Macros for pvp, respecing, grabbing huttballs. Legal?

[Doomsdaycomes]

They can tell you that you can not use a voice program or any other behavior you may choose while in game(there are some exceptions but no room here).This is the same as a private group can telling you what you are allowed to say and if you may carry a gun while on their private property. Now if they can enforce it or not , or if the backlash and financial impact is completely ruinous is another question.

 

No, they really can't.

 

What programs people run on their computer is none of their business unless it meets one of the two criteria:

 

1. Modifies the Client.

2. Inputs into the Client.

[Glzmo]

As someone that uses text macros for /emotes I'm now worried about getting detected by your idiot detection system. I've already had friends get banned for opening treasure chests on Corellia and being assumed credit farmers.

 

PLEASE make toolbar abilities for all emotes if you're going to be scanning for text spam, cause I like to spam /backflip!

Even better, add all emotes and moods to the Key Bindings menu to be able to bind them directly to keys on the keyboard as well. My toolbars are full as it is and there is no way I could get all the emotes and moods I frequently use during roleplay into the empty spots.

[Malistrix]

 

 

One click 'enter chat, type 'inc snow!', hit enter' text macros designed to warn others is completely against the ToS. You need to make a decision - do I take the time to type 'inc snow' to the ops group, or do I just keep fighting this person... Think of it as an evaluation on if you are using a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over somebody not using that same tool.

 

 

 

Doesn't people who use TS, Skype or whatever other speaking device in WZ, have a HUGE advantage over those who don't o.O. Ya, they kind of have a greatest advantage over someone using a simple ''Inc snow'' macro. (And don't tell me ''yes, but everyone one can get skype or TS", because its not really harder to use macros)

[Doomsdaycomes]

Doesn't people who use TS, Skype or whatever other speaking device in WZ, have a HUGE advantage over those who don't o.O. Ya, they kind of have a greatest advantage over someone using a simple ''Inc snow'' macro. (And don't tell me ''yes, but everyone one can get skype or TS", because its not really harder to use macros)

 

Again it's an issue of what BW can and can't control.

 

I don't think any one is denying that Voip gives an "unfair" advantage though I think people tend to over state it's potential (or most common use).

 

In an ideal, "fair" environment for pvp either everyone would have voice chat, macros, etc.. or no one would. But this isn't an ideal world and unfortunately, Bioware can only influence anything that:

 

1) Modifies it's Client

2) Inputs into it's client.

 

Voice chat does not, and so fair or unfair, they really can't make policy about it.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Bioware needs to build in a voice chat into the game client. Period.

 

Allowing TS etc. is simply giving its users an unfair advantage over those who don't use a thing like it (deaf people, for example).

[Guthlac]

The people complaining Voip gives an unfair advantage, use Voip, so I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish by cutting off their nose to spite their face. As for the branding of the keyboard and mouse as official SWTOR items, probably not completely thought thru. However, lets say your local police dept has a charity auction of a PD/DARE branded Corvette Z06. This is a vehicle that is designed to achieve speeds in excess of 185mph, by offering this car and branding it with the local PD and DARE moniker, are they giving you the right to speed on the highway. I mean they are obviously giving you their blessing to ignore all speed laws right! It amazes me the inventive logic people come up with when they need to justify a weak argument.

[Illyean]

in other news, EA/BW update ToS to state players must play in a cave, must not get too close the the hot orange glowy magic stuff and should never venture past the line of trees on the far side for fear of disturbing the god of the mountain. I want my money back on the Razar mouse please.

[stringcat]

The problem with a TOS that is solely based on *technical* criteria is that it can be nickeled-and-dimed/loopholed by finding some small wording/interpretation that allows certain behavior. RL legal systems are the same way, and you can see the same friction in the US between camps who differ in how the constitution should be interpreted.

.

 

I'm not sure the Constitution is really the best example; it's broadly worded enough I don't think it's possible to interpret it as if it contained technical criteria. There are different schools of thought on how to interpret it, but those are policy-based (and I don't mean, policy-based in an outcome determinative way).

 

That said, I really wonder why Bioware is saying that basically any macro is prohibited by the TOS, except macros that dynamically cycle keybinds. It just makes for confusing guidance. Presumably people who dynamically cycle keybinds do so because they see it as providing a mechanical advantage of some kind.

 

"No macros whatsoever. Using software to remap your keys is okay" would be much clearer.

[Alericus]

Okay on this one and actually I tend to play alone and don't use any voice communcaition, I am totally okay with teams using it. I have beaten many many teams using only ops chat and Im sure they were using voice ie mumble vent etc.

 

I don't consider this an unfair advantage as we all KNEW that one existed right? In fact all the PVE'ers who do ops and flashpoints better be using it I cant imagine trying that stuff without it. it would be insane.

 

Vent is incredibly cheap and as players in a "F2P" game, I assure you most of you could afford your own so you can offer it to your pvp teams if you desired.

 

Basically now that we have a official response on macros and its detailed and clear all is good, and you can still use that fancy mouse just not the macros....level playing field deal with it

[funkiestj]

Allowing TS etc. is simply giving its users an unfair advantage over those who don't use a thing like it (deaf people, for example).

 

QUESTION: What makes one advantage fair and another unfair?

 

ANSWER: The people who make up the rules of the game decide what is allowed and what is prohibited. Doing something that is prohibited is unfair.

 

Are macros an unfair advantage? Yes, because BW says so.

Is a LAN party (or teamspeak) an unfair advantage? No, because BW says so.

Is the fact that you have bought a much better PC than me an unfair advantage? No, because BW says so.

 

---

 

Most (all?) of us WANT there to be logical reasons guiding the creation of the SWTOR rules. It makes us angry that an "incoming west" macro is considered "unfair" while a LAN party or teamspeak is allowed. It makes us angry because there is no logic to this.

 

--

 

SIDEBAR: autohotkey.com is freely available (and open source to boot), as is skype and the big 3 voice chat clients. And LAN parties. Friends (a guild) to group with is also free. Many guilds will provide the voice chat server for free (e.g. the guild master pays for it).

[Vistaer]

This is less about macros, but certainly falls into external devices/keybindings.

 

What about using a controller with programs that allow you to map keybindings, given SWTOR doesnt have built-in controller support?

 

Example of a layout with an XBox 360 Controller:

ABXY = 1-4 Hotkeys

Holding ABXY = 5-8 Hotkeys

"Combos" of ABXY = Hotkeys 9+ (and shift+1, ctrl+1, etc.)

Left Thumbstick = Move

Right Thumbstick = Move Camera

Bumper = Tab Target

 

Maybe a separate profile for space combat as well.

 

Is that OK?

[auroroavalor]

are people hear really suggesting that I can't talk to my irl friends on skype and be in the same WZ with them?

or talk to my guildies using any form VOIP? Get real.

If you're not on a VOIP in a RWZ I don't know why you're there

 

I have read all 26 pages as it stands, I must say after the first BW post I thought it was pretty blimmin' clear. Obviously other people didn't. But if you're pressing one and it triggers anything other than the one thing you have bound to the one key inside your games own key bindings you are cheating.

 

I have the SWTOR branded Razer mouse, haven't looked at the Macro's function, safe to say now I never will.

[Doomsdaycomes]

are people hear really suggesting that I can't talk to my irl friends on skype and be in the same WZ with them?

or talk to my guildies using any form VOIP? Get real.

If you're not on a VOIP in a RWZ I don't know why you're there

 

I have read all 26 pages as it stands, I must say after the first BW post I thought it was pretty blimmin' clear. Obviously other people didn't. But if you're pressing one and it triggers anything other than the one thing you have bound to the one key inside your games own key bindings you are cheating.

 

I have the SWTOR branded Razer mouse, haven't looked at the Macro's function, safe to say now I never will.

 

I think part of the people posting here are trying to really clarify things they're not understanding.

 

Another part of them are trying to figure out what they can still get away with.

 

Some of them are outraged that Bioware ruled against them and are trying to justify macro use with another issue entirely.

 

Some of them are trying to make a point about fairness. (and not understanding the core concept of what BW does and doesn't have a say in.)

 

I agree though, the definition of what is or isn't allowed seemed pretty clear to me.

[Zhiroc]

Rules are not made in a vacuum. The policies against macro use are solely based on the rationale that such macros constitute an "unfair advantage" for those who have the input devices that can do them. I don't particularly agree or disagree, but from an objective POV, it is a logical basis on which to form the TOS.

 

Extending this to chat macros, the only time such usage really gives anyone an advantage is in combat where a single keypress could put a message out to groupmates in less time than someone without a macro could do. Thus, this is the basis on which BW disallows such, which they have stated they do.

 

From the principles, therefore, VoIP is even more of an advantage as it allows for much more flexibility in communications than a chat macro could give. So on the basis of this, BW should be "concerned" otherwise their ruling on chat macros is inconsistent and a bit capricious.

 

Am I suggesting that VoIP be banned? No, because it's too popular and widespread. Could they? They could try. Other games have indeed written process scanners that check to see what you are running (doesn't WoW do this to some extent?) Is it feasible? Probably not, especially, as other mentioned, they could just run them on their smartphones/tablets for one, or otherwise try to hide them.

 

The only logical avenues to me are:

• Ignore the issue, and don't disallow chat macros
  
• Implement a voice-chat system in the game.
  

 

The former is the easiest, and frankly I wouldn't really care if I were playing against someone using them, whether or not I was using VoIP or not. The second is probably more "fair" in that it allows any players instant access to the feature without requiring them to be set up with all the possible clients people use, and a server rendezvous point to use them.

[Sidrath]

Seems to me Bioware is pretty clear on this one: no macros whatsoever. It's more than a little disingenuous considering their co-branding with Razer, but I'm not really sure I expected any consistency of thought from this developer anymore. I mean hey, not so very long ago in-game macros were to be a feature of the game to ensure it was 'competitive'.

 

"Ask A Jedi: What about player customization, such as scripting or macros?

James Ohlen, Lead Designer: That’s something that is pretty important for MMOs. It’s another feature we want to get in for ship, but its definitely a lot of work. So we’re trying to figure out how to get it in for ship. We might have to have a limited version at first. It’s a competitive feature, if we want to be competitive against a lot of the other MMOs, we eventually have to have it. I’ll just say its very high up on our list. It’s something that a lot of people want to see in our game, not just fans but even high up EA execs mention that its important."

 

"Greg Zoeller, Principal Lead Combat Designer: Macros are a pretty broad term for certain convenience and advanced user functions at this time. Some of those features are present as possible key binds in the game, others are not. We’re not opposed to macros, we don’t hate them, in fact we will probably add them, but probably not for launch."

 

I guess basic in-game macro functionality turned out to be too hard to implement on their tight budget, so now they have to bar even simple things like text macros - things that they always intended to make doable.

 

I will say this much though: a customer that read the above quotes from the Lead Designer and Lead Combat Designer might be forgiven for thinking that basic macroing with their SWTOR Razer Naga was an acceptable stopgap measure. At least, until Bioware implemented the macro features they -explicitly- had "high up on their list". Turns out no, you bought an expensive piece of plastic with bannable software.

[Macroeconomics]

Fairness? Competition? Yes. No. Maybe?

 

The distinction here is that any level of competition is allowed as long as it does not violate the ToS. VoIP programs are not against the ToS, thus the greater competitiveness they offer is allowed. Respec macros are against the ToS, hence they are not allowed.

 

If someone disagrees with the status quo then they'd have to base their arguments on what should or should not be in the ToS. But since what is allowed (disallowed) in the ToS is going to be heavily influenced by what BW can (can not) detect, and VoIP can not be detected by BW (absent applets that would monitor your out of game activity), I think those arguments are going to hit a wall rapidly....

[jpj_patrol]

According to this old forum post by Beruthien, sequence macros are okay to use..

Greetings everyone,

 

When talking about anything macro related we would like to provide the following guidelines:

• No automation
  
• No delays or looped commands in macros
  
• It is okay to bind a macro that performs abilities after each other as long as it still requires the user to press the button on the physical keyboard each time a new action is performed
  

These rules apply regardless of which peripheral you are using.

 

Hope this clears it up a bit, but if you have further questions regarding the topic please get back to us!

 

which contradicts what Philip_BW posted here

 

If you instead have a system that when you hit 1, it fires of 1, 2, 3, 4 in quick succession or all at once (i.e. one click == many actions) in order to try and fire something that isn't currently in a cool down state then yes, that is against the ToS. Again, one click must always equal one action and only one action within the game.

 

Was the Terms of Service updated since then (the post is over a year old, so highly possible) or is the EA legal department that unorganized?

I personally don't use macros, it takes the fun and skill out of learning rotations. But this seeming contradiction does cause great concern and confusion in me and no doubt plenty of other players. Clarification of these two statements would greatly benefit the SWTOR community as a whole, as I do enjoy this game quite a bit.

[Syberduh]

The ToS has a blanket prohibition on macros of any kind. That has never been the stance of devs on the forum, though.

[cashogy_reborn]

what is so complicated about this?

 

it doesnt matter what controller you are using, what keyboard, whether or not you have rebound keys, etc.

 

one button press = one ability performed. its not rocket science.........

[Avicii]

what is so complicated about this?

 

it doesnt matter what controller you are using, what keyboard, whether or not you have rebound keys, etc.

 

one button press = one ability performed. its not rocket science.........

This.. Not sure what's so hard to understand although you cen tell in this thread who is inclined to use macros that violate the ToS by there comments.

[Syberduh]

what is so complicated about this?

 

it doesnt matter what controller you are using, what keyboard, whether or not you have rebound keys, etc.

 

one button press = one ability performed. its not rocket science.........

 

I think part of the reason that people are bemused by this stance is that a cycling macro like the one okayed by Phillip_BW is a more complex script than many of the disallowed ones.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Syberduh

[Groovykool]

Use case 6

 

Gaming Keyboard that supports six key anti-ghosting.

 

I press 3-6 key binds simultaneously. All keys are registered.

 

 

[ ] allowed by ToS

[ ] prohibited by ToS

[ ] example to clear enough to give a ruling

[ronniehenlau]

Use case 6

 

Gaming Keyboard that supports six key anti-ghosting.

 

I press 3-6 key binds simultaneously. All keys are registered.

 

 

[ ] allowed by ToS

[X] prohibited by ToS

[ ] example to clear enough to give a ruling

 

 

Covered by:

If you instead have a system that when you hit 1, it fires of 1, 2, 3, 4 in quick succession or all at once (i.e. one click == many actions) in order to try and fire something that isn't currently in a cool down state then yes, that is against the ToS. Again, one click must always equal one action and only one action within the game.

[Groovykool]

But I am pressing 3 keys at the same time. So three key presses.

[Exly]

are people hear really suggesting that I can't talk to my irl friends on skype and be in the same WZ with them?

or talk to my guildies using any form VOIP? Get real.

If you're not on a VOIP in a RWZ I don't know why you're there

 

I have read all 26 pages as it stands, I must say after the first BW post I thought it was pretty blimmin' clear. Obviously other people didn't. But if you're pressing one and it triggers anything other than the one thing you have bound to the one key inside your games own key bindings you are cheating.

 

I have the SWTOR branded Razer mouse, haven't looked at the Macro's function, safe to say now I never will.

 

I don't really think that people want to put an end to the use VOIP while playing the game, but if BioWare's stance on text macros is that they are considered a violation of the ToS, then it would make sense that VOIP should also be against the ToS. This is especially true because BW's reasoning is that text macros give player's that use them a distinct advantage over those who do not, so it make sense that VOIP would also fall into this category, and therefor should be disallowed.