from a philosophical standpoint.

 

I think we understand the premise. The idea is that once you are free of the influence of the dark side, you are no longer a danger and also that actions committed under the influence of the dark side aren't fully under your control. But Jedi who fall make choices that lead them to the dark side. It makes sense that there would be at least SOME form of punishment. They don't have to be executed necessarily, but the idea that someone says, "OK, all better now," and you pretend nothing happened seems pretty ridiculous.

[Jandi]

I think we understand the premise. The idea is that once you are free of the influence of the dark side, you are no longer a danger and also that actions committed under the influence of the dark side aren't fully under your control. But Jedi who fall make choices that lead them to the dark side. It makes sense that there would be at least SOME form of punishment. They don't have to be executed necessarily, but the idea that someone says, "OK, all better now," and you pretend nothing happened seems pretty ridiculous.

 

That's hardly the case though. Fallen Jedi are always under scrutiny and masters always keep an eye on them for any signs of corruption. Vader overshadowed the entire NJO and Luke was constantly afraid of his new order turning into an army of Vaders. Even in TOR if you've played the JK story, the one Jedi on Quesh is struggling with his former Sith life and once he returns to Tython is under constant watch by his master.

 

So, you can't just pretend like no one cares just because they don't constantly remind the redeemed Jedi about their past actions. They are never trusted in the same way as other Jedi, but they are allowed to keep serving the order in one capacity or another.

 

Of course, some force users are exceptions. IIRC, there are special Jedi prisons appearing every now and then and on Belsavis you have the dread masters locked up.

[Skodan]

Luke: "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."

Obi-wan: "Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the force, he ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened the good man who was your father was destroyed."

 

He wasn't himself, the Dark Side twists your mind and turns you into someone else.

 

i still remember the first time i played KOTOR and got to the reveal, i was like WHAT?!?! :eek::eek:

[Girdeux]

I actually thought the novel was pretty good. I dont blame Drew for what he done after Kotor 2 retconned(shat on actually) a few major key points about the storyline from Kotor 1. Edited June 30, 2013 by Girdeux

[Euphrosyne]

I actually thought the novel was pretty good. I dont blame Drew for what he done after Kotor 2 retconned(shat on actually) a few major key points about the storyline from Kotor 1.

ahahahahaha what

[Girdeux]

ahahahahaha what

 

Are you serious, did you actually play both games? Chris Avellone retconned both revan and malak for starters. The guy didnt even consult with Bioware or Drew K on anything. If your going to write a sequel to a game atleast consult with the original author. In a interview either just before Kotor 2 came out or after, he even admitted he barely knew the story of Kotor 1 ..

 

Its one of the reasons the EU is a big mess, you get writers doing a big dump on eachother's work. Timothy Zahn was a prodigy of this, with Mara Jade crapping on other characters.

 

Writer 1 makes character and releases book, Writer 2 comes in(doesnt even consult with the original author) uses that character and changes alot of details around, destroying continuity. Now Writer 1 wants to make a sequel to his book, he then has to retcon more details to fit his book. This doesnt include other writers imbetween.

 

EU in a nutshell.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Girdeux

[Beniboybling]

Are you serious, did you actually play both games? Chris Avellone retconned both revan and malak for starters. The guy didnt even consult with Bioware or Drew K on anything. If your going to write a sequel to a game atleast consult with the original author. In a interview either just before Kotor 2 came out or after, he even admitted he barely knew the story of Kotor 1 ..

 

Its one of the reasons the EU is a big mess, you get writers doing a big dump on eachother's work. Timothy Zahn was a prodigy of this, with Mara Jade crapping on other characters.

 

Writer 1 makes character and releases book, Writer 2 comes in(doesnt even consult with the original author) uses that character and changes alot of details around, destroying continuity. Now Writer 1 wants to make a sequel to his book, he then has to retcon more details to fit his book. This doesnt include other writers imbetween.

 

EU in a nutshell.

This is confusing. Because as far as I can remember KOTOR 2 actually lets you choose what happened to Revan in the opening stages. So perhaps you chose wrong...

 

I can't remember KOTOR 2 even mentioning Malak so I'm also confused as to where that idea originates from. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate?

[LadyKulvax]

I actually thought the novel was pretty good. I dont blame Drew for what he done after Kotor 2 retconned(shat on actually) a few major key points about the storyline from Kotor 1.

 

The only thing he did was expand on it, where the hell did you get that from?

[Beniboybling]

The only thing he did was expand on it, where the hell did you get that from?

I know, I though KOTOR 2 complemented 1 quite well. Especially the way in which they allowed you to determine Revan's story, which effected events in the game. That was pretty clever.

[Girdeux]

This is confusing. Because as far as I can remember KOTOR 2 actually lets you choose what happened to Revan in the opening stages. So perhaps you chose wrong...

 

I can't remember KOTOR 2 even mentioning Malak so I'm also confused as to where that idea originates from. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate?

 

What i mean is, Revan originally was just a jedi who fell to the dark side and wanted the galaxy for himself, same with malak. Though kotor 2 changes this into what you see and hear in the game For good or bad though its still a "retcon".

 

Thank god tho Avellone didnt go with his original revan idea...that was Nihilus's mask was Revans skull.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Girdeux

[LadyKulvax]

What i mean is, Revan originally was just a jedi who fell to the dark side and wanted the galaxy for himself, same with malak. Though kotor 2 changes this into what you see and hear in the game For good or bad though its still a "retcon".

 

Thank god tho Avellone didnt go with his original revan idea...that was Nihilus's mask was Revans skull.

 

Erm all it did was give him a motivation, it expanded on the character, as ALL works do, the idea that he turned to save galaxy from a forgotten empire was actually very intriguing and was just an OPINION that some characters had.

 

You are blowing this way out of proportion and oh I'd love to hear where you got that from, because his mask is actually to represent death and the nothingness that would come after, for he devours the force ghost and spirit as well, he was the ultimate anti-Jedi, far worse than a Sith, the idea that it was Revan's skull is ludicrous and contradicts what I've heard Avellone state in many interviews.

 

Nihilus' character was never about who he was or what he may have been, but what he represented.

 

In other words I don't think anything you have stated warrants the Retconning of KotOR 2 into mainly insignificant events.

[Girdeux]

Erm all it did was give him a motivation, it expanded on the character, as ALL works do, the idea that he turned to save galaxy from a forgotten empire was actually very intriguing and was just an OPINION that some characters had.

 

You are blowing this way out of proportion and oh I'd love to hear where you got that from, because his mask is actually to represent death and the nothingness that would come after, for he devours the force ghost and spirit as well, he was the ultimate anti-Jedi, far worse than a Sith, the idea that it was Revan's skull is ludicrous and contradicts what I've heard Avellone state in many interviews.

 

Nihilus' character was never about who he was or what he may have been, but what he represented.

 

In other words I don't think anything you have stated warrants the Retconning of KotOR 2 into mainly insignificant events.

 

My belief is that its a retcon. Doesnt matter if you think it isnt. And you should be able to do a google search to look what your after.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Found it, though it seems it was nothing more then a rumor unless you can get the source on it. But all I found was this..

 

IIRC, the rumor about Nihilus' mask being made from Revan's skull was one that was considered and rejected early in the plot sessions Obsidian had, when they were planning the game's plot.

 

Unless you can provide an actual quote from the guy, then its just a rumor.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Girdeux]

Found it, though it seems it was nothing more then a rumor unless you can get the source on it. But all I found was this..

 

 

 

Unless you can provide an actual quote from the guy, then its just a rumor.

 

thats like giving a link back to the old OXM(?) kotor 2 spoilers. The game was released years ago, all those sites are taken down now with the interviews.

[LadyKulvax]

My belief is that its a retcon. Doesnt matter if you think it isnt. And you should be able to do a google search to look what your after.

 

Belief and fact are two different things, now you're sounding as bad as the fanboys that ran around whining about how Revan was made canonical, into a light side white male, just because you dont like it doesn't mean you get to run around and shout retcon everywhere, a retcon is an adjustment on a previous work, he adjusted nothing, he instead expanded upon it, by your logic The Phantom Menace retconned Obi-Wan Kenobi by showing what he was like as a Padawan.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Girdeux]

Belief and fact are two different things, now you're sounding as bad as the fanboys that ran around whining about how Revan was made canonical, into a light side white male, just because you dont like it doesn't mean you get to run around and shout retcon everywhere, a retcon is an adjustment on a previous work, he adjusted nothing, he instead expanded upon it, by your logic The Phantom Menace retconned Obi-Wan Kenobi by showing what he was like as a Padawan.

 

I dont like Revan, so no. And it was pretty clearly an adjustment lol.

[LadyKulvax]

I dont like Revan, so no. And it was pretty clearly an expansion lol.

 

Fixed.

 

Apparently, James Luceno retconned the movie saga with Darth Plagueis.

 

Unless you can provide an actual reason for how Chris Avellone actively retconned Revan and Malak, you are flatly wrong.

 

Oh and just so you remember, all that stuff about him was merely in-universe character opinion, not a canonical statement in a sourcebook he'd wrote.

 

You're clearly blowing it out of proportion.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Girdeux]

Fixed.

 

Apparently, James Luceno retconned the movie saga with Darth Plagueis.

 

Unless you can provide an actual reason for how Chris Avellone actively retconned Revan and Malak, you are flatly wrong.

 

Oh and just so you remember, all that stuff about him was merely in-universe character opinion, not a canonical statement in a sourcebook he'd wrote.

 

You're clearly blowing it out of proportion.

 

I dont really deal with alot of EU novels so idc about what Luceno did tbh. And I already stated it. And no i'm not blowing anything out of proportion. I stated what i had to.

[LadyKulvax]

I dont really deal with alot of EU novels so idc about what Luceno did tbh. And I already stated it. And no i'm not blowing anything out of proportion. I stated what i had to.

 

You stated something and have failed to recognise how you are wrong, in other words, you refuse to listen to a counter-point, the Revan and Malak going from wanting to conquer the galaxy to save the galaxy was just an opinion from characters in the game.

 

It turned out to be a wrong opinion when the events with the Emperor were revealed and his true motivations were given light.

 

There was no retcon, case closed.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Girdeux]

You stated something and have failed to recognise how you are wrong, in other words, you refuse to listen to a counter-point, the Revan and Malak going from wanting to conquer the galaxy to save the galaxy was just an opinion from characters in the game.

 

It turned out to be a wrong opinion when the events with the Emperor were revealed and his true motivations were given light.

 

There was no retcon, case closed.

 

No, From Revan wanting to conquer the galaxy to Revan wanting to take over and fortify it against an unknown threat. Case isnt closed since you are to blind to see it.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Girdeux