SWTOR Boss Guides Killing The Game?

[Onaga]

Hi All,

Now, please bare with me as I type this. I do not want to start a flame war here with those who are pro and those who are con to the thought. I also do not want to hypocritical. Please be aware that my guild has used guides.

 

Are SWTOR Boss Guides killing the game? I ask this because shortly after 2.0 was launched, a so called "expansion," I found myself wandering fleet once again with nothing to do. Max reputation, all content cleared, full Underworld, 12 alts, and avoidance of PvP (due to such terrible Imperial players) have forced me to do other games for the time being. And this goes for others, too.

 

My only real concern with guides are the step by step instructions of Boss Encounters in various Operations. Where is the line between being an elite content clearing guild and a guild that can read instructions? I cannot answer this question, as I personally do not use guides (note personally, not my guild). I like to be able to figure things out, such as the GSI Pleasure Speeder, Archon, and other challenging missions. Operations, I feel, should be no different. Let the players figure out an encounter for them selves. Let them figure out why they wiped, why someone died, why someone got a debuff they shouldn't have, what they can do to prevent it, and how can they alter their initial strategies. This makes the kill and the loot that much sweeter and more valuable.

 

An example from personal experience is the MMORPG Age of Conan. A small MMO with lots of tough content should be a guide within itself. Why? Because there were no guides for Boss Encounters. There were no step by step instructions to expansions, new content, or new instances. It was all on the player to figure it out and in the end, content was cleared slower, thus yielding more satisfaction from the kill that took months to figure out and practice. The third tier of raids, Thoth-Amon's Stronghold, was not completed by anyone for more than a year. But slowly and surely, guilds across the game plucked away at it until they cleared it. The same went for the fourth tier of raiding. Which, at the time, had not been cleared since the launch of Rise of the Godslayer Expansion (which was not cleared until nearly 3 years after its launch).

 

Now, I know people could care less about another game, but I just wanted to share why that game lasted longer than it probably should have. If there were guides for that game, for guilds to read and follow, that game would have been dead within a year (after its re-launch due to horrific bugs and glitches). Should the same fate become of SWTOR? Is content being cleared SO fast that the game has become less and less about current content and more about following a set of written out instructions to get it done and stand on fleet waiting for something else to happen, instead of creating strategies and practicing? If so.... that's not good.

 

Already there are guides on the internet about how to clear content that is not presently available yet. Just once, let the players learn and play and succeed on their own terms from start to finish. I am not criticizing the amazing work, research and effort that the people have put into creating these guides, but rather asking them if they should continue? Don't get me wrong, a tip or two does not hurt when asked for, don't get me wrong. But anyone can follow a set of instructions (generally).

 

Thank you for reading this, and thank you for taking the time to reply. Please remember this is not an attempt to instigate a flame war, so please try to avoid such comments.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Onaga

[TheNahash]

Although I completely agree with you, that is the nature of MMOs these days.

People can't be bothered to learn the tactics themselves. They just want to clear everything as fast as possible and then get back to their "OMG there's nothing to do" QQ.

 

The only solution I could see is joining a guild or deciding as a guild (if you're already in one) to not look up the tactics before you do a new raid for the first time.

[itsmymillertime]

Don't read the guides.

 

/thread

[Merwanor]

One of the reasons I don't raid in most MMOs is because if you join a raid, people expect you to know the tactics before doing it. Which just removes the whole point in experiencing an encounter, so many times I have been kicked out of a raid because they asked if everyone knew tactics, and I say no. Then boom, I am kicked.

 

Reading tactics before going into the raid is like reading spoilers for a book.

[Hizoka]

One of the reasons I don't raid in most MMOs is because if you join a raid, people expect you to know the tactics before doing it. Which just removes the whole point in experiencing an encounter, so many times I have been kicked out of a raid because they asked if everyone knew tactics, and I say no. Then boom, I am kicked.

 

Reading tactics before going into the raid is like reading spoilers for a book.

while i agree... the strats to these boss fights are so obvious that you only need common sense to figure them out while fighting them.

[Superman_AZ]

While I agree that knowing tactics ahead of time is cheating... I mean... research, I'm afraid you won't find many who will Raid without knowing the fight ahead of time. Most people are on a timetable and cannot sit in the same op for 2 hours trying to kill 5 bosses. Knowing the fights insures a less painful completion and people actually knowing the fights. More pew pew and less standing in fire, at least we would hope. I prefer learning for myself, but most groups will just /kick you if you don't know the fight, or don't at least try to learn them.

[MSchuyler]

Don't read the guides.

 

/thread

 

Most people WON'T read the guides anyway. So it's a non-issue. If some people do read the guides, how does it affect anyone but them? The nature of the game is essentially personal. If someone wants to read a guide to gain insight, it may allow them to level faster, but that's no different than someone taking advantage of 2XP weekends or XP boosts.

 

As an example, how are you ever going to find a Datacron without a guide? I have stumbled upon one so far and most of them are in such obscure, hard to get to places as to make them effectively invisible.

 

The bottom line is that reading a guide of any sort is optional and personal. It's not in any way "Killing the Game" and certainly does not affect you.

[Caelrie]

I'm always amazed at how many MMO gamers are so self-centered that they confuse "killing the game" with "ruining the game for me", as if they're the same thing.

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

Quite a dillema here, I must admit... To read the guide or not to...

 

Why read the guide?

 

A good reason is that software developers create creatures that are in fact game rule breaking, that is given abilities and invulnerabilities that are frankly arbitrary. One could argue, that it is those arbitrary super-powers that make the scenario challenging, and you would not be wrong. But the problem with those game breaking features, is that the player if forced to defeat that monster in the "one and only" way the developer envisioned it to be. As a result to the "one-and-only-one" game design practice, it reduces the players to endure a trial error technique to stumble on the software developer coded "weakness" there is no analysis or tatctic or strategy on this short of a pattern of activities designed to eventually expose the arbitrary weakness.

 

This is worse if the arbitrary monster's weakness can only be discovered and exploited if a variety of different classed players with very specific builds just happen to combine their efforts in a very specific way for it to be realized.

 

I will tell you as a casual player, I find it abominable to go into a boss and have to trial error the way to defeat him, as opposed of having graphical clues and what not that would help lead me as to what to do specifically, its even more annoying if different discoveries must be performed by different players in order to achieve that too.

 

So as a result, as a casual player, thank you for having the guide available. If you are hard core, and really have the patience, well don't read the guide and experiment till you discover the appropriate sequence of actions and events.

 

I particularly do not like raids, for its pretty much a forced by the developer recipe book proceess where all the players must know where to stand, what particular ability to engage at that time and place, move to this exact spot and use another ability, etc. There is no free style, is just a ballet effort. This is really bad, when you have the results oriented players, who obviously wants to succed (who can blame them? Not I for sure) and thus they will ensure you have the right gear, build, and exact knowledge of the choreography just must follow. I did not join the ballet when i was a little girl, and as an adult I certainly have no desire in joining one either.

 

If developers would make the bosses less totally game breakers and allow for multiple ways to defeat the monster as opposed to hard scripting what players most do, would definetly ease the need for guides and would make raids a lot more fun.

 

Sue

[wainot-keel]

The only solution I could see is joining a guild or deciding as a guild (if you're already in one) to not look up the tactics before you do a new raid for the first time.

 

I've seen a few guilds that specifically demand their members to not read guides so they can figure things out for themselves.

 

To the OP, those are just guides showing a fight's mechanics, not a step by step set of instructions. If it was, every guild would have had TfB and S&V hm on farm from week 1. That's far, far from the truth. I know there are guilds that haven't cleared EC NiM at the moment even with more gear and 5 more levels. No matter how many guides are out there.

 

You're talking about guides as if they were a autowin. They are not.

 

Pug TfB and S&V through group finder and check people's achievements and count how many of them cleared those ops in HM. Either most aren't reading the guides or your theory about guides making everything easy and killing the game is flawed.....

Edited June 5, 2013 by wainot-keel

[Pigdaddy]

Form my understanding there have been strats out for PVE content since way back in the EQ days (yes inc AoC as well).

My suggestion has always been, and honestly it will never happen cos ya'll pve folk would just totally loose your s..t, Is to make PvE like PvP.. RANDOM...('ish).

 

EG, BOSS X - 3 phases,

 

Phase1: Tank & spank

Phase2: Tank switch and AoE heal raid damage

Phase 3: Stack+tank switch (interrupt "Unlimited Power") with some other memorable mechanic till dead.

 

Sounds pretty familiar yeah?.. well it should.. I did it in wow, did it here, as many thousands have before and after me. NOW..

Let's spice it up a little.. BOSS X - 3 phases

 

Phase1: dunno....

Phase2: raid wiped cos of unlimited power

phase3: again dunno.

 

PvP.. is essentially random('ish) .. sure you have a bloody good % chance of knowing ur gonna get cc'd.. but maybe you don't?.. maybe player X does something different. PvE is scripted.. predictable, and ultimately boring. Now please don't go all nuts cos I said that, I enjoy PvE content and it's what I first used to do in my MMO life.. just now for the dynamic nature of the battle and pure adrenaline rush I go PvP.

[ninjonxb]

The problem is real life.

 

There is a fairly small portion of, really any MMO that can devote 15+ hours a week to try to figure out mechanics on their own.

 

However people still want to progress though content. Even with the guides (at least the ones I have read) they don't tell you exactly what to do. They more give you information to figure it out on your own.

 

With the guides. A raid group can run twice a week for a few hours and still manage to get through content instead of spending all that time raiding and maybe down 1 boss even possibly out of pure luck.

 

On top of that. For most people. Wiping over and over again because there is some thing that you are trying to figure out and you are hoping to catch a debuff, ability, or something else before you die/wipe can be very frustrating and ultimately push you away from the game.

[SweetsPatogga]

Besides the fact that I don't personally agree with this (let people do what they want in their free time), what you are essentially asking for is an information embargo and those never work in the age of the internet. If repressive regimes can't pull that off I doubt one guy who doesn't want people to get the Cliffs Notes prior to a boss battle will be able to.

 

Another point I want to mention is that based on my own personal experience guides are all well and good but they can't make up for experience and even when you read one it doesn't instantly make you an expert and you still need to actually DO it and experience it. In other words, the guides give you tips that help, they don't win the battle for you.

 

It's not much different than asking a buddy for advice. Actually in my guild we do that. If a group is tackling a new op for them we'll grab someone who has been through it and pick his or her brain but even then it still can be tricky and is a bit of a learning experience since no amount of words can make up for just basic experience, at least not for the way I personally learn.

 

I don't see where the guides are that much different than just asking a guildmate for advice.

 

Again, you aren't going to stop information from getting posted on the net so it's a waste of time to try. Perhaps you should just play the game your way and let other people play the game their way, live and let live.

 

I'm sorry if you feel like other people taking shortcuts is ruining your eliteness but it is what it is. If you know you were successful at tackling a boss and learning the hard way then nothing anyone else does takes away from that.

[Rehneu]

Don't read the guides.

 

/thread

 

My thoughts exactly.

[shadowrouge]

One of the reasons I don't raid in most MMOs is because if you join a raid, people expect you to know the tactics before doing it. Which just removes the whole point in experiencing an encounter, so many times I have been kicked out of a raid because they asked if everyone knew tactics, and I say no. Then boom, I am kicked.

 

Reading tactics before going into the raid is like reading spoilers for a book.

 

Which is one of the worst parts about it. You can read a guide all you want until you do it you DON'T know the OP.

Reading about it or watching a video is fine to many. But they want you to actually have done it not just read a guide or watched a video.

 

Yet how can you know the OP if you cant get in to a group to do it. That is why I only raid with my guild. we don't use guides or use youtube to see whats you. we gather and run it. A lot more fun that way.

[branmakmuffin]

I'm always amazed at how many MMO gamers are so self-centered that they confuse "killing the game" with "ruining the game for me", as if they're the same thing.

Heh, heh. Best post in the thread.

[VigDiath]

I know guilds/people who read and study the guides and still cannot beat boss encounters.

 

The guides offer assistance to those looking for it and to those who don't have the time to spend wiping on a boss over and over again for an attempt to clear content.

 

One of the guilds I'm in, we have members who go to school, work full time, travel for work, have families and cannot spend hours trying to figure out a bosses mechanics into the wee hours of the night. Most nights, mine and others, playtime ends anywhere from 11pm to 12pm. If we start at 7 and can't clear something by 11...I'm done for the night. So NOT knowing boss encounters is not an option for me. And it hasn't killed the game for me either. I play on 5-6 toons a week at level 55 and more at lower levels so I'll never run out of things to do in this game

[itsmymillertime]

As an example, how are you ever going to find a Datacron without a guide? I have stumbled upon one so far and most of them are in such obscure, hard to get to places as to make them effectively invisible.

 

Bioware said you are supposed to search for them. Its called exploring.

[Jeweledleah]

for as long as video games have existed? there were guides for them.

single player games or MMO's alike.

back in a day when internet wasn't as accepsible, those guides came in book form - official strategy guides. those still get written, they are just not as popular, since free user writtne guides published online tend to be more in depth.

 

several things to note.

 

You don't have to read the guide. if you want to figure things out yourself? by all means - do so! I personally didn't read any guides for microbinocular/seeker droid chains. it took me much longer to finish them as a result, but I had fun figuring them out (at least puzzle parts - jump parts can go die in a fire).

you could also try and find like minded people to figure things out together with. like those people who write the guides for example - THEY go in blind. they just share their findings with the rest of us.

 

however. when you chose to join a random pug? you adopt to THEIR prefered method of doing things, this is the case where majority and/or organizers of the tun take precedence (you COULD always attempt to organize a pug of your own, that goes in blind - NO one is stopping you)

the truth is - wiping on new content and figuring out how it works without help tends to be fun when you are with friends, and not so fun when you are with strangers. so when strangers either expect you to know the tactics or at least follow tactics they explain to you? YOU made the choice to join this group of strangers.

 

boss guides are not killing the game. they never have.

 

P.S. personally, I ALWAYS read spoilers for the books, movies, etc. why? because it allows me to relax and enjoy the story fully instead of rushing to the end to find out what happens, skipping a lot of fun stuff in a process. others feel differently. contrary to a popular belief, there's a place for variety of preferences in this world and in this game.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[MSchuyler]

Bioware said you are supposed to search for them. Its called exploring.

 

Seriously? Have you (or anyone else here) ever randomly "explored" a planet and just happened upon a Datacron? (Well, as I said, I have one time, so it IS possible.) Here's a typical Datacron "exploration."

 

Walk through an area deep underground, pull a mob of five and take them out. Then jump up on some random boxes, one to another until you are on top of a shelf. This will take a dozen tries because you will fall off quite a few times, so you have to be persistent. Also, the mob will re-spawn so you may have to take them out a few times. Jump from the shelf to the top of an awning, another near-impossible feat. Now just stand there and within half an hour or so a flying dirigible will just happen by. Jump on that (without falling on the floor and dying) and travel in this blimp thingie to a high location in the building where you walk along a ledge, jump over several cracks (hoping not to die) and then jump down on a scaffolding and inch along a ledge. At the end of the platform will be the Datacron.

 

So grab it and then reverse the process, or, better yet, just jump off the ledge and die and return to a Medical Center. That's far easier than retracing your steps.

 

Bear in mind that when "exploring" you don't know any of this. You don't know where the thing is if it exists at all. You surely don't know that jumping on some boxes, then a shelf, then an awning, then waiting half an hour for a blimp you've never seen before, etc., etc., etc. will wind up with you finding a Datacron. I maintain that NO ONE EVER would find a Datacron in a location like that without help.

 

"It's called exploring." Yeah, right!

[ninjonxb]

Seriously? Have you (or anyone else here) ever randomly "explored" a planet and just happened upon a Datacron? (Well, as I said, I have one time, so it IS possible.) Here's a typical Datacron "exploration."

 

Walk through an area deep underground, pull a mob of five and take them out. Then jump up on some random boxes, one to another until you are on top of a shelf. This will take a dozen tries because you will fall off quite a few times, so you have to be persistent. Also, the mob will re-spawn so you may have to take them out a few times. Jump from the shelf to the top of an awning, another near-impossible feat. Now just stand there and within half an hour or so a flying dirigible will just happen by. Jump on that (without falling on the floor and dying) and travel in this blimp thingie to a high location in the building where you walk along a ledge, jump over several cracks (hoping not to die) and then jump down on a scaffolding and inch along a ledge. At the end of the platform will be the Datacron.

 

So grab it and then reverse the process, or, better yet, just jump off the ledge and die and return to a Medical Center. That's far easier than retracing your steps.

 

Bear in mind that when "exploring" you don't know any of this. You don't know where the thing is if it exists at all. You surely don't know that jumping on some boxes, then a shelf, then an awning, then waiting half an hour for a blimp you've never seen before, etc., etc., etc. will wind up with you finding a Datacron. I maintain that NO ONE EVER would find a Datacron in a location like that without help.

 

"It's called exploring." Yeah, right!

 

Most of the Datacrons are easy to see if you are keeping your eyes open and along normal paths (visibly). The tricky part is figuring out how to get to it.

[Niklarus]

As an example, how are you ever going to find a Datacron without a guide? I have stumbled upon one so far and most of them are in such obscure, hard to get to places as to make them effectively invisible. .

 

The only truly, TRULY easy ones that I've found thus far have been the 3 on Korriban. Those ones are practically right out in the open for any idiot *cough*me*cough* to find. Oh, and there's on a beach on Ord Mantell guarded by a level 7 elite. If you have a companion by the time you go for it, it's easy enough to drop him and get the datacron.

 

For every other one, I've needed a guide or blind luck. Mostly guides, as luck is not a friend of mine. *shrug*

[MSchuyler]

Most of the Datacrons are easy to see if you are keeping your eyes open and along normal paths (visibly). The tricky part is figuring out how to get to it.

 

So you just randomly came across the one in my explanation above, did you? It's a real one. I didn't just make it up. Here's another one:

 

Okara Droid Factory - On the Main Level of the droid factory go to the far West elevator that leads to the Assembly Line Group Area. Go down the elevator. In the group area look for the droid conveyors and drop down onto the first one to the right, then down onto the floor from there. Inside the nearest conveyor support pillar @ (-1023, 1515) is an opening to a shaft-way that drops down onto the pipe that holds the Datacron. It's the 2nd Conveyor North of the passage you entered into the conveyor room.

 

So you will just randomly stumble across this while "exploring," right?

 

First find the elevator to Cave Under Tree on the Tomb map, the location is (-547, -2172). Take the elevator down and travel straight through to the far end of the room. The glowing cube is there with a quest reticule above it. Before the Datacron is a machine that is powered by 4 Rakata Cubes. Rakata Cubes are found all over Belsavis. They spawn at random hidden locations. Three of the locations:

◾Minimum Security (-154, -45) up on top of small hill at the base of a tree.

◾High Security section (-2790, 955) on another hill near base of tree and beside giant orange beet.

◾The Tomb (-703, -1962) on a hill next to a rock ledge.

 

You must place four cubes into the machine and then activate it in order to get inside the Datacron. The Rakata cubes are grey/white and are slightly smaller than Datacron cubes. Also, the Rakata cubes do not glow.

 

You'll just kind of automatically know all these requirements and will randomly stumble across the cave and take the elevator while "exploring," right?

[OddballEasyEight]

Are you kidding me?

 

People throw hissy-fits if you dont know every single mechanic of bosses these days... and how can you know them if you dont get to play because you get kicked out for not knowing them?

 

Its a catch-22 really... you need to practice to learn the mechanics, but you cant practice because you get kicked for not knowing the mechanics :/

 

 

No, boss guides are not killing the game. They are just part of how MMO's are played nowadays... you wanna figure out all the mechanics yourself? Get in a guild that likes to do that without reading manuals.

[psandak]

It's funny, I am one of those players that does not read/watch the guides. Why? Because way back in the day (playing EverQuest) I was in a hardcore raiding guild that was frequently server first and occasional world first in taking out content. And back then it was all about trial and error, spending four hours a night six nights a week slamming our heads against a wall. There was no PTS to go to learn the fight before it was officially released, heck there were no online guides back then either, so we had no choice but to enter content blindly.

 

Nowadays, I understand the desire to be as prepared as possible, but I am usually content with just knowing the very basics of a boss fight (what abilities the boss has, and any target switches that need to happen). Beyond that, as my raid leader continues to drone on about the exact timing of every little detail, I am screaming at my screen (not talking in ventrilo), "let's go already!!!" I would rather spend that five minutes actually trying to kill the boss rather than listening to every detail that might come up.

 

Getting fully back on topic, as others have said, don't read the guides if you want to have the experience of stumbling through the trial and error process.

Edited June 5, 2013 by psandak