Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned

[Korse]

Where is this idea that skipping ahead to get loot is even a motivation? WHOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOO! A 75 might armoring in my bracer and a pair of boots for my sniper! BIG DMG!

 

There's a 75 main hand. That's probably pretty useful. Can you get it yet? No. But I'm 100% comfortable with knowing that the other half of the 75 gear will increase my chances to defeat this boss and is coming soon. The competition to defeat both NMs going on in parallel is much more interesting to me than guilds whining to nerf this boss so they can beat it in two hours. Will that upset the people that think the NM title should just be given to them? Yes.

[OneShotXV]

There's a 75 main hand. That's probably pretty useful. Can you get it yet? No. But I'm 100% comfortable with knowing that the other half of the 75 gear will increase my chances to defeat this boss and is coming soon. The competition to defeat both NMs going on in parallel is much more interesting to me than guilds whining to nerf this boss so they can beat it in two hours. Will that upset the people that think the NM title should just be given to them? Yes.

 

If it was Bioware's intent that you need loot from NiM SV to defeat the second boss in NiM TfB, why would they not release SV first? Or at least simultaneously?

[TenderDeath]

There's a 75 main hand. That's probably pretty useful. Can you get it yet? No. But I'm 100% comfortable with knowing that the other half of the 75 gear will increase my chances to defeat this boss and is coming soon. The competition to defeat both NMs going on in parallel is much more interesting to me than guilds whining to nerf this boss so they can beat it in two hours. Will that upset the people that think the NM title should just be given to them? Yes.

 

That's interesting since the other bosses are beatable with less than optimal gear as they are. Are we to assume that BW has a grand plan to run parallel NiM raids to compliment the gear progression, or that they are prone to raid design flaws as their track record clearly shows?

[CoppertheBeagle]

My raid is not geared enough to try this as our ppl are in half 69's but has any1 tried a different kill order? I mean i understand it makes heirad hit like a truck but maybe that is able to be healed through in nightmare mode and if you killed kel'sara first he wouldn't do his enrage instant death beam. Also I have no idea what happens when surging chain doesn't get interrupted. This might buy ppl enough time to do more damage quicker as they are always on the boss.

 

It might also get rid of lightning field as its like a 99 second cast.

 

I could be crazy and an idiot but I'm just curious.

Edited June 13, 2013 by CoppertheBeagle

[blockheadsk]

I'm not being closed minded about this, but thus far you and the other guilds have not given any evidence which supports your claim that the fight is impossible. Give me evidence and I'll believe you. Right now, the only concrete evidence in the thread is mine, and it says the fight is doable (albeit tight).

 

I have something to point out, in your assumptions.

 

1309032 + 1716816 + 1394913 + (47535 * 2 * 3) = 4705971

 

Note that I'm doubling the Legionaire to represent the AoE DPS loss due to the need to kill the remainder of the adds. I'm assuming you have enough AoE DPS that you don't need to single-target them down.

 

11204.692857143 DPS required

 

Tanks: 1.2k each

Healers: 0k each

DPS: 2202

 

Estimated Ciphas bubble delay: 12 seconds. Accounting for this delay:

 

420 - 24 = 396

 

11883.765151515 DPS required

 

DPS: 2371

 

First off, I would like to see logs of tanks doing 1.2k DPS. I can push 950 DPS, and I don't see how the 4 pieces of 72 gear I'm missing will up it to 1.2k. I don't think using Styrak as an example is a proper comparison; nevermind the fact that it's a different fight, there is an increased damage phase, during which all DPS is boosted.

 

Secondly, especially since you advocate keeping all three as close together as possible, to minimize time spent switching, we have to discount the DPS generated from AOE attacks. While for some classes AOE attacks (controllable or not) make up a small portion of overal DPS, for others it's larger. Regardless of the fact, all AOE DPS has to be subtracted from what is actually presented through combat parsing, since all of that damage is negated every time one of them die.

 

I'm no math expert to run the numbers and see what's being lost there, but between that and the need to be absolutely perfect in execution, I am also inclined to believe that it is slightly overtuned. After all, the reality of the current situation is that guilds are hitting enrage timers hard. If a simulated model does not represent the reality of the encounter, then the model has to be incorrect.

[Ansalem]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

 

Albert Einstein

 

That sums up this fight with the current enrage timer.

[countpopeula]

I'll reply to the comment on my math post, since my math is essentially identical to MoX's and they're interesting points.

 

I don't know. I'm looking forward to seeing the fight in person. And yes, I'm quite certain my group will hit the enrage, and probably at higher HP levels than many of the groups here. I look forward to trying to work through it though. A tight enrage is part of what makes a fight hard, since it is a large component of the mechanics which pressure DPS (see also: Styrak). Maybe the enrage timer is out of proportion given the mechanical DPS loss in the fight. I'll know more once I've done it and have 8 combat logs in my hand and the memories of how the execution was.

 

Dude. For the last time. FOR THE LAST TIME. Your numbers don't matter for squat. You can sit there and say THEORY THIS THEORY THAT BLARG BLARG. That's not the way the fight works. You haven't been there by your own concession, so just stop. You cannot tank Kelsara near anyone because of her AOE tick. You cannot tank Ciphas and DPS Heirad because of the angled radius on his cleave. You cannot have them anywhere near Heirad if any of the classes have an AOE in their rotation because any damage done to those two increases the already huge incoming raid damage because of the synergy buffs they all have. All of this was laughable in NiM, I've tanked this with adrenals and DPS stims and with no pants just to clown around. We had a tank DC within 10 seconds of initial pull and had one of the tanks who is in there with our progression group solo tank all of HM Dread Guards. All of it. NiM does not follow the same rules. You cannot and never should factor tank DPS into a fight. Tank and healers can do bonus damage to make up for errors by the DPS or carrying a weak on. It is unreliable at best, and it certainly will not make up for the lacking numbers in the magnitude we're looking at.

 

The enrage issue isn't anything mechanical or anything more complex than the developers messing up as they have multiple times with numbers or coding, or them being intentionally lazy and linearly buffing HP/outgoing damage from Arkanian 69 balanced to Underworld 72. Considering they wrote the damage and healing formulas(which really aren't complex), you'd think they'd have the back knowledge to see that the additional stats players get from that tier upgrade do not correlate damage output in a linear fashion. Styrak is not a hard fight. It never has been. There was a gear deficiency when we went into the HM raid in full 63's. Once we each upgraded two or three pieces of gear to UW/Arkanian, we demolished the fight. There should not be a gear deficiency check on the second boss of a raid, especially considering subsequent fights do not require an upgrade at the level the DG current requires. Styrak is a "tight" enrage if you are not geared properly. We are geared properly, and this fight isn't even tight, it's beyond anything reasonable to the realm of being impossible unless you cheese clear the other bosses.

Edited June 13, 2013 by countpopeula

[mastirkal]

I have something to point out, in your assumptions.

 

 

 

First off, I would like to see logs of tanks doing 1.2k DPS. I can push 950 DPS, and I don't see how the 4 pieces of 72 gear I'm missing will up it to 1.2k. I don't think using Styrak as an example is a proper comparison; nevermind the fact that it's a different fight, there is an increased damage phase, during which all DPS is boosted.

 

Secondly, especially since you advocate keeping all three as close together as possible, to minimize time spent switching, we have to discount the DPS generated from AOE attacks. While for some classes AOE attacks (controllable or not) make up a small portion of overal DPS, for others it's larger. Regardless of the fact, all AOE DPS has to be subtracted from what is actually presented through combat parsing, since all of that damage is negated every time one of them die.

 

I'm no math expert to run the numbers and see what's being lost there, but between that and the need to be absolutely perfect in execution, I am also inclined to believe that it is slightly overtuned. After all, the reality of the current situation is that guilds are hitting enrage timers hard. If a simulated model does not represent the reality of the encounter, then the model has to be incorrect.

 

I'm doing 1.2k on my sin. I know tam has a shadow so I assume the same. At 950 dps you're underperforming o-o

 

If you mean parsing. Sin tanks only do around 950 dps, but we also get a lot if energy back from getting so it goes up.

Edited June 13, 2013 by mastirkal

[Korse]

That's interesting since the other bosses are beatable with less than optimal gear as they are. Are we to assume that BW has a grand plan to run parallel NiM raids to compliment the gear progression, or that they are prone to raid design flaws as their track record clearly shows?

 

No, but I think they've created a situation in which defeating all of the Nightmare content is actually a challenge. Can the entire NM instance be defeated right now? I don't know if the TFB Tantrum bug is present in NM, but the answer for everyone right now is: I don't know. Can parts of it be defeated? Yes. That means that progress can be made. As S&V is released, there stands the possibility of more progress. As the potential for progress increases, so does the chance to beat previously "impossible" content. I like this current situation. I like a challenge. I wanted this to be hard. My raid group spent a few hours last night on the Dread Guards just to work with this difficulty of the fight. At some point, we will move on to get gear. Once we get more gear, we'll come back to this fight until we can defeat it.

 

We found Writhing Horror to be a joke, and (based on the available information) Operator and Kephess don't look hard. I prefer there being content in the game that I can't beat. It helps me from feeling as arrogant as a lot of people seem to always feel.

[Krazy_Karl]

I'm no math expert to run the numbers and see what's being lost there, but between that and the need to be absolutely perfect in execution, I am also inclined to believe that it is slightly overtuned. After all, the reality of the current situation is that guilds are hitting enrage timers hard. If a simulated model does not represent the reality of the encounter, then the model has to be incorrect.

 

Stop trying to rationalize with KeyboardNinja. He is obviously correct, and all of us who spent the day ramming our heads directly into a brick wall are wrong. His napkin mathematical model obviously supersedes our actual testing. Our combat logs mean nothing.

 

All of the armchair raiders who are so quick to ask for it to be left alone are going to be the same set of people who will call for a nerf to the mechanics in a month (if it is left alone) because they will have never even seen the enrage timer.

 

I love that not one of these people crying L2P have even acknowledged the fact that the rest of the instance is tuned to a different level of difficulty. Bioware made a mistake... how is that not painfully obvious to everyone given their track record.

 

Regards,

KK

[Krazy_Karl]

No, but I think they've created a situation in which defeating all of the Nightmare content is actually a challenge. Can the entire NM instance be defeated right now? I don't know if the TFB Tantrum bug is present in NM, but the answer for everyone right now is: I don't know. Can parts of it be defeated? Yes. That means that progress can be made. As S&V is released, there stands the possibility of more progress. As the potential for progress increases, so does the chance to beat previously "impossible" content. I like this current situation. I like a challenge. I wanted this to be hard. My raid group spent a few hours last night on the Dread Guards just to work with this difficulty of the fight. At some point, we will move on to get gear. Once we get more gear, we'll come back to this fight until we can defeat it.

 

We found Writhing Horror to be a joke, and (based on the available information) Operator and Kephess don't look hard. I prefer there being content in the game that I can't beat. It helps me from feeling as arrogant as a lot of people seem to always feel.

 

You actually are arrogant for believing that at some point you will be able to defeat this encounter using current gear when all of the players who are better than you have clearly established there is a bug.

 

Regards,

KK

[blockheadsk]

I'm doing 1.2k on my sin. I know tam has a shadow so I assume the same. At 950 dps you're underperforming o-o

 

If you mean parsing. Sin tanks only do around 950 dps, but we also get a lot if energy back from getting so it goes up.

 

For the sake of clarity, here's my log. No I'm not a shadow, I play Vanguard.

TorParse Link

 

I don't want to be that guy, but I would love to see a log of someone doing 1.2k DPS as a tank, regardless of role. I'll concede my point if that is so, it's just as it stands, I don't know how it's possible to do that much damage.

 

I'm also confused, how can you say sins do 1.2k DPS, but only parse for 950 DPS? I don't understand that statement.

[Astarica]

 

I'm also confused, how can you say sins do 1.2k DPS, but only parse for 950 DPS? I don't understand that statement.

 

Because parse dummies don't fight back, which prevents you from gaining any Force from making defensive rolls (shield/parry/dodge).

[NoFishing]

Just a question, isn't the silence of the DEVs on this issue is an indication that there is nothing wrong ?

If we don't hear from them soon, it means just that.

 

This has been a complaint for, what, just over 24 hours. It isn't uncommon for BW to delay responding to threads/issues such as this for a couple of weeks, even when it relates to keystone content. Although complaints about cartel market item colors or patterns not matching the marketing tend to get more immediate responses, for some reason.

[Korse]

You actually are arrogant for believing that at some point you will be able to defeat this encounter using current gear when all of the players who are better than you have clearly established there is a bug.

 

Regards,

KK

 

After a couple hours on DG, I enjoyed seeing the progression my raid group made through the fight. While I may sometimes be arrogant within my raid group or guild, I have an extremely difficult time boasting in general because you never know who you're talking to on the internet. Obviously, you're the best player in the whole universe so we should all do what you say.

 

I change my entire argument. Krazy_Karl is the best player ever. BioWare should just ask him how to do everything.

[TenderDeath]

No, but I think they've created a situation in which defeating all of the Nightmare content is actually a challenge. Can the entire NM instance be defeated right now? I don't know if the TFB Tantrum bug is present in NM, but the answer for everyone right now is: I don't know. Can parts of it be defeated? Yes. That means that progress can be made. As S&V is released, there stands the possibility of more progress. As the potential for progress increases, so does the chance to beat previously "impossible" content. I like this current situation. I like a challenge. I wanted this to be hard. My raid group spent a few hours last night on the Dread Guards just to work with this difficulty of the fight. At some point, we will move on to get gear. Once we get more gear, we'll come back to this fight until we can defeat it.

 

 

We found Writhing Horror to be a joke, and (based on the available information) Operator and Kephess don't look hard. I prefer there being content in the game that I can't beat. It helps me from feeling as arrogant as a lot of people seem to always feel.

 

You will get no argument from me as to the challenge. Personally, I wanted to go back to DG and display better attempts because that's the way I am about progression. If the intention of BW was to parallel raids, then they should have pursued a simultaneous release of both NiM modes.

 

Just because guilds expect to learn and comprehend NiM fights in a single set of attempts doesn't discount their ability. With 100 days played on my marauder, I expect to do my job quite well. That is not arrogance, that is just fact. When I make mistakes, I admit them readily before improving. And, so long as a fight isn't broken (I won't even take the time to remind of all the failed coding on previous bosses from previous operations), I expect to be able to complete an operation that is fully released. If BW did true diligence with the testing, they would have made the final bosses extremely impossible while leaving the first ones as gearing to that progression. We give undue credit to BW for what is almost certainly a mistake.

 

Much respect goes out to the guilds that are throwing their lives at DG for however long it may take. It would be great to see someone down it, and I really mean that. Whether that method is intended or argued as reliable pre-75/72 mix, doubtful.

 

I maintain my "arrogance", although I don't like that we skipped DG so soon, it was not my decision.

Edited June 13, 2013 by TenderDeath

[Krazy_Karl]

After a couple hours on DG, I enjoyed seeing the progression my raid group made through the fight. While I may sometimes be arrogant within my raid group or guild, I have an extremely difficult time boasting in general because you never know who you're talking to on the internet. Obviously, you're the best player in the whole universe so we should all do what you say.

 

I change my entire argument. Krazy_Karl is the best player ever. BioWare should just ask him how to do everything.

 

I am glad you recognized your error.

 

Regards,

KK

Edited June 13, 2013 by Krazy_Karl

[Shandellon]

No you can't, and no it isn't.

 

Just beacuse you are not capable of doing this, dont deny other guilds a fight they look forward to

[TenderDeath]

Just beacuse you are not capable of doing this, dont deny other guilds a fight they look forward to

 

It is dangerous to stake one's reputation by claiming something is impossible, and I don't see the point in doing so.

[NoFishing]

I don't want to be that guy, but I would love to see a log of someone doing 1.2k DPS as a tank, regardless of role. I'll concede my point if that is so, it's just as it stands, I don't know how it's possible to do that much damage.

 

I don't have a log for you, but I know a few tanks that, once they reach their mitigation and endurance goals, itemize for a bit more damage. Things like swapping out an endurance crystal for power, or a high endurance armoring for high main stat, can make a big difference in DPS output (and obviously, threat generation). I don't know of any that rock a full set of gear this way, but one or two pieces should be quite common at the highest levels of play.

Edited June 13, 2013 by NoFishing

[mastirkal]

I don't have a log for you, but I know a few tanks that, once they reach their mitigation and endurance goals, itemize for a bit more damage. Things like swapping out an endurance crystal for power, or a high endurance armoring for high main stat, can make a big difference in DPS output (and obviously, threat generation). I don't know of any that rock a full set of gear this way, but one or two pieces should be quite common at the highest levels of play.

 

Sins/shadows can hit it with non-lettered mods. It really solidifies their position of "dps who can tank".

Edited June 13, 2013 by mastirkal

[JDotter]

You actually are arrogant for believing that at some point you will be able to defeat this encounter using current gear when all of the players who are better than you have clearly established there is a bug.

 

Regards,

KK

 

lol

 

Do you to have the five best dps that play swtor?

 

Regards

 

Milas

Edited June 13, 2013 by JDotter

[mastirkal]

lol

 

Do you to have the five best dps that play swtor?

 

Regards

 

Milas

... Do you?

[Shandellon]

You actually are arrogant for believing that at some point you will be able to defeat this encounter using current gear when all of the players who are better than you have clearly established there is a bug.

 

Regards,

KK

Dont remember myself saying there's a bug

 

Its just difficult, nothing more. Bug would be lighting dealing 50k, not 15k, or Kelsara not taking damage, or something like this. Tight enrage is just something to beat

Edited June 13, 2013 by Shandellon

[mastirkal]

Dont remember myself saying there's a bug

 

Its just difficult, nothing more. Bug would be lighting dealing 50k, not 15k, or Kelsara not taking damage, or something like this. Tight enrage is just something to beat

 

I'm curious when a tight enrage becomes an unbeatable enrage.

Edited June 13, 2013 by mastirkal