BioWare – Why do you treat PvP like how the Empire treats aliens?

[MrJurgens]

Seriously? What's the problem?

 

I love PvP, but ever since 2.0 hit I've stopped PvPing as much as I did before. I PvP'd so much. I have one character that's Valor 100, with another soon to be one. I would PvP so much I would only do the BH, Ilum and Section X dailies when I was really poor, so that I could augment and min/max my gear into adaptive gear.

 

Even after you fixed the naked, augment, enhancement and PvE armor exploits—which the latter is still around somewhat, from what I've heard—PvP is still overall broken with bolster. I have a lot more fun PvPing on the forums because there's no bolster here for the carebears.

 

I've just had enough about how the way PvP has been treated lately. I did see a dev post about how they said they loved PvP, but how many people do you have that love PvP? Seems to me more of you love the Cartel Market.

 

I've been here on the forums since '09. Collector's Edition owner, and been here since beta. I ended my subscription sometime last month, but you got a couple of months to do something pretty major with PvP to keep me in and feed you 12.99/mo. As of this moment, the next best thing I've been doing is leveling more characters. I have 17 total in my legacy; 5 that are already lv. 55 with one more well on the way. I'm breezing through this leveling stacking the legacy buffs and Major XP boosts, so you guys better do something quick or I'm out of here.

 

TL;DR – Basically I'm a disgruntled SWTOR PvP'er. You haven't addressed much of the definitive issues about PvP, and when you do it's just a meaningless wall of text that has been said before. PvP has been a trainwreck since 2.0. PvP still needs a major buff in handing out XP (because I refuse to do planet quests), and it should really give out a lot more credits than what its worth. And most importantly, PvP has been in maintenance mode for a long while now. I will stay unsubbed until you guys start showing more appreciate to the other playstyles, because I'm pretty sure PvE ain't the only one. An MMO is like a buffet, and I'd like to eat what I like—not what I don't.

 

>Inb4 can I have your stuff? No, you may not. I'd rather die with the little money I have left.

>Inb4 "QQ/complainer/whiner/hater". I pay my 12.99/mo to post on these forums, so I have every right to post how I feel about the game.

>Inb4 50,000 players coming in and out per server. (Sorry Pistols, I just HAD to )

 

R.I.P. Star Wars™: The Old Republic™

Enter: CC Wars™: The Cartel Republic™

Edited June 8, 2013 by MrJurgens

[Merwanor]

First of all, your TL;DR part is almost the same length as the main part :S

 

Second, I'd rather they focus on what makes this game unique and different than other MMOs, which is story based PvE content. PvP always comes in the way of great PvE content, like skills being changed to fit PvP but then it hurts the effectiveness of some class in PvE. For instance all the complaining that the Project ability was not the same as the shock skill for inquisitors, and they changed it and now it looks boring.

 

If there was no PvP, there would be so much less QQing about balance this class or nerf that class, so much pointless work that goes into trying to balance classes is like 80% because of PvP issues.

 

The only case where PvP has been close to being balanced was when they added lots of PvE elements to it, as the old Alterac Valley in WoW had a feel of a real battle, where you had to push the frontlines, and this was done mostly by working together to summon stronger PvE mobs. It was insane how long a battle could last, I remember on my server there was a fight that laster over 3 days. It was the only time I had fun with PvP as it felt like a battle and not like some idiotic arena.

 

But PvP can never be truly balanced in games like this, it is not possible, and it has never been done, and I believe it can never be done. You would have to remove the unfair advantages of better gear and put everyone on equal grounds at all times, where the only factor is skill and not stats. The worst idea in PvP is specific stats that make you stronger against other players, it has just made things even more unbalanced.

 

Now let the flaming begin

[therandyman]

Because PvPers are like the Evocii. If you contrast how the Evocii see themselves vs. how others see them, that's how PvPers see themselves vs. how others see them.

 

"They're ugly, they're stupid..." - random NPC on Hutta

 

The question is, what is it about PvPers that causes others to perceive them that way?

[branmakmuffin]

Because PvPers are like the Evocii. If you contrast how the Evocii see themselves vs. how others see them, that's how PvPers see themselves vs. how others see them.

 

"They're ugly, they're stupid..." - random NPC on Hutta

 

The question is, what is it about PvPers that causes others to perceive them that way?

Classic. Two thumbs up. Best reply to PvP QQing I've ever seen.

[terzappi]

are you really thinking pvers are treated better?

[Ghost_Spectre]

The question is, what is it about PvPers that causes others to perceive them that way?

 

For starters one could say; it’s about their arrogance, their self-importance, selfishness, self-centeredness, condescending attitude, demeaning, debasing casual PvP players, all the while they look down their noses at PvE players, and ridicule any and everyone who questions the status quo. Furthermore, they believe they are the reason the game exists and the game universe centers around them. I could go on, but you should get the picture.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Ghost_Spectre

[Ghost_Spectre]

are you really thinking pvers are treated better?

 

I'd not say that either. There are plenty of richard cranium PvE players running around, in and out of this game. PvP players happen to be the loudest of them on in my not so humble opinion. Let me clarify that, the hardcore elite PvP players that is.

[kodrac]

For starters one could say; it’s about their arrogance, their self-importance, selfishness, self-centeredness, condescending attitude, demeaning, debasing casual PvP players, all the while they look down their noses at PvE players, and ridicule any and everyone who questions the status quo. Furthermore, they believe they are the reason the game exists and the game universe centers around them. I could go on, but you should get the picture.

 

Hmmm, I could say the exact same thing about raiders just swap the PvP and PvE there.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Hmmm, I could say the exact same thing about raiders just swap the PvP and PvE there.

 

Yes, one can. However, the question was concerning the perception of PvP players. Hence, my answer.

[Grayseven]

To the OP:

 

What is your problem? You talk about problems with PvP but fail to cite any examples nor give any suggestions on how you would fix it.

 

Since it's player versus player, what more do you need? It's not like there aren't other people on you can fight. It isn't like you don't know where to find other players since Makeb should be pretty full...

 

I'm not suggesting that there aren't problems with PvP, but you can't whine about PvP being treated badly without giving some examples and possible solutions, otherwise no one will take you seriously and write the entire post off as mindless QQ.

 

Edit: Ah, I see. You feel anything that makes PvP competitive is bad. Bolster is your problem because it lets "carebears" beat you.

 

Carebears don't PvP. Carebears only PvE and complain about PvPer's whining and tying up resources that could be better used to make new raids.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Grayseven

[AelixVII]

I wonder if what happened was, someone though the recurring Gree event with its 'PvP elements' was enough on the schedule for PvP updates this year to keep players happy. Edited June 8, 2013 by AelixVII

[MrJurgens]

I wonder if what happened was, someone though the recurring Gree event with its 'PvP elements' was enough on the schedule for PvP updates this year to keep players happy.

That Gree event was nothing more than a PvE-centric area with an Open World skin slapped on it. It was a major letdown. I've only been there very few times, and only went there like 2 times the 2nd time the event was out. I'd prefer BW bring back vanilla Ilum. Least there was no PvE there whatsoever. Though vanilla Ilum had its cons (lots of them), I'd even pay with Cartel Coins to bring it back.

 

And Ghost-Spectre, no offense but PvE'ers like yourself say things like that to describe most of the PvP community. PvE'ers can be the exact same way, and they can be just as vocal as the PvP'ers.

 

My problem isn't class balance and what's OP. I didn't even mention anything about class balance in my thread. I just mentioned how it seems like BW doesn't care about PvP. PvP has been taking a ride in the backseat for way too long now. The game's main focus is now the Cartel Market, and just slightly behind is PvE.

 

Ranked WZs are about to enter its 1st year anniversary. That Gree event was nothing but a Section X 2.0. And the last Warzone, Ancient Hypergate, got old the first week it was out (and I say that because I really hate that WZ). BW needs to try harder with its PvP'ers because PvE isn't the only playstyle in MMOs.

[MrJurgens]

First of all, your TL;DR part is almost the same length as the main part :S

No, not really.

 

Second, I'd rather they focus on what makes this game unique and different than other MMOs, which is story based PvE content. PvP always comes in the way of great PvE content, like skills being changed to fit PvP but then it hurts the effectiveness of some class in PvE. For instance all the complaining that the Project ability was not the same as the shock skill for inquisitors, and they changed it and now it looks boring.

The thing is, that isn't my play style, and it's not the only one for MMOs. The gamers who prefer PvE think PvP should just be abolished in MMOs, some of the reasons being what you said. I think that the MMO community wouldn't thrive as much and would lose A LOT of players if PvP was ignored completely in almost every single MMO released.

 

That "story-driven" experience you're looking for may not continue as the quality is had at 1–50. It'll probably be released in similar versions of Makeb. BW has stated previously on the issues that prevented them from continuing class story, but I'm fine with that because all I like to focus on is PvP.

 

As for the Project ability, I would have to say that could affect PvE as well. I'm not sure if the issue was mainly because it was slower than the Inquisitor's Shock (and for me it sure did feel like it), but I'm glad they fixed it to make it look as fast and feel just as powerful as Shock. The balance there was needed.

 

If there was no PvP, there would be so much less QQing about balance this class or nerf that class, so much pointless work that goes into trying to balance classes is like 80% because of PvP issues.

Problem is PvP is a fundamental play style of MMOs. Some like it, and some don't. I happen to love it, and I just completely try to do as much less PvE as possible because I find it static, uninteresting, and just very boring that brings no challenge.

 

The problem with me trying to avoid PvE is that that (and crafting) is what keeps you afloat. Strictly PvPing makes you so poor, and doesn't really help if you want to use some kind of adaptive gear and add augments in it. I don't craft because I usually find myself making a little profit that takes a while grow over the time I train in it, and it sometimes backfires because it can cost more before you can try to make a profit from it.

 

The only case where PvP has been close to being balanced was when they added lots of PvE elements to it, as the old Alterac Valley in WoW had a feel of a real battle, where you had to push the frontlines, and this was done mostly by working together to summon stronger PvE mobs. It was insane how long a battle could last, I remember on my server there was a fight that laster over 3 days. It was the only time I had fun with PvP as it felt like a battle and not like some idiotic arena.

Well whether BW shows love to the Arenas or Open World, it doesn't matter to me. PvP content is PvP content to me, and I'd appreciate it if BW started caring more about this play style they keep forcing to take a hike for PvE—and most unfortunately—the Cartel Market.

 

I don't care if I have PvE mobs or not. I'm guessing that's a +1 for you because it adds PvE elements to the PvP play style. Since you like PvE, I can see where you're coming from, but I wouldn't mind the PvE mobs myself. I think it would add to the PvP dynamics, and I love that because PvP is so dynamic.

 

But PvP can never be truly balanced in games like this, it is not possible, and it has never been done, and I believe it can never be done. You would have to remove the unfair advantages of better gear and put everyone on equal grounds at all times, where the only factor is skill and not stats. The worst idea in PvP is specific stats that make you stronger against other players, it has just made things even more unbalanced.

 

Now let the flaming begin

I'm not sure if you thought part of my thread was me complaining about class balance, but it's not. I know how to play my classes and I love the challenge going against other FOTM spec classes.

[MrJurgens]

To the OP:

 

What is your problem? You talk about problems with PvP but fail to cite any examples nor give any suggestions on how you would fix it.

 

Since it's player versus player, what more do you need? It's not like there aren't other people on you can fight. It isn't like you don't know where to find other players since Makeb should be pretty full...

 

I'm not suggesting that there aren't problems with PvP, but you can't whine about PvP being treated badly without giving some examples and possible solutions, otherwise no one will take you seriously and write the entire post off as mindless QQ.

 

Edit: Ah, I see. You feel anything that makes PvP competitive is bad. Bolster is your problem because it lets "carebears" beat you.

 

Carebears don't PvP. Carebears only PvE and complain about PvPer's whining and tying up resources that could be better used to make new raids.

I did cite examples. Probably not as many as you'd like, but it's there.

 

Bolster has just been one giant clusterf**k, and as it continues to exist I doubt BW will be able to make it as good as it was pre-2.0.

 

Additionally, no new major content planned for PvP. I hear another tier of gear is coming up, and I just find that completely ridiculous and almost unnecessary. To me it sounds like BW is trying to keep the PvP player-base occupied so they have more time to come up with something, and really, it's just way too late for most of us since BW has ignored the PvP community long enough now.

 

On my final note, yay for the upcoming anniversary of Pre-Season of Ranked Warzones!

[DorkTrooper]

and really, it's just way too late for most of us since BW has ignored the PvP community long enough now.

 

I'm going to guess that this is the answer to your original question. I suspect that a large chunk of the dedicated PvP community (primarily leveling with PvP/hardly touching quests, etc) left by about 2.0.

[Hyfy]

For starters one could say; it’s about their arrogance, their self-importance, selfishness, self-centeredness, condescending attitude, demeaning, debasing casual PvP players, all the while they look down their noses at PvE players, and ridicule any and everyone who questions the status quo. Furthermore, they believe they are the reason the game exists and the game universe centers around them. I could go on, but you should get the picture.

 

 

Which becomes evident when you see them, unprovoked even, using terms like "carebear" to describe anyone who doesn't think PvP is the end all be all of every game. Sorry OP, but part of the problem you all can blame on yourselves for making your own selfs pariahs.

[KennethHoover]

For starters one could say; it’s about their arrogance, their self-importance, selfishness, self-centeredness, condescending attitude, demeaning, debasing casual PvP players, all the while they look down their noses at PvE players, and ridicule any and everyone who questions the status quo. Furthermore, they believe they are the reason the game exists and the game universe centers around them. I could go on, but you should get the picture.

 

^I mostly PVP but there's a lot of truth in this.

[Icestar]

I've been here on the forums since '09. Collector's Edition owner, and been here since beta.

 

How did you manage to be here on the forums since ´09 and have a registration number or 8427893. Seems very wierd to me.

 

Anyway, you have to wait until the "veteran PvP" community writes something, they clearly listens to them as the DEVs stated in a post a few days ago.

 

And...if you write exactly what change you want it will be easier to give feedback

Edited June 9, 2013 by Icestar

[Darth_Moonshadow]

For starters one could say; it’s about their arrogance, their self-importance, selfishness, self-centeredness, condescending attitude, demeaning, debasing casual PvP players, all the while they look down their noses at PvE players, and ridicule any and everyone who questions the status quo. Furthermore, they believe they are the reason the game exists and the game universe centers around them. I could go on, but you should get the picture.

 

Let's not forget how every PVP complaint is just a veiled "I got killed" thread. PVPers never complain that the start gate doesn't open or how their stuns didn't deploy. No, the gist of every PVP complaint is "I got killed and it's clearly the developer favoring X class". It's never their fault they got killed. Not skill or their crappy gear. No, it's always the developer error. That is why no one takes PVPers seriously. You can't admit to your own shortcomings. It's always "lag" or "overpowered classes" or "terrible map design".

 

Is it really that hard to just admit you sucked that round? PVEers have bad raid night. RPers have crap stories. Stop acting like your E-peen is your lifeline and just get over it.

[Wraithwarr]

To the OP:

 

What is your problem? You talk about problems with PvP but fail to cite any examples nor give any suggestions on how you would fix it.

 

Since it's player versus player, what more do you need? It's not like there aren't other people on you can fight. It isn't like you don't know where to find other players since Makeb should be pretty full...

 

I'm not suggesting that there aren't problems with PvP, but you can't whine about PvP being treated badly without giving some examples and possible solutions, otherwise no one will take you seriously and write the entire post off as mindless QQ.

.

 

Looks like you're not mister current events, let me try to bring you up to speed

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=645792

 

The fact level 54 crafted purples are BiS for warzones right now is frustrating to say the least. The truth of the matter is, if Bioware had created a bolster system so that PvPers could be bolstered to the level of Verpine gear inside of Ops, you would all be screaming bloody murder. Do you know see the frustration? There have been dozens if not hundreds of good ideas on the PvP forums for fixing this issue.

 

The bolster system is great in theory, most PvPers welcome the idea of having teammates that have a decent amount of expertise, but as of right now the system is broken, and it has taken a big part of the game away for a large number of people.

[Hizoka]

Because PvPers are like the Evocii. If you contrast how the Evocii see themselves vs. how others see them, that's how PvPers see themselves vs. how others see them.

 

"They're ugly, they're stupid..." - random NPC on Hutta

 

The question is, what is it about PvPers that causes others to perceive them that way?

oh oh i know!!!!!

 

they are lazy they are almost always bad players, and they blame their badness on everything but their own ability to play. It is always the gears fault the classes fault or something never the fact they are bad.

[Hizoka]

No, not really.

 

 

The thing is, that isn't my play style, and it's not the only one for MMOs. The gamers who prefer PvE think PvP should just be abolished in MMOs, some of the reasons being what you said. I think that the MMO community wouldn't thrive as much and would lose A LOT of players if PvP was ignored completely in almost every single MMO released.

 

That "story-driven" experience you're looking for may not continue as the quality is had at 1–50. It'll probably be released in similar versions of Makeb. BW has stated previously on the issues that prevented them from continuing class story, but I'm fine with that because all I like to focus on is PvP.

 

As for the Project ability, I would have to say that could affect PvE as well. I'm not sure if the issue was mainly because it was slower than the Inquisitor's Shock (and for me it sure did feel like it), but I'm glad they fixed it to make it look as fast and feel just as powerful as Shock. The balance there was needed.

 

 

Problem is PvP is a fundamental play style of MMOs. Some like it, and some don't. I happen to love it, and I just completely try to do as much less PvE as possible because I find it static, uninteresting, and just very boring that brings no challenge.

 

The problem with me trying to avoid PvE is that that (and crafting) is what keeps you afloat. Strictly PvPing makes you so poor, and doesn't really help if you want to use some kind of adaptive gear and add augments in it. I don't craft because I usually find myself making a little profit that takes a while grow over the time I train in it, and it sometimes backfires because it can cost more before you can try to make a profit from it.

 

 

Well whether BW shows love to the Arenas or Open World, it doesn't matter to me. PvP content is PvP content to me, and I'd appreciate it if BW started caring more about this play style they keep forcing to take a hike for PvE—and most unfortunately—the Cartel Market.

 

I don't care if I have PvE mobs or not. I'm guessing that's a +1 for you because it adds PvE elements to the PvP play style. Since you like PvE, I can see where you're coming from, but I wouldn't mind the PvE mobs myself. I think it would add to the PvP dynamics, and I love that because PvP is so dynamic.

 

 

I'm not sure if you thought part of my thread was me complaining about class balance, but it's not. I know how to play my classes and I love the challenge going against other FOTM spec classes.

actually LOTRO had a larger sub base then wow did in the US when it was sub only and it had no PvP to speak of... So you are flat wrong like pretty much every PvPer is when it comes to real things MMO.

[Wraithwarr]

actually LOTRO had a larger sub base then wow did in the US when it was sub only and it had no PvP to speak of... So you are flat wrong like pretty much every PvPer is when it comes to real things MMO.

 

This is not true, Lotro never even broke a million.

[Hizoka]

This is not true, Lotro never even broke a million.

 

actauly it broke 2.5 it had the largest market share for nearly a year in the north american demographic. Just because you do not know how to use google to find that out does not make it false.

[CaptRavenous]

PvPers are second-class citizens, everyone knows that!

 

You must be a PvPer if you don't know that.